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Well, Skyfathers and Hell Lords are 2-C while Strange is 2-A/Low 1-C right now lol, so apparently it is controversial.
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2-A/Low 1-C Skyfathers and Hell Lords
- Thread starter LordTracer
- Start date
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Fair point (although isn't Strange only that high with prep, equipment/artifacts, etc?).
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No, he’s 2-A/Low 1-C after the whole “merging with Eternity” thing. And it’s implied that’s not a situational thing, as Strange refers to that as the level of the Ancient One (who went through the same trials).
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@Sera_EX @Matthew_Schroeder @Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @Elizio33 @EmperorRorepme @Hykuu @LuciferDC099 @Newendigo
Your input would be appreciated here.
Your input would be appreciated here.
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I'll try to sort through Odin's stuff when I can.
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Question, would this also buff Cosmic Cubes' rating?
Edit: Also, Hela probably shouldn't scale imo. While Hela did power a sword that could kill Odin, it could only kill Odin due to him being in the Odinsleep (The New Mutants #83). Hell, it's even said that he's more exhausted than he's been in living memory (The New Mutants #82). Odin also rather casually killed and revived Hela in Thor #190. I'm also not sure if she scales to Mephisto, as she's been portrayed as being only slightly above weaker Hell Lords like Asmodeus and even gets one-shot by an Out of Realm Mephisto after (X-Factor #254). In terms of feats, unless I missed any, the only one I see is the Omniversal Armegeddon one, which refers to a war between their armies rather than a straight up battle. I actually do think this can be attributed to Mephisto, as when he challenged every soul in his realm to a battle together, none dared face him (Daredevil #279), but I'm not aware of any similar scan for Hela. If there's any feats for Hela to scale her this high within this thread I missed out on, just tell me.
Edit: Also, Hela probably shouldn't scale imo. While Hela did power a sword that could kill Odin, it could only kill Odin due to him being in the Odinsleep (The New Mutants #83). Hell, it's even said that he's more exhausted than he's been in living memory (The New Mutants #82). Odin also rather casually killed and revived Hela in Thor #190. I'm also not sure if she scales to Mephisto, as she's been portrayed as being only slightly above weaker Hell Lords like Asmodeus and even gets one-shot by an Out of Realm Mephisto after (X-Factor #254). In terms of feats, unless I missed any, the only one I see is the Omniversal Armegeddon one, which refers to a war between their armies rather than a straight up battle. I actually do think this can be attributed to Mephisto, as when he challenged every soul in his realm to a battle together, none dared face him (Daredevil #279), but I'm not aware of any similar scan for Hela. If there's any feats for Hela to scale her this high within this thread I missed out on, just tell me.
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Which page? Also, I'm extremely out of the loop on what's going on here, what's the citation revision? I could only assume it's adding citations to wiki pages.
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Strange directly admitted inferiority to Hela, referring to himself (as well as Wanda and Clea) as pathetic in comparison. Plus (already on her profile) Blackheart didn’t want to fight her and she easily dispatched Bor.
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Also I just remembered a feat, although I don’t have the scans of it on me. Didn’t Mephisto survive a blast from Franklin Richards? Albeit, he was injured afterwards, but it’s still a good supporting feat.
Oliver_de_jesus
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That's a confusing one. However, in I think Mephisto Vs. #1, it's revealed that he was temporarily dissipated and apparently attacked by Franklin right when he lost his amp. That seems to be what happened in the original story as well (Fantastic Four #277).
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Ah, so that doesn’t work as a dura feat. Never mind then.
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I still disagree with anything above the current level for Skyfathers it's a gross outlier and relying on composite, different cosmologies for Yggdrasil.
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A lot of the scaling isn’t even related to Yggdrasil though lmao
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Eh, you can get Odin scaling to a 2-A Yggdrasil with only 1 cosmology. For example:
- Odin nullifies Surtur's Flames (The Mighty Thor #21)
- Surtur's Flames could burn Yggdrasil (The Mighty Thor #18)
- The Nine Realms, confirmed to be Universal in size, could just be 1 part of an iceberg infinite in comparison (Thor #616)
- Odin defeats Seth (Journey Into Mystery #513)
- Seth was capable of destroying Yggdrasil (JIM #513)
- Yggdrasil exists on all planes of reality (JIM #507)
- There are Infinite Planes of Time and Space (Thor #390)
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Well, Marvel is very inconsistent in this regard, and Odin goes up and down in tiers like a yo-yo, but as I mentioned earlier, it does come across as a bit strange to keep him and Mephisto so far below classic Dormammu and Cyttorak.
Modern Dormammu is a pushover of course, due to that the Marvel writers all seem to hate the character, but nevertheless.
Modern Dormammu is a pushover of course, due to that the Marvel writers all seem to hate the character, but nevertheless.
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@Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Elizio33 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Newendigo
What do you think?
What do you think?
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Yeah, Modern Dormammu could honestly be 4-B, that’s how weak they’ve made him after Defenders.
