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Devil May Cry: Downgrade's Awakening (Yes, from Tier 1)

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Can @KLOL506 or other staff tag @Ultima_Reality and @DontTalkDT regarding this question about Tier 1:
Would Demon World have qualitative superiority on the Human World due to size difference in the case of them having equal tiers?

As in the Demon World is infinitely larger, but the Human World is capable of splitting the Demon World in half despite its finite size.

Sevil Natas said:
a hyperbole is only applicable when a claim of a feat made by a character is completely out of the verses league. for example if somebody says "I can destroy the entire universe" once in a verse where the best feats are tier 6/5 then that is a hyperbole. a hyperbole doesnt magically deal with inconsistencies in the lore nor does it make anything compatible. it is simply used for when a guy says he can do something that's so beyond the capabilities of the verse he's in. that it simply isnt reliable.

this is a completely different case. this is a matter of fact debate. since the statements themselves come from the source material. so there will be contradictions if you say that the infinite statements are wrong.

"split in half" again could just be a figure of speech it doesnt have to be literal. and that is the only interpretation that leads to no contradictions. remember there are multiple statements infinite statements but there's also alot more statements that suggest the demon world is bigger than the human world is. DMC 3 manga one is one of them. each one of those contradicts your statement aswell
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In their essence a hyperbole is an exaggeration of the actual truth of the matter. Statements from the narrator are more reliable than characters, but your claim that they are always a matter of a fact and can't make use of hyperboles (including one of the most common ones) is simply wrong. We really don't need to search hard to find examples. Bad argument.

So we have two options:

1- We consider the "light split the world in half" statement a figure of speech which implies Tier 1-C.
2- We consider multiple infinite/endless statements figure of speech which implies Tier 2-C.

Higher tiers requires higher standards of evidence. Tier 1 shouldn't warrant more than a possibly if it is this speculative.

Sevil Natas said:
what?
first of all. there isnt any statements that contradict the information about the soul.
secondly. "providing new information about the cosmology" isnt what that statement is even for. it's talking about the chaos stones specifically. the stuff before it is just to provide context to that
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There isn't anything inherently contradictory with the light splitting the world in half. We just need to shift our understanding of the cosmology, which PoC did in other aspects.

The cosmology is relevant to the lore of the chaos stones.
 
ShadowWhoWalks said:
Can @KLOL506 or other staff tag @Ultima_Reality and @DontTalkDT regarding this question about Tier 1:
Would Demon World have qualitative superiority on the Human World due to size difference in the case of them having equal tiers?

As in the Demon World is infinitely larger, but the Human World is capable of splitting the Demon World in half despite its finite size.
Click to expand...
I'm going to be blunt, you're taking that PoC scan to mean something it doesn't mean, and you've gone completely off-course, so I'd suggest you drop this scan entirely, because it's not going to get you anywhere.

ShadowWhoWalks said:
In their essence a hyperbole is an exaggeration of the actual truth of the matter. Statements from the narrator are more reliable than characters, but your claim that they are always a matter of a fact and can't make use of hyperboles (including one of the most common ones) is simply wrong. We really don't need to search hard to find examples. Bad argument.
Click to expand...
And you've not answered the man's main questions.

ShadowWhoWalks said:
So we have two options:

1- We consider the "light split the world in half" statement a figure of speech which implies Tier 1-C.
Click to expand...
It's a figure of speech in essence that it's a super-shortened version of the real deal.

ShadowWhoWalks said:
2- We consider multiple infinite/endless statements figure of speech which implies Tier 2-C.
Click to expand...
Nah, out of the question. Those statements are literal as can be because they're explicitly referring to the DW's size.

ShadowWhoWalks said:
There isn't anything inherently contradictory with the light splitting the world in half. We just need to shift our understanding of the cosmology, which PoC did in other aspects.
Click to expand...
There is nothing to shift here because you are needlessly overcomplicating a simple matter into something it is not. Stop making a mountain out of a molehill.

