Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
No. This is about the plates. I’m not going to have another drawn out argument about the battle reverie.The plates and Eternal Battle Reverie make up the whole.
So there's no need for another thread
I've been on this thread from the beginning and have made it clear I regard the plates as incomplete or weak standalone evidence, but Cal's points about how Arceus can summon all mons (as clarified more in a previous post) and similar arguments form a stronger basis that the plates can then support. The abilities can stay, but the reasonings should probably change, imo.
The plates alone are not enough. The profile uses the plates. To add the battle reverie as the main source of proof requires an entirely different discussionI didn't lose anything. I'll quote
The Plates are valid as well and so in the end, nothing needs to be changedThe plates alone are not enough. The profile uses the plates. To add the battle reverie as the main source of proof requires and entirely different discussion
Did you not read the sentence?clear I regard the plates as incomplete or weak standalone evidence
anyways, Ant the majority of staff on here agree the plates don’t support Arceus having these abilities or that the evidence is weak and needs more.Okay. Thank you for the evaluation.
Again you're wrong. The Plates are there to support the notion that Arceus has all powers. In addition to Eternal Battle ReverieDid you not read the sentence?
anyways, Ant the majority of staff on here agree the plates don’t support Arceus having these abilities or that the evidence is weak and needs more.
For the time being the added plates abilites should be removed from the profile and can be added after a NEW crt thread about the battle reverie evidence has been made and discussed.
Yup. We're done. I'll add a note about eternal battle reverie in addition to the plates.this conversation has run its course and won’t go anywhere.
Yes. Very few knowledgeable staff made it here. It's best to waitWell, I just asked for further staff input. It seems best to wait for a while first.
We haven't discussed the battle reverie in full. It will create another few pages of back and forth. It going to become cluttered with basically three arguments going:I don't see a reason to make a new thread when we are reaching a related conclusion on this one.
now i'll connect abilities to types, and if it is not big enough, connect moves to abilitiesmove stuff
That seems like it would set a terrible precedence. Tons of other creator entities that created everyone in their verse don't get all abilities from their creations.Hello!
I've been on this thread from the beginning and have made it clear I regard the plates as incomplete or weak standalone evidence, but Cal's points about how Arceus can summon all mons (as clarified more in a previous post) and similar arguments form a stronger basis that the plates can then support. The abilities can stay, but the reasonings should probably change, imo.
he'd have access to them, he doesn't need to already have the physiology for it when it is just an avatar, also mesprint is literally all emotions incarnate and is a piece of arceus so yes, he is, mesprit not scaling can either be added or, if it is really so wrong, just don't include physiological abilities i guess? the rest of the moves are covered by the types/plates anyway so losing super specific power doesn't sound like an argument for the other non-physiological abilitiesI mean, some of those abilities straight up come from physiological aspects Arceus doesn't even have. Like Cryogonal's ability to regenerate after being turned to water, which only makes sense since it is made out of ice, which Arceus isn't. Or Dark Matter's ability to regenerate due to being the incarnation of negative emotions, which Arceus just isn't.
Yes. You make a great point overall.That seems like it would set a terrible precedence. Tons of other creator entities that created everyone in their verse don't get all abilities from their creations.
Quite frankly, there is just not much of a relation between being able to create an entity that can learn an ability and having it yourself.
I mean, some of those abilities straight up come from physiological aspects Arceus doesn't even have. Like Cryogonal's ability to regenerate after being turned to water, which only makes sense since it is made out of ice, which Arceus isn't. Or Dark Matter's ability to regenerate due to being the incarnation of negative emotions, which Arceus just isn't.
That argument goes against our running standards, as far as I am aware. If we seriously consider using it here, then we should have a debate about the standard in general, as this argument can be used for many other characters as well.
