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No, context is important here since The Everything Burn storyline isnt the norm for Surtur. This has been discussed before but I cant find the thread. In summary Surtur is amped there, his plan also includes using the god-spores and burning the otherworld which would cause a chain reaction that will burn the entire multiverse.

They stopped Surtur before the reaction, Surtur self destructed and releases the "flames of creation" which was only described as a "universal fire"
Odin also didnt negate anything, he just channeled the blast away

This is one of those feats that just seems keep popping up but without the full context aside from that its going to destroy the multiverse
Okay. Thank you for the evaluation.

We may need to write an explanation about this in Surtur's and/or Odin's profile pages.
 
Here.
Also with In-Betweener it matters way more since his whole shtick in battle is to summon the direct opposite force to something to battle them, even being able to summon death herself to counter Eternals, so if the force he summoned is himself in order to combat Galactus I'd assume he'd be equal at the vert least
Also either way Strange had to resort to summon the 2 in order to beat In-Betweener so if you're saying nothing Strange can do outside one thing can beat Galactus then you're implying either way that he's above Chaos and Order which again, I really hope you see the problem with that
You do realize that In-Betweener would also be upgraded by this, right? Because again, Strange is 2-A/Low 1-C regardless of Chaos and Order, and In-Betweener is superior to him. He and Galactus would still be the same tier (even though Galactus had the upper hand throughout most of their fight and it seems to be implied In-Betweener is only holding his own because of his nature as Galactus’ opposite and not raw power).
Also In-Betweener also is vastly above Strange portrayal wise what with Strange needing to summon beings above him to win that fight, so I don't see why we're going the route of "oh Galactus is above everything Strange can do outside 1 option so we give that Key higher rating" instead of "Hmmm considering an equally powerful being who has beaten Strange as well is still below Strange's summons maybe we should consider this illogical and that the writers didn't consider some of Strange's other options" ?
Because what is actually stated in the comic has more weight than you randomly assuming the writers don’t know something. Hell, you can assume his statement doesn’t include Chaos/Order, it’d still be 2-A/Low 1-C and moderately fed Galactus would still be superior, because he’s on par with Agamotto.
 
Loki isn’t stating Surtur will just burn Otherworld, which will then cause the destruction of the multiverse. He says that Otherworld is connected to the multiverse and basically gives Surtur’s fire a pathway to reach everything.

The events in Everything Burns started way back in Fear Itself where Loki made a deal with Surtur to free him. Surtur went on a quest to gather energies etc. Anyway, in order to burn the multiverse Surtur needs the Otherworld because its the home of all magic and because its connected to every realm. The energy he gathered can only burn the 9 realms without the Otherworld. If its truly a multiversal fire then it shouldnt need the manchester god or the Otherworld. It seems that the energy he gathered can only burn the 9 realms but it can burn all realities under a specific scenario which requires the Manchester Gods, prep and the Otherworld.

This a consistent thing in Marvel, messing with the Nexuses like the Otherworld or Mkraan crystal will destroy the multiverse because of their nature as nexus points of realities.
 
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Here.

You do realize that In-Betweener would also be upgraded by this, right? Because again, Strange is 2-A/Low 1-C regardless of Chaos and Order, and In-Betweener is superior to him. He and Galactus would still be the same tier (even though Galactus had the upper hand throughout most of their fight and it seems to be implied In-Betweener is only holding his own because of his nature as Galactus’ opposite and not raw power).
Ig

Here.
Because what is actually stated in the comic has more weight than you randomly assuming the writers don’t know something. Hell, you can assume his statement doesn’t include Chaos/Order, it’d still be 2-A/Low 1-C and moderately fed Galactus would still be superior, because he’s on par with Agamotto.
The other stuff listed for that Key isn't any better for scaling:

"unite with Eternity himself, causing him to become “one-with-all” and feel in many more dimensions than four. Could forcibly merge himself with the demon Arioch - who claimed to be "not even finite" and completely dwarfed Mephisto and Satannish in power and scope, rendering them akin to "mice in a great temple" - allowing him to fight evenly against Shuma-Gorath. Temporarily achieved a balance of power against The Infinity Gauntlet by using the combined power of every single magical artifact in his possession)"

Eternity scaling is wack and Infinity Gauntlet is again scaling above Order and Chaos which I again really hope I don't need explaining
Only one there that doesn't seemingly cause scaling problem from said Key is fusing with Arioch but that has him as above Mephisto so
 
Thank you for the evaluation Sandman. Would you be willing to add an explanation to a notes section in Surtur's or Odin's profile pages?
 
