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A simple yet devastating Undertale Nerf

Comiphorous said:
why would that make it limited...?

if an item defends you from soul based attacks, that doesn't make the soul attacks limited dura neg. that means the items (and the user, as they're still taking soul damage) is resisting the soul attacks.
Click to expand...
If a conventional item is defending you from a monster's magic, that means their magic doesn't entirely ignore durability. Hence it is limited.

You cannot assume that stuff like the Tutu 'resist soul magic' because you'd have to prove it provides explicitly magical defense and not physical. Which means our argument's getting circular.

Toriel's magic affecting Flowey (a soul-less being) is direct proof that magic is both physical and, well, magical in nature. Hence it would be affected by conventional durability. Hence it doesn't completely ignore conventional durability. Toriel has no knowledge of Flowey's soul-less nature, so you cannot possibly argue that she 'switched to a physical attack'--that's just her regular magic.
 
Jaften said:
So I just remembered something that kinda proves the OP correct.
How does a magic attack hit Flowey, who has no soul?

I vote "agree" to the thread in light of this.
Click to expand...
This is the dumbest thing brought up tbh...

Monster magic attacks aren't JUST soul-based, look at Papyrus' bones(some are literally lying in a box in his house), it's very physical, yet it still damages Frisk's SOUL, to deny that Frisk's SOUL is being damaged is to deny humans and monsters have SOULs to begin with, meaning you make everyone have no soul by vs standards, and just have flowey have an even more absent soul, or you say they smack both body and soul.
 
DaReaperMan said:
This is the dumbest thing brought up tbh...

Monster magic attacks aren't JUST soul-based, look at Papyrus' bones(some are literally lying in a box in his house), it's very physical, yet it still damages Frisk's SOUL, to deny that Frisk's SOUL is being damaged is to deny humans and monsters have SOULs to begin with, meaning you make everyone have no soul by vs standards, and just have flowey have an even more absent soul, or you say they smack both body and soul.
Click to expand...
Who here denied that Frisk's soul is getting damaged? My whole point is that conventional durability reduces the damage of the monster's magic, meaning their magic is affected by durability, meaning that it doesn't entirely ignore durability negation. Flowey getting physically affected by an attack is supporting evidence that the magic isn't entirely magical in nature.

Magical attacks being partially based off physicals is something we all agree with, that's what I've been trying to prove.
 
DaReaperMan said:
It'd still be dura neg, it's damaging the soul, and that's objectively dura neg...
Click to expand...
I don't disagree. I never said we're removing dura negation entirely.

My point is that:
  • their profiles state that they can ignore conventional durability
  • their attacks are weakened by conventional durability
  • ...ergo, their attacks only ignore conventional durability to a limited extent.
  • ...and their attacks affecting both the soul and the body is supporting evidence.
If you want to prove that they do entirely ignore durability you'd have to prove that all of the conventional items in the games aren't conventional, despite only a few of them being explicitly made of monster magic.
 
Ayewale said:
So you agree that soul magic has an aspect of physical interaction? Doesn't matter if it's "just fire manipulation", that's my entire argument.
Click to expand...
Holy shit of course the fire manipulation is gonna be fire manipulation.
We don't see other uses of Magic having physical interaction.
 
Ayewale said:
Who here denied that Frisk's soul is getting damaged? My whole point is that conventional durability reduces the damage of the monster's magic, meaning their magic is affected by durability, meaning that it doesn't entirely ignore durability negation. Flowey getting physically affected by an attack is supporting evidence that the magic isn't entirely magical in nature.

Magical attacks being partially based off physicals is something we all agree with, that's what I've been trying to prove.
Click to expand...
It's still damaging the soul, which is dura neg. Literally all of the armor brought up is supernatural in nature or Literally poked fun at to not be a defensive item by the game.

I don't care about your semantics or whatever else, the objective truth is that when Mettaton grabbing you and electrocuting your ass and Papyrus beating you over the head with bones, it's still damaging the soul, and Electrocution shouldn't even be effected BY armor unless it's rubber or some shit and nothing like that exists in Undertale as a defensive item.
 
