Dragon Ball: Finite Universe

[TiltedFN]

So a closer comparison would be like instead of "everywhere" a person would instead use "ubiquitous"? If it is fancy speak.

Yeah, so this also could mean that "Hateshinai" is just used in a fancy sense, not that it's figurative and CANT be literal.

 

[TiltedFN]

The word has multiple meanings, and attempting to refute this by using a dictionary is a weak counter-argument because the meaning of the word is context-dependent.

And in this context, it is actually referring to the size of the universe, like we have been through this already with the actual translations, that is why we have infinite universe in the first place, this was agreed by the majority.

 

[Nostredam]

1:​

Aachintya31 is right. Using screenshots from Discord (that lack any back up or whatsoever) of supposedly japanese native speakers (that aren't even involved on this thread) is a argument from belief.

Also, I repeatedly stated multiple times on this thread that the word Hateshinai, while referring to something infinite/endless, is exclusive to figurative wordings. In Weblio itself it's stated that:

There is no limit . never ending . "--・a controversy ", "---a vast expanse of the sea"

You can ask your personal translator what Hateshinai means, and they will say it means infinite; but that's not the point of the OP, but the fact that the context of the word is not used literally.

Also, Weblio itself is a dictionary created by japanese natives, meaning that it has all the credibility that people so far are trying to disprove.

2:​

Another point that it wasn't discussed on this thread is Daizenshuu 7's scan, which uses the word 果てし無く, which means "eternally; interminably".

Obviously, the context has nothing to do with an infinite-sized universe, at best a universe so (vaguely) big that it's interminable; something already covered in post #149.

 

[ImmortalDread]

The page you linked says "endless". The "eternal" part is alternative meaning, and in this context, the last thing I would describe a space is "eternal", not "endless".

 

[Nostredam]

The page you linked says "endless".

Endless and infinite, because there they are synonyms

The "eternal" part is alternative meaning, and in this context, the last thing I would describe a space is "eternal", not "endless".

Which is why in post #149 I said this:

While Hateshinai is linked to eternal, it is more accurate to assume that, in those two scans, it is endless. After all, they were translated in this wiki with that word: -- That means that the context is seemingly endless, that is, coherent with the sentences. At best, this can be used to prove that the universe is "big" (vaguely, though), but not infinite.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I don't see how those sentences translated as "big", rather endless. My apologies, but my stance is unchanged.

 

[Nostredam]

I didn't said it was translated as big rather than endless. I said that in the context of the word "endless", which is being used figuratively, the universe could only be argued to be so "big" that it seems endless, hence why in the OP I typed this:

As such, those two scans from Chozenshu and Daizenshuu don't prove the universe is literally infinite in size; in fact, it doesn't even assert its true size in the first place, as the descriptions are used figuratively to describe it.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I did not assert that it is translated solely as "big." Rather, I argued that your conclusion, which suggests that the term is not to be taken literally and only means "big," is an inadequate counter-argument. Moreover, I am uncertain if the sentence is being used figuratively since it would be considered figurative if used once, but repeating it twice no longer sounds like a metaphor.

 

[Nostredam]

I would like you to elaborate how reaching the conclusion of, the term being seemingly endless, is inadequate to argue of it only being so big that it seems endless. Also, I don't know why a sentence being used two times only (with a little change of the last kanji) somehow proves that it doesn't sound like a metaphor, considering that if it were indeed infinite, terms like 無限 (Mugen) and similars would have been used instead.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I'm having trouble understanding where you got the phrase "seemingly endless" from, since it doesn't appear on the site you linked.

Regarding your second comment, why would an author repeat something that's meant to be metaphorical? Metaphors are meant to be vague in order to convey a message. By repeating it, the meaning becomes more direct and less metaphorical.

 

[Nostredam]

I'm having trouble understanding where you got the phrase "seemingly endless" from, since it doesn't appear on the site you linked.

Because "endless" in Hateshinai refers to something seemingly endless:

"seemingly endless in amount or number or degree or especially range"

--

Regarding your second comment, why would an author repeat something that's meant to be metaphorical? Metaphors are meant to be vague in order to convey a message. By repeating it, the meaning becomes more direct and less metaphorical.

Because the messages are not in the same guide, they are separated. The first one is Daizenshuu 7, and the second one is Chozenshu 4, which is a remake of Daizenshuu and covers the content from Daizenshuu 7.

 

[ImmortalDread]

And this make it vague?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Because "endless" in Hateshinai refers to something seemingly endless:



--



Because the messages are not in the same guide, they are separated. The first one is Daizenshuu 7, and the second one is Chozenshu 4, which is a remake of Daizenshuu and covers the content from Daizenshuu 7.

I'll be honest but this is just looking way too much into semantics.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Ya, way too much because in context, its unlikely to be seemingly. And this is a bit of cherrypicking, we both agree that those terms context-dependent.

 

[Nostredam]

And this make it vague?

The "vague" part is the fact that the actual information of the size of the universe is not directly been told, as the term used is figurative.

I'll be honest but this is just looking way too much into semantics.

I mean, I already presented three sources that say the exact same thing, with one of them being created by native japaneses and the other one showing an wall-text of how the word applies. People here seems to just disagree by nitpicking irrelevant details that the own source responds, which is turning this tiresome.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

The "vague" part is the fact that the actual information of the size of the universe is not directly been told, as the term used is figurative.