ShadowWhoWalks said:
The cosmology is relevant to the lore of the chaos stones.
Click to expand...
Not really, no.
 
So going over this thread, a lot of it amounts to speculation and Headcanon.

The Original Chaos/World is not the Primordial Chaos/World, according to you, despite the fact they describe the same thing and the Original World is what came before the split, which is why Arius said that the HW merging with the DW is “reverting it to the original state, everything that once belonged to the Demons will be so again!”

The first light isn’t referring to the birth of the universe, according to you, but the “light” of the Original Chaos IS the universe, thus the “FIRST LIGHT,” must mean that it is the START of it.

This is also contradicted by other things in your thread, like saying the HW split the DW in half, but didn’t get separated. That would mean, then, it’s referring to the birth of the Universe. Yet you say no.

You say you’re accounting for Pluto, but ignoring how it never refers to Pluto when referencing the split. And this IS the splitting of the Human World from the Demon World, as it literally clarified these Stones (which only formed from the split of the Worlds), have the power of the Original Chaos.

You say the 5-7 statements are outlier, and the one statement is what we should be listening to, but that’s not how outliers work. Outliers are data that are unnatural/inconsistent with the data set. The “half,” IS what is inconsistent, not the 5-7 Statements. To say otherwise is a faulty interpretation. Headcanon.

You say that we have no definitive proof that the Souls end in the DW, but we have several scans, from the Sins, to the Vanguard, to even other entries that re-contexualized by the Vanguard and Sins statements, like Malphas, Sargasso, etc. instead the Souls end up in the Demon World. But you say the Primordial Chaos. But the Primordial Chaos doesn’t exist. It’s the Worlds conjoined. Thus, Souls would go nowhere. Secondly, the DMC3 Manga says the Primordial Chaos (The Darkness) became the home of Demons, so that doesn’t make sense anyway. And lastly, to assume they go anywhere after their automatic travel to the Demon Realm is Headcanon. There’s no substantial evidence to say they go anywhere after the Demon Realm, because Souls have, since DMC3, historically gone to the Demon Realm after death. Supposedly, you’ve accounted for that.

You’ve supposedly accounted for everything.

Except all of your arguments rely on ignoring evidence, calling the majority evidence outliers compared to an actual outlier, regarding the statements on Soul travel to the Underworld as invalid, and making up extraneous explanations to things we already have the answer to with empirical evidence by using a data set that only indirectly contradicts established lore, and then saying that all the ways this doesn’t make sense is us trying to not reconcile the data, when in reality it’s called looking at evidence and picking the consistent option that needs less assumptions.

Unfortunately, for you anyway, that consistent option is not offered by you, nor was it offered by Mad_Dog, or anyone else prior.
 
alright let's do this. first of all "a basic 9 dimensional form" is pretty much describing its shape or geometry. that is infact an indication of higher dimensionality. and i dont know the context of these "examples" you bring up, so please instead of ranting, back them up with their sources and the exact reasons of why there were denied. also there doesnt need to be evidence of qualitative superiority for something to be considered Higher dimensional. i'll get to this later second. "a higher dimension beyond the eightfold path" phrase isnt meaningless. it describes the place of where souls originate from. "the eightfold path" could mean anything in the context of this verse. as Buddhist terms in DMC are often used to name objects. take the samsara in DMC 3 for example. samsara is the cycle of life & death buddhism yet in DMC it is a key needed to advance in a mission (nirvana is also another example which was mentioned above). the eightfold path could be a realm or a series of realms. that fits with how it is described in this statement. what we care about here however is the "higher dimension" as it's the place where these souls originate from. so we know that they have a 9 dimensional shape or a form. which means they have 9 coordinate spaces and that they originate from a higher dimension. the statement couldnt be anymore clear in that translation. and yeah i know that isnt enough to qualify for tier 1 thats literally the reason why not everyone with soul manip scales to 1-C. what you dont understand is. the fact that just because something being referred to as higher dimensional doesnt qualify for tier 1 off the bat doesn't mean it isnt higher dimensional or it's fake higher dimensional.

saying that it's describing it's shape or geometry is just an assumption, a single 9- dimensional statement doesn't back that up without further elaboration. And yes you do need evidence of qualitative superiority especially for cases like this, otherwise any verse that has a 10-d statement would automatically be 1-C.



