Pokemon - Arceus and his Plate abilities?

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I want to understand the reasoning behind Arceus possessing every ability and power set in the Pokemon franchise despite not depicted as having those.

For sake of ease I'm going to define some terms as to get

Moves: as in Pokemon Moves, such as flamethrower, tackle, psychic etc.
Ability: as in Pokemon abilities like speed boost, shield dust, etc.
Power: an ability that's not a specific move or pokemon ability

From the profile, it comes from the Plates being said to be this:

"A stone tablet imbued with the essence of all creation."

However this statement is not compete. The full description is this:

A stone tablet imbued with the essence of all creation. When used on a certain Pokémon, it allows that Pokémon to gain the power of every type there is.

The very statement says that Arceus uses the plate to gain the power of the types. A reference to his ability that allows him to change his type.

The jump from taking this statement to claim that Arceus has access to all Pokemon abilities (he's only been shown to have one ability and no others), and the powers of every character, being, and pokemon is far fetched and not supported enough by the source material.

Arceus is even getting abilities from other Pokemon's dex entries.

Canonically there are moves that Arceus cannot use or have access to.
Canonically Arceus has never been shown to possess any other abilities.

But in my experience, any weakness or limitation that applies to Arceus gets waved away as either game mechanics OR PIS. Which is interesting because it seems that certain game mechanics and plot points get added to the story. It has come to the point where the profile is no longer recording what has been shown, but hypotheticals and fan interpretations.

The incomplete statement, "A stone tablet imbued with the essence of all creation" has been interpreted that the plates are synonymous with everything in creation. However when coupled, with other statements, this interpretation is an exaggeration.

"When the universe was created, its shards became this Plate."

The plates were created at the start of the universe from pieces of the universe. Essence is the building blocks of something. The substance that makes it what it is. The plates being made at the creation of the universe form shards of the universe, would account for the statement that is imbued with the essence of all creation as it was literally forged from the creation of the unvierse.

Also there are other statements:

"The powers of Plates are shared among Pokémon."

This statement has been used to say that Pokémon get their powers directly from the plates. I believe this interpretation is an exaggeration. It's a reference that when Pokémon hold the plates, they get a power-up.

Here is also another statement that contradicts this:

"The power of defeated giants infuses this Plate."

The defeated giants in this line most likely references the Creation Trio. Their power is infused with the plates. If the power of Pokémon comes solely from the plates, then that would mean the Creation Trio's power comes from the plates. This is a paradox because the Creation Trio existed before the creation of the universe and the Plates were created after the universe was made as they were made from the shards of the Universe. There are other pokemon that existed before the creation of the universe aka the Lake Trio, if the description on their profiles is accurate that they pre-date reality.

The plates were created from the shards of the universe and infused with the power of the Creation Trio. For the idea that all pokemon get their powers from the plate, the plates would have to predate pokemon and they don't.

Here is another contradiction:

"The rightful bearer of a Plate draws from the Plate it holds."
"It gathers power from the Plates, listening for the flute's song."

Arceus draws power form the plates. If all pokemon get ALL their powers from the plates, that means Arceus gets his powers from the plates as well. However that is another paradox. Arceus created the creation trio and lake trio before the plates existed. This means that not all his power comes from the plate and that he has his own power, and then draws a different power from the plates.

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And just another argument that I see a lot to claim Arceus can do anything that anyone in the pokemon franchise can do, is that Arceus created the universe therefore he should be able to do anything in his universe.

This isn't true:

A. Dark Matter was created by the negative emotions of pokemon. He was not created directly by Arceus. There is no reason to assume that Arceus can do what he does when
B. Man-made pokemon exist. These are pokemon created by humans, not created by nature and therefore not created directly by Arceus
C. Semi-man-made pokemon exist. These are pokemon that form from human consequences, such a banette forming from a doll.
D. Regional Variantions exist and pokemon go extinct. This means there is a form of natural selection within the pokemon world. Arceus doesn't hand create each pokemon, but they arrive naturally from nature.
E. Humans are able to create devices and plans in order to harm, trap and control Arceus and as well his creation trio which were directly created by him. The universe has an independent progression from Arceus, he does not dictate every second. This is then solidfied in the Jewel of Life, where Arceus appeared to stop a meteorite from destroying the earth. If the universe is just an aspect of Arceus, why does he constantly have to intervene to control and stop threats such as Hoopa's space distortion?
F. There are places that haven't been directly stated to be created by Arceus or the Creation Trio such as the Ultra Space.

The pokemon world has a life of it's own and abilities, powers, pokemon, events happen independent to Arceus. Why should he upscale to those without direct showings that he does?

In conclusion:

The lore around the plates does not justify:

A. Arceus getting moves that he canonically cannot do.
B. Arceus getting the abilities that he canonically does not have.
C. Arceus getting powers that he has not been shown to have or directly scale to.

 

[Sniper670]

I want to understand the reasoning behind Arceus possessing every ability and power set in the Pokemon franchise despite not depicted as having those.

For sake of ease I'm going to define some terms as to get

Moves: as in Pokemon Moves, such as flamethrower, tackle, psychic etc.
Ability: as in Pokemon abilities like speed boost, shield dust, etc.
Power: an ability that's not a specific move or pokemon ability

From the profile, it comes from the Plates being said to be this:

"A stone tablet imbued with the essence of all creation."

