Duel of the Deuteragonists Vol. 2: Moss vs Sauce

[ReaperAndBlues]

put me as inconclusive

Why?

 

[Godernet]

(it's probably impossible tho)

nothing is impossible

 

[Godernet]

trying not to engage with this thread while I'm doing work stuff

but for the people saying Haki would null Sasuke's GJ yet Zoro would still be able to read Sasuke's mind with Kenbun when they both currently have "7 layers" currently.

could you explain why?

 

[DavidTPPM]

Zoro doesn't look into the future and waste time planning and stuff

What? I never said he did, how would that be relevant?

He'll instantly know he's nexts moves by reading him... Teleportation is simply not going to help and zoro will be able to attack at the place hes going to dodge to.

Yeah but by the time he knows that Sasuke will be teleported. Precog only helps against precog if there's some time between activation and actually appearing on the spot.

This would make Sasuke having to teleport many times since every time he teleports, there will be a flying slash already coming his way which will greatly affect his stamina,

Excuse me? You're saying that during the time where Sasuke thinks about teleporting Zoro will
1. Mentally realize he's teleporting
2. Turn in that direction
3. Send attacks in that direction
That's completely impossible unless Zoro was capable of both thinking and moving like gajillion times faster than Sasuke can even THINK.

With observation haki, zoro is always going to be steps ahead no matter what since his precog can be spammed

Sounds like basic sharingan precog to me ngl.

Another example is Kenshiro, who unlike Garou, doesn't have universal shit going on, just really good hands. Also Goku, but I'm not gonna start THAT debate, I'm sticking it to here.

Yeah again I never said experience is ALL to combat skill. But it is EXTREMELY important. Like I noted before (which you kinda ignored iirc), Code considered this experience amp to be a greater boost to combat power than a literal hundreds of billions of times AP buff.

Then you concede.

To what? I can't concede on a point I didn't make. Ig I "concede" to the strawman of my point that you came up with.

Sasuke fights with both hand to hand and swordsmanship,

So? That kinda just means he's more versatile lol

Plus, Zoro has more qualitative and quantitative experience with swords as he was infamous before he even met Luffy.

That doesn't give him more "qualitative" experience lol.

Zoro onpy developed Muttoryu as a last resort in case his swords were knocked out of his grasp, Sasuke can fight jist fine if you take away his weapon, maybe he loses range and versatility, but he isn't losing a part of him. The blade to Sasuke is an accessory, to Zoro, it's a part of him.

So your argument is that Zoro is more reliant on his sword? That's a bad thing lol.

Because cutting fire isn't something that can be done in such a level that Zoro can where he literally split it in two.

What? Is that like an in universe limitation or something? Because fire absolutely can be cut in half with enough force

He bisected Prometheus, which is scientifically impossible.

No idea what that is.

The same goes with water.

Cutting water isn't even a superhuman feat...

Acrobatics are very important when it comes to the level of high-action fighting seen in shonen, irl it's pretty useless, but here it's not when he can scale objects and attack at ridiculous ranges via slashing the air.

Acrobatics like Sasuke doing backflips while controlling his sword with his feet, then kicking it towards Momoshiki?

Goken.

?

Yes it is when it is the pinnacle of swordsmanship within One Piece, the very top of what a swordsman can do.

In universe maybe. Last time I checked OP doesn't have aliens that are thousands of years old who's skill is superior to billions of times AP advantages.

Name me 5 skill feats from the Otsutsukis that don't involve Naruto or Sasuke. Oh wait, they have none.

Wdym "that don't involve Naruto and Sasuke"?

Zoro reacts via mind reading + his blitzes are far more potent.

How?

Another thing about that Kaido feat, he had 30 broken bones while he performed that, and he wasn't even as fast as he was fighting King, since King was outpacing Zoro in their fight.

Narutos shunshin allowed him to blitz Kaguya who has interdimensional danger sensing from like 200 meters away despite Kaguya herself being faster than Naruto.

