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Arceus Hax/Intelligence Downgrade: Compositing is bad

Oh Yes. I remember now. I was thinking of the other plates from the previous games.
The plates can be found in:
HeartGold/Soul Silver
Black and White/Black 2 and White 2
X and Y
S/M US/UM
OR/AS
Sw/Sh
And Legends Arceus

All at various locations implying there are many plates scattered across the Pokémon planet.
 
I also found another anti-feat, this time even from the games:

  • Pokémon Super Mystery Dungeon: Arceus appears when Dark Matter begins trying to take the Tree of Life to the sun, leading the other Pokémon in attempting to stop its ascent. He is able to telepathically reach the player thanks to Mewtwo and transports them to the Tree of Life's roots to confront Dark Matter. When Dark Matter regenerates itself and sends out a massive shockwave, Arceus and the other Legendary Pokémon gathered to stop the Tree of Life are immediately turned to stone. After Dark Matter is defeated, Arceus will remain at the top of Destiny Tower.
 
Well, tbf, Mystery Dungeon is one of the games that has the most contradiction to the overall cosmology, and so shouldn't scale to the main multiverse (games, anime, manga).

But I don't remember if that got accepted, so shrugs.
It's still canon. But that's definitely not Primary Canon Arceus. And events in MD has no effect on the world that the humans come from.
 
To make my overall stance clear: I support the downgrade from omniscience to nigh-omniscience. Completely disagree with the removal of Arceus' powers.
 
Well, it seems to be I did not put Arceus intelligence rating there. What is there is for Heart

Wondering how it disappeared because it's in my draft
 
Uh...

image0-30.jpg


It's easily part of the cosmology at least.
 
Arceus nature has been proven time and time again that he poses a test for humanity.
The entire arc was Arceus testing humans. Mentioned at the end. All he did was to pose a test
And I'm not sure what you mean.

Plus, he did not have his plates then. So it's a nerf anyway. Which is why Arceus getting all of them is mentioned that his "full power has returned".
No, he did have his plates when he conducted the test. Absorbed them in an earlier chapter.

And the point is that Arceus was explicitly disappointed with humanity, but after seeing the results of the test gained some faith in it again due to seeing Gold bond with his Pokémon. If he were omniscient, he would have known the exact nature of humanity to begin with and also have known that the very event that gave him faith would happen. So he would never have been disappointed.
I.e. an omniscient entity never changes its mind, because it always has the correct opinion to begin with, but Arceus does.
 
Nigh-Omniscient is for his Avatar while his True Form is Omniscient, right? Or am I missing something?
 
Nigh-Omniscient is for his Avatar while his True Form is Omniscient, right? Or am I missing something?


……わたしのぶんしんを あなたにたくします
......I leave my ぶんしん with you (fifth scan explains)
ねがわくば よりちかくで
ともにせかいをみせてあげてください

I wish to be closer to you
Please show the world with us.
 
It appears that we can mostly at least agree that the Intelligence Section of Arceus could do with some degree of sprucing up, as even Sniper admitted that Arceus's proper intelligence section isn't there, and rather it's the heart, correct?

As for this whole Primary vs Secondary debacle, I understand the idea that X canon takes precedence over Y canon, but what constitutes Primary Canon and what doesn't here? Evidently, it's not just Games as Primary, as Mystery Dungeon is being waived away as secondary. Can a List of Primary Canon sources be produced?
 
It appears that we can mostly at least agree that the Intelligence Section of Arceus could do with some degree of sprucing up, as even Sniper admitted that Arceus's proper intelligence section isn't there, and rather it's the heart, correct?

As for this whole Primary vs Secondary debacle, I understand the idea that X canon takes precedence over Y canon, but what constitutes Primary Canon and what doesn't here? Evidently, it's not just Games as Primary, as Mystery Dungeon is being waived away as secondary. Can a List of Primary Canon sources be produced?
Primary canon is the generational games. As in, the main series. RBY/GSC/RSE, etc. Secondary to them is the anime and manga. Then it would come spin-off games.

Games that directly connect to the main games (via link-cable) like Colosseum, XD and PkmnGo (vis Let's Go) are considered primary. While games that can transfer pokémon to the main (like the Ranger games and Conquest) via Mystery Gift would be secondary at best.
 
