DEATH BATTLE! Discussion Thread (All-time Death Battle Spoilers Alert)

[Tipper17]

 

[Loh67867]

Miles vs Static

But.... They're both black... It doesn't make any sense

 

[TMaakkonen]

But.... They're both black... It doesn't make any sense

I think they misread and just meant general "DB is racist" because one MilesStatic connection is that they are both black :V

 

[Rayfire]

HOLY PEAK

 

[SpecterSkater]

Havent watched most of Ash-nime and only clips of Yugioh but from vibes:

• AP you can always argue Yugi has edge, basic feats wise Moon destroying > non-legendary feats, Infinite Exodia > Ultra Beasts, Yubel scaling > Creation Trio avatars
• Yugi has "destroy monsters" effects which Ash's mons dont resist
• Ash's mons have not been taught most of support moves, making them not optimal here esp. if Gengar is only one with any hax and in general 4 move limit doesnt help
• Yugi has a lot of strong effects like "stop opponent from attacking for few turns" which factoring Ash's offensive focus really hurts him here
• Raw physicals despite Ash having those Gen3 anime stuff like chugging logs, Yugi apparently has armor that made him "so long gay Bowser" a dragon so uhh
• And if Yugi is allowed any lenience with Shadow Game powers he could just Mind Crush Ash immediately, Ash apparently resists mind control in Gen5 (because he was too stupid lol) but not in Gen8 but Mind Crush is an attack so that wouldnt help as much

I dunno, with like equal or better speed, Ash could still crumble and end up in a bad spot really fast. Reddit doesnt seem to factor this and just think Ash could like dodge everything Yugi throws, but I could see this being nasty stomp tbh.

I think I agree with most of this except the "General 4 move limit" thing. That's a game limitation and isn't really a part of the show's mechanics. Especially since even back in Pokemon vs Digimon they didn't limit Charizard to only 4 moves either.

I'm always iffy about Pokemon matchups because their feats are incredibly inconsistent within their own universe, sometimes moreso than some Marve/DC characters. There's the varying sizes of legendaries, Pokedex entries, unintended scaling (Listen Ash gang, it's funny that Ash can carry Cosmoem casually when it weighs a ton, but I don't think the show writers took that into consideration when they had him lift it. They just wanted a cute moment).

 

[TMaakkonen]

I think I agree with most of this except the "General 4 move limit" thing. That's a game limitation and isn't really a part of the show's mechanics. Especially since even back in Pokemon vs Digimon they didn't limit Charizard to only 4 moves either.

I'm always iffy about Pokemon matchups because their feats are incredibly inconsistent within their own universe, sometimes moreso than some Marve/DC characters. There's the varying sizes of legendaries, Pokedex entries, unintended scaling (Listen Ash gang, it's funny that Ash can carry Cosmoem casually when it weighs a ton, but I don't think the show writers took that into consideration when they had him lift it. They just wanted a cute moment).

4 move limit is weird. Yeah, in anime its not quite a thing, but Im pretty sure they still mostly only have Pokemon do 4 moves per battle mostly nowadays. Ash's Snorlax using 6 moves is kinda outlier. Ofc, there is technically no true rule to it but Ash's mons never fully utilized most important status moves.

Pokemon is basically my "Top 4 verses used in DB that are actually very inconsistent but they dont get called out for it", but tbh I cant actually use that so I have to allow all the unfunny shit. Hell, I forgot Gardevoir's black holes so maybe in low-ends Ash's mons can take AP? But if we allow that then Yugi still can take AP via better high-ends.

 

[SpecterSkater]

4 move limit is weird. Yeah, in anime its not quite a thing, but Im pretty sure they still mostly only have Pokemon do 4 moves per battle mostly nowadays. Ash's Snorlax using 6 moves is kinda outlier. Ofc, there is technically no true rule to it but Ash's mons never fully utilized most important status moves.

Pokemon is basically my "Top 4 verses used in DB that are actually very inconsistent but they dont get called out for it", but tbh I cant actually use that so I have to allow all the unfunny shit. Hell, I forgot Gardevoir's black holes so maybe in low-ends Ash's mons can take AP? But if we allow that then Yugi still can take AP via better high-ends.