I mean, I already presented three sources that say the exact same thing, with one of them being created by native japaneses and the other one showing an wall-text of how the word applies. People here seems to just disagree by nitpicking irrelevant details that the own source responds, which is turning this tiresome.

You aren't going to get anywhere arguing exact semantics when the language you are trying to play heavily into semantics with is context based.

 

[Nostredam]

You aren't going to get anywhere arguing exact semantics when the language you are trying to play heavily into semantics with is context based.

I'm not arguing "exact semantics". To be honest, your entire response seems just non sequitur.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I'm not arguing "exact semantics". To be honest, your entire response seems just non sequitur.

Ok then just "semantics" then. Doing stuff like this wont help your case either.

 

[Kroneii1]

There is also a statement from DB Super : Episode 83
There are only 28 habitable planets left in entirety of universe 7 which itself rejects the notion of infinite universe.

there can be a finite amount of planets in a infinite size universe.

 

[ImmortalDread]

The "vague" part is the fact that the actual information of the size of the universe is not directly been told, as the term used is figurative.

I'm not arguing "exact semantics". To be honest, your entire response seems just non sequitur.

I mean, I already presented three sources that say the exact same thing, with one of them being created by native japaneses and the other one showing an wall-text of how the word applies. People here seems to just disagree by nitpicking irrelevant details that the own source responds, which is turning this tiresome.

In all honesty, you are linking sources to define the term that got many definitions won't refute the context.

My stance is still unchanged but I am in agreement for OP (for inconsistencies part)

 

[ImmortalDread]

I agree with this ofcourse.
There is also a statement from DB Super : Episode 83
There are only 28 habitable planets left in entirety of universe 7 which itself rejects the notion of infinite universe.

No it won't. What, the quantity of something inside a space has nothing to do with the size of space.

 

[Nostredam]

In all honesty, you are linking sources to define the term that got many definitions won't refute the context.

The general problem is that while it has many definitions, all of them fall under something that certainly doesn't support an High 3-A statement, which, again, can be seen in detail on the Linguee dictionary, which asserts the various definitions of the word with none of them being literal.

 

[Matrixxxx]

Since the Kaioshin realm is 1/10 of the universe.
Will the Kaioshin realm fall?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Incorrect, in matter of fact, all the definitions would support high 3-A except the alternative definition you choose out of all of them, makes no sense for me.

 

[Matrixxxx]

What's the latest? Will it be dropped?

 

[Matrixxxx]

Incorrect, in matter of fact, all the definitions would support high 3-A except the alternative definition you choose out of all of them, makes no sense for me.

Has your decision changed

 

[Nostredam]

Incorrect, in matter of fact, all the definitions would support high 3-A except the alternative definition you choose out of all of them, makes no sense for me.

Name them, then.

 

[ShivaShakti]

I saw earlier in the thread some contention regarding portrayal vs descriptions (notably from the guidebooks)

I think it would be more productive to judge that individually as opposed to comparing Toeiverse and Super simultaneously.

Just because Super may contain contradictions doesn't mean Toei canon will be the same.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I saw earlier in the thread some contention regarding portrayal vs descriptions (notably from the guidebooks)

I think it would be more productive to judge that individually as opposed to comparing Toeiverse and Super simultaneously.

Just because Super may contain contradictions doesn't mean Toei canon will be the same.

We have to treat the two the same cosmology wise.

 

[TiltedFN]

I saw earlier in the thread some contention regarding portrayal vs descriptions (notably from the guidebooks)

I think it would be more productive to judge that individually as opposed to comparing Toeiverse and Super simultaneously.

Just because Super may contain contradictions doesn't mean Toei canon will be the same.

composite cosmology

 

[ImmortalDread]

Has your decision changed

Overall? No, I am still in the agreement with OP

 

[Kroneii1]

I disagree with this, basically this all boils down to "hateshinai =/= literally infinite", since one dictionary uses said kanji as an example in a figurative sentence (in other dictionaries the kanji literally means infinite), but that does not imply that it cannot be used to describe something literally, like the universe is infinite in size or that it contains boundless galaxies.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I'm in the agreement with OP.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I'm in the agreement with OP.

Even though has shown against arguments he cannot refute? Could you take a look at the counterarguments?

 

[Nostredam]

I disagree with this, basically this all boils down to "hateshinai =/= literally infinite", since one dictionary uses said kanji as an example in a figurative sentence (in other dictionaries the kanji literally means infinite), but that does not imply that it cannot be used to describe something literally, like the universe is infinite in size or that it contains boundless galaxies.

This is basically a repetition of what other users have said. I never claimed that the kanji does not mean infinite, but the context employed with this word doesn't assert a literal infinite-sized structure, or anything similar. That's why I put both Weblio and Linguee to demonstrate how the word is used in sentences, instead of just looking for it's definition.

Also, it's three dictionaries, not one.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Personally I don't see this thread going anywhere now. There's 4 staff agreements who seem to be set on their decision without really any disagreement.

 

[Deagonx]

Personally I don't see this thread going anywhere now. There's 4 staff agreements who seem to be set on their decision without really any disagreement.

I agree.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Personally I don't see this thread going anywhere now. There's 4 staff agreements who seem to be set on their decision without really any disagreement.

O Medeus disagreed

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

O Medeus disagreed

He said he didn't care either way but preferred to keep it. I wouldn't call that a disagreement or agreement.

 

[Ped2018]

O Medeus disagreed

He didn't