A Small Change for Nil

[The_Causality]

Well, it's pretty simple, as everyone know, Nil is the Concept of Nothingness itself, more precisely, from the Primordial Void before and after creation, but there is problem to this, how to classify this kind of Concept? without more proof the concept is only type 3 but the problem isn't the character but the concept she embody which is problematic.

After a talk with Ultima Reality, we reached the conclusion than the Concept of nothingness (in this case) can't be nor Platonic and Aristotelia and according to him, we could classify this Concept as Nonexistent so basically a Concept which posesses Nonexistent physiology aka a Nonexistent concept, Kaltias seem to agree with this and tell me that her concept doesn't fit with our standarts but still exist phylodophy that conceptualize nothingness such has Hegel's

I think that doesn't concern only Nil, every characters which could exist as the Concept of nothingness without reality itself (so can exist in a total nothingness but still be categorized as the Concept of nothing) have this type of existence but i guess every charcters could have their own CRT about.

 

[DMB_1]

Aren't most primordial void considered Type 2 concepts?

That's what I've been told, at least.

 

[Elizhaa]

Aren't most primordial void considered Type 2 concepts?
That's what I've been told, at least.

True.

 

[The_Causality]

Aren't most primordial void considered Type 2 concepts?
That's what I've been told, at least.

Nah, normally it's impossible to prove that the concept of nothingness is Type 2 (without feat) since he always existed, you can't prove that the embodiment of this concept existed before it since it always existed

But basically, According to Ultima and Kalt, the Concept of nothingness has no type categorized in the wiki, we just concider it as a Nonexistent Concept.

 

[Elizhaa]

@The Causality, it is pretty much as you explained.

In that case, it would be Type 3 if it was valid.

 

[The_Causality]

@The Causality, it is pretty much as you explained.
In that case, it would be Type 3 if it was valid.

The problem is that After a discussion with Ultima, This Concept can't be Type 3 too, he is too complicated he doesn't fit in the Aristotelian concepts

So in rare case like that, according to him, we just concider this concept as non-existent

 

[Elizhaa]

Well, conceptual philosophies look to not support it so I am fine with the downgrade, @The Causality.

 

[The_Causality]

That not really a Downgrade but a change (more an upgrade too), it just make a Nonexistent physiology on her Conceptual existence so basically she became a non-existent concept instead of a concept

 

[Elizhaa]

That not really a Downgrade but a change (more an upgrade too), it just make a Nonexistent physiology on her Conceptual existence so basically she became a non-existent concept instead of a concept

Most would call it a downgrade. I am fine with the change, overall,

 

[DMB_1]

I wish I could help to classify this ability, but I haven't studied Hegel yet at school, so I don't exactly know what I'm getting into.

 

[The_Causality]

I wish I could help to classify this ability, but I haven't studied Hegel yet at school, so I don't exactly know what I'm getting into.

Me too, i need to improve my knowledge.

 

[The_Causality]

bump

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Pretty sure we have more character than just Nil that embodies the concept of nothingness. If we treat the concept of nothingness as something special, we should probably get more people to agree to it.

 

[The_Causality]

I think that doesn't concern only Nil, every characters which could exist as the Concept of nothingness without reality itself (so can exist in a total nothingness but still be categorized as the Concept of nothing) have this type of existence but i guess every charcters could have their own CRT about.

^Lewd boi

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yeah, but still. More input is needed than a french and italian boy arguing.

 

[The_Causality]

Yeah, but still. More input is needed than a french and italian boy arguing.

I've asked DarkDragonMedeus, Crimson Azoth, Wokista, Theglassma for now

and i'm currently fight against Bambu boi to comment here

 

[Mr. Bambu]

comment

 

[The_Causality]

comment

Meh

 

[Udlmaster]

Very interesting, I find this very fascinating as it is, and it goes with the idea of what I thought would be an interesting ability:

"Beyond-Conceptual Existence"


She obviously has Non-Existence Tier 2, and is beyond conceptual or Non-conceptual being, so very much so resistances to Conceptual manipulation, and Non-physical Interaction would have difficulties working on them, due to lacking even a concept.