This.i kinda agree with battle reviere not being great evidence due to that standard though, even as supporting evidence it is meh, the main argument should be connecting the plates, types, moves and abilities
Technically every move appears to require a certain physiology, though. Or at least something similar.he'd have access to them, he doesn't need to already have the physiology for it when it is just an avatar, also mesprint is literally all emotions incarnate and is a piece of arceus so yes, he is, mesprit not scaling can either be added or, if it is really so wrong, just don't include physiological abilities i guess? the rest of the moves are covered by the types/plates anyway so losing super specific power doesn't sound like an argument for the other non-physiological abilities
That's just the magician argument all over again. Every magician has the same mana, but not every magician can learn the same spells.Yes. You make a great point overall.
It's the energy that allows for the powers to be used. One of the reasons why Regidrago composed of crystallized Dragon Energy, can use all dragon type moves.
And then we have Arceus who has the literal Essense of all powers. I fail to see why he shouldn't be capable of doing anything any one can
We've been over that. No need to repeat us further.Well well. May I introduce you to Arceus Plates
Not all ice types are made out of ice either, though. Other ice types don't have that ability. Just this specific one made out of ice.That's as a result of its typing no? The Ice Type. He wouldn't even be alive if the ice typing wasn't a thing lol. Which is being sourced from ates as well
As you know, the way I read the quotes, the plates grant power, as in energy, not powers as in abilities.Plus, it's about plates and what it can do, which will be possible for Arceus as well as he's the one granting said powers via plates
Lots of creator entities can come up with equally vague evidence as support. Could name you three examples from the top of my head. Will leave them out in the assumption that you don't want to hear them.The Eternal Battle Reverie will be supported by the Plates, which have been confirmed to have the power of all things. Simple as that
The same way Regidrago was confirmed to have the powers of all dragon type on account of having crystallized dragon energy, that is how Arceus has all powers on account of having the literal essence of their powers.
Regidrago can use all dragon moves because he has dense crystallized dragon energy on his body.That's just the magician argument all over again. Every magician has the same mana, but not every magician can learn the same spells.
All dragon-types have access to Dragon-Type energy/power, but they can't all use all dragon moves.
If others with access to dragon-type power/energy can't, why can Arceus?
Well yeah. It's a pretty big evidence for Arceus having all powersWe've been over that. No need to repeat us further.
Yes. But how does that contradict the fact that the plates has the power of everything?Not all ice types are made out of ice either, though. Other ice types don't have that ability. Just this specific one made out of ice.
As mentioned above, more energy = access to more movesAs you know, the way I read the quotes, the plates grant power, as in energy, not powers as in abilities.
Don't forget, every verse works differently. For Pokémon it's mentioned several times the plates have the power of everything.Lots of creator entities can come up with equally vague evidence as support.
The plates dictates what power they can use so yes, everything is an aspect of ArceusIt seems were going to just continue the debating. Then so be it.
I agree with DT, that creators don't automatically get the abilities of their creation unless its specific stated that the creation is an aspect of them or avatars or extensions of their beings. This is why Arceus has the abilities of the creation trio and the lake trio. For the rest of pokemon, they are not created directly by Arceus.
It's Conceptual Creation. The Plates are literally concepts that dictate TypingsPokemon form naturally in nature via evolution and environmental factors. They can even go extinct. Pokemon can be created by humans directly, or be created by the artificial environment of humans such as Banette forming from an abandoned doll. Humans can become pokemon in the case of phantump who used to be lost child. We have no confirmation that Arceus, or the Original One handcrafts each pokemon, and even if we did, we still need confirmation that they are aspects of them, avatars, or extensions.
Arceus, is the Original One's stand-in. And the Original One uses Arceus for any and all interactions in the verse. So yes, his Avatar is getting all powers regardless.As for the Battle Reverie, I disagree that it supports the idea of Arceus gaining the power, moves, and abilities of every Pokemon. For one, The Original One being able create/summon the pokemon doesn't give him the abilties of these pokemon. Characters who can summon other beings don't automatically get the abilities of those summons. Those summons however are written as separate keys, or the abilities are written as, "xxx, yyy, zzz with summon".
Hoopa and Unown are not confirmed to have the power of all thingsNot to mention, Hoopa and Unown are both able to summon/create pokemon. That doesn't mean they have the ability to use the powers of every pokemon they summon and create. And unown can create pokemon that are stronger than them such as Entei.
