ReaperAndBlues
He/Him- 3,241
- 3,304
- Thread starter
- #401
Why?put me as inconclusive
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Why?put me as inconclusive
nothing is impossible(it's probably impossible tho)
What? I never said he did, how would that be relevant?Zoro doesn't look into the future and waste time planning and stuff
Yeah but by the time he knows that Sasuke will be teleported. Precog only helps against precog if there's some time between activation and actually appearing on the spot.He'll instantly know he's nexts moves by reading him... Teleportation is simply not going to help and zoro will be able to attack at the place hes going to dodge to.
Excuse me? You're saying that during the time where Sasuke thinks about teleporting Zoro willThis would make Sasuke having to teleport many times since every time he teleports, there will be a flying slash already coming his way which will greatly affect his stamina,
Sounds like basic sharingan precog to me ngl.With observation haki, zoro is always going to be steps ahead no matter what since his precog can be spammed
Yeah again I never said experience is ALL to combat skill. But it is EXTREMELY important. Like I noted before (which you kinda ignored iirc), Code considered this experience amp to be a greater boost to combat power than a literal hundreds of billions of times AP buff.Another example is Kenshiro, who unlike Garou, doesn't have universal shit going on, just really good hands. Also Goku, but I'm not gonna start THAT debate, I'm sticking it to here.
To what? I can't concede on a point I didn't make. Ig I "concede" to the strawman of my point that you came up with.Then you concede.
So? That kinda just means he's more versatile lolSasuke fights with both hand to hand and swordsmanship,
That doesn't give him more "qualitative" experience lol.Plus, Zoro has more qualitative and quantitative experience with swords as he was infamous before he even met Luffy.
So your argument is that Zoro is more reliant on his sword? That's a bad thing lol.Zoro onpy developed Muttoryu as a last resort in case his swords were knocked out of his grasp, Sasuke can fight jist fine if you take away his weapon, maybe he loses range and versatility, but he isn't losing a part of him. The blade to Sasuke is an accessory, to Zoro, it's a part of him.
What? Is that like an in universe limitation or something? Because fire absolutely can be cut in half with enough forceBecause cutting fire isn't something that can be done in such a level that Zoro can where he literally split it in two.
No idea what that is.He bisected Prometheus, which is scientifically impossible.
Cutting water isn't even a superhuman feat...The same goes with water.
Acrobatics like Sasuke doing backflips while controlling his sword with his feet, then kicking it towards Momoshiki?Acrobatics are very important when it comes to the level of high-action fighting seen in shonen, irl it's pretty useless, but here it's not when he can scale objects and attack at ridiculous ranges via slashing the air.
?Goken.
In universe maybe. Last time I checked OP doesn't have aliens that are thousands of years old who's skill is superior to billions of times AP advantages.Yes it is when it is the pinnacle of swordsmanship within One Piece, the very top of what a swordsman can do.
Wdym "that don't involve Naruto and Sasuke"?Name me 5 skill feats from the Otsutsukis that don't involve Naruto or Sasuke. Oh wait, they have none.
How?Zoro reacts via mind reading + his blitzes are far more potent.
Narutos shunshin allowed him to blitz Kaguya who has interdimensional danger sensing from like 200 meters away despite Kaguya herself being faster than Naruto.Another thing about that Kaido feat, he had 30 broken bones while he performed that, and he wasn't even as fast as he was fighting King, since King was outpacing Zoro in their fight.
So, shunshin level.Which is the case. He can blitz amp himself to the point where evem characters who can keep up or even outpace him get blitzed.
Sure?Plus, Zoro is getting stronger as the fight goes on, so he will get faster and faster as the fight drags out.
That's 2 or 3 blitz tiers at best. Bro is not reacting to a chidori amped Susanoo.KoH Zoro > Flame off King >~ Weakened Zoro with Ashura > Hybrid Kaido >~ Base Onigashima Luffy (he barely reacted even with Kenbun) >~ Base Kaido > G4 Pre-Rooftop Luffy
So? Wtf does that even mean?Zoro would read Sasuke's mind and know that he's catching on and would use his Genius combat intelligence to catch on.
Because all his actual on screen fights were WITH Naruto? Idk what are you trying to say here.Also, Sasuke mostly uses Ameno with Naruto when on the offensive,
Zoro can outspeed instantaneous teleportation? Man ain't no wayand considering Zoro can follow the set location and be there before it happens via Kenbun, it would only be a waste of Chakra.
So again, you're saying Zoro will outspeed teleportation which is absolutely crazy.Zoro can read his mind and see the future BEFORE he does it. He doesn't need to attack him while he's teleporting, he's gonna know where he's gonna be and either move over there and blitz Sasuke when he appears, or just fire a slash there.
