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Duel of the Deuteragonists Vol. 2: Moss vs Sauce

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PatatesR said:
Sasuke also used a sword from his youth until he was in his 30s.
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Which is cool but I find it funny that you say I'm the one skipping something. Not sure why your trying to make this narrative that Sasuke was a swordsman, legendary samurai till he was in his 30's, that's dishonest. Let's not pretend that Sasuke was soley using his sword and only his sword against opponents whenever he spams the **** out his arsenal.


Lmfao Sasuke wasn't go around only getting into sword fights for 30 years. Because I too, remember Sasuke only ever using a sword in his fights instead his plethora of Jutsu.
 
LordGinSama said:
Which is cool but I find it funny that you say I'm the one skipping something. Not sure why your trying to make this narrative that Sasuke was a swordsman, legendary samurai till he was in his 30's, that's dishonest. Let's not pretend that Sasuke was soley using his sword and only his sword against opponents whenever he spams the **** out his arsenal.


Lmfao Sasuke wasn't go around only getting into sword fights for 30 years. Because I too, remember Sasuke only ever using a sword in his fights instead his plethora of Jutsu.
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Bruh, Ichigo has shown better swordmanship, unironically (My dawg kinda underrated ngl). Zoro isn't a question, it's a goddamn fact.

sorry for derailing, I had to get that off my chest
 
Zoro FRA🚂 💨

Apart from the Iai speed amp + the attacks that are a AP amp, Zoro is not "defenseless" and unable to hurt Sasuke before using the AP amp attacks, Zoro can defend himself using forcefields and can hurt Sasuke by reflecting Sasuke's attacks back at him.
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vsbattles.fandom.com

Haki

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And regardless of all the Haki VS Genjutsu discussion, New-Era Sasuke barely uses Genjutsu, consequently Zoro has plenty of time to defeat Sasuke before he uses Genjutsu.
 
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It's not Genjutsu GG? Okay, I'm interested.

Amaterasu, Pain Gravity Manip, and TP shenanigans are pretty good options, but when laid out it looks like Zoro bruteforces his way through this with Haki, Superior Swordsmanship, and sheer force of will. And I'm not trying to exaggerate when I say this; Zoro has been near-death numerous times after being given lethal wounds and he just... powers through. (Edit) That is also to say that he'd allow himself to get willfully harmed to gain the upper hand, should it be necessary. Susano'o durability is also probably going to get damaged thanks to Haki shenanigans. And conventional ninja strategies may not work after the first time.

That's not to say that Sasuke won't put forth a challenge for Zoro though-- I'm fairly confident Sasuke would recognize Zoro as a threat worth being wary of, and improvise a ranged strategy. CQC is likely a suicidal approach for Sasuke and he'd likely last long enough to figure that out quickly. To that end, early set-up for Kirin and overall Rinnegan abilities (even the ones we haven't seen on-screen if I'm being generous) could be useful and dish out some hurt. I could also see TP swap strategies giving Zoro a hard time early on, however it likely won't be enough to deal a finishing blow thanks to Haki.

Also let's not kid ourselves, Zoro is clearly the better swordsman here. Sasuke's entire style of fighting is so mixed and versatile, that swordplay encompasses nothing more than a preferred CQC approach and as a conduit for Lightning Style-- and, maybe as a Ninja tool for some creative strategies.

I'm voting Zoro for my reasons and Gin's reasons (he also laid it out pretty well).
 
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LordGinSama said:
Lmfao Sasuke wasn't go around only getting into sword fights for 30 years. Because I too, remember Sasuke only ever using a sword in his fights instead his plethora of Jutsu.
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Sasuke was fighting on par with someone who had millenia of combat experience when their only combat ability were close range weapons. He beat 1000 trained shinobi without fatally wounding a single one of them at the same time at the age of 16. He absolutely is a master swordsman
 
DavidTPPM said:
Sasuke was fighting on par with someone who had millenia of combat experience when their only combat ability were close range weapons. He beat 1000 trained shinobi without fatally wounding a single one of them at the same time at the age of 16. He absolutely is a master swordsman
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Just nowhere close to the level of Zoro.
 
