Devil May Cry: Downgrade's Awakening (Yes, from Tier 1)

[Tarang123]

And these 9 dimensions have qualitative superiority, right? Because if that's the case, then what's even the argument against it?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

And these 9 dimensions have qualitative superiority, right? Because if that's the case, then what's even the argument against it?

No.

We're given no real information as to the nature of these dimensions. Just that they are dimensions, and are vaguely "higher".

 

[Hellscream]

"A basic nine-dimensional form, generally speaking, it originates from and returns to a higher dimension"

Prove the said superiority of those 9 dimensions.

I read the original upgrade thread, and the entire blog.
There is 0 proof. You simply took a 9-D statement and took it literal which is not accepted here according to my knowledge.

 

[Cyberblader90]

And these 9 dimensions have qualitative superiority, right? Because if that's the case, then what's even the argument against it?

mainly that the characters used for the sentence denotes spatial dimensions

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I don't think the OP claimed the two were equal in size; Just the the difference in size was not infinite or enough to trivialize the HW to the extent of being an entire lower dimension. The nexus thing is not really relevant when it comes to size, honestly, as one realm corrupting another and eventually overwriting it (with no given timeframe, at that) isn't an indicator of that realm being bigger. Being devoured by darkness is, again, not relevant since the context here also implies it being indicative of demons threatening to wipe out humanity.

Normally it would be fair to assume that the size difference between the Demon World and the Human World remained the same, but we now know that the light split the world in half.

It goes without saying that a finite construct cannot split an infinite construct in half. Therefore, the Demon World is not infinitly larger in comparison with the current DMC Human World.

Yes, the OP is.

Those two things are relevant in this context because 1) OP is claiming both realms are of the similar size 2) they prove the light insignificance to the darkness

Being stated as an entrance to a place doesn't imply a significant size difference, let alone an infinite one. Entrances don't have a set size compared to what they're leading into, you know.

The point of the mirror world is to show that a standard universe like the human world is basically where you clean your shoes before entering into a house. A small irrelevant part to the whole that is the demon world.

Being a window into a place doesn't mean it is a full copy of that place; Being stated as a "window" into something else is commonly used to convey only looking at a small part of a larger thing, so it's basically saying the mirror world is a small glimpse of the human world, not the whole thing.

A window in time and space aka a portal to a dimension that is said to mirror a universe. It's there to prove the mirror dimension is exactly as what is described, a universe reflecting the human world that is disconnected from it.

 

[Robo432343]

Prove the said superiority of those 9 dimensions.

I read the original upgrade thread, and the entire blog.
There is 0 proof. You simply took a 9-D statement and took it literal which is not accepted here according to my knowledge.

ffs dude. There are literally other ways to get to tier 1 instead of what you said. this just shows me that you didn't read the tier 1 dmc blog at all

A: "One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves. For example: A cosmology where the entirety of our 3-dimensional universe is in fact a subset of a much greater 4-dimensional space, or generalizations of this same scenario to higher numbers of dimensions; i.e A cosmology where the four-dimensional spacetime continuum is just the infinitesimal surface of a 5-dimensional object, and etc.

However, vaguer cases where a universe is merely stated to be higher-dimensional while existing in a scaling vacuum with no previously established relationship of superiority towards lower-dimensional ones (or no evidence to infer such a relationship from) should be analysed more carefully. In such cases where information as to their exact nature and scale is scarce, it is preferable that the higher dimensions in question be fully-sized in order to qualify."

which many recent Tier 1 upgrades does this. oh and now youre just gonna debunk this by saying whatboutism ik

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Prove the said superiority of those 9 dimensions.

I read the original upgrade thread, and the entire blog.
There is 0 proof. You simply took a 9-D statement and took it literal which is not accepted here according to my knowledge.

Your knowledge is wrong then. Let me quote you to the previous downgrade attempt. https://vsbattles.com/threads/dmc-downgrades-the-ones-everyone-expected.149392/page-2#post-5483311

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

On the bright side we will have 4 downgrade threads debunked all using different reasons so we won't need to repeat ourselves in the future

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

DMC has been tried to be debunked this entire year.

 

[RedReaper616]

So it can't get more explicit.