I did a little digging and Ash's mons aren't the only ones who broke the 4-move rule so I feel like that's not going to be in consideration for the fight.

Granted, I feel like if they do buy the inconsistent and varying levels of Mon power, then it's only fair they take things like flavor text and the anime's interpretation of card effects just as literally. And if that's the case then it's even worse for the Mons. Banish effects, destroy effects and hell, even some transmutation effects would be pretty easy to take down some of Ash's team.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I did a little digging and Ash's mons aren't the only ones who broke the 4-move rule so I feel like that's not going to be in consideration for the fight.

Granted, I feel like if they do buy the inconsistent and varying levels of Mon power, then it's only fair they take things like flavor text and the anime's interpretation of card effects just as literally. And if that's the case then it's even worse for the Mons. Banish effects, destroy effects and hell, even some transmutation effects would be pretty easy to take down some of Ash's team.

Yugi just having a full on hard counter specifically for the Tauros herd via Chain Destruction

 

[SpecterSkater]

I think one of the lesser talked about parts of Maka v Ruby is that the part that makes Ruby's own scythe unique (being a gun) is kind of a non-factor in this whole thing and that's... sad.

There's no evidence to show that the bullets it fires are any faster than usual bullets, which means they're easily parried away or dodged by Maka since her base form was seeing, reacting and deflecting lasers on the Moon. And if Ruby uses dust-infused bullets it's even more noticeable since according to Ruby's lore Hunters and Huntresses need to infuse them with their aura to make them the cool lightning/fire/ice etc versions of the bullets, which Maka can easily detect since sensing and realizing soul-based attacks is kind of what her whole series is based upon.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I think one of the lesser talked about parts of Maka v Ruby is that the part that makes Ruby's own scythe unique (being a gun) is kind of a non-factor in this whole thing and that's... sad.

There's no evidence to show that the bullets it fires are any faster than usual bullets, which means they're easily parried away or dodged by Maka since her base form was seeing, reacting and deflecting lasers on the Moon. And if Ruby uses dust-infused bullets it's even more noticeable since according to Ruby's lore Hunters and Huntresses need to infuse them with their aura to make them the cool lightning/fire/ice etc versions of the bullets, which Maka can easily detect since sensing and realizing soul-based attacks is kind of what her whole series is based upon.

Not as much of a non-factor as you'd think, Ruby can consistently tag FTL opponents with her bullets. And youre half correct, the elemental versions of the bullets are like that naturally, the bullets themselves have elemental Dust in them, but Ruby does need to infuse them with her Aura to work. Though Parrying them would be a bad idea because they'd still cause the elemental effects to occur (Illia being a prime example of this), and even if Maka dodges them they have an AoE that can affect her if they land anywhere near her.

 

[SpecterSkater]

Not as much of a non-factor as you'd think, Ruby can consistently tag FTL opponents with her bullets. And youre half correct, the elemental versions of the bullets are like that naturally, the bullets themselves have elemental Dust in them, but Ruby does need to infuse them with her Aura to work. Though Parrying them would be a bad idea because they'd still cause the elemental effects to occur (Illia being a prime example of this), and even if Maka dodges them they have an AoE that can affect her if they land anywhere near her.

While true Illia was still affected, she's uh... Not anywhere near a combat specialist like Maka. Her ability to perceive souls also gives her an understanding of what they do. I don't feel like it's too far of a reach that with her reaction time realize what the bullets infused with parts of Ruby's aura (and therefore soul) would do and react accordingly. Hell, there's even the chance Soul can just cancel out the aura and render the dust properties inert via Soul Hacking or similar techniques.

The whole "hitting FTL opponents with supersonic bullets" just feels like not understanding how speed works, but also I don't imagine most writers storyboard up scenes with vs debating calcs in mind. If you chalk it up to "firing it ahead of them before they have a chance to react" I guess but that'd mean the FTL opponent doesn't have FTL reaction speeds. But I digress.

 

[Joycap]

I think I agree with most of this except the "General 4 move limit" thing. That's a game limitation and isn't really a part of the show's mechanics. Especially since even back in Pokemon vs Digimon they didn't limit Charizard to only 4 moves either.

