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Also, a rather important detail is that Saber Shiki servant from F/GO is literally the same Void Shiki and not its manifestation, since Ryougi Shiki in 2016 is in a state between life and death, projecting herself into the Singularity as a servant. In the case of Saber Shiki, she personally manifests herself, occasionally taking control of the body (while being the same Root), so Saber Shiki and Void Shiki from KnK 8 are the same character.
 
You seem to be implying that there are plenty of nuances when there is really little amount of them, he's basically a reference to the ubermensch concept, not some kind of deeply layered psychological character in itself. His motivations and goals also aren't that hard to understand the moment you get it follows nihilism.
I don't know about Shiki but saying that Johan's psychology isn't complex is kinda weird. First off the fundamental idea of his character doesn't follow nihilism. It follows his ontological insecurity because of feeling unwanted by the world. The crossdressing also caused him identity issues and made him believe that he and his sister are the same. These are what resulted in his nihilistic nature. And then he becomes an emotionless Monster by absorbing his sister's memories and believing them to be his own which adds another psychological layer to him. And there's a lot more with him wanting to live a normal life deep down and feeling guilt for his actions and whatnot.
 
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No, that's not a misconception. An antagonist is a character anyway and can be whatever it is, just like the main character sometimes can be "not developped" and stay a "static" character. So either you can concede on this aspect or just dismiss the comparison because they're not the same, but then the entire comparison falls flat.
Well no, not really. Because fundamentally the antagonist only needs to serve the purpose of opposing the protagonist to be a good character. The protagonist has to do more. But even putting that aside, you have to take into account the types of characters that are being portrayed here.

I've yet to see how it is especially more fleshed out than Shiki though. Being mentionned by various characters doesn't make it enough for what you're assessing.
I didn't say that it's fleshed out because of that. It's fleshed out because it completely recontextualizes his character and develops him to drastic degrees.

That's not what a human character is though, he symbolizes how you can regain your humanity from nihilism and disappears at the end leaving an empty bed as the "Monster" (the actual symbol) fades away. Also, you yourself admitted that Johan "isn't supposed to change as an antagonist" so why arguing this ? Throughout the story, we never see Johan actually changing, he just disappears at the end as the "Monster" within him was killed during the Rurenheim facing scene, like the symbol he is.
I said an antagonist doesn't need to change. I also said that Johan does change anyway. The point is that development doesn't quite apply in the same way, though it absolutely is there. Bro went from the nameless monster to troubled human searching for an identity to lost person trying to fulfill his perfect suicide to finally someone who regained his sense of identity. That's actual development.

Explain why, then, as you've never explained exactly what makes him better than Shiki using these criteria, or again you can just concede that they are different so not comparable (typically, comparing motivation is just dishonest if you yourself said that they fill different roles). As for the symbolic part, that's just nihilism being deconstructed, as the "Monster" (or the Ubermensch) disappears at the end which indicates humanity winning over nihilism.
I did. I named several qualities as to why. How is motivation being compared dishonest. Johan's is more interesting. The entire point of monster is to figure it out. Unless it somehow underwhelmed you, which it didn't according to you, then this whole thing is useless.

Johan takes several different symbolic forms throughout the story. By the end he's one of the many symbols of humanity like you said. Man still has the mephistopheles stuff there though.

You seem to be implying that there are plenty of nuances when there is really little amount of them, he's basically a reference to the ubermensch concept, not some kind of deeply layered psychological character in itself. His motivations and goals also aren't that hard to understand the moment you get it follows nihilism.
He is not a reference to the ubermensch lmfao. The ubermensch is treated as if its form of morality is somehow not wrong at all lmfao. The ubermensch is the ideal human being (Johan automatically doesn't qualify) who doesn't obey conventional morality and follows his own morality and can't be defined under conventional morality (again, Johan isn't really freed from this). Hell, Johan's entire thing is that he enforces his nihilism onto others, therefore meaning he can't be an ubermensch.

His motivations don't follow nihilism. They're what lead to the nihilism to begin with.