It is true that the souls of demons and some humans (at least the damned/sinners, and those killed by specific demons) are confirmed to end up in the Demon World after their bodies are killed, but this does not mean that the souls originate from the Demon World or that the Demon World are their final destination.
It is not the case that ALL human souls end up in the Demon World; in fact, Devil May Cry 3 states several times that human souls get sent to hell for their sins, and it is redundant for the games to mention that specific demons will drag human souls to hell by killing them if the souls of humans will automatically go there after death.
It is entirely possible that non-sinning souls dissipate into the higher dimensional Primordial Chaos, and that if the souls of demons are permanently destroyed that they return to Primordial Chaos.

The Demon World IS Hell, so I'm lost as to what the scans are attempting to prove. And in said link, it says they attack you, guilty OR innocent, so the new question is how does this prove any redundancy if your scan literally states they do X, but also do Y as often for reasons unrelated to X? It should ALSO be noted that Souls automatically going to Hell after death was a concept that was primarily founded in DMC3, because whilst Demons have been humans who have went to Hell, this is never been explicitly tied as an automatic journey to the Demon World like it was in the third entry of the series. It kinda just was a thing that was mentioned to happen occasionally, like the Sargasso entry. So them stating it isn't redundant anyway, because this is where the idea of the Demon World genuinely being where Souls went to after death was established.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yes, the OP is.

Those two things are relevant in this context because 1) OP is claiming both realms are of the similar size 2) they prove the light insignificance to the darkness

The OP acknowledges the realms are not equal in size. They are simply saying the difference in size is not enough for tier 1. Do you understand that?

The point of the mirror world is to show that a standard universe like the human world is basically where you clean your shoes before entering into a house. A small irrelevant part to the whole that is the demon world.

That is a size difference, but not a significant enough one to render the smaller realm "irrelevant". It's just vaguely smaller.

A window in time and space aka a portal to a dimension that is said to mirror a universe. It's there to prove the mirror dimension is exactly as what is described, a universe reflecting the human world that is disconnected from it.

A single statement of reflecting the world is not really enough to prove it's an entire universe though... It's just "this world", which wouldn't mean the entire universe without further context, and it might not even be reflecting the entire thing. That's on you to prove. To quote our own standards on this topic:

"Saying that it "Mirrors your world" does not automatically equate to mirroring the entire universe you came from as World can also mean planet. And it can even refer to locations in between planet and Universe. And even if the realms are larger than planet sized, the "Your World" aspect often refers to specific sceneries rather than the entire Space-Time Continuum. And just because world frequently refers to universe doesn't mean everything larger than a planet that is called a world is a universe."

And since I never debunked this previously,

Also more proof that the human world is insignificant is that Mundus dimension, which is an infinitely expanding universe beyond human understanding, is only a battleground for Mundus and Dante inside the demon world.

Being "infinitely expanding" does not indicate how big that dimension is, only that it will keep growing and never stop. It could be a mile wide, or a few light years, but I've seen nothing indicating how big it's supposed to actually be.

DMC has been tried to be debunked this entire year.

"This entire year". What, all one and half months of it?

 

[Hellscream]

Your knowledge is wrong then. Let me quote you to the previous downgrade attempt. https://vsbattles.com/threads/dmc-downgrades-the-ones-everyone-expected.149392/page-2#post-5483311

There's nothing indicating an actual 9-Dimensional form in that quote, but i'll give a proper reply tomorrow as it's almost 6 am here.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

"This entire year". What, all one and half months of it?

Year before it included miss

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

The OP acknowledges the realms are not equal in size. They are simply saying the difference in size is not enough for tier 1. Do you understand that?

OP is claiming the world was cut in half. Do you understand what cut in half means? I do even though english isn't my first language. Whether OP is contradicting himself (as seen above) is irrelevant when his first claim is that.

A single statement of reflecting the world is not really enough to prove it's an entire universe though... It's just "this world", which wouldn't mean the entire universe without further context, and it might not even be reflecting the entire thing. That's on you to prove. To quote our own standards on this topic:

"Saying that it "Mirrors your world" does not automatically equate to mirroring the entire universe you came from as World can also mean planet. And it can even refer to locations in between planet and Universe. And even if the realms are larger than planet sized, the "Your World" aspect often refers to specific sceneries rather than the entire Space-Time Continuum. And just because world frequently refers to universe doesn't mean everything larger than a planet that is called a world is a universe."