What do you mean?but for the people saying Haki would null Sasuke's GJ yet Zoro would still be able to read Sasuke's mind with Kenbun when they both currently have "7 layers" currently.
mind reading is an aspect of mental manipWhat do you mean?
Sauce has 7 layers of mental hax?mind reading is an aspect of mental manip
if you have mind manip resistance, people can't read your mind(there are even examples of this in naruto.)
so if both have 7 layers.
and you guys are arguing Sasuke's GJ wouldn't work because of layers
why would Zoro be able to read Sasuke's mind with kenbun?
Sauce has 7 layers of mental hax?
Wtf did I miss? I thought he capped at like 3 or 4?actually more just not on the profile yet
yes
no? he's been at that for a while, it might be double that soon when someone gets around to revising thatWtf did I miss? I thought he capped at like 3 or 4?
Because It's not literal mind reading.mind reading is an aspect of mental manip
if you have mind manip resistance, people can't read your mind(there are even examples of this in naruto.)
so if both have 7 layers.
and you guys are arguing Sasuke's GJ wouldn't work because of layers
why would Zoro be able to read Sasuke's mind with kenbun?
what is it then?Because It's not literally mind reading.
Oh nice then we ballinno? he's been at that for a while, it might be double that soon when someone gets around to revising that
The Last Sasuke's Genjutsu > Infinite Tsukuyomi > Kotoamatsukami > EMS Sasuke's Genjutsu/Tsukuyomi > Regular Mangekyō Sharingan Genjutsu > 3T Sharingan Genjutsu > Regular Genjutsu
When sensing emotions, reading minds and intent, the Kenbun user feels the user's intent as if they were the person themselves.Excuse me? You're saying that during the time where Sasuke thinks about teleporting Zoro will
1. Mentally realize he's teleporting
2. Turn in that direction
3. Send attacks in that direction
That's completely impossible unless Zoro was capable of both thinking and moving like gajillion times faster than Sasuke can even THINK.
there are different kinds... One is by sensing your intentions essentially reading their will from their presence and another one can sense via your emotionswhat is it then?
Sharpen your senses and realize the presence!
It is a high spirit that detects the presence of creatures around you and their emotions. It is effective not only in battle, but also in foreseeing and avoiding danger!
Those who possess the Haiki-Color are so good at evasion that they can see their opponent's movements even with their eyes closed! Even if they are attacked from a blind spot, they can instantly evade.
Read the hearts and minds of opponents and sense the next action they will take! This ability can be applied in a variety of situations, such as avoiding an enemy's attack or foreseeing his/her movement to attack.
Hear and See
The ability to sense the presence of others. By enhancing this ability, one can avoid attacks from blind spots, and read the number of enemies and what they are going to do next. The "mind net" of the sky islands is a similar power.
He said it was even moreso the fact that there was an experience amp, not that the experience was far beyond that AP boost. That sounds like absolute wank.Yeah again I never said experience is ALL to combat skill. But it is EXTREMELY important. Like I noted before (which you kinda ignored iirc), Code considered this experience amp to be a greater boost to combat power than a literal hundreds of billions of times AP buff.
On experience = skill.To what? I can't concede on a point I didn't make. Ig I "concede" to the strawman of my point that you came up with.
Obviously he's less versatile, but he's far more in-tune with his swordsmanship than Sasuke is with his.So? That kinda just means he's more versatile lol
Yes it does if he's spent it developing his own f***** sword style and was training to reach the goal of becoming the greatest swordsman in the world.That doesn't give him more "qualitative" experience lol.
He's better at swordsmanship than Sasuke by the fact that the sword is a part of him. How is it a bad thing?So your argument is that Zoro is more reliant on his sword? That's a bad thing lol.
Proof that it can be?What? Is that like an in universe limitation or something? Because fire absolutely can be cut in half with enough force
Cutting something in half.No idea what that is.
It's not superhuman, it's beyond that when it's literally split in two.Cutting water isn't even a superhuman feat...
Acrobatics like jumping from cliff to cliff cutting fire dragons, again, a Goken feat.Acrobatics like Sasuke doing backflips while controlling his sword with his feet, then kicking it towards Momoshiki?
Yes, because he didn't even use Haki.
Again, that sounds like wank and my previous point debunked that.In universe maybe. Last time I checked OP doesn't have aliens that are thousands of years old who's skill is superior to billions of times AP advantages.
If they don't have feats on their own, then they are really only scaling to Naruto and Sasuke, especially since those thousands of years could just be them twiddling their fingers. Which is why I need feats.Wdym "that don't involve Naruto and Sasuke"?