ReaperAndBlues said:
Just nowhere close to the level of Zoro.
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Could you point me to feats that come even close to millennia of weapon mastery? I don't think I've seen anything even remotely close to that in the thread.

Honestly so far the skill arguments I did see are not all that good. Even the speed amp arguments.
 
DavidTPPM said:
Could you point me to feats that come even close to millennia of weapon mastery? I don't think I've seen anything even remotely close to that in the thread.
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Appeal to experience fallacy. A 1000 year old swordsman is fodder without statements or feats, and none have done anything like Zoro.
DavidTPPM said:
Honestly so far the skill arguments I did see are not all that good. Even the speed amp arguments.
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Those speed amps are blitz amps that can straight up make people who can percieve Zoro and predict him with Kenbun completely helpless, the same Kenbun that can read minds and see the future, even while sleeping. Sasuke's Sharingan is not helping him in that situation, since Kenbun couldn't help those people either.
 
Quibster said:
what sticks out to you specifically?
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Sasukes speed amps seem extremely downplayed for some reason.
Shunshin is a blitz tier amp where the opponent who could keep up with you before can no longer react, but Shinobi are skilled enough to keep up with their speed while using it.
Chidori is such an enormous speed amp that even the most trained shinobi can't keep up with their own speed while using it.
Sasuke then has Susanoo which is also a huge speed amp over his base. Danzo for example could physically match chidori amped Sasuke but got completely blitzed by the Susanoo on several occasions, and Kakashi who was relative to chidori amped Sasuke in base could barely react to a Susanoo arrow from a significant distance with an MS active. Even assuming that the later stages of susanoo don't get faster

Susanoo > chidori > shunshin > base speed

And that's not even mentioning his teleportation that can further amplify his speed amps.
 
DavidTPPM said:
Sasukes speed amps seem extremely downplayed for some reason.
Shunshin is a blitz tier amp where the opponent who could keep up with you before can no longer react, but Shinobi are skilled enough to keep up with their speed while using it.
Chidori is such an enormous speed amp that even the most trained shinobi can't keep up with their own speed while using it.
Sasuke then has Susanoo which is also a huge speed amp over his base. Danzo for example could physically match chidori amped Sasuke but got completely blitzed by the Susanoo on several occasions, and Kakashi who was relative to chidori amped Sasuke in base could barely react to a Susanoo arrow from a significant distance with an MS active. Even assuming that the later stages of susanoo don't get faster
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Sasuke can't win via those amps + Kenbun gives both mind reading prediction and Zoro has natural reaction amps. As I said before, people with vastly greater precog get blitzed by Zoro, even when they were able to predict and react to him.
DavidTPPM said:
And that's not even mentioning his teleportation that can further amplify his speed amps.
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Kenbun completely counters that because Zoro will know where Sasuke will teleport
 
ReaperAndBlues said:
Appeal to experience fallacy.
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What? You can't just make up fallacies…
ReaperAndBlues said:
A 1000 year old swordsman is fodder without statements or feats, and none have done anything like Zoro.
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The otsutsuki combat experience is what makes karma a dangerous weapon. Boruto literally goes from 6-C to 5-C thanks to Karma and Code still considers the experience amp THE main reason why it makes the user stronger
In-Collage-20240604-214859507.jpg

Unless Zoros skill can breach an AP gap billions of times wide then I don't think it's fair to say they're is fodder.
And again, what did Zoro even do? I haven't seen anything nearly as impressive as beating 1000 trained Shinobi at once without fatally wounding a single one
ReaperAndBlues said:
Those speed amps are blitz amps that can straight up make people who can percieve Zoro and predict him with Kenbun completely helpless, the same Kenbun that can read minds and see the future, even while sleeping.
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As if shunshin alone wasn't a blitz amp.
ReaperAndBlues said:
Sasuke's Sharingan is not helping him in that situation, since Kenbun couldn't help those people either.
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Sasuke could react to Isshiki who scales above chidori and Susanoo amped Sasuke, I think he should be fine
ReaperAndBlues said:
Kenbun completely counters that because Zoro will know where Sasuke will teleport
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Pretty sure that's not true…? Knowing where Sasuke will teleport won't change the fact that Sasuke literally closes a distance gap over 0 time. Knowing where he'll go might remove the element of surprise but it won't change the fact that Sasukes mobility via teleportation is far beyond actual movement.
 