Which is the case. He can blitz amp himself to the point where evem characters who can keep up or even outpace him get blitzed.

So, shunshin level.

Plus, Zoro is getting stronger as the fight goes on, so he will get faster and faster as the fight drags out.

Sure?

KoH Zoro > Flame off King >~ Weakened Zoro with Ashura > Hybrid Kaido >~ Base Onigashima Luffy (he barely reacted even with Kenbun) >~ Base Kaido > G4 Pre-Rooftop Luffy

That's 2 or 3 blitz tiers at best. Bro is not reacting to a chidori amped Susanoo.

Zoro would read Sasuke's mind and know that he's catching on and would use his Genius combat intelligence to catch on.

So? Wtf does that even mean?

Also, Sasuke mostly uses Ameno with Naruto when on the offensive,

Because all his actual on screen fights were WITH Naruto? Idk what are you trying to say here.

and considering Zoro can follow the set location and be there before it happens via Kenbun, it would only be a waste of Chakra.

Zoro can outspeed instantaneous teleportation? Man ain't no way

Zoro can read his mind and see the future BEFORE he does it. He doesn't need to attack him while he's teleporting, he's gonna know where he's gonna be and either move over there and blitz Sasuke when he appears, or just fire a slash there.

So again, you're saying Zoro will outspeed teleportation which is absolutely crazy.

 

[Kachon123]

but for the people saying Haki would null Sasuke's GJ yet Zoro would still be able to read Sasuke's mind with Kenbun when they both currently have "7 layers" currently.

What do you mean?

 

[Godernet]

What do you mean?

mind reading is an aspect of mental manip

if you have mind manip resistance, people can't read your mind(there are even examples of this in naruto.)

so if both have 7 layers.

and you guys are arguing Sasuke's GJ wouldn't work because of layers

why would Zoro be able to read Sasuke's mind with kenbun?

 

[DavidTPPM]

mind reading is an aspect of mental manip

if you have mind manip resistance, people can't read your mind(there are even examples of this in naruto.)

so if both have 7 layers.

and you guys are arguing Sasuke's GJ wouldn't work because of layers

why would Zoro be able to read Sasuke's mind with kenbun?

Sauce has 7 layers of mental hax?

 

[Godernet]

Sauce has 7 layers of mental hax?

actually more just not on the profile yet

yes 7 of mental hax and mental hax resistance

 

[DavidTPPM]

actually more just not on the profile yet

yes

Wtf did I miss? I thought he capped at like 3 or 4?

Not me pretending like I keep up with Narutoverse on the wiki

 

[Godernet]

Wtf did I miss? I thought he capped at like 3 or 4?

no? he's been at that for a while, it might be double that soon when someone gets around to revising that

The Last Sasuke's Genjutsu > Infinite Tsukuyomi > Kotoamatsukami > EMS Sasuke's Genjutsu/Tsukuyomi > Regular Mangekyō Sharingan Genjutsu > 3T Sharingan Genjutsu > Regular Genjutsu

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

mind reading is an aspect of mental manip

if you have mind manip resistance, people can't read your mind(there are even examples of this in naruto.)

so if both have 7 layers.

and you guys are arguing Sasuke's GJ wouldn't work because of layers

why would Zoro be able to read Sasuke's mind with kenbun?

Because It's not literal mind reading.

 

[Godernet]

Because It's not literally mind reading.

what is it then?

 

[DavidTPPM]

no? he's been at that for a while, it might be double that soon when someone gets around to revising that

The Last Sasuke's Genjutsu > Infinite Tsukuyomi > Kotoamatsukami > EMS Sasuke's Genjutsu/Tsukuyomi > Regular Mangekyō Sharingan Genjutsu > 3T Sharingan Genjutsu > Regular Genjutsu

Oh nice then we ballin

 

[Kachon123]

Excuse me? You're saying that during the time where Sasuke thinks about teleporting Zoro will
1. Mentally realize he's teleporting
2. Turn in that direction
3. Send attacks in that direction
That's completely impossible unless Zoro was capable of both thinking and moving like gajillion times faster than Sasuke can even THINK.

