Arceus Hax/Intelligence Downgrade: Compositing is bad

[Sniper670]

Yet Arceus has been shown to be very limited in both the movies and the manga.

1. Anime Arceus was nerfed for the movie, Director of the movie said so himself. And every instance of his showings after proves what happened in the movie was bs. In fact, if that movie didn't exist you literally have nothing to say against Arceus. And even now, it's Pis. Did I not prove that?

2. Manga Arceus was testing humans so I'm not sure what you're talking about. The writer of the arc literally said he didn't know how anyone could even match up to him

What limitations are you talking about here exactly.

Let's go to Primary Canon. Name one limitation of Arceus there.

You can’t have it both ways.

They're all simply avatars. The game version so happens to have the highest status amongst them.

 

[Bobsican]

@TheKingStrategist13 already replied to most points, but I'll still add a bit from what I could already gather as it seems the stuff below is the main argument.

totally disagree with using jewel of life for that, we already accept that movie as being full of PIS and a bad characterization of arceus, who in the games is both portrayed as not having the same limitations and not being as naive and unstable as the movie, plus the whole "nerf" he got, and i disagree with separating the concept of knownledge from actual knownledge in this case, cuz uxie's knownledge is directly stated to have brought intelligence and is related to memories, besides the fact that he controls it, even if that downgrades it to nigh omnscient, it still works as supporting evidence of arceus knowning all the moves' information like how to do them and how they work

Thing is that's not how we give around intelligence ratings in the first place as explained in the OP, change the site standards first if you want to use this nonsense as proof, as until then it's a direct double standard just to raise ratings on a page.

arceus' heart, which is also refered to as his mind, exists through both space and time, so yes he does view the beginning and ending of things, and the scan sent doesn't limit it to the present, they say he is always watching them, that's it, that can apply to someone watching them through time as well, also legend plate says that arceus watches over all creations, so yeah the CA is still good, plus dialga literally heard other's calling for it in other periods of time and arceus scales to dailga so there is that

Being omnipresent across time/space also isn't inherent proof of a character being omniscient, especially when there's anti-feats for it, giving intelligence by upscaling to another character is also nonsense, it's no different from giving resistances to a character by upscaling, which we don't do.

also disagree with him losing the plates powers.

Technically Arceus would still have them if this gets a pass, but they just wouldn't be that good.

we literally have characters scaling to other's hax and such simply by having the same energy, like ki users in dragon ball, or sharing a physiology, and yet being the source of a power and literally it's creator doesn't? fire type pokemon use fire moves because they have fire energy, that's it, some may have unique moves but is all fire energy in the end

even if they are just a energy source, i already proved in that thread that the moves and abilities use the energy of their types, and said types can be changed or removed due to energy, so the energy source should be able to use them if they simple know how, and the nigh-omniscient watcher should know how because he is "always watching all creations", even if it was just in the present, and he would remember it cuz memories are part of uxie and he remembers shit from centuries ago after sleeping

also, sniper brought a new translation that said that it granted "every type's power" which leans more to the abilities themselves, plus in the anime arceus used the splash plate explicitly to use a water move so yeah, more evidence on that

Those cases have way more broad and overall simplified cases, for example, a element in a given verse can have the inherent attributes of Sleep Manipulation and Existence Erasure to those significantly exposed to it without a countermeasure, which is quite different compared to claiming that a character has every application (notably techniques, or in here, "moves") shown of a given power just because the element behind it comes from them. Would you claim that a cow can make cheese just because it comes from milk? No.

The argument isn't that the plates are entirely useless, but rather on extrapolating far more abilities than what they'd represent as explained by DT here being very questionable to say the least. The OP has also already gone on (also citing DT) way more than mere knowledge being required to use a move, several more aspects are required than that, and we require to make even further assumptions for all of this to work.

That seems a bit of note, but eh... the context when taking into account every official translation leans into that just talking about energy (as also evaluated by DT already), rather than anything fancier like every existent move, ability, etc., just changing a bit the translation to be slightly more accurate doesn't change anything when the overall meaning remains about the same, especially with how the site generally prefers the least assumptions possible.