It appears that we can mostly at least agree that the Intelligence Section of Arceus could do with some degree of sprucing up, as even Sniper admitted that Arceus's proper intelligence section isn't there, and rather it's the heart, correct?
Arceus' intelligence is fine as shown by what I presented above. Sniper is just confused because they seem to forget they didn't edit the profile based off their draft, that's why it doesn't match up.

As for this whole Primary vs Secondary debacle, I understand the idea that X canon takes precedence over Y canon, but what constitutes Primary Canon and what doesn't here? Evidently, it's not just Games as Primary, as Mystery Dungeon is being waived away as secondary. Can a List of Primary Canon sources be produced?
Primary canon is the stuff Game Freak made, secondary canon is the stuff made by others under the guidance of The Pokémon Company and Game Freak staff.
 
Yes. I forgot to include the intelligence rating for Arceus. What exists on his page right now is for the Heart
 
Super Mystery Dungeon makes references to past MD games, so nothing really changes on that regard.
 
Yes. I forgot to include the intelligence rating for Arceus. What exists on his page right now is for the Heart
Nothing was forgotten. I was the one who edited the profile, remember. It wasn't based on your draft.


True form Arceus and avatar Arceus share the same mind. The belief that wasn't the case was based off a lack of evidence for or against, but now that we have actually encountered the true form of Arceus and not just working off myths and legends, we have gained evidence to suggest the avatar is the type used the interact with lower realities and not a seperate entity.


……わたしのぶんしんを あなたにたくします
......I leave my ぶんしん with you (fifth scan explains)
ねがわくば よりちかくで
ともにせかいをみせてあげてください

I wish to be closer to you
Please show the world with us.
 
First and Foremost, you're arguing under the idea that the Avatar of the being who is everything and everyone and everyehere is simply incapable of being able to access the powers of other Pokémon that are a part of him through his avatar. It is simply impossible, even when it's mentioned he can do so. Okay
Also a no, I'm afraid. Merely being the source of a power doesn't mean that the user gets access to any application whatsoever of it, the burden of proof is on the one making the outlandish claim, and it's far from the standard to grant creator deities all powers in their verse to them.
Good. Because there are 3 things you missed
1. Each plate has the essence of a type
2. It's mentioned that the powers of the plates are shared amongst all Pokémon
3. Arceus spamming various moves corresponding to the plate he has is proof, as well as being able to use water manipulation that can go to the extend of defying the natural order of things, after accessing and using splash plate

Another argument was also brought up based on the plates being what granted the Pokémon moves and abilities, but as DT also said, such statements don't even lean that way over the plates being merely an energy source, going back to the previous point of that not being usable evidence for this either
The plates are not even an energy source, as the Psychic plate literally has the essence of psychic energy. Not psychic energy itself, the essence of it. Of course you're free to show me rock energy and ground energy, or even fighting energy here.

The Draco plate has the essence of dragons, encompassing all dragon Pokemon. Heck, a stick in Pokémon has the powers of all water Pokémon

And this leads me back to the first statement I made. Insignificant things acquiring everything when God himself having context behind having them is being limited for absolutely no reason at all.
As DT said, no, creation entities are very common and they don't have every power in the setting by default, this sets a bad precedent as well.
Good thing you said "by default" because there's context as to why Arceus has them.
Probably the worst argument of the bunch, not only is this misusing scans (that are even noted to not be factual per-say in-universe) to make a false narrative as in reality there's nothing to correlate the example used (Regidrago, which is also dubious in-universe anyways) to the energy of the plates, as DT explains in the thread, there's hardly any precedent for a sufficiently strong Pokémon having every single move of its own type, straight up headcanon aside, especially as there's several attributes necessary beyond just a type to use a move or ability as DT also said.
Good. Because we're talking about giving Arceus powers. No one is giving him any physiology here. No one gave Arceus inorganic physiology because Cryo is made of ice. Is that a power?
1. All moves
2. Powers used in anime, manga, games. Telekinesis, mind hax, status effect inducement, such. We're not giving Arceus Incorporeality because Cursola is non physical, but Arceus will still acquire curse manipulation because he's using the powers of Arceus, Ghost type powers
3. An erroneous error I saw before Iamunanimousinthat made the thread to start messing things up, were exactly the things DT mentioned and they're not there. We're giving Arceus powers. No one has given Arceus physiology stuff here.
Abilities, I don't mind abilities not being there, and it's not as if Arceus hasn't shown to use them without having them particular. Ie. Being able to inflict status effects regardless of Type which is literally a more expansive and broken version of Corrosion, because he can
We also don't grant powers just because a character is called "omnipotent", as it's a blatant NLF for our purposes, which is why we generally restrict to stuff characters have been shown to do in the first place.
No one is giving Arceus powers just because he's omnipotent.
Also sets a bad precedent as said by DT, we don't grant powers to a character as if they were inherent aspects of them by just summoning/creating something with a power already displayed in the setting, at best that'd need a separate section on the page, especially to avoid compositing as there's not sufficient evidence to combine every P&A in the series at the same time to Arceus.
If I create something with the power to manipulate water, I can't do so? Why?

