DC Cosmology Revision

[Catalyst75]

I couldn't find one of the older revision threads, so I decided to share this here:



I know this may sound like second-hand evidence, but the idea presented by Scott Snyder in the interview is that the 5th Dimension and 6th Dimension do not correspond to, and exist separate from, spatial and temporal dimensions of theoretical physics.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Garchomp777]

Don't need writer statements for these. The fifth dimension is imagination. Imagination isn't a spatial dimension.The sphere of gods is beyond any measure of space and time. 5 dimensional space and 6 dimensional space count as a measure of space and time. This is Mxy explaining the dimensions. The third dimension isn't even matter IRL, the fourth dimension is not time IRL, and again, imagination isn't a spatial dimension


If anyone disagrees with Mxy being beyond just 6 dimensional, feel free to send scans that contradict these

 

[Garchomp777]

The Fourth dimension encompasses the source wall, the monitor sphere which is literally considered 1-A here. The Timestream is not bound by dimensionality at all. Again if you disagree, send scans to back up stuff

 

[Garchomp777]

Bump

 

[Sera_EX]

We don't need scans of our own to disprove something doesn't fit our standards. We are in no position to prove anything when the burden of proof is on you for making the claim. If your evidence doesn't stack up with our standards, it doesn't stack up. What you are implying is everything above the Orrery is 1-A, unless I am mistaken. That is an extremely bold claim to make.

 

[Garchomp777]

We don't need scans of our own to disprove something doesn't fit our standards. We are in no position to prove anything when the burden of proof is on you for making the claim. If your evidence doesn't stack up with our standards, it doesn't stack up. What you are implying is everything above the Orrery is 1-A, unless I am mistaken. That is an extremely bold claim to make.

What? There's literally a lot of evidence there, did you read it? And I know you guys won't make it 1-A,but at least consider making the 5th dimension beyond just 5D

I don't know why the burden of proof is on us to prove anything? Prove what exactly?

 

[Sera_EX]

Mxy is already Low 1-C though.

 

[Panpanpanjeidj]

Mxy is already Low 1-C though.

Perhaps it is because five dimensions are mentioned as transgeometric dimension in dc comics.

 

[Garchomp777]

Mxy is already Low 1-C though.

It should be higher since he is beyond godsphere which is beyond the bleed which this site agrees to being 5D. And why is Monitor Sphere, source wall and the source 1-A but mxy isn't? Im curious to know why

 

[Antvasima]

Grant Morrison very clearly established that Mxyzptlk is geometrically 5-dimensional in his "Crisis Times Five" JLA story. Snyder later established that it is also imagination, but given that Mxyzptlk's two extra dimensions encompass time and hypertime I suppose that they could be interpreted that way, since they encompass possibility.

In any case, we definitely do not have proof for such a massive scale of power from him.

 

[Antvasima]

@Firestorm808 @LuciferDC099 @Deagonx @Elizio33

What do you think?

 

[Garchomp777]

Grant Morrison very clearly established that Mxyzptlk is geometrically 5-dimensional in his "Crisis Times Five" JLA story. Snyder later established that it is also imagination, but given that Mxyzptlk's two extra dimensions encompass time and hypertime I suppose that they could be interpreted that way, since they encompass possibility.

In any case, we definitely do not have proof for such a massive scale of power from him.

That crisis times 5 one is an outlier and has been retconned, I mean the stuff I showed is more consistent

Him scaling above the monitor sphere is enough evidence, I think.

 

[Amakasu]

I think myx to be not linked to spatial dimensions is more consistent. I'll elaborate when I get time.

 

[Antvasima]

He has been treated as spatially 5-dimensional for a very long time, including by Morrison. The 5th dimension = imagination stuff was added recently, and if we are going to use it we need to treat Smyder's cosmology as separate altogether from most of what came before him.

 

[Amakasu]

Wha

Grant Morrison very clearly established that Mxyzptlk is geometrically 5-dimensional in his "Crisis Times Five" JLA story. Snyder later established that it is also imagination, but given that Mxyzptlk's two extra dimensions encompass time and hypertime I suppose that they could be interpreted that way, since they encompass possibility.

In any case, we definitely do not have proof for such a massive scale of power from him.

When was it described that way?

 

[Antvasima]

It was described like that during Crisis times Five. Qwsp said that he encompassed time and hypertime, and as Morrison envisioned it back then, hypertime is planar time.

@Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh

Would you be willing to help out here please?

 

[Garchomp777]

He has been treated as spatially 5-dimensional for a very long time, including by Morrison. The 5th dimension = imagination stuff was added recently, and if we are going to use it we need to treat Smyder's cosmology as separate altogether from most of what came before him.

Any scans? Other than crisis times five Because I think you guys are all tired of discussing DC, and I feel like if we sent more scans, the discussions can be a lot easier

Also, Crisis times Five took place during Morrison's JLA run, which had characters which would qualify as 1-A like Mageddon who was stated to be beyond the source and threatened the presence so it makes it easier to believe that mxy can be outerversal, possibly


Also, I have a question, why is the sphere of gods 5D when its beyond the bleed which you guys accept as 5D? I don't really get it

 

[Garchomp777]

It was described like that during Crisis times Five. Qwsp said that he encompassed time and hypertime, and as Morrison envisioned it back then, hypertime is planar time.

