2-A/Low 1-C Skyfathers and Hell Lords

[LordTracer]

Alright, this thread has been a long time coming. There was a thread attempting to upgrade Odin to 2-A in the past, but it was rejected on the basis of being an outlier. So here I come, bringing examples from characters other than Odin to show that it isn’t an outlier.

Yggdrasil
We’ll start with this, because quite a bit of the scaling revolves around this tree.

• Strange absorbing Yggdrasil caused him to feel more magic than he’d ever felt before, meaning above his Classic self.
• Yggdrasil exists on every plane of reality.
• Saving Yggdrasil saved “all worlds” and “all realities.”
• Asgard is stated to be beyond the concepts of space and time in two different stories.

Surtur
This stuff is mainly adding extra context to what’s on Surtur’s profile, and showing why it would be 2-A.

• Surtur stated that he would be “the end of all things” and that he’d undo all creation.
• Surtur’s fire would burn not only Yggdrasil, but the entire multiverse as well.

Mephisto
Mephisto is fairly inconsistent, but at his peak (in and out of his realm), he is definitely on this same level.

• Mephisto easily captures Classic Doctor Strange in a bubble that the Eye of Agamotto cannot break.
• A fight between him and Hela would surpass Ragnarök, cause “omniversal Armageddon,” and be “annihilation absolute.”

Odin
Odin has a majority of the scaling here.

• Odin (who is weakened and thinking like a mortal) clashes with Seth, and that clash ripples across all reality.
• The clash was also tearing at the fabric of the multiverse.
• Their fight was also being waged on all planes of existence.
• Odin nullifies Mephisto’s contract, and is stated to be his equal.
• Odin’s death was felt across all planes of reality.
• Odin’s battle with The Enchanter was waged beyond all of time and all of space.

Miscellaneous

• Satannish, a rival of Mephisto, only felt “slight irritation” from being attacked by Classic Strange and Mephista, and he only needed minimal effort to throw them aside.
• Galactus, who has matched Odin and Mephisto, tanks a blast from Classic Strange with no ill-effects besides being knocked over.
• Classic Strange doesn’t believe that he can fight Galactus on his own.
• Galactus exists beyond time and space.

Conclusion
Skyfathers, Hell Lords, and those on or above that level should be upgraded to ‘2-A, possibly Low 1-C.’ This applies to:

Surtur
Mephisto
Odin
Galactus (Second and Third Keys)
Abraxas
Post-Retcon Beyonder (First, Second and Fifth Keys)
Celestials
Chaos King (First Key)
The In-Betweener (First Key)
Knull
Kobik
Mad Celestial
Molecule Man (Second Key)
Nyx
The Protege (Second Key)
The Stranger
Uatu the Watcher
Tyrant (Second Key)
Nick Fury (Second Key)
Modern Doctor Strange (Third Key)
Ghost Rider (Second Key)
Blackheart (Second Key)
Lucifer (Second Key)
Omega
Thanos (Second Key)
Franklin Richards
Reed Richards (Tier with preparation)
Doctor Doom (Third Key)
Bor Burison
Hercules (Second Key)
Old King Thor (First and Second Keys)
Thor (Tier with Godblast, Second and Fourth Keys)
Zeus
Cul Borson
The Destroyer (Second and Third Keys)
Gorr (Second Key)
Hela
Apocalypse (Second Key)
Yahweh

 

[The_Impress]

>:V there is already a revision going on, Tracer. I am closing this until that revision is resolved.

 

[Antvasima]

Classic Strange is not rated as particularly impressive without his equipment combined with preparations.

Hyperbole dialogue between Odin and Hela is not remotely reliable. Tom DeFalco tended to throw in lots of flowery language of this type into his stories.

Infinite can mean High 3-A as well.

Regular mortals can move around fine in Asgard. Being outside of regular universal spacetime seems like a more reliable interpretation.

Ditto for Galactus. He has not been portrayed at anywhere near such a scale in terms of feats alone.

