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¯\(ツ)/¯Why was it even considered as infinite in the first place?
Agree FRA
Considering I fully expected this to be already at page 5 by the time I could comeback, this is completely tame. It isn't necessary (for now).@LephyrTheRevanchist it might be worth moving this to staff discussion. We already have 160 comments and most of them aren't even really discussion. Luffy and Godofice can continue to make their points of course
A shit ton of infinite statements that might not actually mean infiniteWhy was it even considered as infinite in the first place?
No, this is the last thing to worry about, it's about inconsistencies.A shit ton of infinite statements that might not actually mean infinite
My badNo, this is the last thing to worry about, it's about inconsistencies.
Endless denial, hyperbole, and poetry, that's all.What's the latest status
Most agreeing with the topic.What's the latest status
Endless denial, hyperbole, and poetry, that's all.
Ahem, we are waiting for @Executor_N0, after that we will give our opinion, maybe it may take a while.and of course the moment I give props, someone gotta sour it
This is such a blatantly incorrect summary, I'm tempted to just delete it.
The actual summary: The counterarguments have lacked any sort of organization, are all over the place, some don't even address the proper problems as raised by the OP, which still proposes a reasonable take on the whole thing: While the translations may be correct, the portrayal overall is inconsistent, which coupled with the fact that the wordage used is more in support of hyperbolic descriptions, suggest they aren't meant to be taken literally.
Then why respond to seemingly every small bit on top of taking jabs at the opposition? Simply don't comment until you have an actual meaningful thing to say. You're just wasting time.Ahem, we are waiting for @Executor_N0, after that we will give our opinion, maybe it may take a while.
i guess what he tried to say isLiterally useless because anyone with a brain knows Piccolo didn't have Infinite power. Comparing one person's use of the word to describe their power to the use regarding the universe is different when the statements are coming from a different source instead of someone as arrogant as Piccolo.
It's not "literally useless" because the point made here was not that King Piccolo had infinite power but that the term "infinite" was used in a nonliteral senseLiterally useless because anyone with a brain knows Piccolo didn't have Infinite power. Comparing one person's use of the word to describe their power to the use regarding the universe is different when the statements are coming from a different source instead of someone as arrogant as Piccolo.
Off from the very start and by your sources, your argument has a glaring contradiction. In real life, we refer to Earth as being at the center of the Universe due to the observable universe being the region of space that is visible to us. Earth is our point of referenceThe only "rebuttal" people use for this claim is that Bulma is talking about only the observable universe, and not the supposed space that exists beyond it. This is impossible, as one cannot be at the "edge of a observable universe"; the observer has to be in the middle as the light comes from all directions:
Now, what about the center of the universe? Well, the observable universe has a center, us. We are at the center of the observable universe because the observable universe is just the region of space visible from Earth. And kind of like how the view from a very tall tower is a circle centered on the tower, the piece of space we can see from here is naturally centered here.
Concerning all your translation nitpicks, here's what a native Japanese speaker has to say
Your 'argument' is that since the spaceship made a stop on a planet in the next episode, and the narrator said 'Goku, Trunks and Pan-- is the spaceship heading off to boundless galaxies-- ', then it was hyperbole. This is really dumb, to say the least.
If a car is heading off to the South and makes a stop at whatever location is in that direction, do you think that implies that the southern direction actually doesn't exist or is hyperbole?
Off from the very start and by your sources, your argument has a glaring contradiction. In real life, we refer to Earth as being at the center of the Universe due to the observable universe being the region of space that is visible to us. Earth is our point of reference
But in DB, Earth isn't the point of reference.
You can even make that conclusion yourself, seeing at the first quote you provided has Earth at the edge of the universe, which is impossible since if it were it'd have to be at the center.
In real life we are still exploring and learning about what lies beyond space from Earth as our starting point and our center, in DB the Universe's structure is already fully known, set in stone, alongside Earth's position within it lying at the edge of the observable universe.
Concerning the Universe terminology:
This was just addressed by @SSJGeminiJJ in this well made thread, and approved in this wiki. Read it, it will clear up all of your misconceptions about the DB world's structure.
The proposal of this CRT is to simply separate the Afterlife and Kaioshin Realm from "Universe 7" itself, and verify that in verse, terminologically, they are considered their own places from U7, which would now only refer to the Living World.
So let me get this straight. The translations are accurate, the words and phrases are accurate, it's just that you have a different interpretation of them?Which doesn't adress anything relevant with the OP. The translations are not wrong; the interpretation with certain words is. Your post does not contest the direct mentions of three scans using a word that is figuratively talking about something infinite. In fact, it also doesn't adress the part of said Cover Art having almost no credibility at all.
