@TheKingStrategist13 already replied to most points, but I'll still add a bit from what I could already gather as it seems the stuff below is the main argument.
totally disagree with using jewel of life for that, we already accept that movie as being full of PIS and a bad characterization of arceus, who in the games is both portrayed as not having the same limitations and not being as naive and unstable as the movie, plus the whole "nerf" he got, and i disagree with separating the concept of knownledge from actual knownledge in this case, cuz uxie's knownledge is directly stated to have brought intelligence and is related to memories, besides the fact that he controls it, even if that downgrades it to nigh omnscient, it still works as supporting evidence of arceus knowning all the moves' information like how to do them and how they work
Thing is that's not how we give around intelligence ratings in the first place as explained in the OP, change the site standards first if you want to use this nonsense as proof, as until then it's a direct double standard just to raise ratings on a page.
arceus' heart, which is also refered to as his mind, exists through both space and time, so yes he does view the beginning and ending of things, and the scan sent doesn't limit it to the present, they say he is always watching them, that's it, that can apply to someone watching them through time as well, also legend plate says that arceus watches over all creations, so yeah the CA is still good, plus dialga literally heard other's calling for it in other periods of time and arceus scales to dailga so there is that
Being omnipresent across time/space also isn't inherent proof of a character being omniscient, especially when there's anti-feats for it, giving intelligence by upscaling to another character is also nonsense, it's no different from giving resistances to a character by upscaling, which
we don't do.
also disagree with him losing the plates powers.
Technically Arceus would still have them if this gets a pass, but they just wouldn't be that good.
we literally have characters scaling to other's hax and such simply by having the same energy, like ki users in dragon ball, or sharing a physiology, and yet being the source of a power and literally it's creator doesn't? fire type pokemon use fire moves because they have fire energy, that's it, some may have unique moves but is all fire energy in the end
even if they are just a energy source, i already proved in that thread that the moves and abilities use the energy of their types, and said types can be changed or removed due to energy, so the energy source should be able to use them if they simple know how, and the nigh-omniscient watcher should know how because he is "always watching all creations", even if it was just in the present, and he would remember it cuz memories are part of uxie and he remembers shit from centuries ago after sleeping
also, sniper brought a new translation that said that it granted "every type's power" which leans more to the abilities themselves, plus in the anime arceus used the splash plate explicitly to use a water move so yeah, more evidence on that
Those cases have way more broad and overall simplified cases, for example, a element in a given verse can have the inherent attributes of Sleep Manipulation and Existence Erasure to those significantly exposed to it without a countermeasure, which is quite different compared to claiming that a character has every application (notably techniques, or in here, "moves") shown of a given power just because the element behind it comes from them. Would you claim that a cow can make cheese just because it comes from milk? No.
The argument isn't that the plates are entirely useless, but rather on extrapolating far more abilities than what they'd represent
as explained by DT here being very questionable to say the least. The OP
has also already gone on (also citing DT) way more than mere knowledge being required to use a move, several more aspects are required than that, and we require to make even further assumptions for all of this to work.
That seems a bit of note, but eh... the context when taking into account every official translation leans into that just talking about energy (
as also evaluated by DT already), rather than anything fancier like every existent move, ability, etc., just changing a bit the translation to be slightly more accurate doesn't change anything when the overall meaning remains about the same, especially with how the site generally prefers the least assumptions possible.
As DT said, no, creation entities are very common and they don't have every power in the setting by default, this sets a bad precedent as well.
yeah i disagree with using it even as a support evidence ngl, even if usable it would be very weak and a double standard
Also sets a bad precedent as said by DT, we don't grant powers to a character as if they were inherent aspects of them by just summoning/creating something with a power already displayed in the setting, at best that'd need a separate section on the page, especially to avoid compositing as there's not sufficient evidence to combine every P&A in the series at the same time to Arceus.
agree too, summoning and even power bestowing =/= scaling to powers given unless more evidence
Thanks for being reasonable.
there's nothing to correlate the example used (Regidrago, which is also dubious in-universe anyways) to the energy of the plates, as DT explains in the thread, there's hardly any precedent for a sufficiently strong Pokémon having every single move of its own type, straight up headcanon aside, especially as there's several attributes necessary beyond just a type to use a move or ability as DT also said.