I'm always iffy about Pokemon matchups because their feats are incredibly inconsistent within their own universe, sometimes moreso than some Marve/DC characters. There's the varying sizes of legendaries, Pokedex entries, unintended scaling (Listen Ash gang, it's funny that Ash can carry Cosmoem casually when it weighs a ton, but I don't think the show writers took that into consideration when they had him lift it. They just wanted a cute moment).

4 move limit is weird. Yeah, in anime its not quite a thing, but Im pretty sure they still mostly only have Pokemon do 4 moves per battle mostly nowadays. Ash's Snorlax using 6 moves is kinda outlier. Ofc, there is technically no true rule to it but Ash's mons never fully utilized most important status moves.

Pokemon is basically my "Top 4 verses used in DB that are actually very inconsistent but they dont get called out for it", but tbh I cant actually use that so I have to allow all the unfunny shit. Hell, I forgot Gardevoir's black holes so maybe in low-ends Ash's mons can take AP? But if we allow that then Yugi still can take AP via better high-ends.

Wasn't there that guy in the anime with a Dragonite using more than 4 moves? Forgot his name, but I know a few people have bought him up.

I'd also bring up the 'more than 4 moves' thing being stupid in Red vs Tai, but most everything in this episode was stupid, so not much needs to be said there.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

While true Illia was still affected, she's uh... Not anywhere near a combat specialist like Maka.

If anything Illia is more skilled. Maka is a canonically unskilled fighter.

Her ability to perceive souls also gives her an understanding of what they do. I don't feel like it's too far of a reach that with her reaction time realize what the bullets infused with parts of Ruby's aura (and therefore soul) would do and react accordingly. Hell, there's even the chance Soul can just cancel out the aura and render the dust properties inert via Soul Hacking or similar techniques.

That wouldnt nullify the Dust though, they'd still have the elemental properties.

The whole "hitting FTL opponents with supersonic bullets" just feels like not understanding how speed works, but also I don't imagine most writers storyboard up scenes with vs debating calcs in mind. If you chalk it up to "firing it ahead of them before they have a chance to react" I guess but that'd mean the FTL opponent doesn't have FTL reaction speeds. But I digress.

We treat it as a skill feat

 

[SpecterSkater]

Wasn't there that guy in the anime with a Dragonite using more than 4 moves? Forgot his name, but I know a few people have bought him up.

I'd also bring up the 'more than 4 moves' thing being stupid in Red vs Tai, but most everything in this episode was stupid, so not much needs to be said there.

There was, yeah. There were also several cases of Pokemon in Beauty Contests using like 6 moves. The precedent is there, but like I said: very unlikely to matter in the grand scheme of things. As @TMaakkonen pointed out Ash isn't exactly known for teaching his Mons any of the status/buff/debuff moves so it's not like the team is getting any extra support during the fight (in most interpretations)

I'm sure you can point to an episode where one of his team had something like Protect/Light Screen/Etc but for most of his tenure Ash was an attack-focused guy who used strategies to better maneuver his Pokemon

​

 

[SpecterSkater]

If anything Illia is more skilled. Maka is a canonically unskilled fighter.

That wouldnt nullify the Dust though, they'd still have the elemental properties.

We treat it as a skill feat

Illia was a guerilla fighter at best, Maka as an 'unskilled fighter' was still fighting against opponents with years of combat experience. Not to mention top of her class at DWMA. Lots of people forget but Maka and Soul were one Witch Soul away from already becoming a Death Scythe at the very beginning of the series, they only failed when Blair tricked them and made them start from scratch.

The Dust has that property because of the infusion of the Aura. From how I've read how Aura and Dust interact, with no Aura it's not 'activated' per se.

And yeah, treating it as a skill feat is fine. Not everything in fiction is going to make sense in a vs debate anyway with writer's intent /= matching with how stats and calculations work. I still don't believe her bullets, infused or otherwise, will be a big factor in the overall debate. Her semblance is carrying a ton of the weight here.

 

[TMaakkonen]

Wasnt the Dragonite one Gen1 anime? Orange Islands filler? Whats more recent 5+ moves in one battle examples I wonder. Hell, in Gen7 anime Ash struggled to lift a log. But everyone rather wants to use Gen3 where Ash throws one easily. Such is the way of modern VS.

