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A simple yet devastating Undertale Nerf

Eh i highly disagree with this, all this thread talks about is weapons Frisk uses, and it's highly debatable if Frisk actually attacks a monsters SOUL or not, but for people like Sans, i don't think it should change.

Undertale is pretty vague when it comes to its abilities.
 
By the way, another thing that kind of debunks this whole thread, is the fact that Sans is really weak and is a glass cannon, but his KARMA abilities makes up for it, which is technically his SOUL magic at play here, i don't think it makes sense durability negation needs to be removed from Sans since its pretty likely that he can negate durability with SOUL magic/KARMA.
 
Sans2345 said:
By the way, another thing that kind of debunks this whole thread, is the fact that Sans is really weak and is a glass cannon, but his KARMA abilities makes up for it, which is technically his SOUL magic at play here, i don't think it makes sense durability negation needs to be removed from Sans since its pretty likely that he can negate durability with SOUL magic/KARMA.
Click to expand...
Bruh, nobody in 2023 unironically uses KARMA for sans anymore cause it's also based on some abstract "how high is your body count/how murderous are you" headcannon justification that throws in some spirt bomb false equivocation in it.
 
Ikelaggan said:
Bruh, nobody in 2023 unironically uses KARMA for sans anymore cause it's also based on some abstract "how high is your body count/how murderous are you" headcannon justification that throws in some spirt bomb false equivocation in it.
Click to expand...
KR is soul poison. nothing says it's anything else or is more effective depending how much ass you eat.

sans poisoning someone's soul is negating durability, along with his own magic that ignores armor items.
 
I was always under the impression that Magic in Undertale harmed both the body and SOUL. This explains why Magic is capable of both harming Frisk’s SOUL, and harming Souless beings/Objects like Toriel hitting Flowey, or Undyne damaging a bridge.

So Magic being able to harm Flowey should not be an argument.
 
Comiphorous said:
sans poisoning someone's soul is negating durability, along with his own magic that ignores armor items.
Click to expand...
There's still no justification for anyone using it as a one shot when it just kills through hp. Which in a cross verse situation you can't use how fast the hp is dropping as a justification for how potent the poison is on the soul. Cause that's headbutting game mechanics into the scailing.
 
Ikelaggan said:
There's still no justification for anyone using it as a one shot when it just kills through hp.
Click to expand...
Undertale soul manip doesn't one shot though...?

you need proof it one-shots, and undertale has never shown that (besides omega flowey, but he does that through sheer AP)

It still dura negs, but it cant one shot as it's never shown to.
 
Comiphorous said:
Undertale soul manip doesn't one shot though...?

you need proof it one-shots, and undertale has never shown that (besides omega flowey, but he does that through sheer AP)

It still dura negs, but it cant one shot as it's never shown to.
Click to expand...
Expect every sans W treats it in the opposite way and justify it as a one shot via durability negation ei every soul destruction gg you can find those matches.
 
Ikelaggan said:
Expect every sans W treats it in the opposite way and justify it as a one shot via durability negation ei every soul destruction gg you can find those matches.
Click to expand...
Dude people try to say he teleports to dodge, anyone who argues he one-shots with soul hax should be, as Garfield would put it, "Dragged out into the street and shot"
 
I think it's more like a thing which hurts both SOUL and Body since game states both information and confirms it.

About weapons it was the most lame thing ever possible since it attacks only Monster's body, library even got special books about it explaining how we deal insane amount of damage to the dudes.

Game multiply have shown that we hurt both our body and soul at the same time though.

Healing is just a thing, because Monster stated that it instantly becomes energy and heals out SOUL after we it saying it "Monster's food".
Also, Frisk can heal themself with DT and empowering themself.
Like, when Flowey took other's, we started to get HP from getting stronger and etc.
 
By the way, Sans and Chara should not be affected by this, because Chara did it other way and sans literally nukes our soul with KARMA in just seconds.

We have survived it just because we have stronger SOUL as Flowey stated that our SOUL becomes more and more powerful from time to time.



Derail moment: Asgore actually should have rematch with Sans since apparently, Sans can't nuke souls with ease
 
Didn't read all the above (Saw the cringy delailment, unfortunately), but monsters most likely harm Frisk's soul just like someone attacking somebody else with armor may hit the armor and yet still harm the body of the person inside, Frisk's body & anything beyond being the "armor" and the soul being the "body" (replacing the example). Myself I wouldn't say that's "limited" Dura Negation, just the way the power works, which is a bit situational, but yes calling it limited makes sense.