However this statement is not compete. The full description is this:

A stone tablet imbued with the essence of all creation. When used on a certain Pokémon, it allows that Pokémon to gain the power of every type there is.

The very statement says that Arceus uses the plate to gain the power of the types. A reference to his ability that allows him to change his type.

The jump from taking this statement to claim that Arceus has access to all Pokemon abilities (he's only been shown to have one ability and no others), and the powers of every character, being, and pokemon is far fetched and not supported enough by the source material.

This is nitpicking details rather than just taking the statement for what it is blatantly. Arceus gets the powers of all types because the legend plate is imbued with all of creations essence.

This isn’t a matter of only types being granted, and if it was only a matter of types being bestowed, then the legend plate wouldn’t be necessary when Arceus already has all of the individual type plates themselves.

Adding to that, “the universes shards form this plate” line gives more blatant context that the plates being imbued with all creation isn’t some exaggerated flowery text, but that parts of the cosmology literally form the plates.

Arceus is even getting abilities from other Pokemon's dex entries.

Canonically there are moves that Arceus cannot use or have access to.
Canonically Arceus has never been shown to possess any other abilities.

But in my experience, any weakness or limitation that applies to Arceus gets waved away as either game mechanics OR PIS. Which is interesting because it seems that certain game mechanics and plot points get added to the story. It has come to the point where the profile is no longer recording what has been shown, but hypotheticals and fan interpretations.

This counter argument is very interesting because if we were to take it seriously, then Arceus getting moves from the Creation Trio also wouldn’t be possible. But we know this for sure is game mechanics since Arceus has obtained their movesets before like their signature moves.

But, we can play devils advocate and not consider this point. This is the same series where the god tier being of everything somehow can’t use more than 4 moves in-game. And Arceus has never canonically appeared in the games anyway until Legends.

Not to mention, if the canon splitting isn’t applying to the god tiers, then we can also use the fact that the manga outright shows Arceus using moves that it can’t naturally learn in-game. So what are the results? These are actual game mechanics and it is not an excuse to consider it as that.

There’s a difference between considering is an in-game limitation to be….exactly that, and taking the actual plot points and lore as evidence as it reflects Arceus’s actual capabilities

The incomplete statement, "A stone tablet imbued with the essence of all creation" has been interpreted that the plates are synonymous with everything in creation. However when coupled, with other statements, this interpretation is an exaggeration.

"When the universe was created, its shards became this Plate."

The plates were created at the start of the universe from pieces of the universe. Essence is the building blocks of something. The substance that makes it what it is. The plates being made at the creation of the universe form shards of the universe, would account for the statement that is imbued with the essence of all creation as it was literally forged from the creation of the unvierse.

The argument against this is by specifying aspects of the verse literally become the plates? That’s proving the point made that it’s literal.

Also there are other statements:

"The powers of Plates are shared among Pokémon."

This statement has been used to say that Pokémon get their powers directly from the plates. I believe this interpretation is an exaggeration. It's a reference that when Pokémon hold the plates, they get a power-up.

First of all, it says powers. Plural. What do powers commonly indicate? Abilities.

And secondly, this argument is basically just headcanon. We know Pokémon types come from Arceus since types originated from him. Just because the plates can be used as a power boost for Pokémon doesn’t mean that’s all that they do.

Here is also another statement that contradicts this:

"The power of defeated giants infuses this Plate."

The defeated giants in this line most likely references the Creation Trio. Their power is infused with the plates. If the power of Pokémon comes solely from the plates, then that would mean the Creation Trio's power comes from the plates. This is a paradox because the Creation Trio existed before the creation of the universe and the Plates were created after the universe was made as they were made from the shards of the Universe. There are other pokemon that existed before the creation of the universe aka the Lake Trio, if the description on their profiles is accurate that they pre-date reality.

This line of argumentation is pure speculation. Nothing in the lore has even explicitly proven that “defeated giants” refers to the Creation Trio or Lake Trio. At all. It’s vague for a reason

And the fact that both trios were explicitly used after their creation to form the multiverse, which conflicts with this argument as it suggests Arceus doesn’t control his own creations (and no, don’t even try it, because the Red Chain disagrees with you), it makes far more sense from what is given that they are not the giants. Arceus needing to even defeat them doesn’t make sense in the first place.

The plates were created from the shards of the universe and infused with the power of the Creation Trio. For the idea that all pokemon get their powers from the plate, the plates would have to predate pokemon and they don't.

Here is another contradiction:

"The rightful bearer of a Plate draws from the Plate it holds."
"It gathers power from the Plates, listening for the flute's song."

Arceus draws power form the plates. If all pokemon get ALL their powers from the plates, that means Arceus gets his powers from the plates as well. However that is another paradox. Arceus created the creation trio and lake trio before the plates existed. This means that not all his power comes from the plate and that he has his own power, and then draws a different power from the plates.

I’m not understanding what’s contradicting or what’s a paradox from this?

The plates are parts of Arceus to begin with. Of course they have his powers in them. What part of this is a paradox in the first place?

Your argument here also assumes that Arceus’s entire arsenal of abilities are stored in the plates, something not proven and something you didn’t provide evidence for. You assumed.