Eternity scaling is wack and Infinity Gauntlet is again scaling above Order and Chaos which I again really hope I don't need explaining
Only one there that doesn't seemingly cause scaling problem from said Key is fusing with Arioch but that has him as above Mephisto so
The Eternity thing doesn’t make him equal to Eternity, it just makes him 6-D (as the Ancient One has already become “all-in-one” and is still beneath Dormammu, who was significantly beneath Eternity at the time). Which is consistent because Strange is far, far, FAR beneath Classic Dormammu (and Dormammu would even know this exact spell due to the events of Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme).
 
I'm not very knowledgeable about Classic Strange so i can't give many inputs about him.

▪ Saving Yggdrasil saved “all worlds” and “all realities.”

"All worlds" and "all realities" here can refer to nine realms.

▪ Asgard is stated to be beyond the concepts of space and time in two different stories.

This doesn't mean that Asgard is a higher-dimensional place.

▪ Surtur stated that he would be “the end of all things” and that he’d undo all creation.

▪ Surtur’s fire would burn not only Yggdrasil, but the entire multiverse as well.

I agree with Sandman31 that this feat isn't 2-A due to Otherworld thing.

▪ A fight between him and Hela would surpass Ragnarök, cause “omniversal Armageddon,” and be “annihilation absolute.”

Omniversal Armageddon doesn't mean anything. At best you can say that this feat is at least 2-C due to Ragnarok thing.

▪ The clash was also tearing at the fabric of the multiverse.

Strange's statements are contradictory because first he stated that the clash was tearing at the fabric of the multiverse but later stated that the clash will imperil galaxies. Also other beings stated that if Odin loses then the entire universe can fall. This implies that the scale of the clash was universal.

▪ Odin (who is weakened and thinking like a mortal) clashes with Seth, and that clash ripples across all reality.

▪ Their fight was also being waged on all planes of existence.

▪ Odin’s death was felt across all planes of reality.

▪ Odin’s battle with The Enchanter was waged beyond all of time and all of space.

These feats aren't AP feats they're range feats.

▪ Galactus exists beyond time and space.

This doesn't mean that Galactus is higher-dimensional.
 
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Omniversal Armageddon doesn't mean anything. At best you can say that this feat is at least 2-C due to Ragnarok thing.
Omniverse is 2-A, that’s pretty obvious. And Mephisto literally said Ragnarök would pale in comparison.
This doesn't mean that Asgard is a higher-dimensional place.
Being beyond the concepts of space and time is Low 1-C.
 
Omniverse is 2-A, that’s pretty obvious. And Mephisto literally said Ragnarök would pale in comparison.

Being beyond the concepts of space and time is Low 1-C.
▪ Definition of the Omniverse heavily depends on context. You can't say it's clearly 2-A.

▪ Being beyond the concepts of space and time isn't Low 1-C.

Low 1-C | Low Complex Multiverse level: Characters who can affect, create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.) In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 5 to R ^ 6).
 
Definition of the Omniverse heavily depends on context. You can't say it's clearly 2-A.
Omniverse is quite frequently used as a synonym for multiverse, which can be treated as 2-A in Marvel, depending on the context.
Being beyond the concepts of space and time isn't Low 1-C.
Several characters on the wiki use transcending space and time to reach Low 1-C. And with Marvel, specifically, it’s part of Eternity’s justification.
 
Omniverse is quite frequently used as a synonym for multiverse, which can be treated as 2-A in Marvel, depending on the context.