No, you're wrong. It absolutely can be true. A spaceship can head off to infinite galaxies, without reaching it. If X is an infinite distance away from me, and I start heading towards the direction of X then yes, the phrase 'Pineapple is heading to the infinitely far away X!' is a logical phrase.My secondary argument (you, again, never adress the part that in this same scan the Hateshinai word is being used) is that one cannot take the citation literally as it would be implying that Bulma's spaceship can head off to infinite galaxies. Not just some galaxies, but an infinite number of them. And that cannot be true, because we see that the narration from EP2 is pretty much contradicted with the fact that in EP3 they initially don't get out of an single galaxy.
..Yeah?Which is the exact reason why calling it "observable universe" is wrong, as the context of the scene implies that Earth is on the edge of said "observable" universe; adding the two quotes from OP and it's a straightforward notion.
The OP is covering arguments about how all of them are seperate, and individually infinite. The Living World aka 'the Universe' is what all of the scans in this thread refer to, which is in itself split into an observable infinitely expanding section of light (the Observable Universe), and an actually infinite section of dark (The Unobservable Universe)I fail to see how the thread you linked is relevant here, as the proposal was this:
Yet, the OP is covering arguments about the Universe 7 itself not being infinite in size; it never addresses Afterlife or Kaioshin Realm.
So let me get this straight. The translations are accurate, the words and phrases are accurate, it's just that you have a different interpretation of them?
Your interpretation of the words 'infinite' and 'endless' are different to what the literal meaning of the words are, even though they make perfect sense in their contextualized phrases?
Sorry but, who are you to make to make such a point? This isn't a philosophical thing where it's up to interpretation, if a guidebook that was made for the exact purpose of telling information about something says that 'The Universe is endless' and you have a baseless different interpretation saying that it isn't endless, your argument has no merit.
I speak four languages, I'm well aware that words of grandiose stature can be used figuratively. But just because they can be, doesn't mean they are. Just because some can say 'this endless sea' in a figurative and fashion, doesn't mean that the phrase 'this endless universe' is also figurative, especially when coming out of a guidebook.
I didn't address your cover art point because I didn't find it worth addressing. The Chozenshuu are condensed versions of a plethora of other guidebooks including the Daizenshuu, they're not a reprint for the same pages to appear twice. And you stating that it's reviewed by Akira Toriyama to strengthen that point doesn't make sense, since the same goes for the Daizenshuu.
No, you're wrong. It absolutely can be true. A spaceship can head off to infinite galaxies, without reaching it. If X is an infinite distance away from me, and I start heading towards the direction of X then yes, the phrase 'Pineapple is heading to the infinitely far away X!' is a logical phrase.
And you keep saying that they didn't even get out of a single galaxy. Not that this matters in the grand scheme of things, but what even is your proof of this? I don't recall it being mentioned that they were still in the same galaxy, I only remember it being stated that it had been a week since they flew off. Is this another case of your 'interpretations'?
I mean it came out of your own mouth, 'the context of the scene implies that Earth is on the edge of said "observable" universe". Yep, that's what I'm arguing for. Did you accidentally end up on the same page as me or?
The OP is covering arguments about how all of them are seperate, and individually infinite. The Living World aka 'the Universe' is what all of the scans in this thread refer to, which is in itself split into an observable infinitely expanding section of light (the Observable Universe), and an actually infinite section of dark (The Unobservable Universe)
第7宇宙にある超ドラゴンボールを探す為に超ドラゴンレーダーを完成させたブルマは、探すには宇宙の中心に向かわなくてはならない。そう考えてジャコを強引に呼び出したが、とんでもなく広い宇宙の中心なんかに行ける訳がないと呆れるジャコ。しかしブルマにビビらされたジャコは、何でも知っているズノー様という人物に聞いてみると良いと代案を持ちかける。早速、ズノー様の星に向かうブルマとジャコ。だが、ズノー様との面会は、予約制で、順番が回ってくるのは7年後だという!果たして、二人の面会は叶うのか!?
Bulma, who has completed the Super Dragon Radar to search for the Super Dragon Balls in Universe 7, must head to the center of the universe to find them. Thinking so, he forcibly summons Jaco, but Jaco is amazed that there is no way he can go to the center of the vast universe. However, Jaco, who is terrified by Bulma, offers an alternative, saying that he should ask Mr. Zuno, who knows everything. Bulma and Jaco immediately head for Zuno's star. However, meeting with Mr. Zuno is by appointment only, and it is said that it will be seven years before the turn comes around! Will the meeting between the two be successful!?
You are not understanding the point at all, it is not his interpretation, it is very way the word used is used in japanese language, it means infinite, but it is literal infinite, that is how the word used in japanese is usedSo let me get this straight. The translations are accurate, the words and phrases are accurate, it's just that you have a different interpretation of them?