And then right after admitting it, you're saying he is superior "in almost every way". Huge contradiction if you ask me, and once again how is he superior in almost every way if Shiki is more universal and diverse than he is ? That's a non-argument, I currently have a lot more reasons to say that Shiki is better than you do. So, elaborate on how he is more complex or simply concede that the comparison isn't possible.
That was a bit of a stretch by me. Besides, even taking that, I said "almost". Not much of a contradiction anyway. Your argument is the equivalent of saying that a character is good in all aspects while not excelling at one particular one, while another is god tier in several but lacking in others due to how his character is constructed, is somehow a better character. Not a totally accurate analogy, but you get the main point. Saying she's more universal and therefore better is dumb.

I did brought more, though, if you refuse to see it that's not really my problem. Besides, you didn't elaborate either so that's not a very relevant thing to say. And it's not like I will write a thousand words worth of an analysis or something if in the end you agree to stop comparing.
You quite literally did not elaborate on a single point you made apart from making a bunch of false ones on Johan lol. Nobody's asking you to write a thousand word essay. Just elaborate a bit lmao.

That's just reiterating a strawman. I didn't say they NEED to develop, I said they can, and Shiki (as a character) does it far more than Johan, that's it.
If you don't want to compare this because Johan doesn't specifically need to do that, then you admit the entire comparison is not good because both characters have entirely different functions. But, matter of fact, Shiki still has the upper hand concerning this, especially if you still want to argue that Johan is a "human" character (which he quite literally isn't) ; because, well, "humans" are supposed to change and experience a character journey. It's different from a concept or symbol being deconstructed by the narrative of a work of fiction (which is the case in Monster).
If they don't need to develop then why is development a factor in deciding who is better than the other. We aren't talking about why we prefer one character over the other. We're talking about why one character is written better. Meaning we'd be using some sort of objective metric in order to decide that. By agreeing that development is not at all necessary in this comparison, it's a non-argument to use it to begin with.

As for human characters changing, mate you need to watch some more movies. Human characters don't need to change. They need to feel human. One of the ways to do that is through change and growth. One of the ways.

Besides, Johan does change, if you read Monster.

You still didn't explain how this makes him more complex, so I disagree once again. You've even said "complex yet simple motivations", that's just word salad to me. And, for the sentence I've bolded, this is simply flat out wrong to compare their conclusions when their premise is literally not the same, which you didn't elaborated upon anyways, so uh yeah.
I just said that it was the execution. Complex yet simple is a weird way of saying that his motivations fundamentally can be dumbed down to being simple yet are executed in a way where it's complex.

Also, saying I didn't explain it while quoting a part where I literally did is a bit weird.

Don't care + didn't read.
Cope
 
If they don't need to develop then why is development a factor in deciding who is better than the other. We aren't talking about why we prefer one character over the other. We're talking about why one character is written better. Meaning we'd be using some sort of objective metric in order to decide that. By agreeing that development is not at all necessary in this comparison, it's a non-argument to use it to begin with.
Idk how you can measure objective writing without taking development into account. It's definitely an important aspect. Although whether the development makes the character better or not is definitely a subjective topic.
 
Can you read? When did I ever say Umineko was meant for battleboarding? Wasn't I only referring to DkD?
Idk you didn't refer to any of them in particular so I assumed it referred to both of them. Though even mentioning Umineko and DKD in the same sentence is an insult tbh. One of them is one of the best weeb media ever written while the other one is average light novel regurgitated diarrhoea.
 
Idk you didn't refer to any of them in particular so I assumed it referred to both of them. Though even mentioning Umineko and DKD in the same sentence is an insult tbh. One of them is one of the best weeb media ever written while the other one is average light novel regurgitated diarrhoea.
Idrc if you think they can't be compared together. I found both pretty much boring and I snoozed on both while reading them hence they are both snoozefest material.
 
Idrc if you think they can't be compared together. I found both pretty much boring and I snoozed on both while reading them hence they are both snoozefest material.
Yeah I don't think calling something snoozefest when comparing it to Nasu is something you wanna do since from what I heard many Nasu VNs are also considered snoozefests.
 
Yeah I don't think calling something snoozefest when comparing it to Nasu is something you wanna do since from what I heard many Nasu VNs are also considered snoozefests.
The only VN that could probably be a snoozefest is the old FSN. I've never seen anyone claim Nasu's VN are boring in the slightest.
 