DaReaperMan said:
It's still damaging the soul, which is dura neg. Literally all of the armor brought up is supernatural in nature or Literally poked fun at to not be a defensive item by the game.

I don't care about your semantics or whatever else, the objective truth is that when Mettaton grabbing you and electrocuting your ass and Papyrus beating you over the head with bones, it's still damaging the soul, and Electrocution shouldn't even be effected BY armor unless it's rubber or some shit and nothing like that exists in Undertale as a defensive item.
Click to expand...
The old tutu is a defensive item. And the armor's having buffs doesn't mean that they grant a magical defense, you have to prove that separately. 'The cowboy hat buffs ATK, so clearly it's defense is magical is nature' is a very random conclusion to draw from an item presented as being entirely normal, and it goes for most of the other ones.

And I cannot stress this enough, I'm not trying to remove their dura neg. So saying "it's still dura negation" means nothing.
 
Ayewale said:
I don't disagree. I never said we're removing dura negation entirely.

My point is that:
  • their profiles state that they can ignore conventional durability
  • their attacks are weakened by conventional durability
  • ...ergo, their attacks only ignore conventional durability to a limited extent.
  • ...and their attacks affecting both the soul and the body is supporting evidence.
If you want to prove that they do entirely ignore durability you'd have to prove that all of the conventional items in the games aren't conventional, despite only a few of them being explicitly made of monster magic.
Click to expand...
Explain Mettaton. He uses electricity which is effected by Frisk's DEF, why in the pissing hell would physical protection that is not electricity-proof in any way help with being grabbed and electrocuted? Explain that.
Ayewale said:
The old tutu is a defensive item. And the armor's having buffs doesn't mean that they grant a magical defense, you have to prove that separately. 'The cowboy hat buffs ATK, so clearly it's defense is magical is nature' is a very random conclusion to draw from an item presented as being entirely normal, and it goes for most of the other ones.

And I cannot stress this enough, I'm not trying to remove their dura neg. So saying "it's still dura negation" means nothing.
Click to expand...
Sarcastically called such by its description, basically saying it ain't doing squat for Frisk physically.
 
I'll address it Ig.
First of all.
Not all magic is the crazy dura neg soul hax shit.
As mentioned before, some Monsters can create Fire. Fire is actually still Dura Neg, but still touches physical things.
If there WERE things made to increase dura and what not to defend yourself from such hax, then there's that.
Though.. As others mentioned.. that would never matter as those don't really stop Fire, Electricity, etc.
Second of all, you're listing Frisk's weapons when they are very obviously SPECIAL weapons because you'd need something that either negates the Monsters' Magic bodies or it is some intangible thing that can touch them.
And what the **** do you mean they list ATK and DEF?
Have y'all ever thought that they maybe mean the soul weakening or something?
And if I recall correctly the weakening thing applied to Monsters too but they're made of Magic.

When I see ATK and DEF I think it's in referral to your soul, how strong it is, and how you can guard it.
 
TheMonkeMan said:
I'll address it Ig.
First of all.
Not all magic is the crazy dura neg soul hax shit.
As mentioned before, some Monsters can create Fire. Fire is actually still Dura Neg, but still touches physical things.
If there WERE things made to increase dura and what not to defend yourself from such hax, then there's that.
Though.. As others mentioned.. that would never matter as those don't really stop Fire, Electricity, etc.
Second of all, you're listing Frisk's weapons when they are very obviously SPECIAL weapons because you'd need something that either negates the Monsters' Magic bodies or it is some intangible thing that can touch them.
And what the **** do you mean they list ATK and DEF?
Have y'all ever thought that they maybe mean the soul weakening or something?
And if I recall correctly the weakening thing applied to Monsters too but they're made of Magic.

