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And that poetic phrase isn't even in the remake of these databooks as the OP said, so it's pretty questionable.
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Dragon Ball: Finite Universe
- Thread starter Nostredam
- Start date
- Status
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Simply providing a page link is not enough to convince me, but if you could link a reconstructed panel that supports your main argument, it would be more helpful.
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That's up to the OP, not me. I'm just saying that there are other arguments for eliminating these statements besides the "Poetic" thing. As I said, I'm neutral, I just want to make sure people don't forget those details.
Like this user above who didn't notice either.
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So let me understand we are assuming that
Dragon ball doesn’t have High 3-A
Based on
Poetic Language Assumptions that don‘t remain consistent with each description
Broly‘s feat of infinity/4 = not infinity?
and old daizenshuu scans that don’t make it into the Chozen
We also we need solid proof of hyperbole which we don’t have.
Dragon ball doesn’t have High 3-A
Based on
Poetic Language Assumptions that don‘t remain consistent with each description
Broly‘s feat of infinity/4 = not infinity?
and old daizenshuu scans that don’t make it into the Chozen
We also we need solid proof of hyperbole which we don’t have.
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How is it up to the OP if it is the other person's argument? I am confused.
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What do you mean someone else's argument? What I quoted was an argument the OP used. He dismissed the statement for two reasons as I understand it, because he thought it was "poetic" and because he didn't make it into the Chozenshu which appears to be a remake of these databooks. I just quoted what he said in the OP, as people don't seem to have talked about that argument.
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His opinion was not aligned with the notion of poetics. However, it is worth noting that the author of the sentence in question explicitly described it as poetic, indicating a significant divergence of perspective.
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Can someone please summarize the purpose of this discussion?
Is this in regards to the previously mentioned Toei cosmology merge?
Is this in regards to the previously mentioned Toei cosmology merge?
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I don't understand anything you are saying. I'm not the OP, and I put a "think" and "from what I understand" because the OP isn't here right now to answer and I won't answer for him because I don't know what he thinks.
I just gave my general opinion above and said that people are forgetting the other argument the OP made for this "poetic" statement, which is that it didn't make the Chozenshu.
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The summary is fairly in the OP, if you are asking for an opposition one:
No one really provided one, yet.
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Universes in DB are currently accepted as High 3-A in both canon and toei, this is trying to downgrade this back to 3-A
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Pretty much the OP
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In question about the bad translation, we already have a very accurate translation, nothing has been translated wrong, in fact the @Executor_N0 helped with that, Op is using the context which is a hyperbole just because someone from twitter mentioned, basically the argument here is nothing with nothing and in order to say that the translations are incorrect, the same counter arguments were inserted in the update topic for the universe infinity, we've had these same debates before.
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Wasn't Broly upgraded to High 3-A because he destroyed a sector of the universe, which is still considered Infinite?
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Exactly that, according to him there was a story retold, and in the same databook it mentions that galaxies are infinite, we have several quotes stating that they are infinite, not just the space, as well as quotes of having an infinite extension.
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No, it was updated because it had several quotes that he could destroy the universe, Op is confused about that, when it came time to update to High 3-A, people left the same thing when I I updated it to 3-B and it was totally different.
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We've had this debate before,there are not only 28 planets in the universe, but rather a number of people with intelligence. Zamasu mentions that there are millions of planets scattered across the universe. Zamasu mentions that there are also numerous planets. On the official website of DB mentions that Moro ate countless worlds, Moro is quoted for the second time stating that he ate countless planets
Please don't disagree just for the sake of disagreeing, that's wrong.
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Drawing from the infinite universe for cosmology, all because it's a hyperbole and taking things from another person's opinion that poetry, basically we had this debate in the infinite universe, it was agreed that this is not hyperbole or poetry, as guides are not used like that, Op is suggesting the translation is wrong, @Executor_N0 mentioned that the translations are correct, but the way the person interprets the translation and uses it as a hyperbole is wrong, he said this when talking about the translation.
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Having finite number of planets in an infinite universe is itself dubious. This itself rejects the notion of infinite universe since the arguments of infinite universes come from secondary canons while primary canon limits the amount celestial bodies to a finite number.
Also countless doesn't mean infinite.
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.
I also decide to use Weblio to see what it say for 無限/mugen and it does show in the last section of of semantic that the term can describe something that its also seemingly (meaning its not necessarely true) endless, so it not correct to say that 無限 its strictly meant for literal descriptions, just like how 果てしない its not just limited to exaggerated descriptions.
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I never said that countless planets are infinite, read my comment well, bro, having a finite number of planets does not refute the size of the Universe, since it is because of the infinite galaxies, Limitless galaxies, and infinite space, infinite darkness, and be quoted an infinite extent. I don't know why you are mentioning something about intelligent life on planets, when every time it is mentioned it is immediately refuted.
In short: you just disagree for the sake of disagreeing.