I don't know about Shiki but saying that Johan's psychology isn't complex is kinda weird. First off the fundamental idea of his character doesn't follow nihilism. It follows his ontological insecurity because of feeling unwanted by the world. The crossdressing also caused him identity issues and made him believe that he and his sister are the same. These are what resulted in his nihilistic nature. And then he becomes an emotionless Monster by absorbing his sister's memories and believing them to be his own which adds another psychological layer to him. And there's a lot more with him wanting to live a normal life deep down and feeling guilt for his actions and whatnot.
Well if you don't read what I said that's not really my problem :
I didn't say it isn't complex at all, but simply far less
Well no, not really. Because fundamentally the antagonist only needs to serve the purpose of opposing the protagonist to be a good character. The protagonist has to do more. But even putting that aside, you have to take into account the types of characters that are being portrayed here.
That's the function of an antagonist, yes, but that doesn't mean that talking about character journey or emotional depth is irrelevant to an antagonist because clearly they can follow these criteria (by mirroring or paralleling the main character for instance). As for the types of characters, I agree, and this is why I'm saying the whole comparison falls apart if you don't take that into account.
I didn't say that it's fleshed out because of that. It's fleshed out because it completely recontextualizes his character and develops him to drastic degrees.
Then explain why it does and how it specifically means it is more fleshed out than Shiki.
I said an antagonist doesn't need to change. I also said that Johan does change anyway.
Then what is the relevance of saying that an antagonist doesn't need to change ? This isn't even countering my initial point to begin with.
The point is that development doesn't quite apply in the same way, though it absolutely is there. Bro went from the nameless monster to troubled human searching for an identity to lost person trying to fulfill his perfect suicide to finally someone who regained his sense of identity. That's actual development.
This... falls into what I've explained concerning narrative deconstruction of the Ubermensch, which was there from the beginning of the story (starting from what Johan has experienced in the Kinderheim 511). And again, I don't see how you will argue any objective superiority anyways, since their roles are not the same at all.
I did. I named several qualities as to why. How is motivation being compared dishonest. Johan's is more interesting. The entire point of monster is to figure it out. Unless it somehow underwhelmed you, which it didn't according to you, then this whole thing is useless.
Naming qualities isn't nearly enough to explain why he is better, so yeah elaborate on that unless you don't want to drop an extensively long character analysis which would have no relevance anyways because it fails to adress the point (being the comparison between both characters itself).
And you're not making any sense here, you can't say that "Johan is more interesting" without eventually explaining your take using your subjective opinion, which is why I said it is dishonest. Personally, I was far more interested into Shiki than him, and you cannot possibly tell me otherwise, because you're not me lol.
Johan takes several different symbolic forms throughout the story. By the end he's one of the many symbols of humanity like you said. Man still has the mephistopheles stuff there though.
Uh yeah well I know that.
He is not a reference to the ubermensch lmfao. The ubermensch is treated as if its form of morality is somehow not wrong at all lmfao. The ubermensch is the ideal human being (Johan automatically doesn't qualify) who doesn't obey conventional morality and follows his own morality and can't be defined under conventional morality (again, Johan isn't really freed from this). Hell, Johan's entire thing is that he enforces his nihilism onto others, therefore meaning he can't be an ubermensch.
The superman or superhuman (German: der Übermensch, [ˈʔyːbɐmɛnʃ] pronunciation) is a polysemous notion notably present in literature and philosophy, which generally represents the idea of superiority that a type of man (very often only ideal) would have acquired over the rest of the human race.
It is very often ideal, not everytime. In Monster, the Kinderheim 511 was supposed to psychologically manipulate children so that they become some sort of warriors. It was called "transformation of human beings", and Johan emerged as the only survivor of this experience. One of the guy who was directing the experience even called him "something more than a simple human being, he was also nearly a monster" and was "born to lead" like he was some kind of superior life form (which is supported by, like, almost the whole narrative and plot). He even finished his explanation by this quote "at the end of the world, there will be only one". So, yeah, it is a critique of that concept when applied under the prism of nihilism, idk what you're talking about.
His motivations don't follow nihilism. They're what lead to the nihilism to begin with.
It does though, as it was what explained his actions. And his motivations/actions are also what enforce nihilism on people, but was deconstructed by the narrative through Tenma for example. But that's not really relevant anyways.
That was a bit of a stretch by me. Besides, even taking that, I said "almost". Not much of a contradiction anyway. Your argument is the equivalent of saying that a character is good in all aspects while not excelling at one particular one, while another is god tier in several but lacking in others due to how his character is constructed, is somehow a better character. Not a totally accurate analogy, but you get the main point. Saying she's more universal and therefore better is dumb.
Um, yeah it is. Because if you admit that certain things aren't comparable because of different character roles, then almost everything falls apart due to how different both characters are. Also, I didn't say she is better because of that specifically, but it does tie with my other points about her complexity and how much she is layered.
You quite literally did not elaborate on a single point you made apart from making a bunch of false ones on Johan lol. Nobody's asking you to write a thousand word essay. Just elaborate a bit lmao.
I'll ignore that accusation because you're clearly just being disigenuous about what I said, and you didn't elaborate much either so that's not a very relevant thing to say. If I don't go in deep details (which I will not do anyways), simply elaborating on her character will be pointless because I assume you should know the character enough and also because it will not establish a definite superiority in any case since it doesn't adress the core point of this discussion, being how to compare both characters and which one is better.
If they don't need to develop then why is development a factor in deciding who is better than the other. We aren't talking about why we prefer one character over the other. We're talking about why one character is written better. Meaning we'd be using some sort of objective metric in order to decide that. By agreeing that development is not at all necessary in this comparison, it's a non-argument to use it to begin with.
... huh ? Because either you admit it is a relevant criteria and that Shiki gets the point, or you don't adress it because it is not relevant to Johan (which you seem to argue it is, so, decide ?). The second choice leading to the conclusion that both characters are fundamentally different and the "objective" comparison isn't even possible to begin with.
As for human characters changing, mate you need to watch some more movies. Human characters don't need to change. They need to feel human. One of the ways to do that is through change and growth. One of the ways.
Most of the time, static characters are either symbols, or don't need to change because of their role in the narrative. Humans are subject to emotional depth and existential journey. So, if the character is already "feeling" human at the beginning of the film and there is no change, no plot or ways to develop the narrative and the character(s), then just don't make a film about that and call it a day, because it is useless and meaningless. Or, if you want to be very specific, it can be a work of fiction that reflects on what makes the character in question already "feeling" human, but it would be very picky to argue that applies to the general concept of a "human" character.
Besides, Johan does change, if you read Monster.
Refer to my above points.
I just said that it was the execution. Complex yet simple is a weird way of saying that his motivations fundamentally can be dumbed down to being simple yet are executed in a way where it's complex.
Once again, this fails to adress why it would be more complex than Shiki, especially if it's a matter of narration itself. So I don't see the need of saying all of that anyways.
Also, saying I didn't explain it while quoting a part where I literally did is a bit weird.
This is what you said :
And the contrast between that and him by the end when he's proven wrong and regains his humanity is done better than her.
You just vaguely talked about contrast between Johan's premise and conclusion and immediately jumped to say it was done better than her. So, no, I fail to see the relevance in saying this regarding how Shiki does things, and I also don't see where you explained anything implying superiority which would lead to that conclusive statement.
No + drop this argument or else 👿
 