World in the DMC context is about universes. The first thing we are told in the manga is that the world was cut in two and the world of light exist along the world of darkness. Mundus wants to conquer the human world, argosax was fusing the worlds and even when Dante was BFR to another universe in the second novel it is still called world

World in this context rarely refers to anything but a universe and when it refers to something like the planet there is always a lot of context behind it.

Moreover needing a window in space time aka a portal to reach the mirror dimension clearly implies you need to move between space times

And since I never debunked this previously,

Being "infinitely expanding" does not indicate how big that dimension is, only that it will keep growing and never stop. It could be a mile wide, or a few light years, but I've seen nothing indicating how big it's supposed to actually be.

No, you didn't. There is a whole ass thread explaining that Mundus did indeed create a universe that was infinitely expanding and beyond human understanding.

"This entire year". What, all one and half months of it?

Probably talking about earlier attempts like the G1 blog and the pluto thread

 

[Robo432343]

There's nothing indicating an actual 9-Dimensional form in that quote, but i'll give a proper reply tomorrow as it's almost 6 am here.

Let me translate it for you

"The Soul It continues to hide mysteries that humans and demons don't understand, mysteries but every human has such. A basic nine-dimensional form, generally speaking, it originates from and returns to a higher dimension beyond the Eightfold Path."

I dont see how this is not talking about 9-D at all

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

This is the thing, the scan is absolutely wrong.

First we know that the light did no separate the world, in fact it was a demon god who emerged from the darkness.

Secondly is that the demon world was never split in half, it was split in two. The manga gives us the whole story about how the light is only a small part of it to the point it was devoured by darkness something that was already established in the first novel as Gilver using a nexus the size of a bar was overwriting the human world's existence into a new demon world. Something that would be practically impossible if the human world was of the same size of the demon world.

For more proof of this the mirror world (a copy of the human world) is basically the front door to the demon world.

Also more proof that the human world is insignificant is that Mundus dimension, which is an infinitely expanding universe beyond human understanding, is only a battleground for Mundus and Dante inside the demon world.

Basically to use this piece of information to "debunk" all the previous lore and cosmology info dumps we have is like using DMC5 statement about SDT Dante being comparable to sparda, in other words its stupid and practically ignores everything.

1-
Why not make a simple attempt at harmonizing both scans?

The Black Horned Demon God and then Sparda separated via. seals.
And then the light being independent split the world in half.

The world was split in two via. separation.
Then the light managed to split the world in half.

No need to dismiss scans.

2-
The mirror world being an entrance doesn't tell us about its size, or that it is a Low 2-C construct.

3-
Also translated as "Endlessly stretching". Any pocket dimension would be beyond the average human's understanding.
There is also the statement from Kamiya that Mundus' dimension is the same size as the universe of this world, so we can't pull off a claim that it is not finite.

4-
I have made no attempt to remove Dante's scaling from Sparda.

And like I explained above the human world did not do shit except bring instability to the world, it brought Chaos, something that Pluto did not like and separated the world. (Mind you this shit was affecting the human world as the earth was torn apart many times over.) While the demon world, who is the crucible/container of chaos, was full of chaos.

It managed to split the world in half in the current DMC cosmology, apparently. Nothing you mentioned here is new to anyone who read the OP and explanation blog, nor does it challenge the scan that the light split the world in half.

It is in fact a mirror of the human world, hence why it is a "window in time and space" and serves as the entrance to the demon world.

How does being a mirror dimension tell us about its size? As stated, mirror dimensions in fiction can be much smaller than what they are reflecting, no reason to assume full size without evidence.
Being a mirror world doesn't inherently make it a window in time and space or the entrance to the demon world. It just coincidently happened to be so.

Like I said, a single piece of one media contradicting several others is useless, just like Sparda being comparable to Dante in 5 yet Dante killing a stronger sparda clone or stronger enemies in earlier entries.

Also this same World that is repeatedly given infinite statements with two extra that are admittedly localizations. Several of which come from PoC.

Basically PoC itself contradicts that scan.

Thanks to the added context, we know that we should not interpret endless statements to mean infinite; just extremely large.

