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i don't think its an assumption
i think its common sense
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Yogurt NEP changes, possible removal (Instant Death)
- Thread starter SweetDao
- Start date
i think its common sense
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- #42
I mean, I highly doubt that being omnipresent even in a void would grant NEP. Which aspect would it even be?
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i don't think everything12 is saying that being omnipresent in a void grants NEP
im pretty sure he is saying that the omnipresence encompasses the nonexistent places in the verse
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Yeah but... Being described as a "void" or "empty darkness" isn't enough on itself, but even if it was, which aspect would it even be?
Georredannea15
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This... I'm not sure how it can be NEP. Why we assume that he includes places that "non-existence"? There is also no explation about aspect types.
And they are "void", not places of "non-existence". So... I'm not sure if it's healthy to keep this NEP with this little foundation and no basis
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How is it figure of speech exactly? When Aoi was listening to Sion explain to Van why he should give his Philosopher’s Stone to Yogiri and Aoi, one of the few characters in the verse, who was able to grasp Yogiri’s true form, didn’t bother to correct Sion’s statement.
Also if you want to be technical. Darkness(闇, 暗黒) is repeatedly used in the nothingness where UEG got sent to. They are interchangeable in the same chapter.
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But what about nothingness(無)? To prove they are interchangeable, the “place” is repeatedly called as nothingness or nothing.
So the official translators didn’t really do anything beyond jurisdiction when darkness and nothingness is synonymous in this case.
—Not even pointing out how light and dark is subjective in the Sea of Darkness where Gods experience death. Rilna(who Yogiri killed) was nowhere in the Sea of Darkness.
So the “darkness” in the nothingness where UEG got sent to isn’t literal darkness since darkness(闇) is already subjective in a lesser realm. Oh here’s the raw kanji too in case you think otherwise.
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I just woke up, my bad if I took time to answer.
Anyway. I agree that Aoi is definitely more informed than most characters in the series. However, I highly doubt she understands how it works beyond what she sees thanks to her fate vision. Like, Yogiri is the end destination of fate, no matter what you are or who you are, there is nothing beyond him because he is the end.
Also, are you sure it was Sion who said the "eternity of nothingness" ? Re-reading the text, it feels like Aoi is the first to talk, then Sion adds her own two cents on it. Well, it's not that important anyway. No matter who said the quote, there was no need to correct it since, in the end, it means the same thing. Yogiri can kill you, and you'll be dead forever.
Oh yeah, sure. I never denied that. To be fair, I didn't check the raw of that chapter, but I'm sure there is a lot of "darkness" and "nothing/nothingness/empty/emptiness" inside.
I wouldn't say "this place" was called nothingness or nothing. It's just that there is nothing here. It's an empty darkness.
You mean in UEG's case? Yeah, sure, I don't mind that. For Aoi's case, however, that's completely different. They talk about the instant death cheat of Yogiri, "sinking into eternal darkness" is just dying.
I...don't see the point?
I mean, yeah, they aren't literal darkness, it's just her dream. It was already discussed before. Either it's literally darkness or just of her own making. The narrative implies the latter one.
Look, I get what you're trying to do. I don't mind Yogiri keeping some sort of NEP, but it needs more than just this to be viable.
Yogiri isn't the "embodiment of nothingness" so the easiest way to prove it turns moot.
UEG wasn't absorbed by "Yogiri's true form" despite what people tend to claim. This too turns moot.
Yogiri is omnipresent, that's true, but I don't know which aspect would it give even if he encompasses nonexistent place.
Also, I suppose I'll put your vote into rewording?
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No character in the verse truly understands how Yogiri’s true form works. Even the Ultimate God in Vol 15 only knows some new detail but even he/she/they don’t know or rather, they don’t want to know further.
It’s been a while since I read it. It would be more credible if Aoi was the one who said it. Yes, Yogiri can kill you and you’ll be dead forever however the statement supports what happened to UEG before.
It’s not merely an empty darkness with just nothing there. If that was the case then it would be similar to the World of Void in DBS, where it’s an empty void where structures can be made, but as we can clearly see in the novel. Nothing is allowed to exist. Kyomu/虚無 is the exact kanji for nothingness. Mu/無 does refer to nothingness but it can be interpreted into zero/naught or null.
It’s not different. Aoi’s statement depicts what happened to UEG. UEG got sentenced to an eternity of nothingness or rather melted into it.
The point is, the place where UEG got sent to isn’t a standard realm of darkness. Since even a lesser realm of darkness, Sea of Darkness, has light and dark merely being subjective. It is lesser since those who died got revived by the Great Sage’s reset even Malnarilna. Rilna stayed dead because she was killed by Yogiri and was nowhere in the Sea of Darkness. Malna, who was killed by Miranda and was sent to the Sea of Darkness, is alive.