"This I believe", and there you go trying to use your headcannon to overwrite the lore.And during the Battle Reverie, you can use Arceus while the Original One challenges you and the Arceus you use has access to the legend plate. This I believe completely null and voids the idea that the plates give Arceus the powers of every pokemon. The Original One views Arceus just as any other pokemon.
Regidrago can use all dragon moves because he has dense crystallized dragon energy on his body.
So yes, for Pokémon, more energy = access to more moves. Arceus plates literally holds the Essence of their powers, so he gets it all
That's definitely not true, as much more powerful Pokémon can not have access to moves vastly weaker Pokémon can learn if their species don't allow them to.As mentioned above, more energy = access to more moves
*powerWell yeah. It's a pretty big evidence for Arceus having all powers
No, but it contradicts the idea that all those with access to ice-type energy have this ability.Yes. But how does that contradict the fact that the plates has the power of everything?
We're arguing plates here
Arceus has psychic energy and can use psychic attacks, no doubt. But, as said, I don't see that as evidence of him having mastered every application of psychic energy.It's the exact same for Psychic energy and all energy from Plates, which Arceus has the essence
Most other verses just have "mana" or similar as the power of all supernatural abilities. So by that the gods using mana also have the power of everything.Don't forget, every verse works differently. For Pokémon it's mentioned several times the plates have the power of everything.
And in Eternal Battle Reverie, he can easily replicate any and all Pokémon, even man made one's no problem
No it doesn't.The plates dictates what power they can use so yes, everything is an aspect of Arceus
It's exactly why the Plates have the power of all things even though new Pokémon keep being born. Regardless of whether you'll be born a trillion years from now, Arceus has your power
The plates are literally physical things that regular people can hold and find.It's Conceptual Creation. The Plates are literally concepts that dictate Typings
Arceus doesn't come down from heaven to grant you a type, the Typings are there for Pokémon to be born around. It's why the Flame Plate which has the power of defeated giants, is somehow shared across the multiverse with Pokémon being born with flame physiology and existing all the same.
It's a Conceptual Thing as I've mentioned
Avatars don't get all the powers of their creators. By that logic, the creation trio will have all the powers of the Arceus too.Arceus, is the Original One's stand-in. And the Original One uses Arceus for any and all interactions in the verse. So yes, his Avatar is getting all powers regardless.
That has already been confirmed by the plates and it pains me supporters lost interest in Pokémon since the canon split. This would've been closed days ago.
You're should be thankful for that
Hoopa and Unown are not confirmed to have the power of all things
Hence, the plates supporting Eternal Battle Reverie. Which is said earlier today. Moritzva also said same
"This I believe", and there you go trying to use your headcannon to overwrite the lore.
Do note Original One never made an appearance in PLA. It's His Avatar from A to Z. Everything is done with and via Avatars.
AlrightThat's definitely not true, as much more powerful Pokémon can not have access to moves vastly weaker Pokémon can learn if their species don't allow them to.
Regidrago’s body is composed of crystallized dragon energy. The energy is densest in its central core. Thanks to its body composition, Regidrago can use Dragon-type moves with greater power than other Pokémon.
What does this tell usIts body is composed of crystallized dragon energy. Regidrago is said to have the powers of every dragon Pokémon.
That's false. Psychic Pokémon do not have what they can learn and what they can't. More potency = you can do more. It's simple as that.E.g. Deoxys can't learn confusion but definitely has vastly more psychic power than a Ralts.
It is because of being composed of Dragon Energy. Which I've shown earlier.Regidrago likely has an additional reason for being able to supposedly use all dragon powers (technically the dex entry only claims that this is said to be the case). In fact, the Pokédex entry doesn't state that it has all powers due to the energy. Unless there's some Japanese translation I'm unaware of where a causal relationship between the two statements is suggested.
It doesn't contradict the fact its the powers of the plates that is being shared amongst Pokémon*power
No, but it contradicts the idea that all those with access to ice-type energy have this ability.