And why would you? It’s not like Dialgas time powers or Palkias space powers come from the plates.

-------

And just another argument that I see a lot to claim Arceus can do anything that anyone in the pokemon franchise can do, is that Arceus created the universe therefore he should be able to do anything in his universe.

This isn't true:

A. Dark Matter was created by the negative emotions of pokemon. He was not created directly by Arceus.

You basically answered your own question here. Emotions. Negative emotions. Who rules emotions? Mesprit. Who created Mesprit? Arceus.

There is no reason to assume that Arceus can do what he does when
B. Man-made pokemon exist. These are pokemon created by humans, not created by nature and therefore not created directly by Arceus

Do you realize what your saying here? These man made Pokémon are being made by things that Arceus created. Do you think a Pokémon like Magearna isn’t created by metal?

C. Semi-man-made pokemon exist. These are pokemon that form from human consequences, such a banette forming from a doll.

This argument only exists if you take Pokédex entries like this at face value. But we don’t. You should know by now our policy on the Pokédex, it’s treated case by case.

D. Regional Variantions exist and pokemon go extinct. This means there is a form of natural selection within the pokemon world. Arceus doesn't hand create each pokemon, but they arrive naturally from nature.

How…does this change the fact that the environment and nature itself is part of Arceus’s creation? Regional variants like Alolan and Galarian mon come from how the environment influence them in the region. The region itself is still made by Arceus as everything else is.

E. Humans are able to create devices and plans in order to harm, trap and control Arceus and as well his creation trio which were directly created by him. The universe has an independent progression from Arceus, he does not dictate every second. This is then solidfied in the Jewel of Life, where Arceus appeared to stop a meteorite from destroying the earth. If the universe is just an aspect of Arceus, why does he constantly have to intervene to control and stop threats such as Hoopa's space distortion?

The site doesn’t give Arceus abilities from human weapons so I don’t see the point of this argument. The second point is a PIS, and the third point is irrelevant to this whole thing. Arceus didn’t “have” to intervene with Hoopa, he did it because he wanted Hoopa to learn its mistakes.

And yes, this is canon. Journeys anime shows this. When people and Pokémon undergo problems they don’t know the solution for, Arceus will give them hints to solve them, but it actively wants people and Pokémon to overcome problems on there own.

F. There are places that haven't been directly stated to be created by Arceus or the Creation Trio such as the Ultra Space.

Each region has different lores and philosophies, doesn’t mean this is a contradiction. The lack of an outright statement =/= contradiction.
And Ultra Space is nothing different when it leads to all worlds in the multiverse anyway and have members of the creation trio roaming it.

The pokemon world has a life of it's own and abilities, powers, pokemon, events happen independent to Arceus. Why should he upscale to those without direct showings that he does?

In conclusion:

The lore around the plates does not justify:

A. Arceus getting moves that he canonically cannot do.
B. Arceus getting the abilities that he canonically does not have.
C. Arceus getting powers that he has not been shown to have or directly scale to.

The main justification for all powers has always been because of the fact that everything is an aspect of Arceus. All Pokémon are parts of Arceus himself (hiker quote + origin story)

All Pokémon are aspects of Arceus and as he has the powers of the creation and lake trios for being parts of him, the same thing would go for all Pokémon

Are the plates supposed to give strong supporting evidence of this? Yes. But they are not the main or only justification for it.

The OPs argument uses a mix of a lot of nitpicking, speculation, and headcanon to argue against Arceus having all powers (which this isn’t the first time this has come up here either).

The arguments for all powers being applied are very reasonably sound and they should remain.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

This is nitpicking details rather than just taking the statement for what it is blatantly. Arceus gets the powers of all types because the legend plate is imbued with all of creations essence.

Let me demonstrate why this statement is wrong with an anology:

From a roll of fabric, a jacket, a bag, and a scarf was made. Because they were made from the roll of fabric, they all have the same essence as the roll of frabric, however just because they all come from the same roll of fabric, doesn't mean the jacket, bag, and scarf are the same.

The plates were made from the universe, but that doesn't mean that everything in the universe is part of the plates or come from it.

This isn’t a matter of only types being granted, and if it was only a matter of types being bestowed, then the legend plate wouldn’t be necessary when Arceus already has all of the individual type plates themselves.

Can you elaborate what you mean by this? Are you saying that the Legend plate is redundant?

The Legend plate exists because pokemon can't hold items in PLA nor do they have abilities. It's away for the Arceus to have his signature ability without actually having abilities or held items in the game.

Adding to that, “the universes shards form this plate” line gives more blatant context that the plates being imbued with all creation isn’t some exaggerated flowery text, but that parts of the cosmology literally form the plates.

I never said it was flowerly language. I have taken each statement as being literal. The plates are imbued with essence of all creation because they were made from the universe.

This counter argument is very interesting because if we were to take it seriously, then Arceus getting moves from the Creation Trio also wouldn’t be possible. But we know this for sure is game mechanics since Arceus has obtained their movesets before like their signature moves.

But, we can play devils advocate and not consider this point. This is the same series where the god tier being of everything somehow can’t use more than 4 moves in-game. And Arceus has never canonically appeared in the games anyway until Legends.

