23rd Budokai Tien upgrade to at least low 6-b, likely higher

[LordWhis]

Tien had a slight upperhand against 75% full power Goku when himself holding back slightly. He could somewhat compete with Full power Goku.

He should be much more powerful than a 75% piccolo who roflstomped Kami and somewhat comparable to a full-power picccolo. Piccolo was genuinely impressed by his power.

Him being less than a quarter as strong as Piccolo is laughable.

 

[LordWhis]

Bump

 

[Dust_Collector]

Where are you pulling 75% from?

 

[LordWhis]

Where are you pulling 75% from?

Weighted clothing

 

[Dark649]

Goku was still holding back since db characters can hide their true power, Goku used it only against Piccolo.

 

[LordWhis]

Goku was going all out against Tien.

 

[LordWhis]

Bump

 

[LordWhis]

Bump

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

How can you tell he was going all out ?

 

[Promestein]

He was not

 

[LordWhis]

How can you tell he was going all out ?

They both promised each other not to hold back.

 

[LordWhis]

He was not

He was. They both promised to go all out in the beginning of their match.

 

[Dark649]

Except that Goku did not used all of his power, even if he promised.

 

[LordWhis]

Except that Goku did not used all of his power, even if he promised.

Goku isn't the type to lie, also he was portrayed in a way that implied he was going all out.

 

[LordWhis]

If goku had been holding back, there would be no need for him to take off his weighted clothing as he could have just used more power, he also felt light and fast after taking it off.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Goku wasn't going all out against him, he didn't use his full power until his fight with Piccolo where it was made clear the two of them were leaps and bounds above everyone else including Tien.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

We need actual evidence other than speculation that stated he went all out.

 

[LordWhis]

@dust collector: read my arguments above

 

[LordWhis]

We need actual evidence other than speculation that stated he went all out.

He would never have had to take his weighted clothing off if he was holding back, he could have just used more power.

Furthermore, there is no speculation, Goku PROMISED to go all out.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Gokus fight with Piccolo proves that he wasn't going all put against Tien. He and Piccolo move too fast for everyone, including Tien, to keep up with, and Piccolos demon wave was so powerful that Tien and everyone else had to get in a hole for safety while Goku tanked the blast head on without too much fuss.

 

[LordWhis]

He Promised to go all out, hiding was probably comedic if anything and he is definitely weaker than Goku & Piccolo but still in the low 6-b category.

 

[Dust_Collector]

"He promised to go all out" doesn't mean anything if the entire Goku vs Piccolo fight proves otherwise.

 

[Dark649]

In the series Goku promises several things, but never kept them.

 

[Promestein]

Evidently he didn't. Everything else in Goku's future fights and even his fight with Tien contradicts this. He easily toys with Tien and tanks his attacks, and Tien is left pretty certain that he was holding back.

 

[LordWhis]

If Goku was holding back why did he take his weighted clothing off ?

 

[Dark649]

If Goku was holding back why did he take his weighted clothing off ?

To give him the impression that he was going all out against him, which he didn't.

 

[LordWhis]

To give him the impression that he was going all out against him, which he didn't.

That seems awfully far fetched

 

[Kepekley23]

Tien himself stated Goku was lying after he beat him:

Chapter: 180

Yamcha: "That was close…"

Tenshinhan: "No, it wasn't…Frankly, his strength was on a different level…To think that he's improved this much. What's more, that bastard…it seems that he still hasn't put out anywhere near his true ability. That's right…he didn't even fire a single Kamehameha…It hurts my pride…Just what the hell kind of training has he been doing?..."

 

[Promestein]

More far fetched is that Tien is somewhat comparable to the guy who blitzed him, tanked his attacks, and was said by Tien himself to have been holding back.

 

[LordWhis]

@kep: that refers more to techniques than strength.

 

[Kepekley23]

The very first sentence mentions strength...

 

[LordWhis]

I'm not denying Goku was stronger than him but not 4 times as strong as him.

 

[Kepekley23]

Goku was vastly above him.

 

[Promestein]

Truly a match of equals.

 

[Kepekley23]

1. Kami was watching the battle between Goku and Tien and he believed himself to be the only one in the entire tournament capable of doing anything against Piccolo, up until Goku revealed his true power.

He then stated Goku was vastly stronger than him.

Chapter: 180, Page 5

Shen: "Son Goku…I left most of your training to Mister Popo, so I'm not really sure just how good you are, but…I think I'm the only one capable of stopping this current Piccolo…'

Chapter: 189, P4.3-4

God: "Son Goku…He truly is a strange person. His power knows no bounds…It grows more and more as he fights strong enemies…That's how he's managed to so vastly surpass me before I could even realize it…He really might be able to win!"

2. Tien stated Goku hadn't used anything close to his true ability. True ability is ALWAYS used to refer to power in the series.

Examples:

Chapter: 304

Context: Kuririn says Freeza's final form doesn't look that powerful

Piccolo: "A good example of how you shouldn't judge someone's true ability by their appearance…He was far more cute before…Damn it…I had you go through all that trouble getting that wish granted…Sorry…But it really doesn't look like I'll be able to save you…

Chapter: 313 (DBZ 119), P6.1-2

Kuririn: "A-anyway, what's Goku thinking…He's starting to get one-sidedly beaten up…"

Piccolo: "He's not thinking anything…It's simply that Freeza's true ability was outrageously greater than we or Goku expected…"

These are just two out of a dozen or so examples.

 

[Jobbo]

Tien's a joke to Kami who himself is a joke to Goku.

 

[Kepekley23]

More examples of "true ability" = power on DBZ:

Chapter: 301 (DBZ 107), P8.4

Context: after second form Freeza starts fighting more seriously

Freeza: "You realized just now, right? That you underestimated me. But you're better than I imagined. That's what made me show you my true ability."

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P1.3-4, P2.1-4

Context: Goku says he won't return to the Room of Spirit and Time

Goku: "But I won't object if you guys enter that room again. It looks like you still have room left to toughen up more."

Vegeta: "What was that…? I don't like that…The way you said that made it sound like you're saying that your true ability is greater than mine…"

Goku: "Yeah, a whole lot greater, I think."

 

[LordWhis]

Indeed a match of equals

 

[Jobbo]

Goku was completely holding back, Tien had this to say about Suppressed Kami who is fodder to Goku:

Chapter: 181, P1.5-6 Context: as Shen and Piccolo fight
Kame-sennin: "Th…they're too strong…"
Bulma: "H…how can these two exist…?"
Yamcha: "Da…dammit…So that's why we couldn't win."
Tenshinhan: "There's no helping it…They far surpass any level ordinarily conceivable."

 

[Kepekley23]

You forgot to post Goku schooling Tien on why splitting yourself in 4 is a mistake right after this scene