Regidrago being composed of Dragon Energy allowed him usage of every move so yes, more energy = more access to movesMeaning that someone with access to all ice-type energy wouldn't necessarily have it either.
Having mastered. When he literally has the conception of Psychic Energy on the plate.Arceus has psychic energy and can use psychic attacks, no doubt. But, as said, I don't see that as evidence of him having mastered every application of psychic energy.
Every verse has their way of doing things.Most other verses just have "mana" or similar as the power of all supernatural abilities. So by that the gods using mana also have the power of everything.
Regidrago, due to being composed entirely of Crystalline energy, has the powers of all dragon Type.
No it doesn't.
Where has it ever been stated that the plates controls what powers a pokemon has?
Pokémon Born with the power of plates
The power of Plates are shared amongst all Pokémon
Of course. Now try to use the powers within them if you're not Arceus. The plates here are fragments of himself and contains within them the essence of things. Essence of Normalcy... Normalcy here, isn't even a physical thing. And the Plates here dictating the powers of anything at all proves their concepts for tbe multiverse Pokémon to be born aroundThe plates are literally physical things that regular people can hold and find.
Arceus is the Avatar's stand in, so they get the powers. The plates being the biggest evidence of thatAvatars don't get all the powers of their creators. By that logic, the creation trio will have all the powers of the Arceus too.
Where are you getting this "power of all things" that's not stated anywhere.
Translation :レジェンドプレート
万物の力が宿った石盤。あるポケモンに使うと あらゆるタイプの力を得る。
Legend Plate
A stone tablet in which the power of all things resides. When used on a Pokémon, it gains the power of all types of Pokémon
Who? The Original One has never made any appearance. Are you lost?The Original One talks to the player or if that's just another Arceus who cares. The main thing is that you're ignoring the fact that I said the player with the Arceus and the legend plate can take part of the Reverie, so the Original One or the Arceus (which ever you want to believe it is) that creates the challenge doesn't have the legend plate. So they're creating/summoning pokemon without it.
Are they Dragon Type moves besides game mechanics?Regidrago can't learn Spacial Rend or Roar of Time.
@Antvasima Do you think we should debate whether we take creating a verse as (strong supporting) evidence for the creator entity having all abilities in it in a staff thread? Or a separate thread at least?
It seems to me like approving that as precedence here would have rather far-reaching consequences, so perhaps it would be wise to debate it disjoint from the Pokémon case.
Translation :レジェンドプレート
万物の力が宿った石盤。あるポケモンに使うと あらゆるタイプの力を得る。
Legend Plate
A stone tablet in which the power of all things resides. When used on a Pokémon, it gains the power of all types of Pokémon
The things I would do to never hear the words “Game Mechanics” in a Pokémon thread again the way it’s used...Are they Dragon Type moves besides game mechanics?
Think about it
A separate staff forum thread seems best for this purpose, but I vaguely recall that we likely have an inactive thread for this topic already.@Antvasima Do you think we should debate whether we take creating a verse as (strong supporting) evidence for the creator entity having all abilities in it in a staff thread? Or a separate thread at least?
It seems to me like approving that as precedence here would have rather far-reaching consequences, so perhaps it would be wise to debate it disjoint from the Pokémon case.
Because pokemon are inherently born with a type. It's just how the world works.Now tell me why a man made Pokémon is a psychic type. Drawing Power from Plates
The shards are created from the universe. The essence is what's abstract. The plates are not. In fact, its an even better argument that pokemon get their types from the essences of types.Of course. Now try to use the powers within them if you're not Arceus. The plates here are fragments of himself and contains within them the essence of things. Essence of Normalcy... Normalcy here, isn't even a physical thing. And the Plates here dictating the powers of anything at all proves their concepts for tbe multiverse Pokémon to be born around
That's not true at all. Avatars don't get all the powers of their creators. Are you going to argue Palkia has all the powers of Arceus?Arceus is the Avatar's stand in, so they get the powers. The plates being the biggest evidence of that
Where are you getting this "power of all things" that's not stated anywhere.Translation :レジェンドプレート
万物の力が宿った石盤。あるポケモンに使うと あらゆるタイプの力を得る。
Legend Plate
A stone tablet in which the power of all things resides. When used on a Pokémon, it gains the power of all types of Pokémon
A stone tablet imbued with the essence of all creation. When used on a certain Pokémon, it allows that Pokémon to gain the power of every type there is. |
Who? The Original One has never made any appearance. Are you lost?