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A little side note, but I hope Marvel and DC writers would fix up and take established lore/continuity (+power levels) more seriously.
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This is literally saying that the other infinite iceber is not part of yggdrasil
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I'm not sure about that. Here's the quote:
The Infinite Iceberg is Yggdrasil, and the Nine Words are just the tip of it. I mean, his point here is literally that there is more to Yggdrasil than the 9 realms.
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Um, if it means anything to you, I asked a friend of mine that knows more about Odin than me to comment on the thread.
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Personally, I believe that Skyfathers are within the ranges of Low 1-C. However, I do disagree with some of what Tracer's points, which I will list down below.
Disagreements with Tracer
Yggdrasil
Odin
Disagreements with Tracer
- You list the Forsung the Enchanter feat. However, it doesn't even state that the battle was waged beyond all time and all space, just some Asgardians stating that it will wage beyond all time and space. And as seen in the next issue, Thor (1966) #145, the battle was waged from one end of the Marvel Universe to the other. While you can argue the Asgardian Realms to being Low 1-C due to them being their own space-time continuum, as stated more than once, that would open a whole new can of worms.
- That isn't the normal Surtur we know. That was a Surtur that had the gifts of the Engels. It isn't really the normal Surtur we know. Not only that, but those flames can be argued to be overtime, as it had to build up energy. Hell, it can even be argued that it wasn't capable of the multiverse, as the Engel-Craft was destroyed by the Engels, ordered by Master Wilson, and Surtur even supports this. In fact, Kid Loki does an implication that supports all the points I mentioned, as he says, "...Of course, he's Surtur, the maker, the infernal builder. Like fire itself, he's always been building towards a bigger, better inferno." And Surtur even confirms this, saying, "This fire grows, as fire does."
Yggdrasil
- As stated by quantum cosmologist Eric Solvang, "Okay. I believe--and I have the science to show--basically, there are infinite universes, infinite possibilities. Somewhere, there's a universe where you're telling me this stuff. Somewhere, we're both dead. Somewhere, we never existed. Anything that can exists, does exists, within the grand scheme of spacetime. A quantum metaverse." And goes onto say in that very same scan that the Asgardian version of that--Yggdrasil, the Odin Ash--is true. Another thing that supports this is that Thor states, "The World Tree spans space and time, growing in directions of which we can scarcely conceive." This is supported by Heimdall, who states, "All of space and time laid out before me. The whole of World Tree and its branches. Infinite in its complexities and yet so simple to my starry eyes."
- This is no one-off statement, as Heimdall has consistently used space and time to describe the span of his senses. Not one time, not two times, not even three times, but more than four times. And the reason why he can see all of that is because of looking through the whole of the World Tree and its branches. He even states that it has infinite complexities. In fact, Heimdall's sight and hearing ability spans creation, which is supported by the fact that destroying the World Tree would destroy all of creation. And as said by Surtur, undoing the World Tree would undo all creation.
- Avalon, also known as the Otherworld, is sustained within Yggdrasil, as burning Yggdrasil would burn Otherworld, and as seen in that last scan, Otherworld connects to all the multiverse. Surtur supports this, as he states, "Otherworld is the home of all magic. It connects with all other realms. To strike a match there would make all realities a pyre, all universes kindling. I am the father of all cataclysms, Loki." Loki also supports this in the next issue, as he states, "...Otherworld connects to the whole of the Multiverse. It touches all the cards on deck. When he vents fire through the Manchester Gods, it'll engulf all realities."
- These fires could even be argued to still be a threat to the whole Multiverse, as those flames were stated that the flames consume all reality (though, as I said earlier, it can be argued as a chain reaction of some sorts), and as Lord Tracer mentions before, Yggdrasil exists on all planes of reality, and also happens to be trans-dimensional. And in Thor: The Lost Gods, destroying Yggdrasil would eradicate all life in the Multiverse.
Odin
- Seth states that, even in his own realm, a full power Odin would wreck him. This is supported by the fact that when Odin finally came to his senses, he defeated him easily, banishing him to his realm of death.
- Seth had enough power to destroy Yggdrasil, as stated multiple times. In fact, even his technology has enough power to destroy Yggdrasil. And Odin defeated this guy.
- Odin created the Odinsword, and as such, scales above it.
- Odinsword is so powerful that it stated that it can slice space and time itself, embodies the end of all things, and can destroy Yggdrasil itself. This is supported by mere fact that the only weapons capable of such are those on level with the Odinsword can chop Yggdrasil.
- To support this all, Yggdrasil was literally cleaved in half; split in twain by this very sword. This was supported by Heimdall saying, "During war with enemies beyond the veil, the World Tree was split open by the Odinsword."
- It can even kill Skyfathers, like the Serpent, who can defeat Mephisto if they fought directly. Backed up by the fact that Mephisto was petrified by the Serpent.
- Odin was able to nullify the fires of creation, which can burn the World Tree to ash.
- Odin is seen to be casually holding this flame (though this feat took place after the nullification, so it was probably already nullified).