Well if you don't read what I said that's not really my problem :
That's clearly not what you said in the section I replied to. You said he isn't a deeply layered psychological character with plenty of nuances which isn't exactly true.
 
For different topic, it's so weird to heard or see peoples called Gilgamesh: "Gilga-chad", "Sigma-mesh", "Gigamesh", etc, because of the submerge of bronze age meme lmao
 
That's clearly not what you said in the section I replied to. You said he isn't a deeply layered psychological character with plenty of nuances which isn't exactly true.
And... I didn't say he wasn't complex, anyways, so that doesn't matter. Actually, I've said :
You seem to be implying that there are plenty of nuances when there is really little amount of them, he's basically a reference to the ubermensch concept, not some kind of deeply layered psychological character in itself.
Which was already my argument from the beginning. Johan's role in Monster isn't to be deeply explored psychologically speaking or whatever that is, or at least not as much as Tarang seems to imply (bolding the part where I said this). My bad if I didn't properly explained what I meant here, but it seemed understandable to me.
 
Which was already my argument from the beginning. Johan's role in Monster isn't to be deeply explored psychologically speaking or whatever that is, or at least not as much as Tarang seems to imply (bolding the part where I said this). My bad if I didn't properly explained what I meant here, but it seemed understandable to me.
Ah ok. Johan's character has a lot of psychological depth and aspects but none of it is explored in great detail so that's a fair take. Most of it is just told to us.
 