Surtur seems to use hyperbole. He is constantly focused on destroying the 9 worlds, and that's it.

I do not have the time available to go indepth with everything here though, so further input from knowledgeable members will be necessary later.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew_Schroeder @Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @Elizio33 @EmperorRorepme @The_Impress @Hykuu @LuciferDC099 @Newendigo

Your input would be appreciated here.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I was against it back then and I'm against it now. We shouldn't be using stuff decades apart to support a rather massive tiering upgrade for already flexible and inconsistent characters.

 

[LordTracer]

I recently found several scans in relation to the Doctor Strange / Galactus scaling to add further context.

• Doctor Strange says the only way to fight (not even defeat, but fight) Galactus is with his assistant’s hat.
• Strange views Galactus’ strength as incalculable.
• Strange had to protect himself from a minuscule portion of Galactus’ energy.
• Strange uses Hoggoth’s power and only knocks Galactus over.
• Strange implies that Galactus could kill him by just clapping his hands together.
• Nova directly states Galactus hasn’t eaten in a while and is very close to turning his attention to Earth, meaning this is a moderately fed Galactus and not well fed.
• This moderately fed Galactus then goes on to fight Agamotto.

 

[LordTracer]

Hyperbole dialogue between Odin and Hela is not remotely reliable. Tom DeFalco tended to throw in lots of flowery language of this type into his stories.

Infinite can mean High 3-A as well.

Regular mortals can move around fine in Asgard. Being outside of regular universal spacetime seems like a more reliable interpretation.

Ditto for Galactus. He has not been portrayed at anywhere near such a scale in terms of feats alone.

Surtur seems to use hyperbole. He is constantly focused on destroying the 9 worlds, and that's it.

People being able to move in Asgard means... literally nothing. That doesn’t prevent it from being beyond space and time.

All your other points seem to just be calling stuff hyperbole for no real reason. Surtur’s statements is backed up by Loki stating his fire would burn the entire multiverse, and Odin and Hela both scale to Mephisto, who is shown to scale above Classic Strange (even with his artifacts), which would give backing to their statements.

 

[Antvasima]

The entire point of Marvel characters is that their power levels go up and down like yo-yos, including in relation to each other, from story to story. As such we should preferably use the consistency of their own feats for optimised reliability.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, we have extensively discussed these issues previously, with more knowledgeable members involved, and reached the conclusion that the current power levels were most reliable and reasonably consistent.

 

[LordTracer]

The last thread on this matter only brought up feats from Odin, not any from Mephisto, Galactus, and other characters iirc.

And the 2-C rating comes solely from Odin and Surtur’s feats, right? Well, 2-A/Low 1-C comes from Odin and Surtur, as well as Hela, Mephisto and Galactus, plus Satannish having scaling. There’s more 2-A/Low 1-C than 2-C.

Also all of the Galactus feats I just listed came from Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme, which is the story that brought in some of the 2-A and Low 1-C scaling in the first place iirc, so even if you scaled everything to just the story they appear in (which, quite frankly, sounds like an awful idea, imo), it would still end up with a moderately fed Galactus being superior to a 2-A/Low 1-C Doctor Strange.

 

[Newendigo]

My knowledge over the Sky-father like characters and Marvel huge cosmology is not the best at hand, so I don't know what to say here.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This is a huge outlier for Skyfathers.

 

[LordTracer]

This is a huge outlier for Skyfathers.

Please elaborate further when I’ve given feats and scaling on this level for people that scale to Skyfathers.

 

[Eficiente]

This is far less legit than how I remember it.

 

[LordTracer]

Can you like, actually elaborate instead of giving one sentence replies, please?

 

[Eficiente]

You already know certain things here aren't Low 1-C nor even 2-A, you don't make our job easier by not claiming what you claim from what feats.

 

[LordTracer]

That’s still not elaborating...

Several of the scans in the OP, and the ones I posted earlier, are of these characters scaling to ones that are already 2-A/Low 1-C, or affecting all of reality/creation/etc. I’d love to hear actual reasoning as to how that isn’t valid.

