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J.M. DeMatteis (Marvel Cosmology Split)

Antvasima said:
If you write a summary post of the discussion here so far, I can send a notification to knowledgeable staff members again. 🙏
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VeryGoofyToddler said:
You can send the OP portion of “Why split the Cosmology” I think I highlighted a lot there.
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@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Deagonx @Elizio33 @Catzlaflame @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @IdiosyncraticLawyer @Maverick_Zero_X @LordTracer @Alonik @ProfectusInfinity @M3X_2.0 @Dark-Carioca @PrinceofPein

Your help would be appreciated here. 🙏
 
I do not remember well, but it seems like it needs more staff input. 🙏
 
Good news, I'm almost completely sure Ultima will view DeMatteis' The Divine Creator as 0. It directly is stated to be Matteis' and Everyone else's depiction of God. Oblivion may be treated as High 1-A+ (or not because there is implications that characters are as strong or stronger than him, like the Men of Lineage) . The issue is everyone else and the weird scaling/feats they have.
 
The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
Good news, I'm almost completely sure Ultima will view DeMatteis' The Divine Creator as 0. It directly is stated to be Matteis' and Everyone else's depiction of God. Oblivion may be treated as High 1-A+ (or not because there is implications that characters are as strong or stronger than him, like the Men of Lineage) . The issue is everyone else and the weird scaling/feats they have.
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Why is the Men of Lineage stronger, if I may ask? As for the scaling and feats, I can handle that no problem.
 
When asked if Oblivion was outside of the Dream, DeMatteis stated that no being was outside of the Creator's Dream. The Men of Lineage (more specifically Ted Salis) have control over the entire Dream and without it all of them would fall into nothingness. In the unreleased sequels to the Strange Tales variants (Strange Tales III and IV), marvunapp confirmed (which they got their information about the sequels from DeMatteis himself) there was nothing but Ted Salis and company remaining after the Dream ended, and only because Ted was trying to maintain the Dream, and when he failed to do so temporarily, no one else existed other than him after the Dream ended.
 
The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
When asked if Oblivion was outside of the Dream, DeMatteis stated that no being was outside of the Creator's Dream. The Men of Lineage (more specifically Ted Salis) have control over the entire Dream and without it all of them would fall into nothingness. In the unreleased sequels to the Strange Tales variants (Strange Tales III and IV), marvunapp confirmed (which they got their information about the sequels from DeMatteis himself) there was nothing but Ted Salis and company remaining after the Dream ended, and only because Ted was trying to maintain the Dream, and when he failed to do so temporarily, no one else existed other than him after the Dream ended.
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I think those parts are separated, if anything. Given Oblivion treatment is meant to be non-being itself, that’s not something that is created nor easy to destroy(if at all). If Oblivion is similar to the Sea of Brahma then the case becomes clear, even God didn’t create his own “unconscious.” We can use Seekers logic as well as Maya is the Dream itself, yet she’s suppressed and preceded by nothing, to which in Marvel, Oblivion is that same concept(excluding God being the primal ocean of nothing). I think the “Dream” being mentioned is more so can something exist outside of God, which is impossible, not necessarily what the Dream entails as something more than what Oblivion is. Since God being unconscious(Oblivion) is the reason for the Dream in the first place.
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
As some of you may understand I have been advocating with Ultima after this tiering system revision was being applied that DeMatteis's story isn't very congruent with the main Cosmology. While authors like Hickman, Ewing, and many others seem to at least follow a certain contunity with their storytelling by incorporating the works of others, that can't really be said for DeMatteis. J.M. DeMatteis usually always writes his story specific to his belief and on story that focuses on “Creation” does it really show.

Thus, this thread is intended to split J.M. DeMatteis's work from the main Marvel continuity and @Ultima_Reality will be in charge of overseeing the change in the main system rating for Marvel after this change.

J.M. DeMatteis heavily focuses on elements that he knows from his journey in life. This is a big example of his “God” character as a being that is not meant to be tied to just the comics, but a holistic fountainhead that is not tethered to just one religion though it's heavily Hindu-based. Now, J.M. DeMatteis writing is very flowery and hard to understand especially when he was experimenting more with the Cosmology. This means some interpretation can be put for these scans.