Not to mention, if the canon splitting isn’t applying to the god tiers, then we can also use the fact that the manga outright shows Arceus using moves that it can’t naturally learn in-game. So what are the results? These are actual game mechanics and it is not an excuse to consider it as that.

There’s a difference between considering is an in-game limitation to be….exactly that, and taking the actual plot points and lore as evidence as it reflects Arceus’s actual capabilities

I'm not sure about this argument. Arceus should get all the moves and powers he's shown to have. If he doesn't have an ability in the games but has it in the anime or manga, then he should have that recorded on his profile.

I have problem with Arceus getting abilities, move sets, and powers he has not been shown or stated to directly have.

The argument against this is by specifying aspects of the verse literally become the plates? That’s proving the point made that it’s literal.

Again, I never made the argument that it's not literal.

First of all, it says powers. Plural. What do powers commonly indicate? Abilities.

And secondly, this argument is basically just headcanon. We know Pokémon types come from Arceus since types originated from him. Just because the plates can be used as a power boost for Pokémon doesn’t mean that’s all that they do.

In the game, the plates boost the move sets. It does not give any pokemon any abilities. Arceus does not get Speed Boost by holding a plate.

Show me an example from a source material of plates doing more than just a power boost for pokemon that aren't just Arceus? Has a pokemon been able to use the plate to gain the abilities, movesets, or powers of another pokemon?

This line of argumentation is pure speculation. Nothing in the lore has even explicitly proven that “defeated giants” refers to the Creation Trio or Lake Trio. At all. It’s vague for a reason

And the fact that both trios were explicitly used after their creation to form the multiverse, which conflicts with this argument as it suggests Arceus doesn’t control his own creations (and no, don’t even try it, because the Red Chain disagrees with you), it makes far more sense from what is given that they are not the giants. Arceus needing to even defeat them doesn’t make sense in the first place.

If the giants aren't the creation trio, then that means there are beings that Arceus did not create that are responsible for creation of the plates and that there are aspects of the verse that Arceus does not embody or have power over. Therefore you cannot claim that Arceus can do whatever anyone in the verse can do.

I’m not understanding what’s contradicting or what’s a paradox from this?

The plates are parts of Arceus to begin with. Of course they have his powers in them. What part of this is a paradox in the first place?

Where in that picture does it say the plates are parts of Arceus? That also contradicts the fact that the plates were made from the universe after its creation which Arceus predates. Why would Arceus need something that is already apart of him to be created?

Your argument here also assumes that Arceus’s entire arsenal of abilities are stored in the plates, something not proven and something you didn’t provide evidence for. You assumed.

And why would you? It’s not like Dialgas time powers or Palkias space powers come from the plates.

So you agree, Pokemon do not get their powers from the Plate? Because the profile is claiming that Arceus gets the powers and all abilities of all pokemon and beings in pokemon because they all draw their power form the plates.

You basically answered your own question here. Emotions. Negative emotions. Who rules emotions? Mesprit. Who created Mesprit? Arceus.

So you're making the claim that Mesprit created Dark Matter? Do you have evidence for the source material to support that?

Do you realize what your saying here? These man made Pokémon are being made by things that Arceus created. Do you think a Pokémon like Magearna isn’t created by metal?

Arceus created the unvierse, which means he created metal, which means he created Magearna a man-made pokemon?? That's a terrible sequence of logic.

Also let's remember Dialga, a steel type existed before the plates existed.

Yes. A Ghost Type. Where did the Typings come from? Arceus Plates

Everything can be traced back yo Arceus Plates. Every power, move or ability

Giratina existed as a ghost before the plates existed.

How…does this change the fact that the environment and nature itself is part of Arceus’s creation? Regional variants like Alolan and Galarian mon come from how the environment influence them in the region. The region itself is still made by Arceus as everything else is.

Aren't the continents shaped by pokemon like Regiggas, Kyogre, Groundon, etc.

The site doesn’t give Arceus abilities from human weapons so I don’t see the point of this argument. The second point is a PIS, and the third point is irrelevant to this whole thing. Arceus didn’t “have” to intervene with Hoopa, he did it because he wanted Hoopa to learn its mistakes.

Calling something PIS isn't an argument. Don't ignore things because they don't fit in your argument. Arceus did have to intervene with Hoopa as he was causing destruction. Are you saying that Hoopas actions wouldn't hurt the Pokemon world? It seems like Arceus had to intervene with Hoopa just as he had to Intervene with the meteor.

Each region has different lores and philosophies, doesn’t mean this is a contradiction. The lack of an outright statement =/= contradiction.
And Ultra Space is nothing different when it leads to all worlds in the multiverse anyway and have members of the creation trio roaming it.

Ultra Space is still something that has not been described as being created by Arceus or Palkia.

The main justification for all powers has always been because of the fact that everything is an aspect of Arceus. All Pokémon are parts of Arceus himself (hiker quote + origin story)

Except when they're not. The plates were created from the Universe and infused with the power of the Giants Ones. You said that the Giant Ones aren't necessarily the creation trio, therefore there are aspects of the Pokemon Franchise that isn't an aspect of Arceus, therefore the statement, "everything is an aspect of Arceus" is false.

Where is the Hiker Quote and Orgin story that it says all pokemon are part of Arceus.