This way we can avert contradiction, and reconcile all scans.
We don't automatically assume statements about endless size to mean literally infinite; it is a case-by-case thing that depends on the context. The most consistent approach here is that they do not mean literally infinite or literally not finite.

Good, very good and it would work perfectly if only you ignored how the demon world is specifically a container/crucible of chaos.

This is why souls come and go to the demon world:

-V saying return to the underworld to demons he's about to kill[3]

-Human souls going to hell (the demon world) after death[4]

-Demons managing the souls of the dead in the demon world[5]

-even PoC makes a reference to this in one of its Demon Book statements[1]

Here is the thing, yes Chaos predates the demon world but when the darkness came into existence it became the container of chaos. Chaos is either inside or melted together with the demon world (depending if you use container or crucible but IIRC container is the best translation) but the point is the same, the demon world now has chaos within it.

It seems you haven't fully read the OP when you wrote this, since the crucible of chaos statement has not been ignored and was accounted for.

I also addressed the point about demon souls and some human souls going to the Demon World after death.

I encourage you to read about my reply to these points in the OP, and return with feedback.

Not only those killed by demons, we are told explicitly that demons manages souls period, same demon who is stated to be in charge of managing and controlling the residents of hell.

If this isn't explicit enough that all souls end in hell regardless if they were killed by demons or not then idk wtf to tell you.

The Hell Vanguards obviously aren't managing all the souls of the dead, since they aren't managing the souls of sinners.
They are also stated to be feared, period, by the residents of the netherworld, and that they controls, period, the residents of hell. If this isn't explicit enough to show that they scales above Mundus and Argosax and Abigail, then I don't know what to tell you.

Do you have any proof that souls end up somewhere else? Because that smells heavily of headcanon when every piece of information explicitly says they end up in hell.

The chaos shit was already tackled as Chaos is in/with the demon world.

Not all souls, but generally speaking.
But yes, evidence is provided through this PoC scan:

The Soul It continues to hide mysteries that humans and demons don't understand, mysteries but every human has such. A basic nine-dimensional form, generally speaking, it originates from and returns to a higher dimension beyond the Eightfold Path. It not only contains the mind and memory, but also contains all the information of the body and its ancestors since ancient times

I acknowledge that some human souls do end up in hell.

This is basically the same as before. The demon world gave form to abstract beings when it came into existence as stated in the scans but as the manga says the demon world became a container of chaos.

Yes, they were explicitly separated before the demon world existed, now though its just part of the infinite darkness.

Also do you know why those stones are rare? Because they are found by humans in the human world, a place that has nothing to do with the darkness or the chaos it contains.

Completely different arguments, so why would you say it is the same as before?

So to go through your position:

1. The Primordial Chaos existed when the Demon World did not.
2. The Demon World got created.
3. Now the Primordial Chaos is now merely a part of the Demon World.

This doesn't seem to follow. Can you elaborate on this and provide evidence?

Then why weren't the boundary stones found by demons, and humans with lesser separation from the Demon World, before the light split the world in half?

 

[RedReaper616]

The Hell Vanguards obviously aren't managing all the souls of the dead, since they aren't managing the souls of sinners.
They are also stated to be feared, period, by the residents of the netherworld, and that they controls, period, the residents of hell. If this isn't explicit enough to show that they scales above Mundus and Argosax and Abigail, then I don't know what to tell you.

Uh, no. Mundus and Argosax are specifically the biggest bads in Hell, Demon King level threats. Reality warping super-Demons worshipped and revered as Gods who are functionally able to manipulate the cosmology itself for realm merging and splitting.

In NO WORLD is a Hell Vanguard above anything except the lowest of low. Especially considering Vergil one shots one in 3, but a stronger Dante with his father's sword could only BARELY defeat Mundus.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

While it's true that poc made that statement it's considered outlier against many infinite/endless statements throughout the franchise so one against like 4 or 5 so just one breaking statement shouldn't be taken as the definitive one especially if it was inconsistent in the series

An outlier is defined as something completely and irreconcilably inconsistent.
However, I provided a reconciliation, which happened to result in a downgrade.

Endless statements are considered infinite in a case-by-case basis. In this case, we just shouldn't consider them infinite.