As DT said, no, creation entities are very common and they don't have every power in the setting by default, this sets a bad precedent as well.

yeah i disagree with using it even as a support evidence ngl, even if usable it would be very weak and a double standard

Also sets a bad precedent as said by DT, we don't grant powers to a character as if they were inherent aspects of them by just summoning/creating something with a power already displayed in the setting, at best that'd need a separate section on the page, especially to avoid compositing as there's not sufficient evidence to combine every P&A in the series at the same time to Arceus.

agree too, summoning and even power bestowing =/= scaling to powers given unless more evidence

Thanks for being reasonable.

there's nothing to correlate the example used (Regidrago, which is also dubious in-universe anyways) to the energy of the plates, as DT explains in the thread, there's hardly any precedent for a sufficiently strong Pokémon having every single move of its own type, straight up headcanon aside, especially as there's several attributes necessary beyond just a type to use a move or ability as DT also said.

Plates literally have stataments correlating them to the powers of pokemon, unlike regidraco, also DT only brought 2 kinds of example, a physiology absed which is not assumed to be on arceus by default and only with transform, and a single move as a example, which doesn't apply to arceus because he obviously would have the knownledge to use it even if his intelligence gets downgraded and his CA limited to the present

Statements that don't sufficiently lean to Arceus having every possible usage of any type (moves, abilities, etc.), and Transform is only granted to Arceus from this nonsense with the plates in the first place (which is also quite limited as it doesn't allow to combine Pokémon for multiple abilities or the like, only shapeshifting to the physiology and capabilities of a existent thing, usually a single Pokémon), so that's not an argument to stand on. I've also already gone on knowledge not being remotely the only criteria to have the capability to use/have a move, ability, etc.

Staff rank shouldn't matter to get a thread approved if the majority agrees with it, and is kinda on DT for not commenting to begin with, also please point example of staff "willing to accept this nonsense over Arceus"

I could just cite how the original CRT had quite a decent amount of of staff support until DT stepped in to debunk it, for a reason bureaucrats are where they are, I'd mention names but I don't want to unecessarily offend anyone. The site also has consistently overriden the opinions of multiple staff members if a bureaucrat thinks the contrary, this is the standard, and you'd have to change that if you disagree to begin with.

i'll be frank, i don't understand why staff even matters in this case, sure i get it for wiki related changes like our attack potency page, but this is something related to knownledge of the verse, if the staff is not knownledgable, their vote should matter less than a normal user's vote who are experienced with it, not saying DT or anyone else is or isn't qualified, just commenting on it

https://vsbattles.com/threads/pokemon-arceus-and-his-plate-abilities.141272/post-5035192

Also, staff generally have a better grasp of the site standards, which is important for the purposes of a CRT. Why do you think most CRTs require at least one staff agreement? To avoid Little Timmy from making Dora the Explorer Tier 0 just because she breaks the 4th wall.

is reiterating stuff because there was a thread before that only got the moves accepted for some inexplicable reason, which explicitly brought new arguments, and more importantly, organized them in a single CRT because they were put in the dozens of comments and pages of the IAM's thread, kinda making it impossible to properly analyse them

reminder that those arguments are supposed to work togheter, not as singular evidence, is not "okay this is why arceus has all the powers, oh and this supports it", is more like "types' moves and abilities use energy, energy that needs to learning and skill to mold and use, plates have both energy and have shown to use moves with them, arceus has the knownledge on how to use it, arceus should be able to use them"

i am neutral on arceus getting literally 100% of the verse's power tbh, but i totally agree that he should have all pokemon moves and general powers (like dex entries or anime showings, like gardevoir's black hole explicitly being done with "psychic power"), unsure on the passive abilities since we even have to choose which ability they have in VS matches for instance tbh but i'm neutral on that too

Sure, weak arguments together can make decent implications from where to gather conclusions from, but the thing is that such proof is quite lacking and requires a re-evaluation at best, especially considering you're conceding some of these arguments.

In PLA, humans literally go to Uxie for any question at all they want to ask him, why? He's literally the very concept of knowledge. It has Dominion over knowledge itself.