 

[Eficiente]

Why yes, in that comment I didn't elaborate there was in fact still no elaboration over why I disagreed with it. And yes you still agree with the things you claimed in the OP some comments ago. All correct observations.

 

[LordTracer]

So do you plan on actually evaluating the scans or...?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also a ton of stuff here is just composite cosmology applied retroactively.

 

[LordTracer]

Which is what every cosmic Marvel profile on the wiki does. We don’t specify cosmology.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I also disagree with this thread FRA.

 

[LordTracer]

What reasons though? Other than Ant, nobody has given a legitimate reason yet or actually evaluated the scans.

• Doctor Strange says the only way to fight (not even defeat, but fight) Galactus is with his assistant’s hat.
• Strange views Galactus’ strength as incalculable.
• Strange had to protect himself from a minuscule portion of Galactus’ energy.
• Strange uses Hoggoth’s power and only knocks Galactus over.
• Strange implies that Galactus could kill him by just clapping his hands together.
• Nova directly states Galactus hasn’t eaten in a while and is very close to turning his attention to Earth, meaning this is a moderately fed Galactus and not well fed.
• This moderately fed Galactus then goes on to fight Agamotto.

And nobody has even addressed any of this.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I agree with Asgard being a higher D place is wack due to stories like Sieg on Asgard where people like Norman Osborn moving fine in it alongside the Thunderbolts once stealing weapons from it just fine

Your Surtur scans are not helping to convince me this due to him seemingly treating the Nine Realms as a universal thing what with Loki calling it a universal fire and reversing the process, which I assume by that he means the creation of the universe

Also all the scaling to Strange proves what for 2-A?
It seems he needs prep or he summons other entities that are that level to get that level of power so unless there're statements that even after that the discussed dudes are too strong then maybe?
But then it becomes a massive mess since Strange is able to summon Master Chaos and Order in order to beat In-Betweener who should be an equal to Galactus due to them being opposites so you'll need to explain to me how Galactus is suddenly above said summons while not being fully fed (Which he was vs In-Betweener)

Also while I'm not the biggest expert on all the dimension stuff but for Yggsdril there as far as I get it no real proof they refer to higher D stuff rather then just all the universes, and considering other stuff in Asgardian cosmology like Asgard isn't that seems more likely

So yah I don't think it's really that solid

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Norman moved in asgard the kingdom not the realm. They are seperate things

 

[Antvasima]

I am extremely busy, so I would appreciate more elaborate input help from the people that I notified earlier.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, can somebody please summarise the actual feats here, not stereotypical flowery hyperbole language to sound impressive, actual feats. Thank you.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Anyway, can somebody please summarise the actual feats here, not stereotypical flowery hyperbole language to sound impressive, actual feats. Thank you.

Surtur flames going to destroy the multiverse
Odin negging the flames
Odin destroying the fabric of the multiverse

 

[Tllmbrg]

Norman moved in asgard the kingdom not the realm. They are seperate things

Eh scans?

 

[Tllmbrg]

People being able to move in Asgard means... literally nothing. That doesn’t prevent it from being beyond space and time.

All your other points seem to just be calling stuff hyperbole for no real reason. Surtur’s statements is backed up by Loki stating his fire would burn the entire multiverse, and Odin and Hela both scale to Mephisto, who is shown to scale above Classic Strange (even with his artifacts), which would give backing to their statements.

For the record if regular people can move there then that shoots the idea you need to be above space and time to be there, thus shooting down that piece of evidence
It's like how in Fate Solomon's temple is beyond space and time yet it ain't used to claim anyone is any tier because regular servants and you the player move fine in it

 

[Antvasima]

Regular people and aliens have moved in Asgard continuously throughout its history. It is definitely not extraordinary in that regard.

 

[Antvasima]

Surtur flames going to destroy the multiverse
Odin negging the flames
Odin destroying the fabric of the multiverse

Thank you. The "Everything Burns" storyline seems to be a genuine 2-A feat from Odin and Surtur, which fits with that Odinforce Thor recently killed a well-fed Galactus, but I would prefer input from other knowledgeable members.