DavidTPPM said:
What? You can't just make up fallacies…
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It is a real argument tho. Just because a character has more experience than another doesn't mean that they're more skilled. Garou for example, skillstomps Sasuke and everyone in the verse, and he's only 18. Not saying Zoro is Garou, but considering the very obvious difference in how the two fight and Zoro's feats when it comes to going sword for sword, he might as well be compared to Sauce.
DavidTPPM said:
The otsutsuki combat experience is what makes karma a dangerous weapon. Boruto literally goes from 6-C to 5-C thanks to Karma and Code still considers the experience amp THE main reason why it makes the user stronger
In-Collage-20240604-214859507.jpg

Unless Zoros skill can breach an AP gap billions of times wide then I don't think it's fair to say they're is fodder.
And again, what did Zoro even do? I haven't seen anything nearly as impressive as beating 1000 trained Shinobi at once without fatally wounding a single one
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That is fodder compared to achieving the Mighty Blade, which is the ability to cut anything through pure skill. Zoro can even cut Water and Fire with his swordsmanship, and can use a knife to slice a whole ass building in half with nothing but Goken. His swordsmanship is superior to Oden, who is a genius in his own respective sword style. Those Otsutsuki have no feats or statements to make them very threatening. This isn't Bleach where we have both experience and statements supporting characters like Unohana (that 8000 sword style feat kinda crazy), those Otsutsukis are really only at Naruto and Sasuke's levels at best.
DavidTPPM said:
As if shunshin alone wasn't a blitz amp.
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It isn't doing much.
DavidTPPM said:
Sasuke could react to Isshiki who scales above chidori and Susanoo amped Sasuke, I think he should be fine
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Not when he's gonna get his mind read. One of the Sharingan's weaknesses is the inability to keep up with high speed or unpredictable individuals, and Zoro's amps blitzed characters like Kaido, who could blitz Luffy, even with Advanced Kenbunshoku giving him even more potent precog than intermediate. Let me remind you again, Kenbun users can see the future directly and can read the minds and emotions of their enemies, and Zoro still blitzes them.
DavidTPPM said:
Pretty sure that's not true…? Knowing where Sasuke will teleport won't change the fact that Sasuke literally closes a distance gap over 0 time. Knowing where he'll go might remove the element of surprise but it won't change the fact that Sasukes mobility via teleportation is far beyond actual movement.
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Zoro can throw a ranged slash to catch him in the area where he will appear before he teleports, either leaving him completely helpless to getting hit or putting him in a compromising position, or if he tries to appear behind Zoro, he'll use Tatsumaki and tear him to ribbons.
 
ReaperAndBlues said:
It is a real argument tho.
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It's not a logical fallacy. I get trying to put the word fallacy into every arguments ever to look more fancy but this is a bit silly.
ReaperAndBlues said:
Just because a character has more experience than another doesn't mean that they're more skilled. Garou for example, skillstomps Sasuke and everyone in the verse, and he's only 18.
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I mean, I don't think Garou vs Sasuke isn't debatable before his cosmic amps which artificially give him an understanding of all things in the universe.

