DC Cosmology Revision

[Deagonx]

the former is a projection of the latter.

Based on what?

What im saying is, the monitor sphere and source wall are part of the Fourth Dimension.

Define "a part of the fourth dimension?" Like they're affected by time or what?

 

[Greenshifter]

Based on what?

Good question, I don't know, most of the 1-A stuff I know from DC comes from people (way) more knowledgeable than me. I assume it's made clear in the comics somehow.

Define "a part of the fourth dimension?" Like they're affected by time or what?

The fourth dimension here means the entire structure on the multiverse map as explained and defined by Mxy, he does mention time but considering all of these higher realms have statements of being beyond time I think that DC's definition of time can be quite broad.

 

[Garchomp777]

Based on what?


Define "a part of the fourth dimension?" Like they're affected by time or what?

What they actually mean is the Timestream which transcends time and space and is not bound by dimensional space, which is very blatantly 1-A here

 

[Greenshifter]

Just a heads up Garchomp, there's a difference between transcending a concept and transcending all extensions of a concept on VSBW. I personally don't really see the distinction due to how concepts are defined but you have to prove something transcends all extensions of the concepts of space and time for it to be considered 1-A on here. (At least so I've been told but it's probably not completely how one gets 1-A)

 

[Amakasu]

Just a heads up Garchomp, there's a difference between transcending a concept and transcending all extensions of a concept on VSBW. I personally don't really see the distinction due to how concepts are defined but you have to prove something transcends all extensions of the concepts of space and time for it to be considered 1-A on here.

Godsphere trancends every form of space, and time stream encompasses th godsphere

 

[Greenshifter]

Time stream does? Don't you mean hypertime? Cause the timestream is below/at the edge off the Speed Force Wall I think and the wall itself is below the sphere according to the map.

 

[Amakasu]

Time stream does? Don't you mean hypertime? Cause the timestream is below/at the edge off the Speed Force Wall I think and the wall itself is below the sphere according to the map.

I made a mistake, yes hypertime.

 

[Antvasima]

Just a note that regular angels, such as Zauriel, and even King-Angels, such as Asmodel, are at best only on a level with high-level regular superheroes, such as Superman, in Morrison's cosmology.

 

[Amakasu]

Just a note that regular angels, such as Zauriel, and even King-Angels, such as Asmodel, are at best only on a level with high-level regular superheroes, such as Superman, in Morrison's cosmology.

These angles get weakned when they come in the normal plane. Also plus wdym by Morrison cosmology? Morrison dosent own dc.

 

[Greenshifter]

Oh they do?

Ant wants to basically splice the cosmology between writers. I’m not opposed to the idea but we should just make sure we actually know what each writer’s idea of the cosmology is before we decide to splice.

 

[Antvasima]

Morrison doesn't have a high opinion about the stature of DC's heaven or angels, whereas others, such as Mike Carey or J.M. DeMatteis, portray them as enormously more powerful.

Also, in my experience the editors are generally do not care or know enough to remotely keep the cosmology or even part of the continuity straight between different writers.

And the businessmen who truly own the DC Comics trademarks almost exclusively care about what brings them considerable profit, i.e. the movies, video games, and licensing deals, not the comic books, as they sell very badly.

 

[Amakasu]

Oh they do?

Ant wants to basically splice the cosmology between writers. I’m not opposed to the idea but we should just make sure we actually know what each writer’s idea of the cosmology is before we decide to splice.

But why? Why does the writer have to do anything exactly? They just write the comic and we analyze their work for interpretation. One writer contributes to the greater dc and we should look for the consistency rather than simply removing everything.

This would severally weaken some characters.

 

[Antvasima]

The main cosmology branches are the one for Vertigo, i.e. mainly Gaiman and Carey, and the official one, i.e. Morrison and Snyder. If we should count offhanded philosophical mentions from DeMatteis and others, that nobody else in the company remembers or adheres to, it should probably be done in a separate statistics key.

 

[Greenshifter]

Morrison doesn't have a high opinion about the stature of DC's heaven or angels, whereas others, such as Mike Carey or J.M. DeMatteis, portray them as enormously more powerful.

I’ve gotten information that Morrison actually has one of the highest interpretations of DC cosmology there is.

We shouldn’t derail much further on this topic though. Let’s just create those blogs first because arguing splicing between writers is necessary when we aren’t even sure what the cosmology is for each writer is pointless.

 

[Amakasu]

Morrison doesn't have a high opinion about the stature of DC's heaven or angels, whereas others, such as Mike Carey or J.M. DeMatteis, portray them as enormously more powerful.

I didn't knew dematties treats the angels that powerful but could be wrong. Mike Carey literally butchered the angles, lol. They were getting negged by musubi. Neil gaimain who is the one who gives Angles 1A feat.

Also, in my experience the editors are generally do not care or know enough to remotely keep the cosmology or even part of the continuity straight between different writers.

The editors are people who keep the verse as consistent as it is despite how big dc is. The writers basically present their ideas, then they work with the team, and then they give the work to the editorial staff to get checked. That's why twitter statements and author statements means very little.

And the businessmen who truly own the DC Comics trademarks almost exclusively care about what brings them considerable profit, i.e. the movies, video games, and licensing deals, not the comic books, as they sell very badly.

Ok?

 

[Antvasima]

But why? Why does the writer have to do anything exactly? They just write the comic and we analyze their work for interpretation. One writer contributes to the greater dc and we should look for the consistency rather than simply removing everything.

This would severally weaken some characters.