- What makes this a particularly insane feat is the mere fact Odin did it while he was weakened, as this feat was done on Asgardia, which was located on Midgard during this time. Midgard weakens Asgardians.
- Odin slew Ymir and defeated Surtur twice.
- Surtur made the Twilight Sword, which can end or remake creation. It's also reality-warping and was one of the things that Morgan can use to reorder all reality.
- Ymir's blood was able to flood Ginnungagap, and his body was used to carve all creation and all the worlds of Yggdrasil.
- Odin created all the realms of Yggdrasil, as I showed earlier.
There are many more feats I could show, but this reply is big already.
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They demonstrate non-tier 2 and tier 1 stuff far more often lol.
Also taking Norse Mythology creation myths as literal in Marvel is extremely questionable because they change all the time. At one point the Ymir story was literally fake bullshit that Odin made up.
Also taking Norse Mythology creation myths as literal in Marvel is extremely questionable because they change all the time. At one point the Ymir story was literally fake bullshit that Odin made up.
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I disagree, as it's been stated more than once that all mythologies, though some contradict one another, they all basically coexist in this some odd system of belief, as stated below, from Thor Annual #10 (1966).
What this essentially says that all myths are real, even though they contradict one another. And it's supported again as recently as History of the Marvel Universe #1 (2019)--both by Galactus and the guide near the end of the issue.
Again, it's confirmed that all myths and beliefs aren't fiction. It's all true, as confirmed by quantum cosmologist Dr. Eric Solvang.
Also, about the statement of Odin's one eye saying that the creation story was apparently "fake"...
That was published in April 1980, and guess what, Thor still believes that his father did do all of these, as seen in Thor: Blood Oath, approximately 25 years after Thor #294. It's still taken as fact, not something Odin made up.
This was also confirmed in Thor: Dissassembled.
Wanna know why? Because Buri, Odin's great grandfather, confirms that what the eyeball told Thor was bullshit, and that Odin's word is the truth.
He's literally saying, "Um, Thor, do you really wanna believe a floating eyeball over your father, the dude who raised you to the badass warrior you are now?" And even if it wasn't what that meant, Walt Simonson retcons this and says that the creation myth really is true.
It's again supported by a statement from Loki: Agent of Asgard.
And about the "different cosmologies because of different writers," no. In truth, Yggdrasil does indeed have infinite universes, not just nine realms, and does indeed span spacetime itself. It's just that Odin hid the true size of it by the Asgardians, as there were universes and realms that shouldn't be discovered. And those statements are supported by Dr. Solvang's previous statements.
In summary:
- The previous amount of realms of Yggdrasil have since then been retconned, and it's revealed that there are more than ten realms in Yggdrasil, as Odin hid its true size.
- The eyeball stating that the creation of the world by Odin is nothing but a lie was, in fact, the liar itself.
- All myths are true.
- The creation legends are, in fact, true, as they're supported multiple times.
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I do agree with most of his points I recall mentioning on another thread.
Hellbeast
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With all due respectThere is a banned member who wants me to link to his responses here. He is mentally ill, but still seems to make some decent points.
Antvasima
community.fandom.com
Are we seriously using the word of a banned user whom you have admitted has obvious issues in this thread
Like I disagree with OP too but damn this is odd for you to do
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I'm sorry if this is coming out as mean, but why are you trusting the word of a clearly mentally damaged individual, and such a thing is seen with the way he formats his arguments. Not only that, but you clearly admitted that you had issues with him in the past. He is mentally challenged--that I know--but you had the right to ban him. In my opinion, he shouldn't have some sort of contribution in this thread, shouldn't have his word taken as truth--as that'd be the argument of appealing to authority, which is obviously not good--and, well, he's a banned user, and the reason being--from the information and description you've given me--toxicity.
Please note that my little brother also has mental issues (which I will not tell for the sake of privacy), and I don't want to come across a person who insults people for having a mental illness, for that would be offending my brother, too. Just note the fact that he's a banned member. (I'm also not reading it all because--and I'm sorry if this is mean--it's cluttered and messed up.)
Please note that my little brother also has mental issues (which I will not tell for the sake of privacy), and I don't want to come across a person who insults people for having a mental illness, for that would be offending my brother, too. Just note the fact that he's a banned member. (I'm also not reading it all because--and I'm sorry if this is mean--it's cluttered and messed up.)
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I'm only going to respond to the part responding to me.
Yes he did. He literally says he's explaining the Asgardian World Tree at the start of the speech bubble. Let's look at this quote one more time.
The Nine Worlds are a part of an Iceberg possibly Infinite in comparison. Based off of context, what he's explaining is the World Tree and he talks about how the Nine Worlds are only a part of Yggdrasil earlier in the sentence, so I can't see how he couldn't be referring to Yggdrasil. Sorry if I articulated this poorly btw. The next lines are pretty much just him saying that I'm taking things out of context, something I already gave my take on, so I'll skip them.
Sorry if I didn't make this clear before, I don't think Odin and Mephisto scale to Low 1-C. My preferred rating for them would be "2-C, possibly 2-A."
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