 

[SpecterSkater]

Wasnt the Dragonite one Gen1 anime? Orange Islands filler? Whats more recent 5+ moves in one battle examples I wonder. Hell, in Gen7 anime Ash struggled to lift a log. But everyone rather wants to use Gen3 where Ash throws one easily. Such is the way of modern VS.

Basically. Though I'd say the Cosmoem 'feat' is more recent but still just... perhaps not thought out in a 'vs debating' sense.

Ash over here keeping the 'Golden Tree' moment into an 'Actual Tree' moment is kind of funny ngl.

 

[AcidSilver]

I'm so tired man. Just get rid of this damn ability at this point, why even bother having it around?

 

[Loh67867]

I'm so tired man. Just get rid of this damn ability at this point, why even bother having it around?

Penance stare literally works however the writers want lmfao

 

[Tipper17]

Penance stare literally works however the writers want lmfao

This be cosmic ghost Rider but point still stands

If modern marvel wasn't filled with hacks and dog shit writers one of the most blatant bullet point rule would be how the penance stare works
No ifs or ands about it just this is how it works

 

[TMaakkonen]

Jobber Stare doing its thing again :^)

To credit Ash, his skill is improvisation. The Onix sprinkler incident, Thunder Armor, Xscissor breaking trick room, Sirfetched using his shield to break stealth rocks etc. These are decent at least. But VS Yugi not quite applicable. If Yugi can prevent any attacks or just insta kill monsters then uhh not much to improvise there.

 

[SpecterSkater]

Jobber Stare doing its thing again :^)

To credit Ash, his skill is improvisation. The Onix sprinkler incident, Thunder Armor, Xscissor breaking trick room, Sirfetched using his shield to break stealth rocks etc. These are decent at least. But VS Yugi not quite applicable. If Yugi can prevent any attacks or just insta kill monsters then uhh not much to improvise there.

My feelings exactly. Like I'm sure Ash can probably try and tactic his team around some of the monsters Yugi sends out, but I don't think it's going to have tactics around Dark Hole, Swords of Revealing Light, etc.

 

[JoshDoshMosh]

Ngl, that comparison of Ultima to Alien X was pretty damn accurate considering some of the reactions I've seen to the episode. Both are the "powerscale character" that their fandoms use to dunk on everyone and then they both lose to a comic book herald with a green color scheme which results in people saying that Death Battle is biased and that they completely misunderstood said character's power and that they're actually much stronger than what Death Battle placed them at.

“Guys you don’t understand Alien X is omnipotent”

 

[ZeNoviceArtist]

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

This be cosmic ghost Rider but point still stands

Which is actually even more bullshit since, in Donny Cates' Cosmic Ghost Rider comic, Cosmic Ghost Rider has his own version of the Penance Stare which ignores the requirements for it to work and can use it to kill anyone regardless if they feel regret or not.

Yeah I know it's foolish to want comic book writers to be consistent on all boards, but at the very least they could've done some research before releasing this.

 

[Tots_Real]

I'm so tired man. Just get rid of this damn ability at this point, why even bother having it around?

My headcanon is that Ghost Rider has two abilities named penance stare but keeps selecting the shitty one without realizing it.

 

[AcidSilver]

4 move limit is weird. Yeah, in anime its not quite a thing, but Im pretty sure they still mostly only have Pokemon do 4 moves per battle mostly nowadays. Ash's Snorlax using 6 moves is kinda outlier. Ofc, there is technically no true rule to it but Ash's mons never fully utilized most important status moves.

Pokemon is basically my "Top 4 verses used in DB that are actually very inconsistent but they dont get called out for it", but tbh I cant actually use that so I have to allow all the unfunny shit. Hell, I forgot Gardevoir's black holes so maybe in low-ends Ash's mons can take AP? But if we allow that then Yugi still can take AP via better high-ends.

Like 3/4ths of the hax that people give to Ash's Gengar is just taking feats from random Gastly/Haunter/Gengar that appeared in the first two seasons where the rules of what Pokemon could actually do were incredibly inconsistent. Said powers would then never show up again as the rules of the universe got more solid. Let's be real, how much of Gengar's hax is stuff that we've actually seen Ash's Gengar do and how much is just "this one Genger did this ability in the 20th episode of the very first season" tier scaling?