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FINITE AMOUNT OF PLANETS THAT CONTAIN LIFE. This does not debunk an infinite universe.
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In general there are finite planets like the ones @LuffyRuffy46307 quoted in his reply.
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Anyone wanna send a detailed rebuttal to his OP and let staff handle?
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@LephyrTheRevanchist it might be worth moving this to staff discussion. We already have 160 comments and most of them aren't even really discussion. Luffy and Godofice can continue to make their points of course
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- Thread starter
- #149
I'll reply to some comments that I felt the necessity to.
Also, I'm not using Koyama do discredit High 3-A Broly; I'm using that one quote to show that people should stop using him as a source to w--- Dragon Ball as he belives that Broly can't destroy a High 3-A structure. Overall Koyama is still not reliable for power scaling purposes.
Also, it indeed say infinitely expanding; not on the right middle of the Cover Art were it freatures Frieza, but in the left middle freaturing Grand Elder Guru:
Overall that section is simply a poetic description of space as it being infinitely expanding (stretching to galaxies and millions of light years). I agree that if we take the "infinite space" part separately, it would be valid to argue for an infinite universe, but that would require to:
1. Ignore the full context on Guru's part.
2. Ignore the page being not canon.
3. Ignore the Inconsistencies section on post #1.
For Weblio, the 1st and 2nd section also refer to something seemingly endless: "a tediously long conversation", "continuing forever or indefinitely"... All of them are figurative terms.
For Collins, it is the exact opposite of what you're saying. The application of that word is in figurative sentences like:
For Linguee is even more explicit, it's just a matter of reading all the examples given to realize that none of them are literal.
While is true that Mugen can be used to both something seemingly endless and literally endless, Hateshinai can only be used to the seemingly one. All of the three dictionaries explain that. If the word is not used anywhere in literal wording, you can't just say that "its not just limited to exaggerated descriptions" without proof.
That logic does not fit here at all. I even explained that in post #4. If people will rely on the argument of "infinity can have edge in fiction" while the context of the scene/chapter (Bulma's radar scanning the Universe 7) have nothing to support that notion, then this will be simply turn in a lack of burden of proof and pretty much people throwing excuses around, instead of directly refuting the central point.
That means that the context is seemingly endless, that is, coherent with the sentences. At best, this can be used to prove that the universe is "big" (vaguely, though), but not infinite.
Sorry, but I don't see how a "infinitely expanding universe" acts as a supporting evidence for a High 3-A ranting.
Here, you are talking about the part that I mention the Cover Art of D4 not being in Chozenshu, right? In that case, I don't need to show scans for that. I can't show a scan of something that does not exist.
If someone thinks that the Cover Art is canon because it is considered relevant enough to appear again in Chozenshu, then that someone simply has to show a scan of it being in Chozenshu. That's it.
Overall, there's no actual argument in the thread so far that rebuts the entire OP. I'm not gonna reply every user who disagree (without them backing up), as it would be unnecessary.
Shmeatywerbenmanjenson
Actually, if you read carefully, Koyama says "infinite size of the macrocosm". He's not talking about destroying the totality of the Macrocosm directly (set of finite space-time continuums/2-C), but the infinite size of its structure (High 3-A). Of course, I myself disagree with 2-C Macrocosm, but I wanted to clarify that.
Also, I'm not using Koyama do discredit High 3-A Broly; I'm using that one quote to show that people should stop using him as a source to w--- Dragon Ball as he belives that Broly can't destroy a High 3-A structure. Overall Koyama is still not reliable for power scaling purposes.
Firestorm808
No. The purpose of this thread is to explain how almost all the quotes of the universe being infinite are wrong. You can see that I've put Guides, GT, Super Anime and Super Manga on the thread despite incongruences of each continuity.
TiltedFN
I put them on the OP. About the second part in bold, I can only assume that you didn't understand most of the arguments in general.
Herms is the very translator of the Daizenshuu 4 and a reliable source about translations regarding Dragon Ball. It's not merely his opinion, is an objective answer were he says it is poetic, as is what the text give him to interpret.
Also, it indeed say infinitely expanding; not on the right middle of the Cover Art were it freatures Frieza, but in the left middle freaturing Grand Elder Guru:
Overall that section is simply a poetic description of space as it being infinitely expanding (stretching to galaxies and millions of light years). I agree that if we take the "infinite space" part separately, it would be valid to argue for an infinite universe, but that would require to:
1. Ignore the full context on Guru's part.
2. Ignore the page being not canon.
3. Ignore the Inconsistencies section on post #1.
It can't be used literally, really. The fact that the definition means "endless" is not important when you see the context of the word, and even in Linguee there is a full wall-text of examples and none of them are literal. However, I'll reply that in detail now:
Stefano4444
Hateshinai being a synonyms for other words that mean infinite is not a valid reasoning, considering that it simply refers to the etimology of them as they use the same word (infinite/endless/etc) but in different situations.