Yea because in other fictional stories they depict mirror dimensions as to be a dimension of it's own like mirror master as an example where his mirror dimension is like void however the mirror dimension is in dmc it's meant to be the reflection of the human world but everything in reverse it's even called the reflected world as again it's a copy of the human world but everything in reverse

There is no size statement, so we shouldn't make a high-end assumption.

Yes you're right it's a portal to a different space-time since again it's flow of time is different

We can argue that the Demon World has areas with variable flows of time (ex. flowers in one area withering quickly, while nearby flowers in other areas not withering), while still qualifying as a single space-time continuum.

Again it's one statement that only got used once against multiple infinite statements across dmc related media as it's not only used in the games but also in the manga,novel,guide, etc and even on how when we used the raw it's still use the the same words

Also a supporting evidence is that in dmc1 brady guide stated that mundus wanted to take over verbatim a universe and nobody give me "maybe they referring mundus wanting to rule both the demon realm and the human world"because firstly mundus was already ruling over the demon realm and the page itself states "that sparda wanted to stop the attempt of the dark emperor to take over the universe" and sparda couldn't care less of the demon realm so both narratively and contextually it's only referring to the human world

I agree that Mundus was trying to take over the universe, and that the known universe is just the Demon World and Human World.
The response above about outliers applies here.

 

[KLOL506]

Endless statements are considered infinite in a case-by-case basis. In this case, we just shouldn't consider them infinite.

Ah yes, the same endless =/= infinite bullcrap all over again.

 

[RedReaper616]

An outlier is defined as something completely and irreconcilably inconsistent.
However, I provided a reconciliation, which happened to result in a downgrade.

Endless statements are considered infinite in a case-by-case basis. In this case, we just shouldn't consider them infinite.

Except you haven't reconciled the statements? Your assumption relies on the time of description, as far as I can tell, and that's not valid when both are talking about the birth of the universe at that specific moment. Further, the PoC scan words it as if the universe split itself off the Demon World autonomously, but as we've already gone over exhaustively, Pluto was the one to split the realms apart.

Lastly, an outlier is a figure or piece of data that sits outside of the normal consistent findings of a given investigation. In this case, the Demon World's size versus the Human World's. It is far more consistent for the DW to be called infinite in size than for it to be equal to the Human World in size. As such, yeah, it WOULD be an outlier.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

The Demon World IS Hell, so I'm lost as to what the scans are attempting to prove. And in said link, it says they attack you, guilty OR innocent, so the new question is how does this prove any redundancy if your scan literally states they do X, but also do Y as often for reasons unrelated to X? It should ALSO be noted that Souls automatically going to Hell after death was a concept that was primarily founded in DMC3, because whilst Demons have been humans who have went to Hell, this is never been explicitly tied as an automatic journey to the Demon World like it was in the third entry of the series. It kinda just was a thing that was mentioned to happen occasionally, like the Sargasso entry. So them stating it isn't redundant anyway, because this is where the idea of the Demon World genuinely being where Souls went to after death was established.

You seem to have missed the point, as nothing is hinged on implying that the Demon World is not hell.

The scans say that they normally manage/torture souls that were sent to hell for specific sins. But now they have been summoned in the Human World to attack innocent people.
If it is highlighted that some demons send humans souls to the underworld, and that human souls get sent to hell for committing sins, then it is redundant if the souls of many thousands of human souls who die naturally daily automatically get sent to the Underworld.

PoC gave us an other location where souls go to; Primordial Chaos. So we aren't justified to claim that all human souls go to the Demon World automatically.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

1- Why not make a simple attempt at harmonizing both scans?

The Black Horned Demon God and then Sparda separated via. seals.
And then the light being independent split the world in half.

The world was split in two via. separation.
Then the light managed to split the world in half.

No need to dismiss scans.

2- The mirror world being an entrance doesn't tell us about its size, or that it is a Low 2-C construct.

3- Also translated as "Endlessly stretching". Any pocket dimension would be beyond the average human's understanding.
There is also the statement from Kamiya that Mundus' dimension is the same size as the universe of this world, so we can't pull off a claim that it is not finite.

4- I have made no attempt to remove Dante's scaling from Sparda.

1. Because its wrong, not only did pluto separated them by trusting with his spear but sparda did it with his sword and Pluto put a veil between the worlds while sparda put a seal to prevent demons from crossing over.

Again the light did not do shit as explained several times.