Plates literally have stataments correlating them to the powers of pokemon, unlike regidraco, also DT only brought 2 kinds of example, a physiology absed which is not assumed to be on arceus by default and only with transform, and a single move as a example, which doesn't apply to arceus because he obviously would have the knownledge to use it even if his intelligence gets downgraded and his CA limited to the present
Statements that don't sufficiently lean to Arceus having every possible usage of any type (moves, abilities, etc.), and Transform is only granted to Arceus from this nonsense with the plates in the first place (which is also quite limited as it doesn't allow to combine Pokémon for multiple abilities or the like, only shapeshifting to the physiology and capabilities of a existent thing, usually a single Pokémon), so that's not an argument to stand on. I've also already gone on knowledge not being remotely the only criteria to have the capability to use/have a move, ability, etc.
Staff rank shouldn't matter to get a thread approved if the majority agrees with it, and is kinda on DT for not commenting to begin with, also please point example of staff "willing to accept this nonsense over Arceus"
I could just cite how the original CRT had quite a decent amount of of staff support until DT stepped in to debunk it, for a reason bureaucrats are where they are, I'd mention names but I don't want to unecessarily offend anyone. The site also has consistently overriden the opinions of multiple staff members if a bureaucrat thinks the contrary, this is the standard, and you'd have to change that if you disagree to begin with.
i'll be frank, i don't understand why staff even matters in this case, sure i get it for wiki related changes like our attack potency page, but this is something related to knownledge of the verse, if the staff is not knownledgable, their vote should matter less than a normal user's vote who are experienced with it, not saying DT or anyone else is or isn't qualified, just commenting on it
Also, staff generally have a better grasp of the site standards, which is important for the purposes of a CRT. Why do you think most CRTs require at least one staff agreement? To avoid Little Timmy from making Dora the Explorer Tier 0 just because she breaks the 4th wall.
is reiterating stuff because there was a thread before that only got the moves accepted for some inexplicable reason, which explicitly brought new arguments, and more importantly, organized them in a single CRT because they were put in the dozens of comments and pages of the IAM's thread, kinda making it impossible to properly analyse them
reminder that those arguments are supposed to work togheter, not as singular evidence, is not "okay this is why arceus has all the powers, oh and this supports it", is more like "types' moves and abilities use energy, energy that needs to learning and skill to mold and use, plates have both energy and have shown to use moves with them, arceus has the knownledge on how to use it, arceus should be able to use them"
i am neutral on arceus getting literally 100% of the verse's power tbh, but i totally agree that he should have all pokemon moves and general powers (like dex entries or anime showings, like gardevoir's black hole explicitly being done with "psychic power"), unsure on the passive abilities since we even have to choose which ability they have in VS matches for instance tbh but i'm neutral on that too
Sure, weak arguments together can make decent implications from where to gather conclusions from, but the thing is that such proof is quite lacking and requires a re-evaluation at best, especially considering you're conceding some of these arguments.
In PLA,
humans literally go to Uxie for any question at all they want to ask him, why? He's literally the very concept of knowledge. It has
Dominion over knowledge itself.
And Uxie is merely an aspect of Arceus
For the countless time, dominion over knowledge =/= knows everything
DT has also gone into detail on that
here.
Humans asking stuff to Uxie just implies that it's smart, not that it knows everything per-say (as the thing you linked doesn't even states that),
they also do the same to Slowking, for instance, which is just stated to have the intelligence of an award-winning scientist, which is still quite below Omniscience.
I disagree. The Arceus in the anime is a heavily nerfed and modified one who was made specifically for the movie.
Please refrain from using the anime's depiction of Arceus to discredit his status, as the director himself confirmed although he's Omnipotent and Omniscient, they had to resort to ways to nerf him.
It's pis
Not only we don't grant stuff to characters just because they're stated to be "omnipotent" or "omniscient", especially if you're going to rely on
the name of its ability in Conquest, which is even less usable and would be like giving Absolute Zero to someone just because they have a move named that,
which we explicitly don't as it's just a fancy name for our purposes,
DT has also explicitly disagreed on this, as it's still a showing that may be used against claiming Arceus being of that nature.