When I see ATK and DEF I think it's in referral to your soul, how strong it is, and how you can guard it.
Click to expand...
"Because they are made of magic, monsters’ bodies are attuned to their SOUL." -Snowdin library

even if the ATK and DEF stats of monsters are referring to a monster's physical stats, it's carry over to their soul, as they're attuned to each other.
 
TheMonkeMan said:
I'll address it Ig.
First of all.
Not all magic is the crazy dura neg soul hax shit.
As mentioned before, some Monsters can create Fire. Fire is actually still Dura Neg, but still touches physical things.
If there WERE things made to increase dura and what not to defend yourself from such hax, then there's that.
Though.. As others mentioned.. that would never matter as those don't really stop Fire, Electricity, etc.
Second of all, you're listing Frisk's weapons when they are very obviously SPECIAL weapons because you'd need something that either negates the Monsters' Magic bodies or it is some intangible thing that can touch them.
And what the **** do you mean they list ATK and DEF?
Have y'all ever thought that they maybe mean the soul weakening or something?
And if I recall correctly the weakening thing applied to Monsters too but they're made of Magic.

When I see ATK and DEF I think it's in referral to your soul, how strong it is, and how you can guard it.
Click to expand...
  1. All magic is the 'crazy dura neg soul hax shit' per the wiki. All the monsters (afaik) have "ignores conventional durability" on their page, and there is no distinction made on these pages. This distinction also isn't made much in the game, either, save for stuff like Sans' KARMA.
  2. Why are Frisk's weapons 'special weapons'? The monsters are mostly made of magic, not entirely. Flowey getting bopped around by a fireball, and the fact that you can...physically interact with any of them is direct proof that they are not entirely made of magic.
  3. ATK and DEF meaning 'the soul weakening' is headcanon, simply put. You can't just state completely random interpretations of UT as fact. I mention that we list ATK and DEF simply to make it clear that it's fair to bring them up in this thread.
 
Ayewale said:
ATK and DEF meaning 'the soul weakening' is headcanon, simply put. You can't just state completely random interpretations of UT as fact. I mention that we list ATK and DEF simply to make it clear that it's fair to bring them up in this thread.
Click to expand...
Papyrus' usual stats are 20 ATK 20 DEF

on the genocide route, he has 3 ATK 3 DEF.

So his soul was weakening, and his ATK and DEF changed reflecting that.
 
Comiphorous said:
"Because they are made of magic, monsters’ bodies are attuned to their SOUL." -Snowdin library

even if the ATK and DEF stats of monsters are referring to a monster's physical stats, it's carry over to their soul, as they're attuned to each other.
Click to expand...
Some more context:
otCHz8Q.png

90OVAQk.png

Just to make it clear that their bodies are physical for anyone else saying otherwise.

Anyways, if their bodies are attuned with their SOUL...so what? How does that make the stick or the toy knife (both weapons that can deal damage) non-conventional? Monsters are still physical creatures: you can perfectly damage and kill one with conventional weaponry. Which, you know, is required for the humans to have won the war versus monsters?
 
Undertale the laws in such universe completely work different then ours humans in Undertale also have souls and monster's attack their souls,humans do the same back. So let's say tanjiro from demon slayer tries to kill asgore he could only attack their soul because of their physiology.
 
Last edited:
Ayewale said:
  1. All magic is the 'crazy dura neg soul hax shit' per the wiki. All the monsters (afaik) have "ignores conventional durability" on their page, and there is no distinction made on these pages. This distinction also isn't made much in the game, either, save for stuff like Sans' KARMA.
  2. Why are Frisk's weapons 'special weapons'? The monsters are mostly made of magic, not entirely. Flowey getting bopped around by a fireball, and the fact that you can...physically interact with any of them is direct proof that they are not entirely made of magic.
  3. ATK and DEF meaning 'the soul weakening' is headcanon, simply put. You can't just state completely random interpretations of UT as fact. I mention that we list ATK and DEF simply to make it clear that it's fair to bring them up in this thread.
Click to expand...
But damaging their physical forms won't matter, their magic forms are the important part.
 
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