However, Odin's fight against Seth seemed to be a 3-B feat with at least 2-A range, going by the descriptions of what was going on.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, if the skyfathers and hell-lords are upgraded to tier 2-A, we need to get rid of Galactus' "medium fed" 2-C tier, as it scales from Odin.

 

[Sandman31]

Thank you. The "Everything Burns" storyline seems to be a genuine 2-A feat from Odin and Surtur, which fits with that Odinforce Thor recently killed a well-fed Galactus, but I would prefer input from other knowledgeable members.

However, Odin's fight against Seth seemed to be a 3-B feat with at least 2-A range, going by the descriptions of what was going on.

No, context is important here since The Everything Burn storyline isnt the norm for Surtur. This has been discussed before but I cant find the thread. In summary Surtur is amped there, his plan also includes using the god-spores and burning the otherworld which would cause a chain reaction that will burn the entire multiverse.

They stopped Surtur before the reaction, Surtur self destructed and releases the "flames of creation" which was only described as a "universal fire"
Odin also didnt negate anything, he just channeled the blast away

This is one of those feats that just seems keep popping up but without the full context aside from that its going to destroy the multiverse

 

[LordTracer]

Loki isn’t stating Surtur will just burn Otherworld, which will then cause the destruction of the multiverse. He says that Otherworld is connected to the multiverse and basically gives Surtur’s fire a pathway to reach everything.

Anyway, if the skyfathers and hell-lords are upgraded to tier 2-A, we need to get rid of Galactus' "medium fed" 2-C tier, as it scales from Odin.

Moderately fed Galactus is stated by Strange himself to be superior to him, and he fought with Agamotto, who is also superior to Strange. So yeah.

For the record if regular people can move there then that shoots the idea you need to be above space and time to be there, thus shooting down that piece of evidence

If saying “X exists in this realm” isn’t evidence to make them higher-dimensional, I don’t see why the reverse ‘X can exist here, meaning it isn’t higher-dimensional’ would be true.

However, Odin's fight against Seth seemed to be a 3-B feat with at least 2-A range, going by the descriptions of what was going on.

How is “tearing the fabric of the multiverse” a 3-B feat?

Also all the scaling to Strange proves what for 2-A?
It seems he needs prep or he summons other entities that are that level to get that level of power so unless there're statements that even after that the discussed dudes are too strong then maybe?
But then it becomes a massive mess since Strange is able to summon Master Chaos and Order in order to beat In-Betweener who should be an equal to Galactus due to them being opposites so you'll need to explain to me how Galactus is suddenly above said summons while not being fully fed (Which he was vs In-Betweener)

Strange’s assistant asks him if he should prep for Galactus, and Strange says no because there is only one way for him to fight Galactus (and it’s not through prep or summons). And Galactus then fights on par with Agamotto and tanks a blast with Hoggoth’s power, both of whom are completely superior to Strange.

Plus the Eye of Agamotto was completely incapable of breaking through a barrier that Mephisto created while in his realm.

In-Betweener scaling to Galactus would just be an outlier then. Because Moderately Fed Galactus being above Strange is quite consistent when you consider:

A. Strange consistently and constantly admitting inferiority to Galactus, and directly stating that there’s one way to fight him (and that way isn’t through prep or summons).

B. Mephisto, who stalemated Moderately Fed Galactus, is superior to Strange and the Eye of Agamotto couldn’t break through his barrier. Satannish, Mephisto’s equal, could also easily swat Classic Strange away.

C. Strange stated after absorbing Yggdrasil that he felt more magic than ever before, Odin can nullify flames that would burn Yggdrasil, and Moderately Fed Galactus scales to Odin.

 

[Tllmbrg]

If saying “X exists in this realm” isn’t evidence to make them higher-dimensional, I don’t see why the reverse ‘X can exist here, meaning it isn’t higher-dimensional’ would be true.