Who is Archetype talking to? And if it's base Shiki with MEoDP, then that might make sense since Void Shiki wasn't shown in Melty blood at all.
due to nasu being nasu, everything is vague and only implied. But
1.Ryougi heavily implies archetype is her own kind of person
2.she then says that void is urging her on to kill arucied
3.Archetype refers to her as "will of heaven" and "all encompassing order" implying she is aware of void shiki and is confident on taking her on
etc. There are way more, but you need to ask the older nasu fans
 
due to nasu being nasu, everything is vague and only implied. But
1.Ryougi heavily implies archetype is her own kind of person
2.she then says that void is urging her on to kill arucied
3.Archetype refers to her as "will of heaven" and "all encompassing order" implying she is aware of void shiki and is confident on taking her on
etc. There are way more, but you need to ask the older nasu fans
Archetype cannot take on Void Shiki. She would die. Archetype has an even lower connection to the root than base Shiki. Void Shiki is the root itself. She could do just that if she so willfully wanted to disconnect Archetype from the Root. Every interaction Arc had with Shiki was not against Void. Void only ever appeared in KnK and Fgo(Saber Shiki kinda). Shiki has an archetype as well but as the origin of nothingness.

Arc is probably ignorant or unaware of how powerful Void is and only thinks she could take on it without understanding its capabilities. If Tohno could "kill" Arc despite having an inferior MEoDP to base Shiki, then Void would easily kill Arc. SHe could simply destroy the planet and moon which already makes Arc almost nothing power-wise. Even ORT should be superior to Archetype.
 
Archetype cannot take on Void Shiki. She would die. Archetype has an even lower connection to the root than base Shiki. Void Shiki is the root itself. She could do just that if she so willfully wanted to disconnect Archetype from the Root. Every interaction Arc had with Shiki was not against Void. Void only ever appeared in KnK and Fgo(Saber Shiki kinda). Shiki has an archetype as well but as the origin of nothingness.

Arc is probably ignorant or unaware of how powerful Void is and only thinks she could take on it without understanding its capabilities. If Tohno could "kill" Arc despite having an inferior MEoDP to base Shiki, then Void would easily kill Arc. SHe could simply destroy the planet and moon which already makes Arc almost nothing power-wise. Even ORT should be superior to Archetype
Again, the Archetype>void shiki is an argument used mostly by the older nasu fans who follow tsukihime/Knk/melty blood and other older stuff going on (fate is modern nasuverse), so they should know better then me. unfortunately, it seems they left the wiki. bruh
 
Again, the Archetype>void shiki is an argument used mostly by the older nasu fans who follow tsukihime/Knk/melty blood and other older stuff going on (fate is modern nasuverse), so they should know better then me. unfortunately, it seems they left the wiki. bruh
It doesn't really matter who knows more. The fact remains the same.
An Earth Archetype can't be superior to something that embodies the creation of the whole Nasuverse including that same Earth.
 
The Creators would fit the description of apophasis in a vacuum
Huhhhhhhhhh aye aye aye aye aye holdon for a second do we just throw apophasis around now 💀
Hell, the fact that she literally became the root when she wasn't one with it earlier implies that it's not actually beyond all description
She's not the root tho? If you're an avatar of a higher dimensional being does that mean you're actually higher dimensional even when you're portrayed to be a lower dimensional avatar of that higher dimensional being?
That's not what it is. The reason they lose sense of existence is that Creators are freed from all restrictions from life, death, existence, and even meaning itself. Therefore, witches that reach that realm lose their existence and become one with it.
Okay!!!! That's not apophasis the word shouldn't be thrown around like this, it's getting ridiculous.
not that. There are other arguments and from what i saw, archetype beat void in one of the games
What? She never did **** is blud on
melty blood. in summary, I was told that
1.Archetype/aruceid also has a connection to the root
2.void's control over akasha isn't absolute
3.Archetype straight up has a victory quote on defeating void in melty blood games while void doesn't have one
This is very simplified. The actual explanation is much longer
Void doesn't even exist in melty blood what?