Feel like almost any other setting wouldn't have anywhere near as much leeway for that kind of scaling.

Edit: This also applies to a bunch of other Pokemon but with Ash vs Yugi coming up eventually and with how people treat Gengar as this trump card he's just the most obvious example.

 

[JoshDoshMosh]

But.... They're both black... It doesn't make any sense

Some dude called miles vs static racist cause they thought the only connection was that they were black

 

[TMaakkonen]

Like 3/4ths of the hax that people give to Ash's Gengar is just taking feats from random Gastly/Haunter/Gengar that appeared in the first two seasons where the rules of what Pokemon could actually do were incredibly inconsistent. Said powers would then never show up again as the rules of the universe got more solid. Let's be real, how much of Gengar's hax is stuff that we've actually seen Ash's Gengar do and how much is just "this one Genger did this ability in the 20th episode of the very first season" tier scaling?

Feel like almost any other setting wouldn't have anywhere near as much leeway for that kind of scaling.

Edit: This also applies to a bunch of other Pokemon but with Ash vs Yugi coming up eventually and with how people treat Gengar as this trump card he's just the most obvious example.

Ofc people are way too lenient on Pokemon. Ash's really only used Will O Wisp to burn and halve damage. God I hope they dont sun disk this loool

 

[AcidSilver]

One thing that I've noticed not to many people bring up is just the sheer amount of orders that Ash would have to give out. His Pokemon aren't completely useless without orders looking at you Red vs Tai but they do need Ash to tell them what to do if they want to fight at their full potential while Yugi can just let his cards do their thing once putting them in position. The problem is that Ash just hasn't ever kept track of that many Pokemon at once while basically every match in Yugioh involves several cards being in play at the same time. Think the max amount of Pokemon that Ash has properly ordered in a match has been like 3.

So Yugi can be on the offensive more than Ash since he doesn't need to keep watch over every single one of his cards for them to be used to their full effect.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Pokemon loses because its theme song is worse than YuGiOh

 

[Epiccheev]

Yugi will cause a mass extinction event if he hits that turn 2 Raigeki on Ash.

 

[AcidSilver]

Yugi will cause a mass extinction event if he hits that turn 2 Raigeki on Ash.

Can't believe that Ash vs Yugi already got leaked.

 

[Tipper17]

 

[StekFence]

One thing that I've noticed not to many people bring up is just the sheer amount of orders that Ash would have to give out. His Pokemon aren't completely useless without orders looking at you Red vs Tai but they do need Ash to tell them what to do if they want to fight at their full potential while Yugi can just let his cards do their thing once putting them in position. The problem is that Ash just hasn't ever kept track of that many Pokemon at once while basically every match in Yugioh involves several cards being in play at the same time. Think the max amount of Pokemon that Ash has properly ordered in a match has been like 3.

So Yugi can be on the offensive more than Ash since he doesn't need to keep watch over every single one of his cards for them to be used to their full effect.

I think he had in a movie before

 

[Alexander]

well, everyone is already saying that it is a stomp and Maka is winning, like Miles vs Deku, Shigaraki vs Mahito, Doomslayer vs master chief

 

[Tipper17]

https://vxtwitter.com/DevilArtemisX/status/1960738474920722830

well, everyone is already saying that it is a stomp and Maka is winning, like Miles vs Deku, Shigaraki vs Mahito, Doomslayer vs master chief

well yeah it is

 

[TartaChocholate]

My theory is that to find a compromise between Duel Monsters and a Pokémon Battling, Ash vs Yugi will be them playing Pokemon TCG.

 

[AcidSilver]

My theory is that to find a compromise between Duel Monsters and a Pokémon Battling, Ash vs Yugi will be them playing Pokemon TCG.

Ash is screwed then. Dude is gonna come in with only like 4 Pokemon because scalpers took the rest of the cards.

 

[PonePoster]

Folks mad they didn't use crossovers or focus on GIH mainly

they put GiH on fraudwatch during the QandA, saying that Godzilla didn't even fight "God", and that even if he did the statements from social media were nonsensical lol