All Pokémon are aspects of Arceus and as he has the powers of the creation and lake trios for being parts of him, the same thing would go for all Pokémon

Are the plates supposed to give strong supporting evidence of this? Yes. But they are not the main or only justification for it.

The OPs argument uses a mix of a lot of nitpicking, speculation, and headcanon to argue against Arceus having all powers (which this isn’t the first time this has come up here either).

The arguments for all powers being applied are very reasonably sound and they should remain.

The idea that the all pokemon get their powers from the Plates is proven wrong by several contradictions.

1. The Plates were created from the Universe. Pokemon that predated the unvierse: Arceus, the creation trio, the lake trio, all existed before the plates and had powers. They also had their typings already. There is no lore or evidence that they gained their typings after the creation of the plates.
2. The Plates were infused with the power of the Giants. I believe the giants refers to the creation trio, you believe that they do not. Nevertheless, the Giants exist and they helped give the plate power, which means the plates are not just aspects of Arceus, they possess the power of a third party as well.

So in conclusion two main arguments remain:

A. Pokemon had powers, abilites, types before the Plates existed. So it is wrong to say that the plates give pokemon their abilties, types, and powers. It also wrong to claim that Arceus by extension of having the plates has access to all the powers, abilities, types, and powers of every pokemon when he hasn't been shown to.
B. The claim that everything is an aspect of Arceus is false, as the Giant Ones exist and their power is infused in the plates as well. Why would Arceus has to defeat aspects of himself and rely on their power (as the lore says Arceus draws power from the plates).
B2. If the Giant Ones are the creation Trio, then that means Arceus does not have full control over every aspect of the verse and things can exist independent of him.

 

[Hasty12345]

I agree with the premise of the OP, whilst I believe some arguments to be a bit odd, the idea that Arceus just gets everything in the verse based on virtually an incomplete statement taken at its absolute highest interpretation and some hand waving about being the creator of the verse is absurd and I can’t think of any other character on the wiki who has the same treatment.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I agree with the premise of the OP, whilst I believe some arguments to be a bit odd, the idea that Arceus just gets everything in the verse based on virtually an incomplete statement taken at its absolute highest interpretation and some hand waving about being the creator of the verse is absurd and I can’t think of any other character on the wiki who has the same treatment.

We love brevity.

 

[Moritzva]

OP's argument seems reasonable. I was wondering this same thing.

 

[Sniper670]

I agree with the premise of the OP, whilst I believe some arguments to be a bit odd, the idea that Arceus just gets everything in the verse based on virtually an incomplete statement taken at its absolute highest interpretation and some hand waving about being the creator of the verse is absurd and I can’t think of any other character on the wiki who has the same treatment.

Oh right. The Japanese version makes it explicitly clear ;

1. Japanese (Katana)
生まれてくる　ポケモン プレートの力　わけあたえられる
Pokémon born with the power of the plate.

2. Japanese Hiragana
うまれてくる　ポケモン プレートの　ちから　わけあたえられる
そのもの

The ability of an unborn Pokémon plate to determine
what it is


"The Plates confer ever-changing powers on those who are worthy of Possessing them"

My Argument here is Plate= Powers of the verse

OP, do you have a better argument as to why Arceus doesn't have the powers of all Pokémon on account of him possessing the Plates, and being able to use its powers?

Let's take the mind Plate. It has the essence of Psychic energy. Basically gives the multiverse the ability to use psychic powers

Are you telling me Arceus cannot use Psychic powers because he hasn't been shown to use them?. In PLA he was using other CT powers just fine. In manga he spammed move after move after move. Let's ignore the part where Ditto and Mew exist

If you can't properly address why Arceus holding the Essence of their powers doesn't possess their powers, then I don't think your crt is getting anywhere

 

[Sniper670]

OP's argument seems reasonable. I was wondering this same thing.

Let's ignore the part where it's written on the plates all powers come from it shall we

 

[Sniper670]

This is no different from entities like Swirl of the Root, who has all powers on account of they come from it

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

My Argument here is Plate= Powers of the verse

OP, do you have a better argument as to why Arceus doesn't have the powers of all Pokémon on account of him possessing the Plates, and being able to use its powers?

Let's take the mind Plate. It has the essence of Psychic energy. Basically gives the multiverse the ability to use psychic powers

Are you telling me Arceus cannot use Psychic powers because he hasn't been shown to use them?. In PLA he was using other CT powers just fine. In manga he spammed move after move after move. Let's ignore the part where Ditto and Mew exist

If you can't properly address why Arceus holding the Essence of their powers doesn't possess their powers, then I don't think your crt is getting anywhere

Can you provide context for Japanese text you posted? For example, where it is from? Who says it?


I disagree that the mind Plate gives the multiverse the ability to use psychic powers. The Lake Trio had psychic typing and powers before the creation of the plates.

Arceus can use Psychic Powers because the mind plate gives him the psychic typing and also he can learn psychic type moves. Judgement would become a psychic type attack when he has the mind plate.

I am saying that Arceus having the Mind Plate doesn't mean he has the abilities (like trace or synchronize) of every Psychic Type Pokemon or has the powers of pokemon that doesn't come from movesets or abilities.

Arceus holding the essence of types changes his types. This is what the complete statement says.