What matters most is having the profiles have a well-written text explaining how their Soul Manip works. Is that something the people who disagree also disagree with?
 
Eficiente said:
Didn't read all the above (Saw the cringy delailment, unfortunately), but monsters most likely harm Frisk's soul just like someone attacking somebody else with armor may hit the armor and yet still harm the body of the person inside, Frisk's body & anything beyond being the "armor" and the soul being the "body" (replacing the example). Myself I wouldn't say that's "limited" Dura Negation, just the way the power works, which is a bit situational, but yes calling it limited makes sense.

What matters most is having the profiles have a well-written text explaining how their Soul Manip works. Is that something the people who disagree also disagree with?
Click to expand...
I wouldn't disagree with it as long as it's written correctly

Plus I haven't seen a counter to Mettaton's electricity being effected by armor yet
 
Eficiente said:
Didn't read all the above (Saw the cringy delailment, unfortunately), but monsters most likely harm Frisk's soul just like someone attacking somebody else with armor may hit the armor and yet still harm the body of the person inside, Frisk's body & anything beyond being the "armor" and the soul being the "body" (replacing the example). Myself I wouldn't say that's "limited" Dura Negation, just the way the power works, which is a bit situational, but yes calling it limited makes sense.

What matters most is having the profiles have a well-written text explaining how their Soul Manip works. Is that something the people who disagree also disagree with?
Click to expand...
an explanation so 'one-shot with soul hax' is brought up less in threads would be good. quite a few Q&A threads ask whether they one shot or not.
 
I think all monsters have a "SOUL Magic:" bit in their Notable Attacks/Techniques section, I can evaluate whatever wording is proposed to replace what they have right now.
 
Chara just attacks, like any character with NPI would. They can also take a soul and make themselves better due to it. So there is no relation.
 
lets just let this thread rot i don't see this going anywhere there are like multiple undertale threads going on already just let those ones finish and continue
 
damn this kinda derailed lmao

well, i'm neutral towards the limited durability neg part, but i'm up for the soul magic explanation thing

at the same time that aye's arguments make sense, the evidence against it also does so, this feels like a case of lack of explicitly information regarding the relation of armor and, well, defense
 
Two hours late, hello.

Eficiente said:
Didn't read all the above...
Click to expand...
My understanding of what you said here is that you overall agree that it should be noted as limited dura negation, so I'll list you as agree. Their soul manipulation seems fairly straightforward: monster magic targets both the body and the soul.
Originlima said:
Disagree....
Click to expand...
Sorry but this doesn't make any sense, we see plenty of food that seems perfectly normal in UT. We see Toriel make the pie--there's no magic being involved in that. And of course the food disappears after it's used, because Frisk...ate it?
TheMonkeMan said:
Anyway, I'd really love if this got accepted but I'm not sure it should be.
Click to expand...
I'll put your vote as neutral for now I guess.
Sans2345 said:
...the weapons Frisk sues...
Click to expand...
The entirety of the thread so far has been talking about the defensive items in the game, which is the strongest argument for the thread anyways. I think it's unfair to say all we talk about is the weapons when they've been mentioned maybe twice since my opening post.
Sans2345 said:
By the way, another thing that kind of debunks this whole thread, is the fact that Sans is really weak and is a glass cannon, but his KARMA abilities makes up for it, which is technically his SOUL magic at play here, i don't think it makes sense durability negation needs to be removed from Sans since its pretty likely that he can negate durability with SOUL magic/KARMA.
Click to expand...
Why would this debunk the whole thread when what I'm applying is for the entire verse? I have already said, verbatim, that Sans wouldn't have his durability negation removed. What I have said is that a few of Sans matches are still made on the idea that he outright one-shots people instead of just damaging them quickly like we see in-game.
TheGatememer said:
I was always under the impression that Magic in Undertale harmed both the body and SOUL. This explains why Magic is capable of both harming Frisk’s SOUL, and harming Souless beings/Objects like Toriel hitting Flowey, or Undyne damaging a bridge.

So Magic being able to harm Flowey should not be an argument.
Click to expand...
That's exactly my point! Magic affecting both the body and the soul is supporting evidence for how magic is affected by conventional durability.
 
Thelastmlg said:
at the same time that aye's arguments make sense, the evidence against it also does so, this feels like a case of lack of explicitly information regarding the relation of armor and, well, defense
Click to expand...
You're correct!