Blitzing far superior precog than the sharingan, on a person who blitzed someone with better precog than him.How?
Interdimensional danger sense isn't shit, that just means it has more range, not more potencyNarutos shunshin allowed him to blitz Kaguya who has interdimensional danger sensing from like 200 meters away despite Kaguya herself being faster than Naruto.
Bruh. Blitzing Kenbun is far better.So, shunshin level.
Yes he is with Kenbun + mind reading + higher reaction speed.That's 2 or 3 blitz tiers at best. Bro is not reacting to a chidori amped Susanoo.
Zoro would realize Sasuke is adjusting to his Haki and begin starting to make more unpredictable movements and start adapting to him learning about the voice of all things before Sasuke starts making plans, since Zoro thinks on his feet and would be trouble to Sasuke who makes plans.So? Wtf does that even mean?
Even in his solo fights he doesn't use Ameno offensively that much.Because all his actual on screen fights were WITH Naruto? Idk what are you trying to say here.
Zoro will see where he will appear, then BEFORE he teleports, will move there and Sasuke will teleport, leaving him vulnerable.Zoro can outspeed instantaneous teleportation? Man ain't no way
No, I'm saying he will read his mind BEFORE he teleports, and appear there before he teleports to attack him from when he appears.So again, you're saying Zoro will outspeed teleportation which is absolutely crazy.
those are both just forms of mind manipthere are different kinds... One is by sensing your intentions essentially reading their will from their presence and another one can sense can sense via your emotions
No... They aren't manipulating your mind in anywaythose are both just forms of mind manip
It is mechanically differentempathic manip is associated with mind manip unless mechanically different.
Where are there examples of people not being able to hear your inner thoughts in Narutoif you have mind manip resistance, people can't read your mind(there are even examples of this in naruto.)
Vote.
Sasuke:I quite honestly do not have the energy or drive needed to go through 11 pages of this debate so may someone please sum up their respective wincons?
Sasuke:I quite honestly do not have the energy or drive needed to go through 11 pages of this debate so may someone please sum up their respective wincons?
SureSasuke:
Higher AP and durability initially
Versatility
Teleportation
Extremely OOCShadow Clones
That's 5 for sauce, 6 for mossBetter Stamina than En-Ō Zoro
Better and more hax
Zoro:
Superior precog
Higher AP with Haōshoku Infusion, Enma Unleashed, or En-Ō
Range and AoE
Durability Negating attacks
Resists Sasuke's Hax abilities with Haki
Can cut Fire Styles and Amaterasu with Flame Rend
6 wincons vs 6 wincons
vote incon like me
Sasuke:
- Better Versatility
- Better stamina against KoH
- Better base AP
- Better overall range with more techniques
Zoro:
- More skilled
- Better precog
- Better speed and reaction amps, some of which are blitzes
- Dura neg
- Higher AP via Hao infusion and has one shot capabilities with KoH
- Higher LS
Also Zoro has accelerated development, so as the fight goes on he gets stronger and faster.
Ngl Zoro may take this but I'm really not sureSasuke:
Higher AP and durability initially
Versatility
Teleportation
Shadow Clones
Better Stamina than En-Ō Zoro
Better and more hax
Zoro:
Superior precog
Higher AP with Haōshoku Infusion, Enma Unleashed, or En-Ō
Range and AoE
Durability Negating attacks
Resists Sasuke's Hax abilities with Haki
Can cut Fire Styles and Amaterasu with Flame Rend
6 wincons vs 6 wincons
vote incon like me
It's up to you, we kinda need votes for anythingNgl Zoro may take this but I'm really not sure
Sasuke also has a massive increase in stats with Susano'o, which he can activate pretty much as fast as he can think.Sasuke:
Higher AP and durability initially
Versatility
Teleportation
Shadow Clones
Better Stamina than En-Ō Zoro
Better and more hax
Zoro:
Superior precog
Higher AP with Haōshoku Infusion, Enma Unleashed, or En-Ō
Range and AoE
Durability Negating attacks
Resists Sasuke's Hax abilities with Haki
Can cut Fire Styles and Amaterasu with Flame Rend
6 wincons vs 6 wincons
vote incon like me
But just like En-Ō, it also taxes him stamina wise, plus the fact that it causes passive damage to him, so it isn't a perfect amp.Sasuke also has a massive increase in stats with Susano'o, which he can activate pretty much as fast as he can think.
more skilled overall??Zoro:
- More skilled
Well, not really. People argued Sasuke was either on par or superior than Zoro in swordsmanship,more skilled overall??
i thought we all agreed zoro is more skilled in swordsmanship but sasuke is more skilled in hand to hand
Susano'o is barely shown to affect Sasuke at this point, it's nowhere near Enma Unleashed's cost.But just like En-Ō, it also taxes him stamina wise, plus the fact that it causes passive damage to him, so it isn't a perfect amp.
