2-A/Low 1-C Skyfathers and Hell Lords

[LordTracer]

Sorry if I didn't make this clear before, I don't think Odin and Mephisto scale to Low 1-C. My preferred rating for them would be "2-C, possibly 2-A."

I would be fine with this... if they didn’t scale above Classic Strange (who was one of the initial reasons for the Low 1-C upgrade) so consistently.

 

[Antvasima]

If he’s banned from the wiki why ask him?

I do not ask him. He has bombarded my message walls with comments on his own for a few years now.

He seems to be making some progress though. He is much more coherent than he used to be. He formerly used several accounts to talk with himself in some apparent case of multiple personality disorder.

 

[Antvasima]

Sorry if I didn't make this clear before, I don't think Odin and Mephisto scale to Low 1-C. My preferred rating for them would be "2-C, possibly 2-A."

That seems reasonable to me, but we need more input from knowledgeable members, and @ClassicNESfan and @PrinceOfTheMorning are missing.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew_Schroeder @C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @LuciferDC099

What do you think?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Like I said a lot of the scans are out of context, one of them blatantly doesn't show that Yggdrasil is multiversal but the opposite.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Supreme_odin]

Like I said a lot of the scans are out of context, one of them blatantly doesn't show that Yggdrasil is multiversal but the opposite.

Please list said scans that are out of context, and one that, you say, blatantly doesn't show that Yggdrasil is multiversal despite most of the scans I've showed are of more proof and import than one scan that says it isn't, in fact, universal.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There's nothing wrong with allowing banned users giving input, it's just that as long as it isn't all over the place or extreme to the point where it gets out of hand, it's okay. Or if people are banned for some kind of weird outlier, then that especially doesn't discredit their sense of judgement or positive input. It's more like sharing conversations from obvious or deliberate trolls, which not all banned users are, are what we can be concerned for; but rather it should be more the quality of the input rather than the source.

But anyway, in this example he is legitimately helping, so there's nothing wrong with linking it. But regardless, I think it's agreed that Matt and the others are making sense.

 

[LordTracer]

But anyway, in this example he is legitimately helping, so there's nothing wrong with linking it. But regardless, I think it's agreed that Matt and the others are making sense.

Yet none of them have said anything to counter the scaling Skyfather tiers have above Classic Strange.

 

[Antvasima]

Being above base level classic Strange is technically not particularly impressive.

 

[LordTracer]

Considering that Strange went through the same ritual as the Ancient One, which allowed him to become Low 1-C...

Also Moderately Fed Galactus fought evenly with Agamotto and Mephisto, the former being superior to Strange and the Ancient One and the latter effortlessly trapping Strange in a bubble that the Eye of Agamotto couldn’t even free him from.

 

[Antvasima]

We rate Strange on his own without preparation as 4-B as far as I am aware, and I think that tiering was made by PrinceOfTheMorning, who was our most knowledgeable member in this area.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

We rate Strange on his own without preparation as 4-B as far as I am aware, and I think that tiering was made by PrinceOfTheMorning, who was our most knowledgeable member in this area.

That's what I thought as well (and is the main reason I'm against Low 1-C). Although, he does say even with prep he can't beat Galactus if I recall correctly. Not sure how well-fed the Galactus they were referring to was though.

But regardless, I think it's agreed that Matt and the others are making sense.

I really hate to sound rude but I don't recall him posting a single scan this entire thread. I'm pretty sure his longest comment here was like, 2 sentences.

 

[Tllmbrg]

That's what I thought as well (and is the main reason I'm against Low 1-C). Although, he does say even with prep he can't beat Galactus if I recall correctly. Not sure how well-fed the Galactus they were referring to was though.

Again prep would likely also cover him being able to summon Chaos and Order so unless we get a specification on what he means that whole statement probably needs to be yeeted or it causes so much pain scaling wise

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Thanks. I guess it is probably a bit too vague, yeah.
Edit: Wouldn't the downscaling from Dormammu still stand though?

 

[LordTracer]

And again, when Strange was at Low 1-C himself, he referred to that as the level of the Ancient One (who Agamotto scales above, and MF Galactus scales to Agamotto). So he isn’t just at that level with prep time.

 

[Supreme_odin]

That's what I thought as well (and is the main reason I'm against Low 1-C). Although, he does say even with prep he can't beat Galactus if I recall correctly. Not sure how well-fed the Galactus they were referring to was though.

I really hate to sound rude but I don't recall him posting a single scan this entire thread. I'm pretty sure his longest comment here was like, 2 sentences.

I agree with you on this one. Matt hasn't posted a single scan. He didn't do any form of support and yet he's somehow credible?

 

[LordTracer]

Not sure how well-fed the Galactus they were referring to was though.

Galactus is stated by Nova to have not eaten in a while, and he’s close to setting his sights on Earth, so it’s definitely not well fed. And he’s still able to operate normally, so he’s not starving either. So, moderately fed.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Low 1-C Ancient One is an outlier.

 

[Firestorm808]

Regarding the OPs Odin feats, here is the timeline.