When sensing emotions, reading minds and intent, the Kenbun user feels the user's intent as if they were the person themselves.

When preforming an action there are three steps:

1. The brain decides that it's going to do something
2. The brain thinks to do the action
3. The body acts

The first one is in the subconscious, the second in the conscious mind, and the third is the actual action.

Kenbun allows users to pick up on the target's mind and feel everything they're feeling first hand. What this means is that the moment Sasuke's brain decides what it's going to do, Zoro knows as well simultaneously, but because Kenbushoku gives a perception and reaction speed increase, he's able to move and act before Sasuke is able to. That's why Kenbun is so powerful and users are able to act before their enemies.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

what is it then?

there are different kinds... One is by sensing your intentions essentially reading their will from their presence and another one can sense via your emotions

Sharpen your senses and realize the presence!
It is a high spirit that detects the presence of creatures around you and their emotions. It is effective not only in battle, but also in foreseeing and avoiding danger!

Those who possess the Haiki-Color are so good at evasion that they can see their opponent's movements even with their eyes closed! Even if they are attacked from a blind spot, they can instantly evade.

Read the hearts and minds of opponents and sense the next action they will take! This ability can be applied in a variety of situations, such as avoiding an enemy's attack or foreseeing his/her movement to attack.

Hear and See
The ability to sense the presence of others. By enhancing this ability, one can avoid attacks from blind spots, and read the number of enemies and what they are going to do next. The "mind net" of the sky islands is a similar power.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Yeah again I never said experience is ALL to combat skill. But it is EXTREMELY important. Like I noted before (which you kinda ignored iirc), Code considered this experience amp to be a greater boost to combat power than a literal hundreds of billions of times AP buff.

He said it was even moreso the fact that there was an experience amp, not that the experience was far beyond that AP boost. That sounds like absolute wank.

To what? I can't concede on a point I didn't make. Ig I "concede" to the strawman of my point that you came up with.

On experience = skill.

So? That kinda just means he's more versatile lol

Obviously he's less versatile, but he's far more in-tune with his swordsmanship than Sasuke is with his.

That doesn't give him more "qualitative" experience lol.

Yes it does if he's spent it developing his own f***** sword style and was training to reach the goal of becoming the greatest swordsman in the world.

So your argument is that Zoro is more reliant on his sword? That's a bad thing lol.

He's better at swordsmanship than Sasuke by the fact that the sword is a part of him. How is it a bad thing?

What? Is that like an in universe limitation or something? Because fire absolutely can be cut in half with enough force

Proof that it can be?

No idea what that is.

Cutting something in half.

Cutting water isn't even a superhuman feat...

It's not superhuman, it's beyond that when it's literally split in two.

Acrobatics like Sasuke doing backflips while controlling his sword with his feet, then kicking it towards Momoshiki?

Acrobatics like jumping from cliff to cliff cutting fire dragons, again, a Goken feat.

?

Yes, because he didn't even use Haki.

In universe maybe. Last time I checked OP doesn't have aliens that are thousands of years old who's skill is superior to billions of times AP advantages.

Again, that sounds like wank and my previous point debunked that.

Wdym "that don't involve Naruto and Sasuke"?

If they don't have feats on their own, then they are really only scaling to Naruto and Sasuke, especially since those thousands of years could just be them twiddling their fingers. Which is why I need feats.

How?

Blitzing far superior precog than the sharingan, on a person who blitzed someone with better precog than him.

Narutos shunshin allowed him to blitz Kaguya who has interdimensional danger sensing from like 200 meters away despite Kaguya herself being faster than Naruto.

Interdimensional danger sense isn't shit, that just means it has more range, not more potency

So, shunshin level.

Bruh. Blitzing Kenbun is far better.

That's 2 or 3 blitz tiers at best. Bro is not reacting to a chidori amped Susanoo.