I get your point tho, ofc experience isn't the only thing that matters in fights. And I never said it is.
ReaperAndBlues said:
Not saying Zoro is Garou, but considering the very obvious difference in how the two fight and Zoro's feats when it comes to going sword for sword, he might as well be compared to Sauce.
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Again what feats? Most I remember seeing is in-universe scaling and "he fought with little blood in his body" which doesn't say much. And wdym how Sasuke fights? Sasuke has been using his sword a LOT in shippuden and he didn't use almost anything else in the 5 or so fights he had in Boruto.
ReaperAndBlues said:
That is fodder compared to achieving the Mighty Blade, which is the ability to cut anything through pure skill. Zoro can even cut Water and Fire with his swordsmanship,
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When did cutting water become a difficult feat? Same with fire. That's kinda just an AP feat ngl.
As for cutting everything, that's a pretty cool micro control skill that Sasuke can copy. But there's a difference between being skilled at moving your body and actually fighting.
ReaperAndBlues said:
and can use a knife to slice a whole ass building in half with nothing but Goken
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AP
ReaperAndBlues said:
His swordsmanship is superior to Oden, who is a genius in his own respective sword style.
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Okay? That's not exactly a feat. Naruto as a teenager mastered the strongest taijutsu style which leaves no openings in defense or offensive.
ReaperAndBlues said:
Those Otsutsuki have no feats or statements to make them very threatening. This isn't Bleach where we have both experience and statements supporting characters like Unohana (that 8000 sword style feat kinda crazy), those Otsutsukis are really only at Naruto and Sasuke's levels at best.
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It's not that the otsutsukis are "only at Naruto and Sasukes level" but that Naruto and Sasuke are on the Otsutsukis level. Saying they have no feats or statements is just outright wrong.
ReaperAndBlues said:
It isn't doing much.
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Sure? Then Sasuke uses chidori which is a blitz amp even above that. If that also fails Sasuke uses Susanoo which is a blitz amp even above that. And if that fails Sasuke uses Susanoo with a chidori for an additional blitz amp 😭
ReaperAndBlues said:
Not when he's gonna get his mind read. One of the Sharingan's weaknesses is the inability to keep up with high speed individuals,
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What does that even mean? Any perception based abilities weaknesses is characters that are too fast for them lmao that's such a nothingburger of a statement. Yeah if Zoro could move so fast that Sasuke can't react he obviously wouldn't be able to react.

But Sasuke could react to Isshiki who's
Isshiki >~ Jigen > Susanoo Sasuke > chidori Sasuke > shunshin Sasuke > Sasukes base speed
ReaperAndBlues said:
and Zoro's amps blitzed characters like Kaido, who could blitz Luffy, even with Advanced Kenbunshoku giving him even more potent precog than intermediate. Let me remind you again, Kenbun users can see the future directly and can read the minds and emotions of their enemies, and Zoro still blitzes them.
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That's only worth something if those characters are equal or relative to Zoros base speed.
Either way that's just a simple single blitz tier. I don't see how base sharingan doesn't just counter that.
ReaperAndBlues said:
Zoro can throw a ranged slash to catch him in the area where he will appear before he teleports,
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That's assuming there's enough time delay between Sasuke thinking of teleporting somewhere and Sasuke actually doing so. Also, given Sasukes genius level IQ he would realize that Zoro can read his mind pretty fast and wouldn't actively think about his teleportation. Sasuke already seems to be using his teleportation reactively rather than actively anyway.
ReaperAndBlues said:
either leaving him completely helpless to getting hit or putting him in a compromising position
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I honestly don't understand why do you assume there's enough time between Sasuke thinking of teleporting and Sasukes teleportation itself for Zoro to do ANYTHING
 
DavidTPPM said:
That's assuming there's enough time delay between Sasuke thinking of teleporting somewhere and Sasuke actually doing so. Also, given Sasukes genius level IQ he would realize that Zoro can read his mind pretty fast and wouldn't actively think about his teleportation. Sasuke already seems to be using his teleportation reactively rather than actively anyway.
I honestly don't understand why do you assume there's enough time between Sasuke thinking of teleporting and Sasukes teleportation itself for Zoro to do ANYTHING
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Zoro isn't just reading his mind, he's reading his intentions and emotions

He'll know what Sasuke will do in the future right at that moment before he even tries it + combined with the insane perception speed amps, zoro will be able to precieve him much faster and know what he's doing at all times

Not only that but observation haki works subconsciously meaning Zoro's body will be able to react and move on it's own essentially never getting off guarded and take actions quicker
 
MonkeyOfLife said:
Zoro isn't just reading his mind, he's reading his intentions and emotions

He'll know what Sasuke will do in the future right at that moment before he even tries it + combined with the insane perception speed amps, zoro will be able to precieve him much faster and know what he's doing at all times
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I don’t think that changes anything about what I said. Sasukes intentions being "cut zoro" and emotions being "cut zoro" won't give Zoro extra time to react to teleportation.