And Uxie is merely an aspect of Arceus

For the countless time, dominion over knowledge =/= knows everything

DT has also gone into detail on that here.

Humans asking stuff to Uxie just implies that it's smart, not that it knows everything per-say (as the thing you linked doesn't even states that), they also do the same to Slowking, for instance, which is just stated to have the intelligence of an award-winning scientist, which is still quite below Omniscience.

I disagree. The Arceus in the anime is a heavily nerfed and modified one who was made specifically for the movie.

Please refrain from using the anime's depiction of Arceus to discredit his status, as the director himself confirmed although he's Omnipotent and Omniscient, they had to resort to ways to nerf him.

It's pis

Not only we don't grant stuff to characters just because they're stated to be "omnipotent" or "omniscient", especially if you're going to rely on the name of its ability in Conquest, which is even less usable and would be like giving Absolute Zero to someone just because they have a move named that, which we explicitly don't as it's just a fancy name for our purposes, DT has also explicitly disagreed on this, as it's still a showing that may be used against claiming Arceus being of that nature.

 

[InfiniteDay]

Currently neutral, I will be following this CRT.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Using the movie as evidence seems very iffy given the director admitted to nerfing Arceus for the sake of the plot

 

[Lynieryz]

Disagree FRA

 

[Bobsican]

Using the movie as evidence seems very iffy given the director admitted to nerfing Arceus for the sake of the plot

The Original setting of Arceus is that of an omnipotent and omniscient being.
That the status of Arceus being omnipotent and omniscient is the blueprint for any usage of the character in any media.

The director asked himself one question. How do we deal with Arceus being Omnipotent and Omniscient?

And his answer? To make him incomplete, with missing plates. And the movie was full of pis and cis in order to make the movie happen

Kunihiko Yuyama, the director of the film, said, "There is an image and setting of an omniscient and omnipotent being who created the world," and there is an episode in which he struggled with the scale of this image when introducing it into the story.
As part of his efforts to express this image, he chose Akihiro Miwa as the voice actor, which had a tremendous impact, and his excellent performance, coupled with the release of the film, led to the widespread use of the term "Akihiro Miwa" or "Miwaseus" as a description of Arceus.

According to director Yuyama, Arceus was too powerful for the scenario to work in its original setting, so he decided to create drama by making it incomplete with missing plates, and to make it more convincing by including a time-slip sequence to solve the problem.

He only states that he made him incomplete to add tension in the plot, not that the whole sequence of events in the movie was nonsense, it still portrays how Arceus behaves in such scenario in such conditions regardless of what caused it, and as DT said, we rate stuff by what's shown in the first place, and so Arceus displaying this regardless is still an anti-feat.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Arceus being omniscient and omnipotent was too inconvenient to the plot, so the director nerfed that aspect of Arceus by making it incomplete with missing plates. Thus, using the movie for anti-feats is a terrible idea.

 

[Ego]

Arceus being omniscient and omnipotent was too inconvenient to the plot, so the director nerfed that aspect of Arceus by making it incomplete with missing plates. Thus, using the movie for anti-feats is a terrible idea.

Excactly

 

[y3p_owo]

I disagree FRA

 

[DontTalkDT]

Btw. I take it we don't assume manga stuff is canon to Arceus (anymore)?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Arceus being omniscient and omnipotent was too inconvenient to the plot, so the director nerfed that aspect of Arceus by making it incomplete with missing plates. Thus, using the movie for anti-feats is a terrible idea.

Then no feats from the movies should be on his page. It’s this picking and choosing which to apply is what gets me.

Either we apply all the writer’s decisions for arceus or we apply none of them.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Is there anything that's trying to still be added from the movies?

 

[Everything12]

Btw. I take it we don't assume manga stuff is canon to Arceus (anymore)?

Canon but secondary.

 

[Sniper670]

Then no feats from the movies should be on his page. It’s this picking and choosing which to apply is what gets me.

Arceus was nerfed for the movie, not amped. His actual feats are still valid. Anti feats are not because those go against the established character that the writer was supposed to use.

Either we apply all the writer’s decisions for arceus or we apply none of them.

I can see there being a varies tier, with a note mentioning the nerf.