Several characters on the wiki use transcending space and time to reach Low 1-C. And with Marvel, specifically, it’s part of Eternity’s justification.
▪ Omniverse in Marvel have two major definitions: collection of multiverses (size and scale of these multiverses are unknown) and collection of all of the fiction and reality. Can you provide some examples for 2-A definition of the Omniverse?

▪ Being beyond the space and time =/= transcending the concepts of space and time. Eternity is Low 1-C because he has higher-dimensional statements and scales to Classic Dormammu whose realm is higher-dimensional.
 
Omniverse in Marvel have two major definitions: collection of multiverses (size and scale of these multiverses are unknown) and collection of all of the fiction and reality. Can you provide some examples for 2-A definition of the Omniverse?
The “all of fiction and reality” definition is only used once in a handbook iirc, and we don’t (and shouldn’t) use handbooks 99% of the time.
Being beyond the space and time =/= transcending the concepts of space and time. Eternity is Low 1-C because he has higher-dimensional statements and scales to Classic Dormammu whose realm is higher-dimensional.
You conveniently left out the part with the Eternity-Mask, which specifically references the wearer seeing space-time as a narrative.
 
The “all of fiction and reality” definition is only used once in a handbook iirc, and we don’t (and shouldn’t) use handbooks 99% of the time.

You conveniently left out the part with the Eternity-Mask, which specifically references the wearer seeing space-time as a narrative.
▪ Yes it was used once but it never used as collection of infinite universes (if you have proof then you can provide it). In Al Ewing's Ultimates series "Omniverse" was used as the totality of the existence and in some classic series this term was used as collection of multiverses.

▪ Being beyond the space and time =/= seeing spacetime as a narrative.
 
Judging by Post-Retcon Beyonder’s last key, a collection of multiverses is still treated as 2-A so...

It’s the same principle. Also a synonym of the word transcend is “go beyond,” they aren’t fundamentally different things.
 
Also other than @Tllmbrg, nobody has said anything about MF Galactus being superior to Classic Strange and on par with Agamotto.
 
▪ Yes it was used once but it never used as collection of infinite universes (if you have proof then you can provide it). In Al Ewing's Ultimates series "Omniverse" was used as the totality of the existence and in some classic series this term was used as collection of multiverses.

▪ Being beyond the space and time =/= seeing spacetime as a narrative.
In Al Ewing's case, he said on Twitter that when he used Omniverse as a term, he meant the Multiverse.
 
Here:
latest
 
Judging by Post-Retcon Beyonder’s last key, a collection of multiverses is still treated as 2-A so...

It’s the same principle. Also a synonym of the word transcend is “go beyond,” they aren’t fundamentally different things.
▪ We don't have any information about the size and scale of these multiverses. In Post-Retcon Beyonder's case it was stated that he will destroy "the multiverses...the past...the present...the yet to be", so it's pretty clear that these multiverses refer to collection of 4-D universes.

▪ It depends on context. "Go beyond" doesn't automatically mean "seeing it as fiction / narrative".
In Al Ewing's case, he said on Twitter that when he used Omniverse as a term, he meant the Multiverse.
In Al Ewing's comics Multiverse = the totality of the existence (Universes, Higher Dimensions, Superflow, Neutral Zone, Far Shore etc.).
 
Transcend also doesn’t automatically mean seeing it as fiction or a narrative.
 
So what should we do here? Keep the statistics as they are, but add better explanations?
 
Okay. Is somebody willing to help out with that please?
 
The events in started way back in Fear Itself where Loki made a deal with Surtur to free him. Surtur went on a quest to gather energies etc. Anyway, in order to burn the multiverse Surtur needs the Otherworld because its the home of all magic and because its connected to every realm. The energy he gathered can only burn the 9 realms without the Otherworld. If its truly a multiversal fire then it shouldnt need the manchester god or the Otherworld. It seems that the energy he gathered can only burn the 9 realms but it can burn all realities under a specific scenario which requires the Manchester Gods, prep and the Otherworld.