She would logically have a good form of Regen, if she has any regen feats then she has High-Godly regen (based on the new system, not old, so you'll have to wait until the new system is implimrnted.)

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I

very much disagree with giving all of that based purely on "Exists as the concept of nonexistence"

 

[Elizhaa]

Her Non-Existence Type 2 was rejected from another CRT and changed to Type 1.

 

[The_Causality]

Guys

Try to not derail the thread, the main point is "As this Concept isn't platonic nor Aristotelian, we consider it as a Concept which is nonexistent" Nothing less nothing more

 

[Udlmaster]

I
very much disagree with giving all of that based purely on "Exists as the concept of nonexistence"

Well, if it lacks a concept in itself, then it would logically apply to all those.

 

[Udlmaster]

Her Non-Existence Type 2 was rejected from another CRT and changed to Type 1.

That's rather strange, as if their very concept is non-existent, then would that not be Type 2?

 

[The_Causality]

@Udl The verse only "possesses 3 Concept, "Something, Time and Nothing", she lack both Something and Time but as the verse doesn't show all Existing Concept we just consider that she lacks of only two concepts.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It doesn't lack a concept, the concept is nonexistence. Also, if you lack a concept you can just... have a concept on a higher level.

 

[Udlmaster]

@Udl The verse only "possesses 3 Concept, "Something, Time and Nothing", she lack both Something and Time but as the verse doesn't show all Existing Concept we just consider that she lacks of only two concepts.

That's very interesting.

 

[The_Causality]

Let's drop this subject now

What about the OP's proposal ?

 

[Udlmaster]

It doesn't lack a concept, the concept is nonexistence. Also, if you lack a concept you can just... have a concept on a higher level.

That would only apply if that is said in verse, but concepts don't function on any dimensional level, so higher dimensions wouldn't apply to concepts.

Higher Reality is kinda vague and I can't see a verse (Besides 1) saying there's a Higher reality that gives concepts, and there being a being who lacks concepts.

 

[Udlmaster]

Anyway, a Nonexistent concept is extremely weird and is wholely unique to itself, but besides what I've said, I'm not sure the goal of the OP, what are the answers you're looking for?

 

[The_Causality]

@Udl The Whole point of this is, in Nil (and other characters) case, she is the concept of the primordial nothingness and due to this exist outside of the Reality where Concept are created du to the birth of the Universe, this Concept can't be Type 3 or 2 because it doesn't shape/participate in the Reality and can't be a normal Concept since he existed before their creation so Ultima stated that this concept is basically nonexistent for summary, the whole discussion is here

 

[Udlmaster]

Then that be it, there's also the whole stuff I brought up above.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with what Ultima Reality is saying. He's quite knowledgeable with these types of concepts.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I don't think a full-on revision thread is necessary in this case. The types of Abstract Existence are generally their own thing separated from the frameworks we use to divide concepts, and as far as I know we don't really formalize or largely address the whole notion of "is character x a platawnic or ahristhotélian cawncept?", it seems to be mostly something that's brought up in VS Threads or whatever.

Plus, I wouldn't say Nothingness is really a "concept" per se under our current formal definition of the word, by which we really just mean a Universal; It is just the absence of being, so a character who can manipulate it just gets Void Manipulation or something like that.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Okay, so was it agreed to remove Conceptual manipulation?

 

[Wokistan]

Eh, what a verse does with something would trump the official definitions. If a thing refers to concepts of nothingness or archetypes that allow for the idea of nonexistence to exist, as wonky as it is it is till wat the verse put foward

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Of course, I can agree to that, but in cases where no further context is provided by the verse, we shouldn't rate Nothingness as an actual Universal, which is the framework we use to divide concepts in the first place. Burden of Proof should be in use here, pretty straightforward.

 

[Wokistan]

That take seems fine

 

[Theglassman12]

I'm down with ultima's proposal.

 

[Antvasima]

I was asked to comment here. Can somebody provide a TL;DR of the suggestions and conclusions?