 

[Sniper670]

I agree with the premise of the OP, whilst I believe some arguments to be a bit odd, the idea that Arceus just gets everything in the verse based on virtually an incomplete statement taken at its absolute highest interpretation and some hand waving about being the creator of the verse is absurd and I can’t think of any other character on the wiki who has the same treatment.

Swirl of The Root

 

[Rikimarox2]

Honestly agree with the OP. The arguments for Arceus having literally every single ability in the verse is lackluster and lacks feats, it's all just statements without any kind of feat.

 

[Sniper670]

Honestly agree with the OP. The arguments for Arceus having literally every single ability in the verse is lackluster and lacks feats, it's all just statements without any kind of feat.

And so what. Did you ask why entities like Swirl of Root have all powers?

TF it's written DIRECTLY on the plates that the powers come from it

Im starting to really hate the wiki handwaving evidence to support their own agenda

 

[Purgy]

Also leaning towards agree

From my understanding and from verses I've dealt with, we only give a character all the abilities of a race/group/verse when it's verbatim said that they have them, not from some extremely vague statement that is interpreted in the most favorable and hyperliteral way by Pokemon supporters simply to make him stronger.

At absolute best, I can see a "possibly" for those abilities, but even that seems like a bit of a stretch.

 

[Rikimarox2]

And so what. Did you ask why entities like Swirl of Root have all powers?

I don't know jack about Swirl of the shitstain, but this is whatboutism. The swirl shit could very well be wrong as well.

TF it's written DIRECTLY on the plates that the powers come from it

Which could easily be interpreted differently instead of him simultaneously having every ability including passives, which he has never shown to have.

Im starting to really hate the wiki handwaving evidence to support their own agenda

 

[Arceus0x]

Arceus can literally learn any move with a TM. He has the potential to learn any move and he has shown to learn them mid fight such as in the fight against him in PLA. He literally switches from what seems to be extrasensory, judgement, draco meteor and teleport only to suddenly begin using phantom force, palkia's AOE move, double team and more. He literally uses multiple moves he wasn't supposed to know if he was limited by 4 moves and he uses them to attack you relentlessly

 

[Quantu]

You should message some mods on their walls OP

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Arceus can literally learn any move with a TM. He has the potential to learn any move and he has shown to learn them mid fight such as in the fight against him in PLA. He literally switches from what seems to be extrasensory, judgement, draco meteor and teleport only to suddenly begin using phantom force, palkia's AOE move, double team and more. He literally uses multiple moves he wasn't supposed to know if he was limited by 4 moves and he uses them to attack you relentlessly

If Arceus is shown to be able to use more than 4 moves during a single battle then go ahead and put that on the profile.
And if Arceus is shown to be able to use a move, then put that on his profile.

That doesn't mean he gets abilities, movesets, and powers he has not been shown to have or capable of doing.

 

[Arceus0x]

oh and just to add to my argument, the moment you go into a pokemon battle he quickly switches to a 4 move style and uses moves like hyper beam and other moves which he didn't use before. This isn't something other pokemon can do in the game.

 

[Arceus0x]

If Arceus is shown to be able to use more than 4 moves during a single battle then go ahead and put that on the profile.
And if Arceus is shown to be able to use a move, then put that on his profile.

That doesn't mean he gets abilities, movesets, and powers he has not been shown to have or capable of doing.

he absolutely does because the plates from which the moves come from in the first place are literally in his arsenal. The moves he shows in this fight aren't part of the things he can learn by leveling up, he CHOSE to learn it because he can and so he did.

 

[Arceus0x]

so, so far arceus used moves that aren't even in his learnset willingly with no trainer assistance and when he used a water plate he used a water move to seal up someone with the fire plate. In my opinion that's a damn good feat list to prove that the guy who can learn any TM in the universe that he created can learn and use all the moves

 

[Sniper670]

Let me demonstrate why this statement is wrong with an anology:

From a roll of fabric, a jacket, a bag, and a scarf was made. Because they were made from the roll of fabric, they all have the same essence as the roll of frabric, however just because they all come from the same roll of fabric, doesn't mean the jacket, bag, and scarf are the same.

The plates were made from the universe, but that doesn't mean that everything in the universe is part of the plates or come from it.

Besides the fact that Pokemons multiverse is infinite, this point is just completely missing the actual point of why all powers are given

The entire verse not being apart of the plates doesn’t mean all powers aren’t granted and the plates in and of themselves are not the sole justification either. You missed the whole point.

Can you elaborate what you mean by this? Are you saying that the Legend plate is redundant?

The Legend plate exists because pokemon can't hold items in PLA nor do they have abilities. It's away for the Arceus to have his signature ability without actually having abilities or held items in the game.

And? Again, this line of reasoning misses the actual point. Arceus already has all of the individual type plates, the legend plate isn’t needed to give him his types.

And this still doesn’t change the fact that the legend plate plainfully specifies all of creation is imbued in it.

This point is nothing but using game mechanics as an argument

I never said it was flowerly language. I have taken each statement as being literal. The plates are imbued with essence of all creation because they were made from the universe.

Again. Each Plate corresponds to a type of power that the verse uses.

So yes. Every power comes from it

I'm not sure about this argument. Arceus should get all the moves and powers he's shown to have. If he doesn't have an ability in the games but has it in the anime or manga, then he should have that recorded on his profile.