@Zensum @C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh

Would you be willing to help out here please?

What do you mean by planar time, hypertime encompasses the monitor sphere which is 1-A here

 

[Amakasu]

I don't particularly remember it, but I remember .But I do remember it being stated by zaruiel that the attack from the 5th dimension was an attack outside of creation, this would only apply to things he specifically knows which would include the entire godsphere which includes dreaming, Heaven, hell and such, and all of these realms are considered above the 5th dimension and I think it's stated that the dreaming is 1A. Plus it being said that the 4th dimension is time which quite nicely aligns with the 4th dimension told in the newer comics. There's things to suggest that the 4th dimension includes the time stream which can extend to the source wall, and myx actually told that the 4th dimension extend to the source wall.

 

[Amakasu]

So after I finish getting my scans I'll try to explain some things

 

[Amakasu]

What do you mean by planar time, hypertime encompasses the monitor sphere which is 1-A here

No, they hypertime dosent encompasses the monitor sphere, it's the 4th dimension which I guess is the time stream as both the 4th dimension and the time stream extends to the source wall.

 

[Qawsedf234]

1-A has been brought up before with the previously mentioned evidence along with other stuff; and still shot down. Personally I don't think a 1-A upgrade is the best idea but I'll see how it goes.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, as far I know, Mxyzptlk has been treated as spatially or spatio-temporally 5-dimensional throughout all his decades of history until very recently, including when first introduced Pre-Crisis and during his first Byrne-created Post-Crisis story.

Morrison explicitly treated the 5th dimension as two degrees of infinity higher than the regular universe, and treated angels, including The Spectre, as far more limited finite beings, so in this case outside of creation likely simply means transcending the regular local universe.

 

[Amakasu]

Well, as far I know, Mxyzptlk has been treated as spatially or spatio-temporally 5-dimensional throughout all his decades of history until very recently, including when first introduced Pre-Crisis and during his first Byrne-created Post-Crisis story.

I don't remember any comic saying that, if you have the scans please do so as this subject is very important for dc as a whole.

Morrison explicitly treated the 5th dimension as two degrees of infinity higher than the regular universe, and treated angels, including The Spectre, as far more limited finite beings, so in this case outside of creation likely simply means transcending the regular local universe.

Wait, no, zaruiel directly says that the threat's are beyond creation which would include the godsphere which is rated 5d here I guess, and I'm pretty sure the godsphere themselves have outerversal realms. I'll elaborate on it. I suggest everyone to look from a holistic perceptive.

 

[Deagonx]

What you are implying is everything above the Orrery is 1-A, unless I am mistaken. That is an extremely bold claim to make.

I agree, that's a pretty exaggerated claim.

The sphere of gods is beyond any measure of space and time.

To be clear, despite this description, there have been many descriptions of the Sphere referring to it in physical terms. For example, when Libra washed up on Apokolip's shore, he stated that he had corporeal form once more. This is the definition of corporeal.

The Fourth dimension encompasses the source wall,

Your scan does not support this claim.

It should be higher since he is beyond godsphere which is beyond the bleed which this site agrees to being 5D

How are you defining "beyond" here? The word beyond literally just means "outside of."

 

[Amakasu]

I agree, that's a pretty exaggerated claim.

I only agree with the orrery being 1A, seems to be exaggerated.

To be clear, despite this description, there have been many descriptions of the Sphere referring to it in physical terms. For example, when Libra washed up on Apokolip's shore, he stated that he had corporeal form once more. This is the definition of corporeal.

It depends on the context man. When libra had accended the physical plane, he then later was washed upon the godsphere, wher in his perceptive he is corporeal as in his view his body is again normal or that he has a form, that's what I interpreted from your scan. Plus there's a lot more consistent scans of them not being physical. The godsphere has many statements of being beyond time and space.

Your scan does not support this claim.

I think the scan means that the entire multivese upto the source wall is the 4th dimension, the 5th is the blood of the multivese and exists everywhere. Imagination also was used to re create creation.

 

[Lohx07]

I dont understand why you insist on treating it like two relationed things, since Scott Snyder retcooned the 5D with a lot of other things in the cosmology.

It's CLEARLY different from the old conceptualization about the 5D, and the same thing with the 6D for example.

 

[Elizio33]

He has been treated as spatially 5-dimensional for a very long time, including by Morrison. The 5th dimension = imagination stuff was added recently, and if we are going to use it we need to treat Smyder's cosmology as separate altogether from most of what came before him.

Wait, if i remember correctly, Grant Morrison said that the Fifth Dimension is Imagination.

Something i found interesting is in Snyder's Justice League run, the description of the Fifth Dimension was very similar to the Bleed's. Exemple: Imagination/Fifth Dimension is the blood of the Multiverse, the energy that flow between realms, suggesting that the Fifth Dimension is or is related to the Bleed.