Most of the arguments against this thread are reasonable headcanons given how vague and airy Undertale is as a verse, but that's just it--they aren't really canon. The Old Tutu providing 'some other form of defense', all food being magical, all items providing magical defense, ATK and DEF not being actual stats but purely just your soul weakening--none of this is ever actually stated, implicitly or otherwise, in-game or in any other source of lore. This isn't even bringing up some of Jaften's grievances with how we treat the verse.

Generally speaking wiki policy, in cases of reasonable headcanon versus 'what the game says', sides with the latter.
 
Ayewale said:
Sorry but this doesn't make any sense, we see plenty of food that seems perfectly normal in UT. We see Toriel make the pie--there's no magic being involved in that. And of course the food disappears after it's used, because Frisk...ate it?
Click to expand...
Sorry but the game itself stated that all food which disappears is monster-food.

And yeah, who tf will eat humans food in Underground full of monsters?

Also, it's currently unknown how magic food is prepared. It's just known that they just disappear
 
Ayewale said:
You're correct!

Most of the arguments against this thread are reasonable headcanons given how vague and airy Undertale is as a verse, but that's just it--they aren't really canon. The Old Tutu providing 'some other form of defense', all food being magical, all items providing magical defense, ATK and DEF not being actual stats but purely just your soul weakening--none of this is ever actually stated, implicitly or otherwise, in-game or in any other source of lore. This isn't even bringing up some of Jaften's grievances with how we treat the verse.

Generally speaking wiki policy, in cases of reasonable headcanon versus 'what the game says', sides with the latter.
Click to expand...
"None stated ahh"
www.google.com

Monster Food Theories (part 1)

(A multi-part essay because I love world-building.) Monster food is a pretty central theme of Undertale From Toriel’s pies to Papyrus’s spaghetti to Asgore’s tea, it seems like monsters express their...
www.google.com www.google.com
Sorry for tumbler, couldn't get another scans besides that crappy site💀
 
Originlima said:
"None stated ahh"
www.google.com

Monster Food Theories (part 1)

(A multi-part essay because I love world-building.) Monster food is a pretty central theme of Undertale From Toriel’s pies to Papyrus’s spaghetti to Asgore’s tea, it seems like monsters express their...
www.google.com www.google.com
Sorry for tumbler, couldn't get another scans besides that crappy site💀
Click to expand...
Aye, an actual citation.

Wouldn't this just mean that monster food affects both the SOUL and the body? Or that monster food is just directly converted into physical energy? In any case I'll edit out 'conventional' from 'conventional monster food' because I was wrong on that point.

Although Frisk's bandage can still heal you just as much as any monster food can and that definitely isn't magical.
Originlima said:
Sorry but the game itself stated that all food which disappears is monster-food...
Click to expand...
Does it? The source you provided from the tumblr page says nothing of the sort.
 
Ayewale said:
Aye, an actual citation.

Wouldn't this just mean that monster food affects both the SOUL and the body? Or that monster food is just directly converted into physical energy? In any case I'll edit out 'conventional' from 'conventional monster food' because I was wrong on that point.

Although Frisk's bandage can still heal you just as much as any monster food can and that definitely isn't magical.
Click to expand...
Probably HP is something what is both SOUL and Body since SOUL is a culmination of the person.

Though, Frisk can heal themself all of sudden with determination.
Ayewale said:
Does it? The source you provided from the tumblr page says nothing of the sort.
Click to expand...
Actually, I think that food in UT is really vague

Like, we can eat the ******* ROCK and heal 1 HP.

Or we can eat a basic ass spell and heal 60 HP even paralyzing all dogs with it.
 
Originlima said:
Actually, I think that food in UT is really vague

Like, we can eat the ******* ROCK and heal 1 HP.

Or we can eat a basic ass spell and heal 60 HP even paralyzing all dogs with it.
Click to expand...
You can also eat one of Vegetoid's magic attacks... and also Vegetoid themselves? So apparently humans can potentially just eat monsters?
 
Jaften said:
You can also eat one of Vegetoid's magic attacks... and also Vegetoid themselves? So apparently humans can potentially just eat monsters?
Click to expand...
Like, I don't see a point of eating discussion from now on
 
Ikelaggan said:
Insta kill = one shot
There's still a narrative of soul poison one shoting
Click to expand...
didn't notice the one person who was saying that.

but uh, then i think the correct action here is fixing the profiles, so that they correctly show they don't one shot.

something like the notable techniques section going in about what the soul hax is, and then at the end just saying how it doesn't one shot. problem solved. if people still say 'insta-kill' 'one-shot' or some crap then you can bully them for not being able to reading.
 
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