Yes he is with Kenbun + mind reading + higher reaction speed.

So? Wtf does that even mean?

Zoro would realize Sasuke is adjusting to his Haki and begin starting to make more unpredictable movements and start adapting to him learning about the voice of all things before Sasuke starts making plans, since Zoro thinks on his feet and would be trouble to Sasuke who makes plans.

Because all his actual on screen fights were WITH Naruto? Idk what are you trying to say here.

Even in his solo fights he doesn't use Ameno offensively that much.

Zoro can outspeed instantaneous teleportation? Man ain't no way

Zoro will see where he will appear, then BEFORE he teleports, will move there and Sasuke will teleport, leaving him vulnerable.

So again, you're saying Zoro will outspeed teleportation which is absolutely crazy.

No, I'm saying he will read his mind BEFORE he teleports, and appear there before he teleports to attack him from when he appears.

 

[Godernet]

there are different kinds... One is by sensing your intentions essentially reading their will from their presence and another one can sense can sense via your emotions

those are both just forms of mind manip

empathic manip is associated with mind manip unless mechanically different.

And in Naruto a persons consciousness and soul are directly linked to one of the main two energies that chakra is comprised of, to the point where sharingan users can astral project themselves into your conscious and interact with your soul and can also mental manip souls.

so will-based mind reading isnt working either

I don't think either of these methods is working on Sasuke.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

those are both just forms of mind manip

No... They aren't manipulating your mind in anyway

Naruta can sense emotions as well... Obs Haki does that but in many more ways and actually knows your future by doing that

empathic manip is associated with mind manip unless mechanically different.

It is mechanically different

Sasuke does not have a resistance against enhanced senses or information analysis

 

[KingTempest]

if you have mind manip resistance, people can't read your mind(there are even examples of this in naruto.)

Where are there examples of people not being able to hear your inner thoughts in Naruto

All because someone has resistance from mindhax doesn't mean they have resistance from hearing thoughts. Different types of resistances, and saying resisting 1 means resisting all is just wrong

 

[Kachon123]

'

Vote.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

I quite honestly do not have the energy or drive needed to go through 11 pages of this debate so may someone please sum up their respective wincons?

 

[Robo432343]

I quite honestly do not have the energy or drive needed to go through 11 pages of this debate so may someone please sum up their respective wincons?

Sasuke:
Higher AP and durability initially
Versatility
Teleportation
Shadow Clones
Better Stamina than En-Ō Zoro
Better and more hax

Zoro:
Superior precog
Higher AP with Haōshoku Infusion, Enma Unleashed, or En-Ō
Range and AoE
Durability Negating attacks
Resists Sasuke's Hax abilities with Haki
Can cut Fire Styles and Amaterasu with Flame Rend

6 wincons vs 6 wincons
vote incon like me

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

I quite honestly do not have the energy or drive needed to go through 11 pages of this debate so may someone please sum up their respective wincons?

Sasuke:

• Better Versatility
• Better stamina against KoH
• Better base AP
• Better overall range with more techniques

Zoro:

• More skilled
• Better precog
• Better speed and reaction amps, some of which are blitzes
• Dura neg
• Higher AP via Hao infusion and has one shot capabilities with KoH
• Higher LS

Also Zoro has accelerated development, so as the fight goes on he gets stronger and faster.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Sasuke:
Higher AP and durability initially
Versatility
Teleportation

Sure

Shadow Clones

Extremely OOC

Better Stamina than En-Ō Zoro
Better and more hax

Zoro:
Superior precog
Higher AP with Haōshoku Infusion, Enma Unleashed, or En-Ō
Range and AoE
Durability Negating attacks
Resists Sasuke's Hax abilities with Haki
Can cut Fire Styles and Amaterasu with Flame Rend

6 wincons vs 6 wincons
vote incon like me

That's 5 for sauce, 6 for moss

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Sasuke:

• Better Versatility
• Better stamina against KoH
• Better base AP
• Better overall range with more techniques

Zoro:

• More skilled
• Better precog
• Better speed and reaction amps, some of which are blitzes
• Dura neg
• Higher AP via Hao infusion and has one shot capabilities with KoH
• Higher LS

Also Zoro has accelerated development, so as the fight goes on he gets stronger and faster.