 

[Hasty12345]

“Actual feats are valid, anti feats aren’t” is straight up cherry picking…

I say we disregard the movie in its entirety.

 

[Sniper670]

“Actual feats are valid, anti feats aren’t” is straight up cherry picking…

I say we disregard the movie in its entirety.

"Actually I made this movie with it in mind that Superman was 120mph, but we decided to limit him to 110mph so the movie can happen"

Why should we do anything else but disregard the 110mph here exactly? Because that's literally what happened here

Unless you want to say the actual feats cannot apply to 120mph, which won't work here because in this movie, Supes is 110mph. He's simply far more capable than the movie depicted it

 

[Hasty12345]

"Actually I made this movie with it in mind that Superman was 120mph, but we decided to limit him to 110mph so the movie can happen"

Why should we do anything else but disregard the 110mph here exactly? Because that's literally what happened here

And if Superman were getting blitzed by Taxi’s in that movie, I’d say the author’s intent is irrelevant.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Canon but secondary.

In that case, let me say that the plot of the Heartgold & Soulsilver chapters are interesting.
For one, in #452 the plates are called "energy vessels". Just as evidence regarding that other debate point in OP. (I also think it interesting that the universe seemed to have no alive creation trio until that chapter, despite being indicated to have had one in the past, but that's beside the point)

That aside, maybe one can explain Team Rocket using Arceus for their purposes as it just playing the part. Perhaps it seemingly not knowing the location of the plates until they were a few meters away from him is just Arceus not feeling like getting them (although it's kinda consistent with the movie).
However, if it were omniscient it wouldn't have lost its faith in humanity and need Gold to restore it. Nor would there have been a point to creating a challenge to humanity, as Arceus would have known the outcome in advance. Since in an alternate future this led to the destruction of Johto and Sinnoh as they didn't manage things properly, failure was actually possible in the challenge, so I'm fairly sure Arceus hadn't predecided the outcome or anything.

 

[Sniper670]

And if Superman were getting blitzed by Taxi’s in that movie, I’d say the author’s intent is irrelevant.

Author intent is relevant here and you're missing the point

Arceus can do anything anime Arceus can, because he's not nerfed. There are many things Anime Arceus couldn't do because he was nerfed.

 

[Hasty12345]

Author intent is relevant here and you're missing the point

Arceus can do anything anime Arceus can, because he's not nerfed. There are many things Anime Arceus couldn't do because he was nerfed.

No I get your point, it’s just a bad point.

 

[Sniper670]

In that case, let me say that the plot of the Heartgold & Soulsilver chapters are interesting.
For one, in #452 the plates are called "energy vessels". Just as evidence regarding that other debate point in OP. (I also think it interesting that the universe seemed to have no alive creation trio until that chapter, despite being indicated to have had one in the past, but that's beside the point)

That aside, maybe one can explain Team Rocket using Arceus for their purposes as it just playing the part. Perhaps it seemingly not knowing the location of the plates until they were a few meters away from him is just Arceus not feeling like getting them (also it's kinda consistent with the movie).
However, if it were omniscient it wouldn't have lost its faith in humanity and need Gold to restore it. Nor would there have been a point to creating a challenge to humanity, as Arceus would have known the outcome in advance. Since in an alternate future this led to the destruction of Johto and Sinnoh as they didn't manage things properly, failure was actually possible in the challenge, so I'm fairly sure Arceus hadn't predecided the outcome or anything.

Arceus nature has been proven time and time again that he poses a test for humanity.
The entire arc was Arceus testing humans. Mentioned at the end. All he did was to pose a test
And I'm not sure what you mean.

Plus, he did not have his plates then. So it's a nerf anyway. Which is why Arceus getting all of them is mentioned that his "full power has returned".

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Arceus nature has been proven time and time again that he poses a test for humanity.
The entire arc was Arceus testing humans. Mentioned at the end. All he did was to pose a test
And I'm not sure what you mean.

Plus, he did not have his plates then. So it's a nerf anyway. Which is why Arceus getting all of them is mentioned that his "full power has returned".

He knows this. He's mentioning that the fact he even tested them means he doesn't possess true omniscience, as he would have already known the answer.