Worst analogy ever, a scientist creating a supercomputer doesn't mean he can fulfill its capabilities.
Good, Arceus creating Pikachu to use lightning doesn't mean he can't do it on his own, he literally has the Zap Plate. He simply decided to create various Pokémon to test the player. That's all.

You'll only make sense if the move requires a specific physiology. I simply do not see the reason why Arceus won't be able to use, say, all psychic powers, because it doesn't need any specific physiology to use at all.

And don't tell me Unown exists. Unown depend on the perception and dreams of those who use it. With Unown, one can do anything and be anything within the context of Pokémon as long as they believe. They can't do much on their own.

Scientists were able to literally create one Pokémon with all verse powers at the time with the intelligence God himself gave them and God himself can't use them? Even with the context that he has these powers
----

Apparently even after @DontTalkDT explicitly declined this, this eventually got passed again in this CRT later on. The problem? I've noticed that DT hasn't commented in that thread at all, and that combined with how lower-ranking staff were clearly willing to accept this nonsense over Arceus on the past CRT leans me to believe this isn't accurate, and so here I am bringing up the topic again to see if we should either at best rewrite our site standards or just downgrade Arceus. After reading the OP, it also appears that it's just reiterating the same stuff as the above with just an extra statement saying that the plates have "every type's powers", which is still vague and with the above stuff still rendering questionable the premise, plus a few other things that fall apart without its other questionable premises passing.
Vague?

I have all type's powers. Funny how they go on to ignore the first sentence as having the power of all things residing in it probably because it doesn't support their argument.

Well...... Give me another interpretation of a Pokémon having all Type's powers.
I'd also advocate for a Discussion Rule on the matter as it's clear this is controversial and keeps going back and forth, regardless of conclusion.
Good. Because I'm tired of this
 
Do you have any evidence to suggest against the conclusion I came to based off the evidence presented in Pokémon Legends: Arceus?
I just feel Arceus should have intelligence rating, going by his other appearance he doesn't seem to just be a puppet
 
Okay. So I’m reading through this thread and wanted to share my thoughts on this matter, more or less on some things that I believe need comments.

No, Arceus isn't omniscient, not only he was unaware where the Jewel of Life was, and even required Ash to yell at him to remind him he already had it even after they time traveled to get it back to him,
I don’t really quite agree with this? For2 reasons at least, this argument isn’t quite so sound.

To start with, using Jewel of Life in the first place. Know this was already said above, so I’d more or less be just repeating the earlier discussion, but Jewel of Life sets a very bad example of depicting Arceus for being Plot Induced Stupidity ridden and glossing over Arceus’s capabilities in order for this movie to make any kind of sense in storyline, which PIS generally covers in definition. I saw above that it was mentioned Arceus was purposely depowered in this movie (will comment about this more a little later) from where he normally is in order for the movie to be able to happen. If that’s the case, then why should we even take this “anti-feat” as anything more than a grain of salt? It would become apparent that this inconsistency is a minor outlier compared to Arceus’s usual portrayal, and thus shouldn’t really be considered viable evidence of a legitimate anti feat.

Besides that, another thing too that seems problematic with this is that Arceus was also not complete when Ash and the others came back from the past (since Arceus at the time point still lacked the plates making the jewel) and was unaffected by the changes in time. But this is only a minor thing to point out.

there's also the matter that as DT said, the concept of knowledge and knowledge per-say just aren't inherently related and DT has even brought up a case to make a example of that, so not only this is an exaggeration to say the least, it's setting a bad precedent while ignoring beraucrat input.