This a consistent thing in Marvel, messing with the Nexuses like the Otherworld or Mkraan crystal will destroy the multiverse because of their nature as nexus points of realities.
So based of this Surtur needs a note saying something akin to:
Surtur's feat of burning the multiverse in Everything Burns does not warrant a higher tier due to him requiring both a power boost and burning specific places in the multiverse to cause a chain reaction
 
Hmm. We probably need something a bit more specific, but thanks for helping out.
 
Oof, I was waiting for the thread to reopen but didn't check it. Is it still going on or have things pretty much been decided?
 
Rn it ain't passed, just that we need to elaborate on the pages why some feats are invalid n' stuff
 
Alright, I see.

I just wanted to add one thing, while it may be hyperbole and if it's seen as such I totally get it, but in Doctor Strange and Doctor Doom: Triumph and Torment, it's said that Mephisto's Realm is Infinitely Transcendent compared to 616. I think, if taken literally/seriously, this would be 2-A, and Mephisto scales to his realm as mentioned in his profile with his fight with Satannish in Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme #30, his battle with Warlock from Silver Surfer/Warlock: Resurrection #4 (albeit a story written by Tom DeFalco, who uses hyperbole a lot) and maybe Silver Surfer: Judgement Day (the Galactus he was fighting was capable of threatening and devouring his realm), so that could be used to argue 2-A Mephisto. Of course, if the premise of the statement being 2-A is just seen as hyperbole, this is pretty much null and I get it, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

Edit: Surfer/Warlock #4 was actually written by Starlin, not DeFalco. Maybe I just got confused because he was the editor in chief at the time?
 
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Well, I do think that it would make sense if the Skyfathers and the Hell-Lords are not too far behind classic Dormammu and Cyttorak, but I am not the best person to ask.
 
There’s also the fact that Dormmamu has called himself the equal of Odin and Zeus on two separate occasions, and while that isn’t entirely correct (because Dormammu consistently scales to people above them), it should still show that the Skyfathers aren’t too far behind that level.

And like I pointed out earlier, a moderately fed Galactus (the same one that fought evenly with Odin) was on par with Agamotto, who is superior to Strange’s strongest spells.
 
That is true.

I would appreciate input from other knowledgeable members here.
 
Wait, on 2 separate occasions? I'm only familiar with the one from Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme #1 (one before multiple permanent amps for Dormammu, may I add). Skyfathers and Hell Lords are sometimes portrayed as equals/relatives to Dormammu (hell, Loki even says Odin doesn't dread Dormammu and even compares him to Loki in Avengers #115), but in other times it has been said that Dormammu is equal to all the Hell Lords together (Hellcat #2). Also, out of curiosity, do we distinguish between an In-Realm and Out of Realm Odin here? Because it's been said multiple times that every Asgardian besides Thor is weaker outside of Asgard.
 
Wait, on 2 separate occasions? I'm only familiar with the one from Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme #1 (one before multiple permanent amps for Dormammu, may I add). Skyfathers and Hell Lords are sometimes portrayed as equals/relatives to Dormammu (hell, Loki even says Odin doesn't dread Dormammu and even compares him to Loki in Avengers #115), but in other times it has been said that Dormammu is equal to all the Hell Lords together (Hellcat #2). Also, out of curiosity, do we distinguish between an In-Realm and Out of Realm Odin here? Because it's been said multiple times that every Asgardian besides Thor is weaker outside of Asgard.
There was another time he said it, I don’t remember exactly when though. If I find it, I’ll post it. Although Dormammu being equal to the five Hell Lords put together wouldn’t disprove the others being 2-A/Low 1-C, they would just scale to a lower end of it, basically making the scale: Doctor Strange < Skyfathers/Hell Lords < Dormammu =< Abstracts.

And no, we don’t distinguish In-Realm and Out-of-Realm Odin, we only do that for Mephisto.
 
Thanks, and I suppose that makes sense. Plus there are other times where Mephisto and Dormammu have seen each other with respect, so it's not like he's very far off.

Imo it would be a good idea to, but probably a hassle to implement.
 
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