Worlds(Parallel Universes/Dimensions):​

In the Cosmology, Creation is split into levels or layers on different planes of existence. The most obvious one is the material plane/world in which Zenn-La is a prime example of a primary level of reality, a materialistic world that is an illusion to the higher realms. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #140)
Tiering: Given that there are infinite amounts of universes with their own space-time and there’s layers of transcendence between realities/dimensions, this would make the whole of the material plane anywhere from High 1-B(without R>F) to 1-A+(with R>F).

Higher Realms(Subtle and Mental):​

These realms are higher aspect of Reality and just like the previous mirror layers within the dream. As everything is a dream within a larger dream counting up as there are spiritual path. (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #135)

Tiering: The higher realms or more so the realms of thoughts which are the next level of consciousness(there’s four) transcends anything below it and trivializing it in size. High 1-A for these spiritual realms.

Nexus of Reality:​

The interconnect point of Creation also known as the OM point. Which links all worlds, universes, and dimensions existing on every level of Creation. Its destruction would also be catastrophic since that destruction will lead into all of the layers of Creation to collapse. (Spider-Man Annual 1999)
Tiering: The Nexus of all Realities is High 1-A due to being the connection point to all the universe, worlds, and dimensions. It needs to exist for every plane of existence and level of reality to exist and is the very Soul of Creation itself.

The Illusion/Dream/Creation(Eternity, Maya, Cleito): ​

All of Creation or the whole of Reality is nothing more than an illusion dreamed by the Creator, hirself. That all levels of Reality is a progression to realize that the Dream and the Dreamer are one and the same with God, in our own essence is that we are God. Creation takes form depending on the specific story, but they’re all “Illusions.” (Silver Surfer Vol.3 #139)

Tiering: Maya, Eternity, Cleito, the Staff, the Book, and the Fallen Stars are all High 1-A. All of them are direct aspects of God hirself and know that all Creation is just an illusion(some willing to accept it). They scale to the entirety of the Dream or even above being the Apexes of the Creational hierarchy. Lords of Shamballa either fall on this tier or are merged together with God, but most likely High 1-A+.

Oblivion(The Void/Sea of Nothing/God’s Unconscious): ​

Oblivion is the Void personified as the breath between life and death, death and rebirth, and all of the Creation cycle. He isn't lord of Darkness or Chaos, but non-being itself as the Void that preceded Creation and where all Creation will return and drown to when it is time for the Creator to sleep. He's true form is non-existence itself and gazing upon would erase anyone. The formless sea of nothing created an aspect of God that made infinity have a limit and formless to have form. (Iceman Vol.1 #3)

Tiering: Oblivion being the representation of the nothingness and the Void before Creation. He outscales all the previous entities and is possibly the Apex of Cosmology giving him the higher-end of High 1-A+.

As powerful as Oblivion is and as paradoxical as he may be. He does have one superior and that superior has his weakness: Love. His superior is the being that not only radiates Love but is it. (Iceman Vol.1 #4)

God(Divine Creator/The Dreamer):​

God or the Creator is the Oneness behind all things in Creation and the cosmic emptiness from which Self is the consciousness of its true power. That all of Creation is nothing but a dream to the Creator and Oblivion is simply an aspect of god as is anything in Creation. He is the Dream and the Deamer, Plan and Planner, Trick, and Trickster, and is beyond all illusions as the sole being that truly exists and only him alone. That everyone is God just living in the Dream. (Marvel Graphic Novel: Doctor Strange: Into Shamballa #26)

Tiering: God is 0, as he is the Oneness that underlines all duality, beyond Creation and Void, contains existence and non-existence. Everything is nothing but a dream to God in all levels and he transcends the entire hierarchy into insignificance.