The world was split in two via. separation.
Then the light managed to split the world in half.

This is just plain dumb and corroborated by absolutely nothing. The world wasn't separated twice during its creation.

2. Explained that to Mad Dog

3. Also pointed that to mad dog. Mundus farted a universe plain and simple, endlessly stretching is the same as infinitely expanding. Kamiya only said "universe" and we don't even accept his twits anymore, that's why we have 3 guides stating Mundus created an infinitely expanding universe.

4. It was meant to show how stupid of a thread this is

It managed to split the world in half in the current DMC cosmology, apparently. Nothing you mentioned here is new to anyone who read the OP and explanation blog, nor does it challenge the scan that the light split the world in half.

It's almost like you ignored everything I said. The light did not split the world, the manga specifically states that a demon god came from the darkness and did it, not the light.

How does being a mirror dimension tell us about its size? As stated, mirror dimensions in fiction can be much smaller than what they are reflecting, no reason to assume full size without evidence.
Being a mirror world doesn't inherently make it a window in time and space or the entrance to the demon world. It just coincidently happened to be so.

Explained above

Thanks to the added context, we know that we should not interpret endless statements to mean infinite; just extremely large.

This way we can avert contradiction, and reconcile all scans.
We don't automatically assume statements about endless size to mean literally infinite; it is a case-by-case thing that depends on the context. The most consistent approach here is that they do not mean literally infinite or literally not finite.

...You can't be actually serious, right?

in·fi·nite
/ˈinfənət/
https://www.google.com/search?clien...2ahUKEwib1KWI7KD9AhUZRDABHblgD9wQ3eEDegQICBAH
adjective

1. limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.


I honestly can stop here. You have proven to not only not know what infinite means but have 0 knowledge of the verse you are trying to downgrade.

It seems you haven't fully read the OP when you wrote this, since the crucible of chaos statement has not been ignored and was accounted for.

I also addressed the point about demon souls and some human souls going to the Demon World after death.

I encourage you to read about my reply to these points in the OP, and return with feedback.

And I countered your points with actual scans and statements proving mine.

You have done literally nothing but pull headcanon and call it a day

The Hell Vanguards obviously aren't managing all the souls of the dead, since they aren't managing the souls of sinners.
They are also stated to be feared, period, by the residents of the netherworld, and that they controls, period, the residents of hell. If this isn't explicit enough to show that they scales above Mundus and Argosax and Abigail, then I don't know what to tell you.

The Hell Vanguards obviously aren't managing all the souls of the dead

we are told explicitly that demons manages dead souls

bruh

You can't be seriously thinking that because the residents of hell fear this thing it means it scales above god tiers?

Not all souls, but generally speaking.
But yes, evidence is provided through this PoC scan:

The Soul It continues to hide mysteries that humans and demons don't understand, mysteries but every human has such. A basic nine-dimensional form, generally speaking, it originates from and returns to a higher dimension beyond the Eightfold Path. It not only contains the mind and memory, but also contains all the information of the body and its ancestors since ancient times

I acknowledge that some human souls do end up in hell.

Ah yes, the same scan that doesn't debunk anything is your proof. Amazing.

Completely different arguments, so why would you say it is the same as before?

So to go through your position:

1. The Primordial Chaos existed when the Demon World did not.
2. The Demon World got created.
3. Now the Primordial Chaos is now merely a part of the Demon World.

This doesn't seem to follow. Can you elaborate on this and provide evidence?

Then why weren't the boundary stones found by demons, and humans with lesser separation from the Demon World, before the light split the world in half?

It is exactly the same argument. Demons being born in the demon world doesn't debunk anything since now the demon world has chaos within it.

Chaos predates everything. Darkness came into existence. Now Darkness contains the chaos.

If you fail to understand something as simple as that then it isn't my problem.

What is even this question? What humans are going to go around looking for stones when their reality is being rent asunder time and time again and countless of their kin are dying?

 

[KLOL506]

Yeah no this screams of petty semantics regarding "endless" and "boundless" and whatnot, and a repeat of arguments I have seen before coming full circle regarding Chaos and Darkness and the Demon World. I disagree with this thread for Tony's reasons, and frankly speaking, this is getting highly repetitive.