Looking at that example made to argue this, there’s a problem when comparing that to Arceus’s case here. Unless I’m mistaken (since I don’t know the series that example made comes from, so correct me if I’m wrong), Noah isn’t a character of abstraction. She simply only has the ability to create and manipulate concepts, like knowledge. It should probably go without saying, but if that is the case, it’s not really comparable with this kind of instance.

It’s one thing to say that a character can create a concept that doesn’t get applied to themselves without further backing for that. Literally being that concept or having it as an aspect of your existence/abstraction, is another thing. Arceus is supposed to be the latter, not the former.

Arceus doesn’t just simply create these concepts, those concepts are aspects of himself through the Creation and Lake Trios. In Uxies case, Knowledge is a part of him. While the general sentiment that this example was made for is something that’s agreeable on, if it becomes the point that a character is abstract through creating concepts that are a part of themselves, then it becomes that much more difficult to s disconnect the 2 rather than just simply seeing them as one and the same. Being knowledge means you should logistically have it.

The Cosmic Awareness thing I was sent about Arceus is also poor evidence, not only it's explicit on Arceus just watching over the present, the idea of Arceus having already seen all events from the start to the end not only is way more assumptive, it's also contradicted by the above.

I already made my comment on Jewel of Life above, which isn’t really that much different than what was likely already said, but on this particular point, I’m failing to see why this would mean only watching present time.

Especially since, after all, Dialga, who Arceus is > then, has witnessed events throughout time and certainly isn’t limited to just the present. Even in Jewel of Life. Dialga knew precisely what point in time to send Ash’s group back to, and the moment their work in the past finished up, he brought them back to the future.

This specific scan though may be poor evidence, but better ones than this, like my point on Dialga, should exist.

At best I'd advocate for a Nigh-Omniscient rating from stuff like this and the recontextualization on the CA not being that good, which in fact was a previous rating Arceus had.
Now I may or may not be too late, so I’ll just clarify that I’m more or less neutral to Arceus only getting Nigh-Omniscience. I just don’t like the specific arguments used against Omniscience, but if this is something most agree on, I’ll let the chips fall where they may.

My bigger concern though, which I definitely disagree with, is the case on his abilities. Before I reply to specific replies in particular, I want to ask this. Why are the arguments about the plates the only main argument used for supporting Arceus having all powers? Because this definitely didn’t used to be the case back then.

The plates, as far back as I remember, were only used as one of the arguments for it, not the sole argument. In fact, the larger reasoning for all powers being given, as I remember it, came from a thread TheRealCalHoward made a while ago when he was still here, for both Arceus and Mew, having all moves (a reminder btw that Mew being capable of using all moves, but not Arceus, sounds ridiculous). Mews argument was one thing, but for Arceus, it was agreed on him having the verses abilities not just because of the plates, but because all Pokémon were considered parts of Arceus like the Creation and Lake Trios are, and by extension, he should have their powers too like he does with the latters. I see no one in this discussion primarily talking about this, only about the Plates.

But even with just going off of the plates, some stuff pointed out against this doesn’t make sense.
Also a no, I'm afraid. Merely being the source of a power doesn't mean that the user gets access to any application whatsoever of it, the burden of proof is on the one making the outlandish claim, and it's far from the standard to grant creator deities all powers in their verse to them.

Another argument was also brought up based on the plates being what granted the Pokémon moves and abilities, but as DT also said, such statements don't even lean that way over the plates being merely an energy source, going back to the previous point of that not being usable evidence for this either.
we literally have characters scaling to other's hax and such simply by having the same energy, like ki users in dragon ball, or sharing a physiology, and yet being the source of a power and literally it's creator doesn't? fire type pokemon use fire moves because they have fire energy, that's it, some may have unique moves but is all fire energy in the end
If I could upvote this particular point more than once, I would.

Dragon Ball is one of several cases here where everyone and their mother is given powers for sharing the same energy source, as well as those who get powers by sharing a physiology. Why is this somehow an exception and not Arceus? You should already have seen me raising the point on all Pokémon being apart of Arceus.

And on this note about a Pokemons move and a typing energy having correlation to each other, Hoopa and the Clash of Ages directly showcases this is in fact the case when Ashs friends needed to use 3 different attacks of those types (Water Pulse, Flamethrower & Sand Attack) to convert them into the 3 forces of nature to create the Prison Bottle for Hoopa.