 

[Sniper670]

No I get your point, it’s just a bad point.

The creator of the movie says Arceus was too powerful for the scenario to work in its Original Setting, which is that of an Omnipotent and Omniscient being. The simple fact here is that he's nerfed.

Are you positing that there are things that Arceus wouldn't be able to do? I'm just going to be Xxkingxx69 and ask you to prove it

I see no reason there can't be "Same as before, but vastly improved". With a note at the bottom mentioning the nerf

 

[Sniper670]

He knows this. He's mentioning that the fact he even tested them means he doesn't possess true omniscience, as he would have already known the answer.

He didn't have any plates, so he's nerfed. I mentioned that in my reply.

 

[Hasty12345]

The creator of the movie says Arceus was too powerful for the scenario to work in its Original Setting, which is that of an Omnipotent and Omniscient being. The simple fact here is that he's nerfed.

Are you positing that there are things that Arceus wouldn't be able to do? I'm just going to be Xxkingxx69 and ask you to prove it

I see no reason there can't be "Same as before, but vastly improved". With a note at the bottom mentioning the nerf

The fact he can be depowered and needs the plates proves he’s not omnipotent.

 

[Sniper670]

The fact he can be depowered and needs the plates proves he’s not omnipotent.

If Arceus needed the plates that much, they wouldn't be scattered accross the planet and be used as chopping board. So no. He's not dependent on the plates going by Primary Canon, and he can easily create them if he wanted. The Legend Plate is literally all his powers combined, independent of the 18 plates themselves

 

[Hasty12345]

If Arceus needed the plates that much, they wouldn't be scattered accross the planet and be used as chopping board. So no. He's not dependent on the plates going by Primary Canon, and he can easily create them if he wanted. The Legend Plate is literally all his powers combined, independent of the 18 plates themselves

I don’t think you know what omnipotent means, or you’re purposely using it incorrectly.

 

[Sniper670]

I don’t think you know what omnipotent means, or you’re purposely using it incorrectly.

Omnipotence is contradictory. And Arceus fits that perfectly.

He can choose to lose Omnipotence(His plates) , or gain Omnipotence without his Omnipotence(Plates). It doesn't make sense. That's what Omnipotence is. NB: This is speaking only of the Primary Canon, which is the Original Setting

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

He didn't have any plates, so he's nerfed. I mentioned that in my reply.

So his omniscience depends on him having the plates? Isn't Uxie a part of him by default?

 

[Bobsican]

Omnipotence isn't even usable for tiering, so we wouldn't take that statement to any literal extreme either way.

 

[Sniper670]

So his omniscience depends on him having the plates? Isn't Uxie a part of him by default?

They're a part of him but that's what is being implied. He's.not complete without his plates, but he can easily create them if he wanted so it's a bit redundant

 

[Sniper670]

Omnipotence isn't even usable for tiering, so we wouldn't take that statement to any literal extreme either way.

Good. Because I don't know where you got the idea that I'm using it or anyone here is using it to make Arceus Boundless or Outerversal

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

but he can easily create them if he wanted so it's a bit redundant

When has he ever done that in the main games?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

They're a part of him but that's what is being implied. He's.not complete without his plates, but he can easily create them if he wanted so it's a bit redundant

How is that being implied instead of, simply, he isn't full omniscient?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

When has he ever done that in the main games?

Didn't he literally create the Legend Plate from nowhere?

 

[Sniper670]

When has he ever done that in the main games?

Pokémon Legends Arceus.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Oh Yes. I remember now. I was thinking of the other plates from the previous games.

 

[Sniper670]

How is that being implied instead of, simply, he isn't full omniscient?

The director mentioned although he's omnipotent and omniscient, he's incomplete without it

NB: No one gave Arceus full omniscience and I simply do not know where you saw it. The Heart is Omniscient, not Arceus as the Avatar because Heart >Arceus

After checking the intelligence page I can see the problem. But It's clear cut talking about the Heart.

Arceus intelligence rating simple doesn't exist there

 

[Ego]

Sheesh now it's a 4v1

 

[Ego]

I want omnicence to stay

Arceus other hax doesn't even matter tbh