It’s not her own making though, it’s not her dream. If it’s her own dream then she can control whatever that’s going on just as like the Great Sage to the Celestial Foundation. Kouryu’s statement serves as a metaphor or an analogy for the situation that UEG is in. So yeah no, the narrative doesn’t imply latter one.
Yeah but iirc regular wiki members votes aren’t officially counted for a crt’s approval.
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Before I answer the rest, do you have an idea of how to phrase the rewording? Because frankly, I have no clue. Also yeah, their vote don't matter much, but it's nice to know it was debated and not just disagreed/agreed on a whim, so supporters coming is a need. At least that's how I see it.
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I agree, hence why I feel like Aoi knowing "what happens when Yogiri sentence someone to death" seems too much. Frankly, if you read the paragraph/the scene, it feels inclined to just be another way to say "Yeah, you die, forever".
I see the line of reasoning. I disagree with it personally.
That's true, but it doesn't change anything. What UEG is seeing is a hallucination. It's a "last glimmer of life", the transition between life and death. Life is UEG, death is the darkness/nothingness surrounding her. She died by getting erased/vanishing into the darkness.
Aoi statement is in volume 8, UEG death is in Volume 11. Also, she just got erased of the Ultimate Ensemble World, so "eternity of nothingness" is really just death/cessation of existence. That's what we learn in Volume 15.
Yeah, it isn't a standard realm of darkness. It's a dream she's seeing, a hallucination, whatever you want.
Moreover, I don't see why it's important whether UEG got sent somewhere weird or not. Yogiri killed a number of gods in the story, and none of them beside UEG were subjected to this "weird void filled with darkness". Not only is UEG the only exception, the exception itself is explained by her "being inside a dream only she is seeing".
On the top of my head, Yogiri killed :
- Rilna
- UEG (Exception)
- Twelve unamed Gods
- A couple of Dark Gods
- A V-Road God
Yet, the only moment where something special happens is with UEG which was explained as being merely a dream she is seeing? I don't understand why the position of "Yes, UEG was in a dream and the whole scene is a metaphor of her death" is that stretched up. At least that's my view on it.
Right, I mixed stuff together. It's not her dream. She is the only one seeing it. Metaphor or not, I still don't see the point. While I agree we can't be sure Kouryu understand completely what happens, after all he prefaced it himself that everything he'll say might be nonsense, the simple fact that UEG got "BFRed" into "Yogiri's true form" is problematic for his omnipresent state. Either he's everywhere or in one place. Either what happen to UEG was literal or metaphorical. The fact that the V-Road God disappeared too without getting subjected to an "empty void" when he tried to attack Yogiri gives us more things to work with. If you transform the scene of UEG into a scene where her existence got erased, everything makes a lot more sense, frankly.
Just so I'm sure of your point of view. Here's the chain of event as you see them :
=> UEG is ready to kill Yogiri after breaking Luu's barrier
=> Yogiri feels threaten and his power activate
=> UEG's existence (and not physical vessel) is somehow BFRed by Yogiri to a strange empty void (Supposedly Yogiri's true form, if that's what you think?)
=> Stuff happens
=> Her existence melt/vanish into the darkness
=> UEG's physical vessel fall down, she ded.
Am I right?
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Exactly why would it seem too much? Aoi was one of the characters that was able to analyze Yogiri and came to know he is The End when Alexia, one of the higher Gods(higher existence than the Aoi), herself failed to investigate to reach the same result. In case you want to be technical, analyze and investigate are synonymous.
Kouryuu wasn’t even sure when he said the “transition between life and death” He even said a space-time singularity, or a flashback. Hence why Kouryuu said “Anyway, interpret it as you like.” However, hallucination isn’t one of the factors of the situation UEG is in. Kouryu never said that the whole thing is a hallucination nor did he say such thing with confidence.
Yes, death is the darkness/nothingness surrounding her. This true erasure is more severe than the eternal darkness that Gods would go to(Sea of Darkness) as stated by the narrator when Miranda, the one who killed Malna, encountered Yogiri and grasped his existence. It’s more reasonable to conclude that the eternal darkness is the Sea of Darkness rather than the nothingness of UEG since Miranda’s encounter was in Vol 7 and SOD was in Vol 8 and UEG’s death is in Vol 11.
Uh no? Aoi’s statement is in Vol 12. It’s in Vol 12 Ch 7 - “Why Should I Have to Give Them to Some Guy I Don’t Even Know?” It’s literally the volume right after UEG’s death hence why UEG was heavily referenced to in Vol 12.