This type of precog only stops Sasuke from doing planned out strategies via teleportation (or well, let's Zoro react). It doesn't do much if anything to reactive uses of ameno, such as if Sasuke notices a weak spot mid cqc exchange and instantly goes to abuse it via teleportation.
 
DavidTPPM said:
I don’t think that changes anything about what I said. Sasukes intentions being "cut zoro" and emotions being "cut zoro" won't give Zoro extra time to react to teleportation.

This type of precog only stops Sasuke from doing planned out strategies via teleportation (or well, let's Zoro react). It doesn't do much if anything to reactive uses of ameno, such as if Sasuke notices a weak spot mid cqc exchange and instantly goes to abuse it via teleportation.
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Zoro doesn't look into the future and waste time planning and stuff

He'll instantly know he's nexts moves by reading him... Teleportation is simply not going to help and zoro will be able to attack at the place hes going to dodge to

This would make Sasuke having to teleport many times since every time he teleports, there will be a flying slash already coming his way which will greatly affect his stamina, he can also never hide from Zoro since he can sense him behind objects around the whole environment and slash again through objects which would be able to get Sasuke caught off guard

With observation haki, zoro is always going to be steps ahead no matter what since his precog can be spammed
 
DavidTPPM said:
It's not a logical fallacy. I get trying to put the word fallacy into every arguments ever to look more fancy but this is a bit silly.
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It is because that is a form of logical reasoning that experience = skill. But it was never something used by anyone else, so I concede I guess.
DavidTPPM said:
I mean, I don't think Garou vs Sasuke isn't debatable before his cosmic amps which artificially give him an understanding of all things in the universe.
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Another example is Kenshiro, who unlike Garou, doesn't have universal shit going on, just really good hands. Also Goku, but I'm not gonna start THAT debate, I'm sticking it to here.
DavidTPPM said:
I get your point tho, ofc experience isn't the only thing that matters in fights. And I never said it is.
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Then you concede.
DavidTPPM said:
Again what feats? Most I remember seeing is in-universe scaling and "he fought with little blood in his body" which doesn't say much. And wdym how Sasuke fights? Sasuke has been using his sword a LOT in shippuden and he didn't use almost anything else in the 5 or so fights he had in Boruto.
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Sasuke fights with both hand to hand and swordsmanship, which btw, he has never trained in such to the leveklls of how Zoro has trained. Plus, Zoro has more qualitative and quantitative experience with swords as he was infamous before he even met Luffy. Zoro only developed Muttoryu as a last resort in case his swords were knocked out of his grasp, Sasuke can fight jist fine if you take away his weapon, maybe he loses range and versatility, but he isn't losing a part of him. The blade to Sasuke is an accessory, to Zoro, it's a part of him.
DavidTPPM said:
When did cutting water become a difficult feat? Same with fire. That's kinda just an AP feat ngl.
As for cutting everything, that's a pretty cool micro control skill that Sasuke can copy. But there's a difference between being skilled at moving your body and actually fighting.
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Because cutting fire isn't something that can be done in such a level that Zoro can where he literally split it in two. He bisected Prometheus, which is scientifically impossible. The same goes with water. Acrobatics are very important when it comes to the level of high-action fighting seen in shonen, irl it's pretty useless, but here it's not when he can scale objects and attack at ridiculous ranges via slashing the air.
DavidTPPM said:
AP
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Goken.
DavidTPPM said:
Okay? That's not exactly a feat. Naruto as a teenager mastered the strongest taijutsu style which leaves no openings in defense or offensive.