Afaik, you need an abundance of proof for such said statements that don't even go deep into the said mechanics. The only literal thing thats said is 9-Dimensional form, thats it.



"he eightfold path could be a realm or a series of realms. that fits with how it is described in this statement. what we care about here however is the "higher dimension" as it's the place where these souls originate from" This doesn't prove that it's 9-D nor does it support dimensionality in any way, what is the eightfold path even supposed to mean? do they elaborate further in DMC itself or are you just speculating "could be a realm" the mention / statement of a "higher dimension" is yet again not proof at all idk even why it's brought up as an argument without any further elaboration or proof. just some flowery language.



prove that they have 9 coordinate spaces, except for a "9-dimensional form" statement" show the 9-dimensional axis in DMC please i fail to see it anywhere except for the reliance on one single 9-D statement and a "higher dimension" statement which is literally the defintion of "it's higher dimensional trust me bro"
 
Hellscream said:
alright let's do this. first of all "a basic 9 dimensional form" is pretty much describing its shape or geometry. that is infact an indication of higher dimensionality. and i dont know the context of these "examples" you bring up, so please instead of ranting, back them up with their sources and the exact reasons of why there were denied. also there doesnt need to be evidence of qualitative superiority for something to be considered Higher dimensional. i'll get to this later second. "a higher dimension beyond the eightfold path" phrase isnt meaningless. it describes the place of where souls originate from. "the eightfold path" could mean anything in the context of this verse. as Buddhist terms in DMC are often used to name objects. take the samsara in DMC 3 for example. samsara is the cycle of life & death buddhism yet in DMC it is a key needed to advance in a mission (nirvana is also another example which was mentioned above). the eightfold path could be a realm or a series of realms. that fits with how it is described in this statement. what we care about here however is the "higher dimension" as it's the place where these souls originate from. so we know that they have a 9 dimensional shape or a form. which means they have 9 coordinate spaces and that they originate from a higher dimension. the statement couldnt be anymore clear in that translation. and yeah i know that isnt enough to qualify for tier 1 thats literally the reason why not everyone with soul manip scales to 1-C. what you dont understand is. the fact that just because something being referred to as higher dimensional doesnt qualify for tier 1 off the bat doesn't mean it isnt higher dimensional or it's fake higher dimensional.

saying that it's describing it's shape or geometry is just an assumption, a single 9- dimensional statement doesn't back that up without further elaboration. And yes you do need evidence of qualitative superiority especially for cases like this, otherwise any verse that has a 10-d statement would automatically be 1-C.



Afaik, you need an abundance of proof for such said statements that don't even go deep into the said mechanics. The only literal thing thats said is 9-Dimensional form, thats it.



"he eightfold path could be a realm or a series of realms. that fits with how it is described in this statement. what we care about here however is the "higher dimension" as it's the place where these souls originate from" This doesn't prove that it's 9-D nor does it support dimensionality in any way, what is the eightfold path even supposed to mean? do they elaborate further in DMC itself or are you just speculating "could be a realm" the mention / statement of a "higher dimension" is yet again not proof at all idk even why it's brought up as an argument without any further elaboration or proof. just some flowery language.



prove that they have 9 coordinate spaces, except for a "9-dimensional form" statement" show the 9-dimensional axis in DMC please i fail to see it anywhere except for the reliance on one single 9-D statement and a "higher dimension" statement which is literally the defintion of "it's higher dimensional trust me bro"
Click to expand...
You're beating a dead horse m8. This has already been debunked countless times by both Deadguy, Ovens and RedReaper.
 
KLOL506 said:
Also read the Tiering FAQ to know why qualitative superiority isn't the only way to get Tier 1.
Click to expand...
I've noticed a trend of people seeing "qualitative superiority" and misconstrued it massively.