 

[Antvasima]

Morrison changed his mind about the 5th dimension during his Batman run. He has been rather inconsistent regarding his cosmology over the years, including in terms of how many spatial dimensions it has, as it has taken him a long time to develop.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I found Mxyzptlk's first Post-Crisis appearance. There he says that he comes "from a parallel dimension" and that his 5-dimensional mind makes him the most powerful being on the planet. Nothing more specific than that though.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/A599vltavpjvez9EK5jilH6zkHTHqKYpMUbI2hDxzG234OPoHUYomkvvDW-pjErY-m9kLmsEK9cxPuuEZwnvOxPRlmFmruAxYyS5ve-vB5wQ5eQV9rvO9OuLAiXRNvJu5m40bwlE-Q=s0

 

[Garchomp777]

I agree, that's a pretty exaggerated claim.


To be clear, despite this description, there have been many descriptions of the Sphere referring to it in physical terms. For example, when Libra washed up on Apokolip's shore, he stated that he had corporeal form once more. This is the definition of corporeal.

Your scan does not support this claim.

How are you defining "beyond" here? The word beyond literally just means "outside of."

What? It literally shows Mxy holding everything up to the source wall and saying that everything there is the fourth dimension. And the fifth dimension transcends it all, including the source wall, which is extremely obvious.


When I say beyond, I mean transcend, obviously. And the 5th dimensional bleed is actually wrong, its rotating through the 5th dimension, doesn't mean the 5th dimension is part of it. The fifth dimension is a place which represents imagination and like I already shown, it transcends the monitor sphere

 

[Deagonx]

And the fifth dimension transcends it all, including the source wall, which is extremely obvious

Yeah, that's what I mean by exaggeration. I don't think your interpretation of what parts of his statements apply to which parts of the map stand to scrutiny.

The fifth dimension is a place which represents imagination and like I already shown, it transcends the monitor sphere

You haven't really shown that, no.

 

[Garchomp777]

Yeah, that's what I mean by exaggeration. I don't think your interpretation of what parts of his statements apply to which parts of the map stand to scrutiny.



You haven't really shown that, no.

I literally sent evidence that Mxy held the map of the multiverse which straight up includes the monitor sphere and the source wall and him saying its part of the Fourth dimension. Its not an exaggeration at all, its just blatantly stated like that

 

[Deagonx]

Its not an exaggeration at all, its just blatantly stated like that

Again, it really isn't. He's holding a map, yes, but your interpretation of how what he's saying applies to the map is a lot more nebulous than you seem willing to admit. It doesn't seem at all that he's saying the 4th Dimension "transcends" everything on the map, nor the 5th.

 

[Greenshifter]

Apparently there are 2 Mxy's in DC. One is actually 5th dimensional and the other one is outerversal for transcending the map of the multiverse, the former is a projection of the latter. The bleed rotating around the fifth dimension does not mean that it is 5th dimensional.

What you are implying is everything above the Orrery is 1-A, unless I am mistaken. That is an extremely bold claim to make.

Yet currently heaven which is a part of the Sphere of the Gods is applied as 1-A on the wiki, thus we're having an inconsistency with the rest of the Sphere. The scan in the OP also directly implies that Snyder changing the amount of spatio-temporal dimensions in DC has zero impact on the other realms in or above the Sphere. So even if we split cosmology by writer the upper echelons of existence would be unaffected. I am not necessarily opposed to splitting between writers though.

Now honestly I think nothing’s getting done here unless someone either creates a full on new blog for cosmology or adapts Niarobi’s and/or PrinceOfTheMorning’s blog (if necessary) and only after that created a CRT to discuss stuff. With strict rules on no derailment. Cause otherwise people will just bring up contradictory scans without any regards for consistency and we’ll get exactly nowhere.

 

[Amakasu]

Heaven is 1A?

 

[Garchomp777]

Again, it really isn't. He's holding a map, yes, but your interpretation of how what he's saying applies to the map is a lot more nebulous than you seem willing to admit. It doesn't seem at all that he's saying the 4th Dimension "transcends" everything on the map, nor the 5th.

I never once said any of that. What im saying is, the monitor sphere and source wall are part of the Fourth Dimension. The fifth dimension transcends the fourth dimension for obvious reasons

 

[Garchomp777]

Heaven is 1A?

Im not sure if it is by this wiki standards

 

[Greenshifter]

Heaven is 1A?

I haven’t been able to find an angel on the wiki who isn’t 1-A. (Also the fact that we can’t answer this with certainty is all the more reason for a blog)

Our standard are also outdated but I’ve also pretty much gotten confirmation that DC would still be outerversal (and I think the Sphere as well) even with our new standards.

 

[Amakasu]

Then myx should be 1A.

I haven’t been able to find an angel on the wiki who isn’t 1-A. (Also the fact that we can’t answer this with certainty is all the more reason for a blog)

Oh, ok

Our standard are also outdated but I’ve also pretty much gotten confirmation that DC would still be outerversal (and I think the Sphere as well) even with our new standards.

Yup. Also of topic: will ther be Marvel revisions? Can they be considered outerversal?