• Thor Vol 1 #144 | September, 1967
  • Power struggle with Forsung shatters dead planets and creates suns in its wake
  • Odin’s battle with The Enchanter was waged beyond all of time and all of space.
• Thor Vol 1 #185 | February, 1971
  • Battle with Infinity crumbles planets and makes galaxies fall, and threatens Earth from a great distance away
• Thor Vol 1 #188 | May, 1971
  • A portion of himself and his power controlled by Hela destroyed planets
  • Reabsorbs Infinity into himself
  • Undoes the damage to the Earth caused by his and Infinity's fight
• Thunderstrike Vol 1 #15 | December, 1994
  • Odin nullifies Mephisto’s contract, and is stated to be his equal.
• Journey into Mystery Vol 1 #513 | October, 1997
  • Odin (who is weakened and thinking like a mortal) clashes with Seth, and that clash ripples across all reality.
  • The clash was also tearing at the fabric of the multiverse.
  • Their fight was also being waged on all planes of existence.
• Thor Vol 2 #41 | November, 2001
  • Odin’s death was felt across all planes of reality.

 

[Antvasima]

Matthew is highly knowledgeable, and has done extremely elaborate analyses about fictions such as the Elder Scrolls in the past. He usually knows what he is talking about, even if he does not always have the time to make much of an effort nowadays.

Thank you for helping out Firestorm. I appreciate it.

 

[Supreme_odin]

Sorry if this is rude, but you should show, not tell. Specifically within this.

 

[LordTracer]

Low 1-C Ancient One is an outlier.

Based on...?

Also even if that was true, doesn’t change that MF Galactus = Agamotto > Low 1-C Strange.

 

[Antvasima]

How is Strange ever Low 1-C on his own? Calling on outside help does not count.

 

[LordTracer]

How is Strange ever Low 1-C on his own? Calling on outside help does not count.

As I’ve already explained in this thread, after becoming all-in-one, Strange is stated to feel in many more dimensions than just four, and this is not through outside help, nor is it only a temporary state, as Strange stated that was the level of the Ancient One. To quote directly from the scan:

“Feel, in fact, in many more dimensions than just length, width, height and time. Feel, in fact, as he had felt at the Ancient One’s level.”

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Matthew is highly knowledgeable, and has done extremely elaborate analyses about fictions such as the Elder Scrolls in the past. He usually knows what he is talking about, even if he does not always have the time to make much of an effort nowadays.

Thank you for helping out Firestorm. I appreciate it.

I wasn't trying to say Matthew isn't credible/knowledgeable, but rather that I believe it's a stretch to say it's easily agreeable that someone who has barely posted or given any evidence has the better arguments.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I wasn't trying to say Matthew isn't credible/knowledgeable, but rather that I believe it's a stretch to say it's easily agreeable that someone who has barely posted or given any evidence has the better arguments.

I think this holds some weight to it.

 

[Antvasima]

As I’ve already explained in this thread, after becoming all-in-one, Strange is stated to feel in many more dimensions than just four, and this is not through outside help, nor is it only a temporary state, as Strange stated that was the level of the Ancient One. To quote directly from the scan:

“Feel, in fact, in many more dimensions than just length, width, height and time. Feel, in fact, as he had felt at the Ancient One’s level.”

Highly enhanced perceptions do not automatically translate to several degrees of infinity higher power.

 

[LordTracer]

Highly enhanced perceptions do not automatically translate to several degrees of infinity higher power.

That Strange scan was one of the main points Ultima brought up in the initial Low 1-C upgrade, so...

 

[00potato]

I mean it does work as supporting evidence if he can see in the 5th dimension (Ancient one.) so I say it works good here.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

How is Strange ever Low 1-C on his own? Calling on outside help does not count.

Ultima proved that Strange even Classic Strange is nowhere near as strong as out of context hype puts him as.

He always has outside help or special items to fight cosmic beings.

 

[LordTracer]

Just gonna ignore him becoming all-in-one, okay.

 

[LordTracer]

I think a lot of the confusion here is that we tier Strange’s Low 1-C as being with artifacts and spells when it is, in fact, nothing of the sort.

As shown in Doctor Strange Vol. 2 #5 (the same issue that Ultima used for the Low 1-C upgrade), it is a new state of being for Strange, which is supported by him referring to it as the level of the Ancient One. It isn’t some spell he has to turn off and on, nor is it something he needs an artifact to do.

Basically, it should be an entire new key. His first key, Pre-Death Ritual keeps the same tierings (although the wording should be changed slightly) and his second key, Post-Death Ritual would be straight 2-A, possibly Low 1-C because it’s just a state of being that he’s at. And that is what moderately fed Galactus, Agamotto, etc. scale above.

 

[Antvasima]

We seem to be going nowhere here, due to to some of our most prominent experts quitting from the wiki, and the remaining ones not seeming to be very interested in this topic.

 

[LordTracer]

That, I can agree with. Although there isn’t much of a way to fix that problem.

 

[Antvasima]

Unfortunately yes.

 

[Firestorm808]

Sorry. I haven't had much time to work on the Marvel blogs. Also, the copy and paste issue is slowing down progress.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem. Thank you for helping out.

You can talk in private with AKM sama to see if he can figure out how to help you solve the copy and paste issue.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

I do not think that this thread seems possible to reach a conclusion for with several of our main Marvel experts missing from the wiki community, and the remaining knowledgeable members largely seemingly not particularly interested in helping out here.