Sasuke:
Higher AP and durability initially
Versatility
Teleportation
Shadow Clones
Better Stamina than En-Ō Zoro
Better and more hax

Zoro:
Superior precog
Higher AP with Haōshoku Infusion, Enma Unleashed, or En-Ō
Range and AoE
Durability Negating attacks
Resists Sasuke's Hax abilities with Haki
Can cut Fire Styles and Amaterasu with Flame Rend

6 wincons vs 6 wincons
vote incon like me

Ngl Zoro may take this but I'm really not sure

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Ngl Zoro may take this but I'm really not sure

It's up to you, we kinda need votes for anything

 

[SlendVeny]

Sasuke:
Higher AP and durability initially
Versatility
Teleportation
Shadow Clones
Better Stamina than En-Ō Zoro
Better and more hax

Zoro:
Superior precog
Higher AP with Haōshoku Infusion, Enma Unleashed, or En-Ō
Range and AoE
Durability Negating attacks
Resists Sasuke's Hax abilities with Haki
Can cut Fire Styles and Amaterasu with Flame Rend

6 wincons vs 6 wincons
vote incon like me

Sasuke also has a massive increase in stats with Susano'o, which he can activate pretty much as fast as he can think.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Sasuke also has a massive increase in stats with Susano'o, which he can activate pretty much as fast as he can think.

But just like En-Ō, it also taxes him stamina wise, plus the fact that it causes passive damage to him, so it isn't a perfect amp.

 

[Robo432343]

Zoro:

• More skilled

more skilled overall??
i thought we all agreed zoro is more skilled in swordsmanship but sasuke is more skilled in hand to hand
i dont think saying whose more skilled should be a wincon because because are equally skilled

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

more skilled overall??
i thought we all agreed zoro is more skilled in swordsmanship but sasuke is more skilled in hand to hand

Well, not really. People argued Sasuke was either on par or superior than Zoro in swordsmanship, which is a completely bogus claim, plus this Sasuke uses his sword a LOT more than his teen version, so swordsmanship will be a huge part, which Zoro has more than enough skill to take him on in, and enough to prove extremely dangerous to him to the point where Sasuke will get overwhelmed.

 

[SlendVeny]

But just like En-Ō, it also taxes him stamina wise, plus the fact that it causes passive damage to him, so it isn't a perfect amp.

Susano'o is barely shown to affect Sasuke at this point, it's nowhere near Enma Unleashed's cost.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Susano'o is barely shown to affect Sasuke at this point, it's nowhere near Enma Unleashed's cost.

En-Ō cost is also to be taken with a grain of salt since Zoro was also constantly getting his Haki drained by an unperfected Enma, and was also injured and beaten down from his battle with King. Current Zoro can use Enma just fine, although En-Ō is mostly a finisher, like Kaioken.

 

[SlendVeny]

En-Ō cost is also to be taken with a grain of salt since Zoro was also constantly getting his Haki drained by an unperfected Enma, and was also injured and beaten down from his battle with King. Current Zoro can use Enma just fine, although En-Ō is mostly a finisher, like Kaioken.

He can use Enma itself. He doesn't use Enma Unleashed very often.

 

[Kachon123]

Sasuke also has a massive increase in stats with Susano'o, which he can activate pretty much as fast as he can think.

Zoro's AP is still above Susano'o's durability. With any attack, or even with Goken he'd slice through it like butter.

 

[Nierre]

Better precog

"better precog" doesn't matter in this case as they effectively do the same thing.

if one character A can read body movements and character B can read intent, unless the other character can fight without intent, it doesn't matter because they both end up reading the person's next moves.

More skilled

Arguably.