Well, If the Plates is giving him all the powers then he'd still get them

Unless you have strong evidence to refute canon statements that the powers of the verse comes from the Plates

I have problem with Arceus getting abilities, move sets, and powers he has not been shown or stated to directly have.

The Plates has all the powers in it. I'm not sure why you made this crt.

He'd still get all powers because the Plates have it

Again, I never made the argument that it's not literal.

Sure

In the game, the plates boost the move sets. It does not give any pokemon any abilities. Arceus does not get Speed Boost by holding a plate.

Game mechanics as an argument? You can do better than that

Show me an example from a source material of plates doing more than just a power boost for pokemon that aren't just Arceus? Has a pokemon been able to use the plate to gain the abilities, movesets, or powers of another pokemon?

Again. Let's go with official sources shall we:

The rightful bearer of a Plate draws from the Plate it holds.”

If the giants aren't the creation trio, then that means there are beings that Arceus did not create that are responsible for creation of the plates and that there are aspects of the verse that Arceus does not embody or have power over. Therefore you cannot claim that Arceus can do whatever anyone in the verse can do.

We don't know who or what the Giants are, so we can't use that as an argument.. No headcannon here

Where in that picture does it say the plates are parts of Arceus? That also contradicts the fact that the plates were made from the universe after its creation which Arceus predates. Why would Arceus need something that is already apart of him to be created?

That's false. Only 2 plates were made after creation. In fact one of the plates has Arceus own power put into it. Unless you want to argue Arceus doesn't have access to his own powers, feel free

The being poured the remains of its power into stone and buried it deep.

So you agree, Pokemon do not get their powers from the Plate? Because the profile is claiming that Arceus gets the powers and all abilities of all pokemon and beings in pokemon because they all draw their power form the plates.

All things in creation is from Plates. Some of which Arceus put his own power into it. So
1. The Plates are Fragments of his Body
2. It has the essence of all creation

So you're making the claim that Mesprit created Dark Matter? Do you have evidence for the source material to support that?

It's in the multiverse right?
Plates then.


Arceus created the unvierse, which means he created metal, which means he created Magearna a man-made pokemon?? That's a terrible sequence of logic.


Also let's remember Dialga, a steel type existed before the plates existed.

Giratina existed as a ghost before the plates existed.

Aren't the continents shaped by pokemon like Regiggas, Kyogre, Groundon, etc.



Calling something PIS isn't an argument. Don't ignore things because they don't fit in your argument. Arceus did have to intervene with Hoopa as he was causing destruction. Are you saying that Hoopas actions wouldn't hurt the Pokemon world? It seems like Arceus had to intervene with Hoopa just as he had to Intervene with the meteor.



Ultra Space is still something that has not been described as being created by Arceus or Palkia.


Except when they're not. The plates were created from the Universe and infused with the power of the Giants Ones. You said that the Giant Ones aren't necessarily the creation trio, therefore there are aspects of the Pokemon Franchise that isn't an aspect of Arceus, therefore the statement, "everything is an aspect of Arceus" is false.

Where is the Hiker Quote and Orgin story that it says all pokemon are part of Arceus.



The idea that the all pokemon get their powers from the Plates is proven wrong by several contradictions.

1. The Plates were created from the Universe. Pokemon that predated the unvierse: Arceus, the creation trio, the lake trio, all existed before the plates and had powers. They also had their typings already. There is no lore or evidence that they gained their typings after the creation of the plates.
2. The Plates were infused with the power of the Giants. I believe the giants refers to the creation trio, you believe that they do not. Nevertheless, the Giants exist and they helped give the plate power, which means the plates are not just aspects of Arceus, they possess the power of a third party as well.

So in conclusion two main arguments remain:

A. Pokemon had powers, abilites, types before the Plates existed. So it is wrong to say that the plates give pokemon their abilties, types, and powers. It also wrong to claim that Arceus by extension of having the plates has access to all the powers, abilities, types, and powers of every pokemon when he hasn't been shown to.
B. The claim that everything is an aspect of Arceus is false, as the Giant Ones exist and their power is infused in the plates as well. Why would Arceus has to defeat aspects of himself and rely on their power (as the lore says Arceus draws power from the plates).
B2. If the Giant Ones are the creation Trio, then that means Arceus does not have full control over every aspect of the verse and things can exist independent of him.

For the rests of the Arguements, the very fact that Arceus Himself put the remains of his power supports what is written on the plates.

So yes, Dialga is steel, he's getting it from the steel plate. Why? Arceus literally placed these powers he had inside him into the plates. So what is mentioned that all Pokémon powers come from the Plates is VALID and is not just some flowery language

 

[Sniper670]

If Arceus is shown to be able to use more than 4 moves during a single battle then go ahead and put that on the profile.
And if Arceus is shown to be able to use a move, then put that on his profile.

That doesn't mean he gets abilities, movesets, and powers he has not been shown to have or capable of doing.

Game mechanics. School of Hard Knocks episode pretty much existed to show how stupid it would be have video game mechanics in a “real life” setting

 

[Sniper670]

I don't know jack about Swirl of the shitstain, but this is whatboutism. The swirl shit could very well be wrong as well.

It's the same thing. It is the source of their powers and so has all of it. Of course statements like the ones made by Arceus was used to support it

Which could easily be interpreted differently instead of him simultaneously having every ability including passives, which he has never shown to have.