As DT said, no, creation entities are very common and they don't have every power in the setting by default, this sets a bad precedent as well.

This particular line of justification is obviously bad, but as I remember it, Arceus definitely wasn't accepted to have all powers based on this reasoning, so I don't understand why this was brought up. Better context exists.

also, sniper brought a new translation that said that it granted "every type's power" which leans more to the abilities themselves,

This reminds me of something before actually. Wasn't there a translation of text provided some time ago about Legends specifying Arceus also had "infinite powers" as well?

plus in the anime arceus used the splash plate explicitly to use a water move so yeah, more evidence on that

This point also reminded me to also mention here too that in Journeys, Arceus's Flame Plate literally gives Heatran new abilities that it does not otherwise possess on it's own. An entirely new form to start with, as well as the ability to tear open the rift in Space-Time.
First, the Arceus movie barely hangs onto it's status of being canon by a string, we all know of the meteorite and the electric attacks and the silver water, but the fact of the fact that besides Arceus been affected by things far from it's cosmic levels of powers, even the plates have been pretty much retconned.

As not only does the general canon seem to be that multiple such plates lie about with how often they are found. Arceus is never in any urgeny of finding them and seems to more use them as a way to call to it (though it doesn't have to answer). But even in the anime itself, the plates that were used to create the Jewel of Life were also located in other places at the time the jewel was missing. That being the Draco and Spalsh Plates being a plot point in an anime episode that took place earlier than the movie should, as well as the power of the Splash Plate being used to seal Hoopa

Just to comment on this, im 99% certain it's been long accepted here that every universe in the cosmology has their own copy of the plates while Arceus has his own set, so im not particularly seeing why this point on the plates would somehow be an issue that coincides with the movie?

But more importantly, Jewel of Life is the one and only piece of media Ash and his friends have met Arceus outside of Journeys (besides Clash of Ages, but that only applies to Ash, Dawn and Brock were not present in that movie, and even then, Ash remembers Arceus in Clash of Ages as well). Arceus never appears or even gets direcrly mentioned in the anime until Journeys, and when he does make his debut, Ash, Dawn and Brock remember him and reference having encountered him before. The only way this is possible to be the case is with Jewel of Life being canon to the anime.

What was the Flame plate doing on Earth in Journeys if Arceus took them all with him to his own realm? It means whatever happened in JOL has no effect on the series itself
In addition to the other plates lying around long before Arceus decided to sacrifice them to make the JOL.
About Hoopa, I've watched the movie several times and I don't remember where they used Splash Plate. What happened is that Arceus gave humans the power to be able to call upon the 3 forces of Nature, and that's what they used to repair the bottle
See above please. Also, please look at what I bolded out. You actually just pretty much answered the question on how the plates could've appeared. The plates used to make the Prison Bottle appeared in Clash of Ages because Ghris specifically requested their use when first making the battle, as flashbacks showed.

And because Clash of Ages shows that people in Arche Valley, like Ghris, Barza and Mary, revere Arceus, are able to communicate with him and receive power from him in return, it's evidence that Arceus is willing to answer human prayers to answer their needs. Ghris needed something to restrain Hoopa's powers from going out of control, so because it's canon that Ghris is one of the people that can communicate with Arceus, it's very likely that Arceus personally bestowed to him the plates that were used for the creation of the Prison Bottle.

And if Superman were getting blitzed by Taxi’s in that movie, I’d say the author’s intent is irrelevant.

Just to comment on this bit, because I saw quite some back and forth on it, im getting the feeling people here don't quite know how Author Intent works, because this isn't how we apply and don't apply it.

Disregarding Author Intent, or things like "Death of the Author", are only done when their word on their particular media does not follow or match up with what is presented in their particular works, so what actually gets applied takes precedence over their words against that. So if I stated something like Character X is FTL and can nuke planets, but the actual media displays Character X being outsped by supersonic speeds and incapable of destroying things on a scale much below that of planets, the media showing he's not as strong as I claimed takes more priority as it contradicts my statement.

Their word, however, becomes validated and acceptable when their media coincides with what's claimed and supports it.

The writer of Jewel of Life contextualizing why Arceus as nerfed in the movie, with the purpose of him being limited to therefore make the movie's storyline possible in the first place, doesn't fall under DoTA. The writer isn't giving a claim about Arceus or his capabilities that the film says otherwise about to contradict their explanation. Nothing contradicts the writer's word on that happening, if anything, the opposite is what's going on since the movie displays exactly what the author is bringing context for.