And the point you're making doesn't even make sense to begin with. It's clear you don't even understand what you're talking about
Are you kidding me? I'm just going to default to what Pikamin said.Are they Dragon Type moves besides game mechanics?
Think about it
Actually not what the quotes say. They say it's composed of dragon-energy and they say that it has access to all moves. The quote doesn't say that it has access to all moves for the reason of having access to that energy.Alright
What does this tell us
1. More Dragon Energy=More power
2. More Dragon Energy=Acess to more moves.
Regidrago, due to being composed entirely of Crystalline energy, has the powers of all dragon Type.
Are you suggesting that every Pokémon can learn every move of their type once it becomes strong enough? That's a can of worm that's not accepted on any level right now, given that otherwise all the Pokémon species profiles would also have to list all moves of the Pokémon species' type.That's false. Psychic Pokémon do not have what they can learn and what they can't. More potency = you can do more. It's simple as that.
No gatekeeping threads, m8.You claim you have minimal knowledge about Pokémon and I'm starting to question your presence here
It doesn't contradict that it's powered by mana, but it does contradict that everyone with mana can use that spell.It doesn't contradict the fact its the powers of the plates that is being shared amongst Pokémon
And Noah is the incarnation of all concepts of the multiverse yet is far from having mastered literally everything. Being the source of a concept/power means little for having the ability to use it optimally in every aspect.Having mastered. When he literally has the conception of Psychic Energy on the plate.
The Plates is what gives the multiverse its Typings. And Arceus plates have the power of all things. I fail to see any selective statements being made here except your headcannon
Hmmm... do we? I will look tomorrow if I can find that then.A separate staff forum thread seems best for this purpose, but I vaguely recall that we likely have an inactive one already.
@Antvasima Do you think we should debate whether we take creating a verse as (strong supporting) evidence for the creator entity having all abilities in it in a staff thread? Or a separate thread at least?
It seems to me like approving that as precedence here would have rather far-reaching consequences, so perhaps it would be wise to debate it disjoint from the Pokémon case.
Is somebody able to try to find the relevant URL please?A separate staff forum thread seems best for this purpose, but I vaguely recall that we likely have an inactive thread for this topic already.
Well, I do vaguely recall that we discussed the topic of characters such as The One Above All receiving all other character powers automatically at least.Hmmm... do we? I will look tomorrow if I can find that then.
And it's because of this Dragon Energy composition that he can use all dragon movesActually not what the quotes say. They say it's composed of dragon-energy and they say that it has access to all moves. The quote doesn't say that it has access to all moves for the reason of having access to that energy.
No. The Reason Regidrago has all dragon power is because he's composed directly of Crystalline Dragon Energy, as opposed to other dragons being normal creaturesAre you suggesting that every Pokémon can learn every move of their type once it becomes strong enough? That's a can of worm that's not accepted on any level right now, given that otherwise all the Pokémon species profiles would also have to list all moves of the Pokémon species' type.
I have done so. Op decided to make this crt so I'm hereI guarantee you that you won't be able to get that accepted, but if you wish to continue that line of argument try create a separate thread about adding all the abilities corresponding to their types to every Pokémon species profile.
Arceus has the spell book with limitless mana here.. I don't see why he can't use the spells when he's the one directly distributing the spells to othersNo gatekeeping threads, m8.
It doesn't contradict that it's powered by mana, but it does contradict that everyone with mana can use that spell.
Of course. Because Noah is a Pokémon now. Or he's in Pokémon?And Noah is the incarnation of all concepts of the multiverse yet is far from having mastered literally everything. Being the source of a concept/power means little for having the ability to use it optimally in every aspect.