Reasoning for the split: ​

J.M. DeMatteis takes his inspiration and route from a Hindu Cosmology which isn't related to Judaism much less the mystical side of Judaism: Kabbalah as the Four Worlds have no correlation in Matteis. Al Ewing structures Cosmology as narrative layers as opposed to dream layers and the level of consciousness. His God design is literally based on Adi Shankara's view of Nirguna Brahman and the Advaita Vedanta school of teaching where Creation is an illusion and that there's a non-dual being as the true reality from which Creation emanates through Maya.

  • The main Cosmology is based on the mystical teaching of Kabbalah. J.M. DeMatteis is purely Hinduism as he said the only character from Kabbalah is “Adam K’ad-Mon” which we see that the Primordial Man in Ewing Cosmology is Adam Brasher has much contrast to the former. One’s the archetype for Creation to come while the other is the progenitor of the lineage of men and the guardian of the Nexus in the Flordian swamps.
  • Creation in Ewing Cosmology is a narrative based on Keter(Assiyah) being the final part of the lowest hierarchy. The Divine Creator is meant to be the Paraatma/Parabrahman equivalent which the One Above All isn't the Ein Sof equivalent. Even then Ein Sof and Brahman are not the same beings and from different teachings with different perspectives on the Universe. Kabbalah rejects the teaching that humans are God living in his own creations since that's blasphemous to them.
  • J.M. DeMatteis bases his story always the same and introduces characters that are incongruent or completely ignored by anyone else. Hence why he never even refers to “One Above All” as a name especially since that said “person” is not actually ineffable, immutable, or unsurpassable.
  • The Fallen Star fits nowhere since they can't even work in conjunction with the One Above All or else they scale above the entire hierarchy except for the House if we were to introduce them in the main Cosmology.
  • The basis of Creation in J.M. DeMatteis is not the reincarnation of Creation embodied by Firmaments. Rather it would always come and will end at the end in MahaPralaya and those who do strip the veils hiding the True Creator’s face would ascend into a Golden Age, which is not universally shared by the main Cosmology. The only similarity in that part is the Mystery is a journey to unveil God’s face but Ein Sof is not the same as the Oversoul concept that all Souls are God living in his dream and return into his Oneness and back throughout countless reincarnations until all Souls ascend. This is a completely different view from Kabbalah.
  • Cleito and Adam K’ad-Mon’s relation isn't at all evident in the main Cosmology, much less Job Burke being completely ignored as the next person to have the power to become the Divine Dreamer. The Nexus also is a focal point and treated as the OM point which has somehow not made it in the main Cosmology. Other than some old Uncanny X-Men comics with Jean entering the White Hot Room and learning that the M’Kraan Crystal is a Nexus of All Reality and later said to contain the dwelling place of the Phoenix, which was then changed as the White Hot Room is a transcendental plane and the healing medicine of the Universe.
  • The One Above All has an alter ego of the One Below All contradicts the nature of God as a being that's Love itself.
  • The origin story starts with God forming an aspect called the Creator in his dream creating duality, and letting his souls have limits from their original existence where they're one with God. This has nothing to do with the main Cosmology.
  • Oblivion is directly the mind of God specially his unconsciousness that relies on the Creator as the being that contains existence and non-existence. He is uncreated, eternal, and not subjected to the laws of the Universe unlike Hickman's depiction of end-of-time Nihilism that is opposed by the Tribunal judgment.
  • Maya fits nowhere unless we consider it Eternity's female counterpart but such concepts aren't introduced in most of the main story.
  • Illusion or the main Reality is just a level of consciousness as such Gross, Sutble, and Mental Planne which is not all presented as the main source of leveling in Creational hierarchy in the main Cosmology.
  • Also, God is independent of everything hence why he would receive 0 which can't happen if he's one and the same with the One Above All.
  • The concept of the Quantum Sea or the Ocean of Dreams is the collective unconscious capable of making dreams of the entire hierarchy below doesn't fit well with the main Cosmology.
  • J.M. DeMatteis takes his works from the teaching of the spiritual avatar, Meher Baba. Ewing doesn't at all base or elude such figures given he either doesn't know him or he doesn't use his teaching.
  • The idea that God is unconscious and not interactive but only through Maya, illusions, and his avatars of ages doesn't really link with the One Above All.
  • God being used as a Magician was a nice analogy that depicts that he made Reality as his trick and all forms of illusion while the One Above All demiurgic fires near the primordial time have no effect on being like the Mother of Horrors.
  • Every Soul being God is a major part of the story. That everyone in their core essence is God just living in the dream and being ignorant of it. Which isn't how Kabbalah works.
I would like to add something for those who keep pointing out that his stories are written outside just his work.
  • This is true but it holds no real value. For example, his stories in DC like Green Lantern, Spectre, and Larfleeze clearly, the events that transpired are mentioned outside his own stories. Yet, we takes his view of the Cosmology over small things like this.
The Cosmology aspect is important because they're pretty much identical in every way in Marvel and DC and are only separated by name.