For Weblio, the 1st and 2nd section also refer to something seemingly endless: "a tediously long conversation", "continuing forever or indefinitely"... All of them are figurative terms.
For Collins, it is the exact opposite of what you're saying. The application of that word is in figurative sentences like:
For Linguee is even more explicit, it's just a matter of reading all the examples given to realize that none of them are literal.
While is true that Mugen can be used to both something seemingly endless and literally endless, Hateshinai can only be used to the seemingly one. All of the three dictionaries explain that. If the word is not used anywhere in literal wording, you can't just say that "its not just limited to exaggerated descriptions" without proof.
You can't head off to "infinite galaxies" in the first place, unless we assume Bulma's spaceship has Infinite Speed.
Reiner
If there's no (valid) statement(s) about it being infinite, then it's finite. That's how it works. And no, there are no "direct statements" barring Herms' translation of Chozenshu 4. I will again say that the thread does not suggest that the quotes are mistranslated, only misinterpreted.
That logic does not fit here at all. I even explained that in post #4. If people will rely on the argument of "infinity can have edge in fiction" while the context of the scene/chapter (Bulma's radar scanning the Universe 7) have nothing to support that notion, then this will be simply turn in a lack of burden of proof and pretty much people throwing excuses around, instead of directly refuting the central point.
ImmortalDread
While Hateshinai is linked to eternal, it is more accurate to assume that, in those two scans, it is endless. After all, they were translated in this wiki with that word:
That means that the context is seemingly endless, that is, coherent with the sentences. At best, this can be used to prove that the universe is "big" (vaguely, though), but not infinite.
Sorry, but I don't see how a "infinitely expanding universe" acts as a supporting evidence for a High 3-A ranting.
Here, you are talking about the part that I mention the Cover Art of D4 not being in Chozenshu, right? In that case, I don't need to show scans for that. I can't show a scan of something that does not exist.
If someone thinks that the Cover Art is canon because it is considered relevant enough to appear again in Chozenshu, then that someone simply has to show a scan of it being in Chozenshu. That's it.
Conclusions
Overall, there's no actual argument in the thread so far that rebuts the entire OP. I'm not gonna reply every user who disagree (without them backing up), as it would be unnecessary.
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I was not really trying argue against the premise as I already agreed with it.
It simply my thoughts. As for your last comment, you can simply show that something does not exist by simply proving if the chapter, the place, the time that is being there, don't exist.
I did not read the remade one, and you linked vaguely an article page talking about it. I can't check if it is true or not.
It simply my thoughts. As for your last comment, you can simply show that something does not exist by simply proving if the chapter, the place, the time that is being there, don't exist.
I did not read the remade one, and you linked vaguely an article page talking about it. I can't check if it is true or not.
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- Thread starter
- #151
I know that you agree, I was just pointing some parts, like the "eternal" word not fitting in the context. The link that I put is simply an explanation of what the Chozenshu is (a remake of Daizenshuu).
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Seems fine then. I agree.
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Anyway, I disagree with saying that such quotes about the Universe being infinite is hyperbole or any poetry, first that Akira toriyama never uses hyperbole and poetry to describe the size of the Universe, it's always legitimate his quotes, he quotes that himself, if it was a hyperbole it would not be repeated several times throughout the series, I even understand that some people think that DB works with hyperboles, but that is totally wrong, Akira toriyama even mentions that he does not waste his time with useless things, if something related to his Universe, then it is indeed true, I leave you with the quotes from the creator.
Toriyama: Anyway, I don't waste a lot of time chatting about useless things. As a rule, you can understand content to some extent only with images, and words are nothing more than a supplement to them. I had it drilled into me by my first editor I guess you could say…. If you're going to go out and say something, then do something that further strengthens the characterization, is what I mean.
Toriyama: Anyway, I don't waste a lot of time chatting about useless things. As a rule, you can understand content to some extent only with images, and words are nothing more than a supplement to them. I had it drilled into me by my first editor I guess you could say…. If you're going to go out and say something, then do something that further strengthens the characterization, is what I mean.
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The argument is about the meaning of the words used themselves in the japanese laungage, poetry has little to do with most of the OP's points, also akira was talking about characterizarion there, as he clarifies in the end, also he is talking about his way pf writing the manga, not the guides, that phrase means nothing to this thread
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thats true, but finite multiplers can’t reach infinity unless stated otherwise.
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- Thread starter
- #156
I was going to reply LuffyRuffy46307, but omegabronic already did that for me.
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These are some good poetic usage of the word "infinite" in DB.
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Literally useless because anyone with a brain knows Piccolo didn't have Infinite power. Comparing one person's use of the word to describe their power to the use regarding the universe is different when the statements are coming from a different source instead of someone as arrogant as Piccolo.
These are some good poetic usage of the word "infinite" in DB.
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