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Yes it is when it is the pinnacle of swordsmanship within One Piece, the very top of what a swordsman can do.
DavidTPPM said:
It's not that the otsutsukis are "only at Naruto and Sasukes level" but that Naruto and Sasuke are on the Otsutsukis level. Saying they have no feats or statements is just outright wrong.
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Name me 5 skill feats from the Otsutsukis that don't involve Naruto or Sasuke. Oh wait, they have none.
DavidTPPM said:
Sure? Then Sasuke uses chidori which is a blitz amp even above that. If that also fails Sasuke uses Susanoo which is a blitz amp even above that. And if that fails Sasuke uses Susanoo with a chidori for an additional blitz amp 😭
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Zoro reacts via mind reading + his blitzes are far more potent. Another thing about that Kaido feat, he had 30 broken bones while he performed that, and he wasn't even as fast as he was fighting King, since King was outpacing Zoro in their fight.
DavidTPPM said:
What does that even mean? Any perception based abilities weaknesses is characters that are too fast for them lmao that's such a nothingburger of a statement. Yeah if Zoro could move so fast that Sasuke can't react he obviously wouldn't be able to react.
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Which is the case. He can blitz amp himself to the point where even characters who can keep up or even outpace him get blitzed. Plus, Zoro is getting stronger as the fight goes on, so he will get faster and faster as the fight drags out.
DavidTPPM said:
But Sasuke could react to Isshiki who's
Isshiki >~ Jigen > Susanoo Sasuke > chidori Sasuke > shunshin Sasuke > Sasukes base speed
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Zoro's Iai attacks > Flame off King >~ Post-Rooftop healthy Zoro>~ Iai attacks > Weakened Zoro with Ashura > Hybrid Kaido >~ Base Onigashima Luffy (he barely reacted even with Kenbun) >~ Base Kaido > G4 Pre-Rooftop Luffy (Even with Advanced Kenbun.)
DavidTPPM said:
That's only worth something if those characters are equal or relative to Zoros base speed.
Either way that's just a simple single blitz tier. I don't see how base sharingan doesn't just counter that.
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Read the chain
DavidTPPM said:
That's assuming there's enough time delay between Sasuke thinking of teleporting somewhere and Sasuke actually doing so. Also, given Sasukes genius level IQ he would realize that Zoro can read his mind pretty fast and wouldn't actively think about his teleportation. Sasuke already seems to be using his teleportation reactively rather than actively anyway.
Click to expand...
Zoro would read Sasuke's mind and know that he's catching on and would use his Genius combat intelligence to catch on. Also, Sasuke mostly uses Ameno with Naruto when on the offensive, and considering Zoro can follow the set location and be there before it happens via Kenbun, it would only be a waste of Chakra.
DavidTPPM said:
I honestly don't understand why do you assume there's enough time between Sasuke thinking of teleporting and Sasukes teleportation itself for Zoro to do ANYTHING
Click to expand...
Zoro can read his mind and see the future BEFORE he does it. He doesn't need to attack him while he's teleporting, he's gonna know where he's gonna be and either move over there and blitz Sasuke when he appears, or just fire a slash there.
 
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ReaperAndBlues said:
Yuno on the other hand might be interesting enough to warrant a possible matchup later.
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Yuno range stomps, AoE stomps and with LS advantage, he blows up Zoro weapons, has absurd teleportation and have more AP than Zoro with Haoshoku

Also the fact we are doing a revision so not worth it+ the fight was done in the past too, I think it was their 6-B versions or high 6-A versions
 
Kazuma_kuwabara said:
Yuno range stomps, AoE stomps and with LS advantage, he blows up Zoro weapons, has absurd teleportation and have more AP than Zoro with Haoshoku

Also the fact we are doing a revision so not worth it+ the fight was done in the past too, I think it was their 6-B versions or high 6-A versions
Click to expand...
Well. I... Maybe him and Sausage if he doesn't get stomped by GJ
 
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