Because UEG was the only God at the time that was able to fully construct herself after the total erasure of herself. Once from the Holy Sword and once from Toichirou. Before facing Luu and Yogiri, she faced an unknown boy with the power of Instant Death and sensing harm/danger. Hence why an explanation of her death is perfectly warranted to be written. Again, it’s not a dream.
It isn’t stretched up. Her existence is in that place and “you can’t destroy the dream itself” is used as a metaphor. There are more evidences saying that it isn’t UEG’s dream than to say it is. I already pointed them out earlier.
Explain why is it problematic? BFR means removing an opponent from the battlefield to a location where the battle cannot continue. Omnipresence means existing in all locations simultaneously, all of space and time. I’m just laying out the definitions of the terms.
If Yogiri’s true form is omnipresent(which it is), then there is no location where Yogiri TF is not present. Any location you could think of(in the series) already includes the presence of Yogiri TF.
Therefore, being BFR’d “into” Yogiri’s true form does not remove someone from the battlefield in the traditional sense, because there is no distinct “into” in the context of omnipresence. Every place, including the battlefield, is part of Yogiri’s form. Omnipresence means being present everywhere, so UEG remains within Yogiri's presence regardless of any BFR attempt. Hence, the battlefield and the new location(this example, the eternal nothingness) after BFR are both within Yogiri’s omnipresent existence.
So, the action of BFR’ing UEG into Yogiri’s true form is not a contradiction to the omnipresence of Yogiri’s true form. It is consistent with the nature of omnipresence, which implies that Yogiri is present in every possible location, including wherever UEG is removed to.
The unnamed V-Road God didn’t have any background nor information in chapters beforehand. Meanwhile, UEG was an antagonist that was built up for three volumes(Vol 9, 10, 11). Yeah no. One of Kouryu’s explanation to UEG’s death was the transition from life to death and not much time had passed in UEG’s experience.
Before you say “not much time” can refer to seconds. No. It is instant as stated by Kouryu.
“Of course, I can’t go somewhere weird like this myself, so I just projected a shadow of myself here for this brief instant.”
No. I don’t see the nothingness that UEG got sent to, is Yogiri’s true form. Rather I see it as a place where Yogiri’s true form is present. There may be multiples of “nothingness” like these as indicated by Mitsuki’s experience. In UEG’s case, the nothingness doesn’t allow anything to exist to the point that even UEG herself disappeared in it. Mitsuki’s case, he couldn’t die but nothing he did(using his nigh-omniscience to gather information, attacking Kouryu, and so on) worked. Or another explanation is that it could be just a single nothingness but Yogiri has complete control over it so he has authority to who dies/erased/melted and who lives as a disembodied consciousness.
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I feel threatened...
Anyway. Yes, the fact that Aoi is one of the character that managed us to get insights on Yogiri's true nature or intrinsic qualities is a fact, I have no problem with that. The main problem I have is why Aoi, someone less knowledgeable than higher ranking gods, while also being less knowledgeable than the Ultimate God, would know exactly how it works? I know, some gods don't know about Yogiri and some gods don't necessarily bother knowing about it.
You use Alexia as an example. She, overall, should be more knowledgeable than Aoi. She may not have a stronger connection to fate than Aoi, but since she's a god, she should be nigh-omniscient, more or less. Yet, she couldn't get anything. You're telling me that just because Aoi can see Fate, she understood exactly what happens after someone die by Yogiri's power? I don't have qualms saying Fate do grant a deeper insight, but Aoi ultimately still didn't understand clearly what was in front of her.
The Ultimate God refers to Yogiri's power as a "removal" from the Ultimate Ensemble World. If I were to believe either Aoi or UG, I would go with UG honestly.
I know, you're probably thinking that both characters statements aren't mutually exclusive. I have no problem with this if you assume that what Aoi said was an incomplete version of what UG said. In short words, that when Yogiri want you dead, your existence gets erased from the cosmology.
Yes, Kouryuu was sure of nothing during this exchange, he state this beforehand. Yet, he clearly emphasized two times regarding the dream aspect. Sure, he said it was "something like" and not "it is absolutely 100% a dream". Ok. That still defines the place she was in as something unreal and ephemeral, like a dream.
Okay, I'm glad we agree with the fact of the darkness/nothingness around her being death.
There seems to be a miscommunication here. Or maybe I didn't explain myself good enough, my bad. I'm not saying that the "Sea of Darkness" that gods go to is "the same place" UEG got into. No matter if our interpretation diverges, we agree on those facts.
Also, yes, Yogiri erase the existence of stuff. It's in this sense that it's a "total erasure", it not merely deleting the physical vessel, the consciousness or the mind. Killing a God (like Malna) is just temporary, since after some times they would just come back. For UEG it's even worse since she can come back immediately.