By proving that the mathematical dimensions of an entire realm are not compact, you've already proven the superiority necessary for whatever level of Tier 1 is being applied.

Statements of transcendence and ontological superiority are mainly needed for higher planes or levels of existence for Tier 1.
 
ShadowWhoWalks said:
In their essence a hyperbole is an exaggeration of the actual truth of the matter. Statements from the narrator are more reliable than characters, but your claim that they are always a matter of a fact and can't make use of hyperboles (including one of the most common ones) is simply wrong. We really don't need to search hard to find examples. Bad argument.
Click to expand...
and where's the exaggeration here? considering it's been stated. multiple times, by multiple narrators. how or why does that not take precedent over 1 comment in a statement that wasn't even talking about the cosmology?
ShadowWhoWalks said:
So we have two options:

1- We consider the "light split the world in half" statement a figure of speech which implies Tier 1-C.
2- We consider multiple infinite/endless statements figure of speech which implies Tier 2-C.

Higher tiers requires higher standards of evidence. Tier 1 shouldn't warrant more than a possibly if it is this speculative.
Click to expand...
it aint "speculative" if we know it's flat out not true. why does the mirror world (an exact replica of the human world) exists inside the demon world if they are 2 halves? and why does the manga describe the human world as spec of light while the demon world an unending darkness if they are 2 halves? why does PoC, the game which your debunk scan comes from, itself calls the demon world infinite in another similar statement? how was the demon world going to consume the human world in DMC2 if they are 2 halves? and even if that statement was literal. that wouldnt discount infinite DW, it would make the human world infinite instead. in which case and i hate to break this you. we still keep tier 1. because again. demon world would still be 9D & Infinite which would still qualify.
ShadowWhoWalks said:
There isn't anything inherently contradictory with the light splitting the world in half. We just need to shift our understanding of the cosmology, which PoC did in other aspects.
Click to expand...
okay, explain everything i said above then if it aint contradictory
 
People should note that Ultima and DontTalkDT aren't that interested in these sorts of threads anymore so delaying a consensus for them might unnecessarily drag this out either way.


Also, it's getting kinda dumb that every time one is challenged in their view of Tier 1 for a setting, they cop out with "Let's call Ultima". An entire site relying on two admittedly capable and knowledgeable people is silly.
 
Planck69 said:
I've noticed a trend of people seeing "qualitative superiority" and misconstrued it massively.

By proving that the mathematical dimensions of an entire realm are not compact, you've already proven the superiority necessary for whatever level of Tier 1 is being applied.

Statements of transcendence and ontological superiority are mainly needed for higher planes or levels of existence for Tier 1.
Click to expand...
One notable misconception that has been observed pertains to qualitative superiority, whereby it is mistakenly construed as a method in and of itself, when in actuality it serves as a precondition rather than a distinct approach.
 
Except for that no one in the thread didn't even address it, so what are you all even saying i literally went through the entire thread
it wasn't even properly argued the only arguments that were being made were yet again, about the darkness being split in half.
 
Hellscream said:
Except for that no one in the thread didn't even address it, so what are you all even saying i literally went through the entire thread
it wasn't even properly argued the only arguments that were being made were yet again, about the darkness being split in half.
Click to expand...
You might wanna keep scrolling the previous threads and this thread thoroughly yet again then.
 
Hellscream said:
Except for that no one in the thread didn't even address it, so what are you all even saying i literally went through the entire thread
it wasn't even properly argued the only arguments that were being made were yet again, about the darkness being split in half.
Click to expand...
Reiner said:
I think Demon world is infinite is valid but, is the arguement for low 1C is that it's infinite in size compared to human world which is finite inside it? I mean... Is it any different than what 2A is? Just checking things not against or with anything.
Click to expand...
Robo said:
bro where did you get low 1-c from
demon world is 9D
Click to expand...
Reiner said:
Fine then.
Click to expand...
It was argued, I brought it up and then saw that demon World has been stated to be 9D and it being not compactified by being infinite compared to human world proves the necessities.
 
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