Example:

Divine Presence and Divine Creator also called God is the central figure in his Cosmology. A Oneness that underlines duality, precedes form, and always acts through some sort of Avatar. Literally, in Justice League Dark “Brahma-Dass” refers to God as a Magician that pulled Reality as his trick, and guess what? In Doctor Strange story they mentioned the concept of the Golden Age which surfaces across Silver Surfer, Man-Thing, and Moon Knight which in DC is mentioned several times as well. Into Shamballa literally calls God, a Magician, and that Reality is his trick, which is a shared element in his magical side of stories. Also, in an older Marvel story by DeMatteis, there's a character literally called “Shiva-Dass” as someone equal to “Brahma-Dass.”

Creation stories is exactly the same. God was unconscious then he had an urge then came everything: duality, consciousness, and Creation.

  • We have Oblivion describing Creation as coming from him and will return to him. Kind of weird since that's the exact description of the Sea of Brahma. Also, Mahapralaya and Pralaya have been referenced in both stories in the same manner: the dissolution of the Universe.
  • In Shamballa, Stephen Strange mentions Krishna's flute that will bring about Sleep. This idea was part of the “Night of Brahma” storyline in Doctor Fate, a vampire named Andrew Bennet played it to bring about Mahapralaya. Also, mentioned again in the Last One about the Krishna flute. The older story involving Shiva-Dass mentions the same flute as well. The weird thing is his Strange and Fate stories were almost released near each other in publication and that's not to mention that he was employed by both companies and went back and forth with his scripts between the companies.
  • Maya is in both companies. The same logic, the same name, and the same premise.
So, for the people telling me not to compare the two is one of my reasons. Then how are DeMatteis getting away with a composite Marvel Cosmology, but not DC? When his work is literally recycled and the same? The compression is very fair and very much should be a part of my reasoning.

DeMatteis Thoughts:​

I've talked with DeMatteis for a while and read a lot of his ideas from his personal blogs, interviews, and even statements across social media. It was never my intention to ask anything “VSBW” related.

However, he makes it clear that he doesn't fully actually follow conventional things rather his heart and from Meher Baba. This is the main reason that all his work is the same across any story. He jokes around several times about editorial and how collaborators keep telling do his “own thing” and his personal “ideas.”

He literally tells us in his personal blog that he bends, twists, and makes things up that the editorial and his collaborator workaround:







Agree: @Antvasima @VeryGoofyToddler @Elizio33 @DarkDragonMedeus @RigelBR7 @Hirotoswnn1x @Trigger @Eseseso @The_2nd_Existential_Seed @Yokoahh5743

Disagree: @Alonik @ProfectusInfinity @NHTkenshin2 @Roirr @BestMGQScalerEver

Neutral: @Hasty12345
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Agree
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
Oblivion(The Void/Sea of Nothing/God’s Unconscious):
Oblivion is the Void personified as the breath between life and death, death and rebirth, and all of the Creation cycle. He isn't lord of Darkness or Chaos, but non-being itself as the Void that preceded Creation and where all Creation will return and drown to when it is time for the Creator to sleep. He's true form is non-existence itself and gazing upon would erase anyone. The formless sea of nothing created an aspect of God that made infinity have a limit and formless to have form. (Iceman Vol.1 #3)

Tiering: Oblivion being the representation of the nothingness and the Void before Creation. He outscales all the previous entities and is possibly the Apex of Cosmology giving him the higher-end of High 1-A+.