Having a connection to the root means nothing, void has the deepest connection to the root in comparison to everyone in the nasuverse.
I didn't give a specific example. I was giving a general scenario. I literally already explained why the creators would have apophasis in a vacuum. You're missing the "in a vacuum" part, which takes away context like multiple creators, or that people can keep their identities when becoming a creator.
Non of what you said makes them apophatic
Roa didn't reach the indescribable " " He only reached the other root which isn't the indescribable aspect. I think Theoretical already explained the connection of Taoism and the root's nature which is kinda complicated. Nonetheless, nothing really proves the Creators are apophatic. The fact that there could be more than 1 creator already makes it impossible for them to have apophatic theology. There can be only one apophatic being in a verse.
This argument is purely ridiculous by this argument regular "nothingness" is apophatic
 
Being freed from all restrictions isn't enough for apophasis, being freed from meaning isn't enough for apophasis

If you're just a victim to the ineffability paradox there's no way to argue you having apophasis, the positive description that "Creators, are freed from all restrictions and meaning applies to the Creators" therefore the Creators can be described positively via the ineffability paradox hence they are not apophatic because apophasis isn't apophasis without the ineffability thesis which negates the ineffability paradox
 
Huhhhhhhhhh aye aye aye aye aye holdon for a second do we just throw apophasis around now 💀
I said in a vacuum. The context into account would throw that into the trash. I'm just saying that in a vacuum it could work.

She's not the root tho? If you're an avatar of a higher dimensional being does that mean you're actually higher dimensional even when you're portrayed to be a lower dimensional avatar of that higher dimensional being?
Then why are people literally saying that she is the root rather than just some manifestation of it.
Okay!!!! That's not apophasis the word shouldn't be thrown around like this, it's getting ridiculous.
Is it because it's not stated that even describing them doesn't work?
 
Idrc if you think they can't be compared together. I found both pretty much boring and I snoozed on both while reading them hence they are both snoozefest material.
That's kind of on you. Don't group together DKD and Umineko. Like, if you want to keep any credibility at all don't do it. DKD is usually considered to be really bad. Same can't be said for Umineko. Best advice I can give you is to check Umineko out again and be patient with it
 
That's kind of on you. Don't group together DKD and Umineko. Like, if you want to keep any credibility at all don't do it. DKD is usually considered to be really bad. Same can't be said for Umineko. Best advice I can give you is to check Umineko out again and be patient with it
Admittedly, I do have a bad habit of being very impatient when it comes to animanga or LN with very slow starts. That's one of the reasons I can never get past episode 15 of One Piece. Umineko was very weird for me from the start and tbh, I started the VN at a very wrong time so I had no patience on it. I would give it a try later one day. DkD on the other hand is just irredeemable for me. No amount of convincing would ever allow me to complete it.
 
Admittedly, I do have a bad habit of being very impatient when it comes to animanga or LN with very slow starts. That's one of the reasons I can never get past episode 15 of One Piece. Umineko was very weird for me from the start and tbh, I started the VN at a very wrong time so I had no patience on it. I would give it a try later one day. DkD on the other hand is just irredeemable for me. No amount of convincing would ever allow me to complete it.
Eh, One Piece is a different brand of stupid. It's a great story, but it's so god damn long that I don't blame anyone for dropping it. Umineko imo definitely does need patience and an open mind cause going in expecting some masterpiece will definitely leave you disappointed with how long it takes to get truly interesting for some viewers.

And yeah, your DKD take is pretty accurate. Mid for the first 12 volumes and comedically bad for its last one
 
Wait then how exactly does she scale to the same tier as the Root?

And why would she also scale to its apophasis?
She's connected to something apophatic, it's not a contradiction to something Apopathic, if she was Apopathic it would be a contradiction.


Then why?
I just explained the ineffability paradox issues and how not having the ineffability thesis means you're not apophatic.

Typically just being said to be indescribable is nowhere near enough to be Apopathic or beyond Language and similar statements.
 
In my opinion, these are two different things. Things that have come from the Root are independent in their essence and exist, if I may say so, separately from it and are not connected with it in any way other than origin. At the same time, Shiki is literally the Root because of her origin (Emptiness), thus she exists as a Root, and as an independent creation.
 
I remembered Shiki saying something like "I'm connected to the root as I'm a part of the Root as I'm the root"
 
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