Overall, I think we agree on this part.
Yeah... I'm dumb. Keeping multiple tabs open to refresh my mind certainly doesn't help. My bad on that.
I mean, we have to be clear here. Are you saying that the Holy Sword/Rick and Touichirou did a similar "total erasure" as Yogiri would? Clearly not. When Miranda talked about Total Erasure, it would be something different that what those two instances did. Are you saying that the "total erasure" mentioned for Yogiri's case is something that everyone in the sea can do?
Also, is there a definite explanation of what a "total erasure" even entail? Sure, UEG got erased by Touichirou. She "ceased to exist for a time". Furthermore, UEG also erased Touichirou, but even then, she didn't completely "erased him" since he would be able to come back, probably. Even UEG acknowledge that death is just another state of being that Gods just enter and eventually recover from. You'll have to define "total erasure" here, because it's vague.
I mean, let's agree to disagree, in any case this isn't the most important talk to have in the current CRT.
Yes, I agree with those two terms.
Yes, I agree once again.
So, therefore you clearly put a distinction between "Yogiri TF being omnipresent" and the "Eternal nothingness" then, right? Those two things, while maybe related, are clearly not the same entity?
I suppose, since you stated this two times, that I understood correctly your intent then. If not, please do enlighten me.
Just to clarify, I'm not saying that "BFRing someone" is problematic for the omnipresence of Yogiri. I'm saying that people seems to assume that "The void UEG was in IS Yogiri true form". If I understood correctly what you just said, then the problem isn't here, since it wouldn't be Yogiri true form, but merely a place where the omnipresence of Yogiri TF encompass.
So you're saying that the whole "UEG get killed in such a way" is because the author didn't want it to end with just "Die" => "She ded"? Yeah, sure, I totally agree with this. What about the rest, though? (Malna)Rilna was also a pretty important antagonist, not necessarily as important as UEG (debatable) but she died just like this. There was nothing special or a "BFR", she dropped dead, and it was finished. You could probably dismiss the other unnamed God in the same manner as the V-Road God, but for the two dark gods, to some extent, they were also somewhat important to the plot. None of them had to go through this "empty void/Nothingness".
In case there is some issue, MalnaRilna's profile states they have the same NEP/Regen as UEG.
I mean, it's stated two times that "practically not time passed" so yeah sure, I have no problem with this.
So, we agree that it isn't Yogiri's true form, then?
Also, I agree. Since he's omnipresent, this is also a place where he should be, I don't mind this.
If so, what would even give him NEP?
He isn't an embodiment of nothingness, his true form didn't "absorbed" UEG in his darkness, and he's omnipresent in the cosmology but that's not enough for NEP. What justification is there for NEP anymore?
I suppose it could be replaced with BFR + EE for his true form/Avatar? Like IDK : Existence Erasure (Can Bfr you into a void where nothing can exist until you get erased completely)?
I know Yogiri already has both the BFR and EE ability, but well, maybe we can add this scene to the justification?
Moreover, is the fact Mitsuki couldn't use anything a consequence of being cut off reality or an intrinsic quality of the void? Since Kouryu could come in it, I suppose it would be more likely the former? I'll like to hear your opinion on it.
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I apologize if I may have misunderstood you while writing, I just woke up, so I'm still a bit dizzy, but I'm glad you keep debating this, I feel like it's important.
If the novel I've written is too much, we can just focus on the last point. Since what is important is the NEP.
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To summarize as best as I can :
Here's Yogiri's profile with all the NEP justification (In "The End" tabber)
The OP I made was to remove the first justification :
" Embodies and represents the nonexistence from which all of existence and nonexistence comes back to at their ends/deaths"
Since it was a mistranslation. That much seemed to have been accepted by everybody.
Then, some people started to brought up the fact that UEG got "absorbed" by the "darkness of Yogiri's true form". You can read the scene here.
Ensued a debate where the opposing side stated that it was indeed Yogiri's true form, while I asserted it wasn't.
It continued for a bit, but I think me and Kerwin0831 (which was the one to debate the most about that issue) seemed to share views on the fact that the "nothingness" UEG was sent to wasn't Yogiri's true form but that his true form was merely present in it (since he's omnipresent).
Although he didn't respond yet, so maybe I misinterpreted his views, although it feels unlikely.
At this point, just like I summarize above, Yogiri isn't the embodiment of nothingness, his true form didn't "absorbed" UEG, but he's omnipresent in the cosmology which would also mean he's present in the "nothingness" UEG was sent in.
Everything12 pointed out this :
Which is fine, but I don't think it gives NEP on its own. Since, even if it does, which aspect would it even be?
So yeah, that's the summary, I think.
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Seems fine.