As powerful as Oblivion is and as paradoxical as he may be. He does have one superior and that superior has his weakness: Love. His superior is the being that not only radiates Love but is it. (Iceman Vol.1 #4)
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I have some questions..

1.)If the Chaos King is the embodiment of primordial chaos and darkness, and primordial chaos represents life, freedom and possibility in the Land of Can-be-Shall-be, then since the Chaos King is one of Oblivion's aspects, should Oblivion also embodies primordial chaos/Land of Can-be-Shall-be?

2.)Should The Griever be considered one of Oblivion's aspects? She embodies endless nothingness, and her domain is the Void which is embodies by Oblivion himself. Her role in ending all things is to serve the grand design and Oblivion, suggesting that these grand designs concepts of how all things begin and end are one of his conceptual creations.
 
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BunBun said:
I have some questions..

1.)If the Chaos King is the embodiment of primordial chaos and darkness, and primordial chaos represents life, freedom and possibility in the Land of Can-be-Shall-be, then since the Chaos King is one of Oblivion's aspects, should Oblivion also embodies primordial chaos/Land of Can-be-Shall-be?

2.)Should The Griever be considered one of Oblivion's aspects? She embodies endless nothingness, and her domain is the Void which is embodies by Oblivion himself. Her role in ending all things is to serve the grand design and Oblivion, suggesting that these grand designs concepts of how all things begin and end are one of his conceptual creations.
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Neither the Land of Can be Shall be or the Griever exist within DeMatteis' Cosmology.
 
The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
Neither the Land of Can be Shall be or the Griever exist within DeMatteis' Cosmology.
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Oh.. I thought they were still using the same cosmology, as Steve Orlando, the current author writing about Chthon and Primordial Chaos, stated that the Chthon in present storyline is the same Chthon from Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme #90, written by DeMatteis.
 
BunBun said:
Oh.. I thought they were still using the same cosmology, as Steve Orlando, the current author writing about Chthon and Primordial Chaos, stated that the Chthon in present storyline is the same Chthon from Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme #90, written by DeMatteis.
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Orlando has said to me and a couple of others that what he says doesn't affect what has been printed.
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
Orlando has said to me and a couple of others that what he says doesn't affect what has been printed.
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Yes, he said that what he mentions in interviews about comics that haven't been printed yet isn't considered canon, but his tweets regarding comics that have already been published- so it's considered canon(?).-.
 
BunBun said:
Yes, he said that what he mentions in interviews about comics that haven't been printed yet isn't considered canon, but his tweets regarding comics that have already been published- so it's considered canon(?).-.
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Probably not. Especially since the Griever is a newer concept. Could be an aspect of Oblivion like Amatseu-Mikaboshi, but that's really just headcanon.
 
I agree with most of this, but I disagree with the idea that DeMatteis's cosmology shouldn't exist within the main cosmology. As Steve Orlando stated, DeMatteis's work exists within the main cosmology ; ( it should be considered composite with main cosmology.)
 
DivineCreator389 said:
I agree with most of this, but I disagree with the idea that DeMatteis's cosmology shouldn't exist within the main cosmology. As Steve Orlando stated, DeMatteis's work exists within the main cosmology:( it should be considered composite with main cosmology.)
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Some of DeMatteis' ideas are outdated and just don't anymore fit with the modern cosmology, notably Oblivion. Of course, some stuffs from DeMatteis' stories can be used such as the Defenders series.
 
DivineCreator389 said:
I agree with most of this, but I disagree with the idea that DeMatteis's cosmology shouldn't exist within the main cosmology. As Steve Orlando stated, DeMatteis's work exists within the main cosmology ; ( it should be considered composite with main cosmology.)
Click to expand...

That has the same energy as saying Gaiman always said the Sandman Universe exists inside DC, yet we separate them. It really doesn’t prove much because at the end of the day, it’s not their words that matter, but what’s been printed.
 
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