Because he doesn't need to?

You don't see DnD character or Slime character passiveing the verse into oblivion, yet it's the verse with some of the most passive moves

And that goes for most verses on the wiki

Hmmph

 

[Arceus0x]

Finally, just to add a few strawberries to the cake, if we just say that not showing the usage of an ability automatically translates to not being capable of using that ability then we might as well nuke half the wiki's god tiers who just get abilities from creating them and being their sources

 

[Everything12]

Not going to say much about the full thread, because I don't have too much of an opinion for or against, but I do want to give my two cents on certain things metioned.

"The power of defeated giants infuses this Plate."

The defeated giants in this line most likely references the Creation Trio. Their power is infused with the plates. If the power of Pokémon comes solely from the plates, then that would mean the Creation Trio's power comes from the plates. This is a paradox because the Creation Trio existed before the creation of the universe and the Plates were created after the universe was made as they were made from the shards of the Universe. There are other pokemon that existed before the creation of the universe aka the Lake Trio, if the description on their profiles is accurate that they pre-date reality.

The plates were created from the shards of the universe and infused with the power of the Creation Trio. For the idea that all pokemon get their powers from the plate, the plates would have to predate pokemon and they don't.

As someone who is an expert on all types of Pokémon media, best not touch the giants for or against any arguments. They are completely vague that we have no clue what is going on with them, and nothing else we know seems to give any context or hint about what is going on with them. Not even Legends Arceus touches on them.

E. Humans are able to create devices and plans in order to harm, trap and control Arceus and as well his creation trio which were directly created by him. The universe has an independent progression from Arceus, he does not dictate every second. This is then solidfied in the Jewel of Life, where Arceus appeared to stop a meteorite from destroying the earth. If the universe is just an aspect of Arceus, why does he constantly have to intervene to control and stop threats such as Hoopa's space distortion?

In the Hoopa novel is made clear that the reason that the Creation Trio couldn't deal with the space distortion was because Arceus was actively preventing it, as some sort of test for Hoopa or something. The meteor is just PIS that is contradicted by plenty of other feats of Arceus and the Creation Trio, as is accepted by the wiki. Any time the Creation Trio are controlled by someone, it's either Red Chain which borrows Arceus' power to function, or a Pokéball which mechanics mean that the Creation Trio let themselves be caught.

F. There are places that haven't been directly stated to be created by Arceus or the Creation Trio such as the Ultra Space.

Ultra Space is just a space between universes that Ultra Wormholes connect to. Their isn't anything special that Palkia who rules over parallel universes isn't connected to.

 

[Arceus0x]

So you agree, Pokemon do not get their powers from the Plate? Because the profile is claiming that Arceus gets the powers and all abilities of all pokemon and beings in pokemon because they all draw their power form the plates.

Then the profile needs updating to better clarify. The plates are a strong reason but they are not the only reason he has their powers. The page saying that is wrong.

 

[Sniper670]

Even that Arceus and the Jewel of life movie literally has Arceus mention the Plates are part of him.

To sum up Arceus = The Multiverse and all that exists

 

[Arceus0x]

So you're making the claim that Mesprit created Dark Matter? Do you have evidence for the source material to support that?

You are legit deadass asking if Mesprit created emotions. Mesprit literally IS emotion. Which would include negative emotions, which Dark Matter is made from.

 

[Arceus0x]

anyways Arceus is deadass stated to be all-encompassing so i see no reason why he wouldn't encompass, for example, a charmander, one that he can recreate infinitely and make him have 2-A stats

 

[Everything12]

Even that Arceus and the Jewel of life movie literally has Arceus mention the Plates are part of him.

To sum up Arceus = The Multiverse and all that exists

Well more the thing Arceus is the avatar of... the thing that says that Arceus is the closest name that humans have for it.

 

[InfiniteDay]

Inclined more towards agreeing with this CRT.

 

[Arceus0x]

Well more the thing Arceus is the avatar of... the thing that says that Arceus is the closest name that humans have for it.

well yeah, Arceus is technically not Arceus. Arceus is the avatar and the true one is unnamable. Arceus is a good code name doe

 

[Arceus0x]

Inclined more towards agreeing with this CRT.

my man deadass read through three people debunking the OP and just went "yeah agree with OP "

 

[Chariot190]

Canonically there are moves that Arceus cannot use or have access to.

Yeah, and Mew can't learn Crab Hammer.

 

[Everything12]

my man deadass read through three people debunking the OP and just went "yeah agree with OP "

Let's not start that.

 

[InfiniteDay]

my man deadass read through three people debunking the OP and just went "yeah agree with OP "

I don't care for your arguments and side more with the OP, the amount of people who disagree with the OP does not affect me.

 

[Arceus0x]

Let's not start that.

Sorry, i am just tired of the trend of people randomly agreeing with no further context despite there being so much debunks to OP's claims that haven't been rebuked.

 

[Purgy]

Instead of Pokemon supporters spamming this thread with incoherent posts, I suggest you form an actual response with all the evidence supporting Arceus having those abilities in one.

As it stands I still agree with the OP, but if an actual response is made then my opinion might change.

 

[Sniper670]

I.... I cannot believe this