En-Ō cost is also to be taken with a grain of salt since Zoro was also constantly getting his Haki drained by an unperfected Enma, and was also injured and beaten down from his battle with King. Current Zoro can use Enma just fine, although En-Ō is mostly a finisher, like Kaioken.Susano'o is barely shown to affect Sasuke at this point, it's nowhere near Enma Unleashed's cost.
He can use Enma itself. He doesn't use Enma Unleashed very often.En-Ō cost is also to be taken with a grain of salt since Zoro was also constantly getting his Haki drained by an unperfected Enma, and was also injured and beaten down from his battle with King. Current Zoro can use Enma just fine, although En-Ō is mostly a finisher, like Kaioken.
Zoro's AP is still above Susano'o's durability. With any attack, or even with Goken he'd slice through it like butter.Sasuke also has a massive increase in stats with Susano'o, which he can activate pretty much as fast as he can think.
"better precog" doesn't matter in this case as they effectively do the same thing.Better precog
Arguably.More skilled
better speed amps yeah, but what reaction amps? If this is referring to Kenbun, Sharingan has its own reaction amps that allow it to react to characters who are equal to them, in slow motion (or stationary i forgot), as shown in Nard vs Sauce in VoTE 1. So their arguably comparable, similar to precog.Better speed and reaction amps, some of which are blitzes
Doesn't matter, AFAIK Zoro doesn't use LS to his advantage in his fights.Higher LS
Not in characterShadow Clones
not sure how true this is but could be wrong.Range
What I mean is that Zoro has more ways to predict Sasuke with Kenbun compared to the Sharingan since Kenbun has mind reading, precog, and emotion sensing, so he simply has more abilities in terms of prediction. They both lead to the same deal of predicting the other, it's just that Zoro has more ways to do it."better precog" doesn't matter in this case as they effectively do the same thing.
if one character A can read body movements and character B can read intent, unless the other character can fight without intent, it doesn't matter because they both end up reading the person's next moves.
Swordsmanship wise, absolutely, overall skill, debatable. Sasuke uses his sword in this key very commonly, so the argument of Zoro's swordsmanship is very relevant when Sasuke uses his sword more often in this key.Arguably.
Zoro has higher reactions both naturally and via Kenbun. So yes, Zoro has reaction amps, and as pointed out somewhere here (I ain't searching for that shit) a random girl with Kenbun was able to read attacks from Enel and warn Luffy, which means Zoro has a pretty huge reaction boost.better speed amps yeah, but what reaction amps? If this is referring to Kenbun, Sharingan has its own reaction amps that allow it to react to characters who are equal to them, in slow motion (or stationary i forgot), as shown in Nard vs Sauce in VoTE 1. So their arguably comparable, similar to precog.
Still somewhat relevant since if they get into a sword clash Zoro can easily brush him off.Doesn't matter, AFAIK Zoro doesn't use LS to his advantage in his fights.
As I addressed. Sasuke almost never uses them in combat, he only really used them to either appear in places when he can't, or to train his students, but he almost never uses them in combat.Not in character
More range in terms of raw distance? Maybe. Better range with more techniques, definitely up Sasuke's avenue.not sure how true this is but could be wrong.
yep fair.What I mean is that Zoro has more ways to predict Sasuke with Kenbun compared to the Sharingan since Kenbun has mind reading, precog, and emotion sensing, so he simply has more abilities in terms of prediction. They both lead to the same deal of predicting the other, it's just that Zoro has more ways to do it.
yuhSwordsmanship wise, absolutely, overall, debatable.
naturally how?Zoro has higher reactions both naturally and via Kenbun.
fairStill somewhat relevant since if they get into a sword clash Zoro can easily brush him off.
yesAs I addressed. Sasuke almost never uses them in combat, he only really used them to either appear in places when he can't, or to train his students, but he almost never uses them in combat.
yeahMore range in terms of raw distance? Maybe. Better range with more techniques, definitely up Sasuke's avenue.
Idk, it just says so on the profilenaturally how?
Yeah, his AP is higher with Hao Infusion/Enma Unleashed/KoH, but Susano'o is still genuinely a massive amp. Itachi, who had far inferior eyes, basically became nearly 100 times as strong with only the Armored Susano'o.Zoro's AP is still above Susano'o's durability. With any attack, or even with Goken he'd slice through it like butter.