Your interpretation of the words 'infinite' and 'endless' are different to what the literal meaning of the words are, even though they make perfect sense in their contextualized phrases?
it would when that is the the way the very word used is usedI speak four languages, I'm well aware that words of grandiose stature can be used figuratively. But just because they can be, doesn't mean they are. Just because some can say 'this endless sea' in a figurative and fashion, doesn't mean that the phrase 'this endless universe' is also figurative, especially when coming out of a guidebook.
if it is the "observable" universe then Earth can't be on the edge of it, the center of the observable universe is Earth since thar is thr middle from which we see arroundThe OP is covering arguments about how all of them are seperate, and individually infinite. The Living World aka 'the Universe' is what all of the scans in this thread refer to, which is in itself split into an observable infinitely expanding section of light (the Observable Universe)
If you want to use this argument then you must also not use the infinite galaxies statements, since that would contradict either wayand an actually infinite section of dark (The Unobservable Universe)
The actual summary: The counterarguments have lacked any sort of organization, are all over the place, some don't even address the proper problems as raised by the OP, which still proposes a reasonable take on the whole thing: While the translations may be correct, the portrayal overall is inconsistent, which coupled with the fact that the wordage used is more in support of hyperbolic descriptions, suggest they aren't meant to be taken literally.
Even the narrator panel uses the word "infinite". i am just showing how DB tends to use the word in a flowery manner. Show has literally zero scans of infinite universe from primary canon and the has literally anti-feats like bulma calculating the radius of the universe and having centre and edge. The arguments of infinity having edge only makes sense from a higher dimensional perspective which DB doesn't have.Literally useless because anyone with a brain knows Piccolo didn't have Infinite power. Comparing one person's use of the word to describe their power to the use regarding the universe is different when the statements are coming from a different source instead of someone as arrogant as Piccolo.
I suggest you interpret better the reasoning from the OP. It's not a subjective matter like me having a different interpretation, but rather an objective matter like the words having a deep context that no one here mentions. I backed up my claims with a highlight on the scans pointing out the words (example) and explaining their meaning with several sources. You should read the OP first.
I will repeat: the specific word used (Hateshinai) is only used in figurative sentences, not literal ones. That's it.
Quoting:
The fact that the cover art was discarded from it is already enough proof to not take that with an so high credibility people wants it to be. It wasn't considered an relevant information to appear again in Chozenshu. It's also worth mentioning that Herms himself stated this is simply an poetic statement of the universe and in the next "page" (left middle section of the cover art) it is said that the universe is infinitely expanding, not infinite in size. Also, I never claimed that it being reviewed by Akira supports that in contrast with Daizenshuu, I was explaining what the Chozenshu is in the first place.
Can't agree. One cannot head off to something infinitely far as this would be pointless in the first place, unless argued that said someone has Infinite Speed. Implying that Bulma's spaceship can head off to infinite galaxies is not just implying that it can travel through some galaxies, but an infinite number of them, since the metric being used is an infinite value rather than a finite one, which precisely discards the citation being literal.
Read the OP:
They are inside a cluster of stars, meaning they are not passing through galaxies or getting out one of them.
Good we can agree that it's not referring to the "observable universe", but rather its full scope (Universe 7), then.
That seems like headcanon, to the say the least. Not only the quotes from Daizenshuu 4 were already contested, but the universe having an edge/center is referring to the actual Universe 7 Macrocosm. Again, read the OP:
I literally see no proof here.
literally half of your OP is dedicated to how Hateshinai is only used figuratively lmaoI literally see no proof here.
Yet no one has provided arguments for the otherwise, while I provided three dictionaries for it. Throwing a Discord screenshot without any back up is a baseless claim, dude.literally half of your OP is dedicated to how Hateshinai is only used figuratively lmao
So a closer comparison would be like instead of "everywhere" a person would instead use "ubiquitous"? If it is fancy speak.
And in context we know without a doubt it was nothing but hype text which is obvious in King Piccolo case. Meanwhile, the quotes in the OP could have been misinterpreted which is why this thread is happening, which are clear differences.Even the narrator panel uses the word "infinite". i am just showing how DB tends to use the word in a flowery manner. Show has literally zero scans of infinite universe from primary canon and the has literally anti-feats like bulma calculating the radius of the universe and having centre and edge. The arguments of infinity having edge only makes sense from a higher dimensional perspective which DB doesn't have.
a japanese native speaker than a dictionary because he would figure out what it means in its context.
Fair.And in context we know without a doubt it was nothing but hype text which is obvious in King Piccolo case. Meanwhile, the quotes in the OP could have been misinterpreted which is why this thread is happening, which are clear differences.
Anywho, if the OP has the more clearer interpretation of the wording in the scans used not the OP then I agree with the it. I've already brought up the issue with the edge in the orginal thread so I'm not going to argue that.
Argument from belief.I am the person who actually trust a japanese native speaker than a dictionary because he would figure out what it means in its context.