Because if a person who's not higher D of previous showing is in there and said thing consistently happening (Going of Ant's word) we assume it isn't a higher D place?
Again fate has a similar thing and they don't go claim around that regular servants are higher D

Strange’s assistant asks him if he should prep for Galactus, and Strange says no because there is only one way for him to fight Galactus (and it’s not through prep or summons). And Galactus then fights on par with Agamotto and tanks a blast with Hoggoth’s power, both of whom are completely superior to Strange.

Plus the Eye of Agamotto was completely incapable of breaking through a barrier that Mephisto created while in his realm.

In-Betweener scaling to Galactus would just be an outlier then. Because Moderately Fed Galactus being above Strange is quite consistent when you consider:

A. Strange consistently and constantly admitting inferiority to Galactus, and directly stating that there’s one way to fight him (and that way isn’t through prep or summons).

B. Mephisto, who stalemated Moderately Fed Galactus, is superior to Strange and the Eye of Agamotto couldn’t break through his barrier. Satannish, Mephisto’s equal, could also easily swat Classic Strange away.

C. Strange stated after absorbing Yggdrasil that he felt more magic than ever before, Odin can nullify flames that would burn Yggdrasil, and Moderately Fed Galactus scales to Odin.

You do realise Strange can summon Master Chaos and Order yes?
If we're to take Moderately Fed Galactus >>> Strange no matter what (Because mind you Strange beat In-Betweener with summons) you're literally placing Galactus above those 2 which I really hope you see the problem with
Also yes In-Betweener an Abstract whose the direct opposite to Galactus nature being equal to him is an outlier and totally not the writers being dumb and not remembering Strange's summons truly

 

[00potato]

Wait if he’s the direct opposite to Galactus wouldn’t it make more sense if they were equal?

 

[Tllmbrg]

Yah he should be equal to well fed Galactus, arguably stronger due to Galactus beating via exploiting his nature

 

[LordTracer]

You do realise Strange can summon Master Chaos and Order yes?
If we're to take Moderately Fed Galactus >>> Strange no matter what (Because mind you Strange beat In-Betweener with summons) you're literally placing Galactus above those 2 which I really hope you see the problem with
Also yes In-Betweener an Abstract whose the direct opposite to Galactus nature being equal to him is an outlier and totally not the writers being dumb and not remembering Strange's summons truly

Galactus is stated to be equal in the pecking order to Eternity and Death, and we don’t scale him to them, now do we? Being direct opposites in the abstract hierarchy doesn’t mean they have to be equals. I’ve already explained why Galactus being above Strange is more consistent than him being equal to In-Betweener. Plus Strange’s 2-A/Low 1-C is not solely from summoning Order and Chaos, so...

(I’m going back to sleep so I won’t be able to respond for a while)

 

[Tllmbrg]

Galactus is stated to be equal in the pecking order to Eternity and Death, and we don’t scale him to them, now do we? Being direct opposites in the abstract hierarchy doesn’t mean they have to be equals. I’ve already explained why Galactus being above Strange is more consistent than him being equal to In-Betweener. Plus Strange’s 2-A/Low 1-C is not solely from summoning Order and Chaos, so...

Where?
Also with In-Betweener it matters way more since his whole shtick in battle is to summon the direct opposite force to something to battle them, even being able to summon death herself to counter Eternals, so if the force he summoned is himself in order to combat Galactus I'd assume he'd be equal at the vert least
Also either way Strange had to resort to summon the 2 in order to beat In-Betweener so if you're saying nothing Strange can do outside one thing can beat Galactus then you're implying either way that he's above Chaos and Order which again, I really hope you see the problem with that
Also In-Betweener also is vastly above Strange portrayal wise what with Strange needing to summon beings above him to win that fight, so I don't see why we're going the route of "oh Galactus is above everything Strange can do outside 1 option so we give that Key higher rating" instead of "Hmmm considering an equally powerful being who has beaten Strange as well is still below Strange's summons maybe we should consider this illogical and that the writers didn't consider some of Strange's other options" ?