Because there are serious contradictions with the portrayals of the power levels for the characters. This would give us more flexibility in scaling the characters without too massive contradictions.

 

[Garchomp777]

Morrison doesn't have a high opinion about the stature of DC's heaven or angels, whereas others, such as Mike Carey or J.M. DeMatteis, portray them as enormously more powerful.

Also, in my experience the editors are generally do not care or know enough to remotely keep the cosmology or even part of the continuity straight between different writers.

And the businessmen who truly own the DC Comics trademarks almost exclusively care about what brings them considerable profit, i.e. the movies, video games, and licensing deals, not the comic books, as they sell very badly.

We are scaling DC Comics, we use DC Comics for information on scaling. We're not scaling the writer's intention. A writer's opinion on something is just as unreliable as a random guy on a street. What we use is the one that's more consistent, so we here trying to gather enough evidence to come to a conclusion on the most consistent one



Also, the angels like Zauriel are all portrayed as Superman level because they're on Earth. This site already agrees to realms in the godsphere like Heaven being far larger than the multiverse, thats why you increase your size and dimensionality while entering the godsphere. Its what the new gods do

 

[Antvasima]

The editorial department of DC has gradually been more and more deprived of people who truly know the franchise well since the Paul Lewitz days according to what I have read.

 

[Amakasu]

Because there are serious contradictions with the portrayals of the power levels for the characters. This would give us more flexibility in scaling the characters without too massive contradictions.

So we have to look for consistency. Lile boomtubes, they arrange the size of the new gods to fit the mortal multivese and they also do use Avatars. That's much better than saying of Darkseid got beaten by doomsday so he's a different writers doomsday.

 

[Deagonx]

The fourth dimension here means the entire structure on the multiverse map as explained and defined by Mxy

Right, but my question becomes: "What does it mean to be 'a part of the fourth dimension?'" I don't think when he refers to time on the Multiverse map he means the entire structure of DC, he's just saying that time applies to it all.

What they actually mean is the Timestream which transcends time and space and is not bound by dimensional space, which is very blatantly 1-A here

Asgard from Marvel is also called beyond time and space. It's mostly a buzz phrase that rarely corresponds to meaningful characteristics about a realm beyond saying "outside the spacetime continuum/outside of normal universes"

I don't know why so many people treat "beyond" as meaning "transcends" when that's not what beyond means.

We are scaling DC Comics, we use DC Comics for information on scaling. We're not scaling the writer's intention.

You're sort of missing the point. Of course we're using DC comics for information, but the information we're getting on any given topic from DC is wildly inconsistent.

 

[Antvasima]

I have far too many tasks to continue to argue extensively here specifically, but I hope that some knowledgeable members that I am talking with will be able to create some semblance of structure in the incoherent and contradictory mess that we have to deal with.

 

[Amakasu]

Asgard from Marvel is also called beyond time and space. It's mostly a buzz phrase that rarely corresponds to meaningful characteristics about a realm beyond saying "outside the spacetime continuum/outside of normal universes"

Asgard only lies beyond the mortal comprehension of time and space making them 4d.

 

[Deagonx]

Asgard only lies beyond the mortal comprehension of time and space making them 4d.

What is your source for this? And by what metric are you calling them "4d?"

Once again, being called "Beyond space and time" doesn't make you 4D, or transcendent, or etc. etc., it means you're outside the spacetime continuum, which is known as a universe. That isn't to say you can't be transcendent or 4D or etc. if you're outside space and time, it's merely that such a phrase doesn't indicate that.

 

[Deagonx]

I’ve gotten information that Morrison actually has one of the highest interpretations of DC cosmology there is.

He didn't say otherwise, he was specifically referring to Morrison's interpretation of angels/Heaven, not "DC Cosmology."

 

[Amakasu]

What is your source for this? And by what metric are you calling them "4d?"

Firstly you mentioned that Asgard trancend time and space right? In that context, the actual scans that say that mention it's beyond the mortal concepts of time and space or mortal comprehension of time and space, and humans can only understand the 3th dimension, making that statement 4d.

Once again, being called "Beyond space and time" doesn't make you 4D, or transcendent, or etc. etc., it means you're outside the spacetime continuum, which is known as a universe. That isn't to say you can't be transcendent or 4D or etc. if you're outside space and time, it's merely that such a phrase doesn't indicate that.

I never argued that whatsoever, I just said they are 4d because they are beyond the 3rd Dimensional space.

 

[Amakasu]

Also "beyond" can sometimes have different meanings to it. "My power is beyond yours" anything can mean anything if you look at the context.

 

[Antvasima]

This thread is too messy to ever lead anywhere, especially as most of our more reasonable knowledgeable members do not seem interested in taking part, and we get spammed with too unreasonable demands. I would personally prefer if we close it and wait for the planned upcoming revisions to start.

 

[Deagonx]

the actual scans that say that mention it's beyond the mortal concepts of time and space or mortal comprehension of time and space, and humans can only understand the 3th dimension, making that statement 4d.

Again, where are you getting that this makes it 4d or that humans can only understand the 3rd dimension? You realize both a 4th spatial dimension and the 4d concept of spacetime have been conceptualized by humans?

I would personally prefer if we close it and wait for the planned upcoming revisions to start

I would agree, this is a mess.

 

[Antvasima]

I will close this thread then. The relentless biased wanking efforts need to stop wasting all of our time. We are here to make our featured verses as reliable as possible, not squeeze the most exaggerated and inconsistent statistics possible out of them.