 

[KLOL506]

The Hell Vanguards obviously aren't managing all the souls of the dead, since they aren't managing the souls of sinners.
They are also stated to be feared, period, by the residents of the netherworld, and that they controls, period, the residents of hell. If this isn't explicit enough to show that they scales above Mundus and Argosax and Abigail, then I don't know what to tell you.

BROTHER

HELL VANGUARDS ARE FODDER.

Vergil one-shotted them in DMC3. You can't be serious. "Hell Vanguards > Demon Kings" is as comically bad as saying "Draugr > Greek Pantheon"

 

[Planck69]

Honestly, Toni's arguments are more convincing to me. Count me as disagree.

 

[RedReaper616]

You seem to have missed the point, as nothing is hinged on implying that the Demon World is not hell.

The scans say that they normally manage/torture souls that were sent to hell for specific sins. But now they have been summoned in the Human World to attack innocent people.
If it is highlighted that some demons send humans souls to the underworld, and that human souls get sent to hell for committing sins, then it is redundant if the souls of many thousands of human souls who die naturally daily automatically get sent to the Underworld.

PoC gave us an other location where souls go to; Primordial Chaos. So we aren't justified to claim that all human souls go to the Demon World automatically.

But...that doesn't make sense?

Also, I want to point out that the PC is the original formation of the World. Via your logic, Souls wouldn't go anywhere because the Original World no longer exists.

Also, we know for a fact Human Souls are sent to the DW. At best you can headcanon an after, but that's speculation, not fact.

 

[Deadguy]

An outlier is defined as something completely and irreconcilably inconsistent.
However, I provided a reconciliation, which happened to result in a downgrade.

Which is? All I'm seeing is that one poc statement and that it

Endless statements are considered infinite in a case-by-case basis. In this case, we just shouldn't consider them infinite.

Yea what if I told you that both are used in the series?besides it doesn't matter honestly given how much they got used in the series

There is no size statement, so we shouldn't make a high-end assumption

If it being the exact image of the human world and stated to be it's exact reflection doesn't give an indicative size then I don't know what will

We can argue that the Demon World has areas with variable flows of time (ex. flowers in one area withering quickly, while nearby flowers in other areas not withering), while still qualifying as a single space-time continuum.

Yeeaaa that's not how it works nor it is accepted like this in the wiki but I will want hear your elaboration on why is still is a single space-time

I agree that Mundus was trying to take over the universe, and that the known universe is just the Demon World and Human World.

Did you read the scan or read the whole explanation because it seems you missed a very important aspect of it because I literally tackled that issue which is that the scan I posted ISN'T referring to the demon realm and the human realm as it's contextually and narratively makes no sense so read it again and give me an actual response not "it's meaning the demon world and the human world"

 

[Fixxed]

One question

Is the split in half statement is literall, the entire demon world is split in half??

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

One question

Is the split in half statement is literall, the entire demon world is split in half??

yeah, it was as if Pluto had separated a branch from a tree

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Except you haven't reconciled the statements? Your assumption relies on the time of description, as far as I can tell, and that's not valid when both are talking about the birth of the universe at that specific moment. Further, the PoC scan words it as if the universe split itself off the Demon World autonomously, but as we've already gone over exhaustively, Pluto was the one to split the realms apart.

Lastly, an outlier is a figure or piece of data that sits outside of the normal consistent findings of a given investigation. In this case, the Demon World's size versus the Human World's. It is far more consistent for the DW to be called infinite in size than for it to be equal to the Human World in size. As such, yeah, it WOULD be an outlier.

The PoC scan is talking about the birth of the universe? Is there evidence for this?
And how is a thin ray/line of light supposed to split the world in half, in your view?

The scan says that the light split the world in half. Not that it autonomously split itself from the Demon World. There is no contradiction with the Black Horned Demon God causing the separation between the Demon World and Human World, and then as a side effect the light ends up splitting the world in half.

I am taking a similar approach with how the wiki instructs we handle outliers in regards to powerscaling:

An Outlier is an event or incident that is considered to be completely and irreconcilably inconsistent with a character, entity, group, or series' normal displayed level of power. Outliers are often regarded as unusable in forums debates. However, efforts should be made to try to reconcile outliers with other canon information, and only very extreme examples should be classed as completely unusable.