Better speed and reaction amps, some of which are blitzes

better speed amps yeah, but what reaction amps? If this is referring to Kenbun, Sharingan has its own reaction amps that allow it to react to characters who are equal to them, in slow motion (or stationary i forgot), as shown in Nard vs Sauce in VoTE 1. So their arguably comparable, similar to precog.

Higher LS

Doesn't matter, AFAIK Zoro doesn't use LS to his advantage in his fights.

Shadow Clones

Not in character

Range

not sure how true this is but could be wrong.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

"better precog" doesn't matter in this case as they effectively do the same thing.

if one character A can read body movements and character B can read intent, unless the other character can fight without intent, it doesn't matter because they both end up reading the person's next moves.

What I mean is that Zoro has more ways to predict Sasuke with Kenbun compared to the Sharingan since Kenbun has mind reading, precog, and emotion sensing, so he simply has more abilities in terms of prediction. They both lead to the same deal of predicting the other, it's just that Zoro has more ways to do it.

Arguably.

Swordsmanship wise, absolutely, overall skill, debatable. Sasuke uses his sword in this key very commonly, so the argument of Zoro's swordsmanship is very relevant when Sasuke uses his sword more often in this key.

better speed amps yeah, but what reaction amps? If this is referring to Kenbun, Sharingan has its own reaction amps that allow it to react to characters who are equal to them, in slow motion (or stationary i forgot), as shown in Nard vs Sauce in VoTE 1. So their arguably comparable, similar to precog.

Zoro has higher reactions both naturally and via Kenbun. So yes, Zoro has reaction amps, and as pointed out somewhere here (I ain't searching for that shit) a random girl with Kenbun was able to read attacks from Enel and warn Luffy, which means Zoro has a pretty huge reaction boost.

Doesn't matter, AFAIK Zoro doesn't use LS to his advantage in his fights.

Still somewhat relevant since if they get into a sword clash Zoro can easily brush him off.

Not in character

As I addressed. Sasuke almost never uses them in combat, he only really used them to either appear in places when he can't, or to train his students, but he almost never uses them in combat.

not sure how true this is but could be wrong.

More range in terms of raw distance? Maybe. Better range with more techniques, definitely up Sasuke's avenue.

 

[Nierre]

What I mean is that Zoro has more ways to predict Sasuke with Kenbun compared to the Sharingan since Kenbun has mind reading, precog, and emotion sensing, so he simply has more abilities in terms of prediction. They both lead to the same deal of predicting the other, it's just that Zoro has more ways to do it.

yep fair.

Swordsmanship wise, absolutely, overall, debatable.

yuh

Zoro has higher reactions both naturally and via Kenbun.

naturally how?

Still somewhat relevant since if they get into a sword clash Zoro can easily brush him off.

fair

As I addressed. Sasuke almost never uses them in combat, he only really used them to either appear in places when he can't, or to train his students, but he almost never uses them in combat.

yes

More range in terms of raw distance? Maybe. Better range with more techniques, definitely up Sasuke's avenue.

yeah

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

naturally how?

Idk, it just says so on the profile

 

[SlendVeny]

Zoro's AP is still above Susano'o's durability. With any attack, or even with Goken he'd slice through it like butter.

Yeah, his AP is higher with Hao Infusion/Enma Unleashed/KoH, but Susano'o is still genuinely a massive amp. Itachi, who had far inferior eyes, basically became nearly 100 times as strong with only the Armored Susano'o.

Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o was superior to his Senjutsu Susano'o, which was 100 Teratons, in a time when his base was 4.3 Gigatons.

The Susano'o has an incredible amount of power to it in every layer, and each layer is greatly superior to the last.

That's all I'm trying to say. I know Goken duranegs it, but the Susano'o is still a notable advantage Sasuke has.

(That said, a lot of the stuff with the Susano'o/Kurama Avatar scaling needs revisions, I won't go into too much detail here)

 

[Kachon123]

If you understand how Zoro can still pretty easily cut through the Susano'o then how exactly is it a notable advantage?