Well, tbf, Mystery Dungeon is one of the games that has the most contradiction to the overall cosmology, and so shouldn't scale to the main multiverse (games, anime, manga).

But I don't remember if that got accepted, so shrugs.

Not to mention, real quick, didn't Arceus in Mystery Dungeon immediately become aware of an entire timeline being erased from existence w/ Primal Dialga, Celebi and Grovyle and then stopped it instantly?

Just wanted to point this out.

Anyway, those are my comments. To clarify, im more or less neutral on making the intelligence nigh omniscient, I just mainly didn't agree with the particular arguments against it being used.

But I am definitely disagreeing with removing any of Arceus's powers.
 
The plates, as far back as I remember, were only used as one of the arguments for it, not the sole argument. In fact, the larger reasoning for all powers being given, as I remember it, came from a thread TheRealCalHoward made a while ago when he was still here, for both Arceus and Mew, having all moves (a reminder btw that Mew being capable of using all moves, but not Arceus, sounds ridiculous). Mews argument was one thing, but for Arceus, it was agreed on him having the verses abilities not just because of the plates, but because all Pokémon were considered parts of Arceus like the Creation and Lake Trios are, and by extension, he should have their powers too like he does with the latters. I see no one in this discussion primarily talking about this, only about the Plates.
Since when did all Pokemon become considered parts of Arceus? I see the Evidence for the Creation Trio, that makes sense, and the Evidence for Lake Trio, while I disagree with that making them still inherently contribute to Arceus as a existence, is still there. But how does Big Bird Yveltal apply to Arceus? What about our little Ralts we just hatched out of a Egg? How's she gonna be a Part of Arceus? Can we get scans here, because this is the first I've ever even remotely seen this argument.
 
Since when did all Pokemon become considered parts of Arceus? I see the Evidence for the Creation Trio, that makes sense, and the Evidence for Lake Trio, while I disagree with that making them still inherently contribute to Arceus as a existence, is still there. But how does Big Bird Yveltal apply to Arceus? What about our little Ralts we just hatched out of a Egg? How's she gonna be a Part of Arceus? Can we get scans here, because this is the first I've ever even remotely seen this argument.

Id have to try refinding the thread since with Cal not being here its not as easy to search it up, but IIRC, it came from the hiker quote on how all pokemon were once considered apsects of Arceus because they were all one with the Original Spirit.

I'll try finding the thread though where this was used to make a definitive statement.
 
Id have to try refinding the thread since with Cal not being here its not as easy to search it up, but IIRC, it came from the hiker quote on how all pokemon were once considered apsects of Arceus because they were all one with the Original Spirit.

I'll try finding the thread though where this was used to make a definitive statement.
If you could produce the thread in question and/or the relevant evidence, it would very much be appreciated.
 
Since when did all Pokemon become considered parts of Arceus? I see the Evidence for the Creation Trio, that makes sense, and the Evidence for Lake Trio, while I disagree with that making them still inherently contribute to Arceus as a existence, is still there. But how does Big Bird Yveltal apply to Arceus? What about our little Ralts we just hatched out of a Egg? How's she gonna be a Part of Arceus? Can we get scans here, because this is the first I've ever even remotely seen this argument.
Before creation, all existence was One. Then his Avatar was manifested from chaos and everything was born via emanations.


Within the Heart time and space was mixed, and people and Pokémon were the same existence. The period of time before Arceus was born, which was at the Heart of Chaos. They shared the same Heart, the same Awareness from which they were born. With Arceus being a manifestation of the Heart, and the world expanding as the Heart enriches. Ie. All existence is part of the Heart


The Legend Plate has the Essence of all Creation. Giving Arceus the power of every type in existence. This is talking about the Avatar of the Heart
 
Ah, nevermind, I just didn't spell Cal's username correctly in the search bar lol. It's this one.

Keep in mind this happened a while ago before Journeys and Legends Arceus gave a lot more new details and evidences of stuff.
Thank you for Providing this evidence. I will retract my opposition to Arceus's Power's for now, though I am admittedly still somewhat skeptical in general on certain things.
 
I'm getting a feeling I'll have to agree with the op in removing the abilities for Arceus then
I'm still more on disagreement
 
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