In which case, unless complete and irreconcilable inconsistency exist, it wouldn't be a real outlier, and we should seek reconcilation instead of throwing away scans.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

One question

Is the split in half statement is literall, the entire demon world is split in half??

If you ignore everything else yes

 

[Fixxed]

yeah, it was as if Pluto had separated a branch from a tree

If you ignore everything else yes

What the context behind that?

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

In which case, unless complete and irreconcilable inconsistency exist, it wouldn't be a real outlier, and we should seek reconcilation instead of throwing away scans.

Except in this case it can't work because it severely contradicts several other sources.

Again is like if someone was trying to use the DMC5 scan saying SDT Dante is on sparda's level when in older materials he has killed stronger foes or sparda himself

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

What the context behind that?

Explain in detail what you mean cuz I don't think I understand

 

[Robo432343]

he wanna know all dat context
bro wants to know the whole story of DMC

 

[Fixxed]

Explain in detail what you mean cuz I don't think I understand

Context about mortal world that can split demon world in half, it is just metaphor or in literall meaning

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Context about mortal world that can split demon world in half, it is just metaphor or in literall meaning

I think OP is using it literal.

The actual context of the whole thing is here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/devil-may-cry-the-pluto-farce.120970/#post-3982250

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

BROTHER

HELL VANGUARDS ARE FODDER.

Vergil one-shotted them in DMC3. You can't be serious. "Hell Vanguards > Demon Kings" is as comically bad as saying "Draugr > Greek Pantheon"

I was showing the absurdity of taking explicit statements while ignoring context, to counter Tony's argument.

My position isn't that Hell Vanguards aren't fodders.

 

[RedReaper616]

The PoC scan is talking about the birth of the universe? Is there evidence for this?
And how is a thin ray/line of light supposed to split the world in half, in your view?

…
Until the “FIRST LIGHT,” split “THE WORLD,” in half…full of power from the “ORIGINAL CHAOS.” I’m sorry, I feel like the statement itself is self-explanatory. It’s referencing the Original Chaos—The Primordial World. Which means that the split, must mean something to do with the birth and/or separation of the Universe from the Demonic Realm, as well as the light being a reference to the DMC3 Manga, which refers to the Human World ITSELF as the Light.

The scan says that the light split the world in half. Not that it autonomously split itself from the Demon World. There is no contradiction with the Black Horned Demon God causing the separation between the Demon World and Human World, and then as a side effect the light ends up splitting the world in half.

“The FIRST LIGHT that split the World in Half.”

Uh…what? Unless you assume the Light is Pluto himself because he has the one light beam attack, there is DEFINITELY a contradiction here.

I am taking a similar approach with how the wiki instructs we handle outliers in regards to powerscaling:

An Outlier is an event or incident that is considered to be completely and irreconcilably inconsistent with a character, entity, group, or series' normal displayed level of power. Outliers are often regarded as unusable in forums debates. However, efforts should be made to try to reconcile outliers with other canon information, and only very extreme examples should be classed as completely unusable.

In which case, unless complete and irreconcilable inconsistency exist, it wouldn't be a real outlier, and we should seek reconcilation instead of throwing away scans.

There IS an irreconcilable inconsistency, though. You have 5-7 statements saying the Demon World is infinite in size, and ONE saying the world half. Clearly, the ONE is the outlier, not the 5-7.

 

[Deadguy]

The PoC scan is talking about the birth of the universe? Is there evidence for this?
And how is a thin ray/line of light supposed to split the world in half, in your view?

The scan says that the light split the world in half. Not that it autonomously split itself from the Demon World. There is no contradiction with the Black Horned Demon God causing the separation between the Demon World and Human World, and then as a side effect the light ends up splitting the world in half.

I am taking a similar approach with how the wiki instructs we handle outliers in regards to powerscaling:

An Outlier is an event or incident that is considered to be completely and irreconcilably inconsistent with a character, entity, group, or series' normal displayed level of power. Outliers are often regarded as unusable in forums debates. However, efforts should be made to try to reconcile outliers with other canon information, and only very extreme examples should be classed as completely unusable.

In which case, unless complete and irreconcilable inconsistency exist, it wouldn't be a real outlier, and we should seek reconcilation instead of throwing away scans.

"Irreconcilable inconsistent" take it as you will lol