Devil May Cry: Downgrade's Awakening (Yes, from Tier 1)

[KLOL506]

So the reference in the PoC statement is short.
Are you suggesting that we should expect it to be vague, or that we should expect it to contain errors?
A similar statement could've been made without the 'in half' part, so it isn't a matter of being vague.

It's a matter of keeping things short to keep out the slog. That simple. You want the not-simple story? Read the manga and read the part about Pluto. Not hard to grasp.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

You forgot one crucial element, the Human World's inhabitants.

Stretching what the scan says when it is referencing the Human World cosmology.

Normal humans are weak, so are you implying that Dante or Vergil have historically launched a widespread attack against the cosmology before the events of Devil May Cry 3?

This isn't how any of this works. Context is always king here. How simple or different the explanations are don't amount to jackshit without context.

But given that you'd ignore all of it anyway, I can understand why you would ask such an asinine question in this thread.

Ironic that you missed that the context of problem-solving principles, so a charitable reading would read the implicit 'while lacking evidence for either explanation'.

To rephrase, do you agree that in general we should favor the interpretation with the least amount of assumptions?

There's no speculation to be had here because everything we need is in the source material itself. You're just nitpicking and cherrypicking just for the hell of it.

But a contradiction manifests when light was shed on a part of the source material that wasn't accounted for.
So we should ignore the scan, otherwise we are nitpicking and cherrypicking?

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Oh?
Then why do you keep harping on Light splitting Darkness in half? It clearly did perform a feat, sentient or not, as per your arguements. Then it should be Tiered.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too, you say HW split DW in half and simultaneously say this shouldn't be possible and shouldn't be Tiered. That's glaring contradiction in your intent. Which at this point is just coming off as disingenuous.

And we do give non sentient object tiers.

I am saying that it is 100% possible if the Demon World isn't infinite, in which case it is not a Tier 1-C feat, though it can be tiered.

We shouldn't assume that the Human World is infinite without good evidence just to give the verse Tier 1.

 

[Robo432343]

I am saying that it is 100% possible if the Demon World isn't infinite, in which case it is not a Tier 1-C feat, though it can be tiered.

We shouldn't assume that the Human World is infinite without good evidence just to give the verse Tier 1.

Demon world is infinite tho
do you want more proof

 

[KLOL506]

Stretching what the scan says when it is referencing the Human World cosmology.

Normal humans are weak, so are you implying that Dante or Vergil have historically launched a widespread attack against the cosmology before the events of Devil May Cry 3?

You're implying that only normal humans emerged and caused turmoil? Because that's one hell of a leap in logic.

Ironic that you missed that the context of problem-solving principles, so a charitable reading would read the implicit 'while lacking evidence for either explanation'.

There is nothing to solve here because you're the one asking all these baseless questions which we've answered over and over again to the point of repetition.

To rephrase, do you agree that in general we should favor the interpretation with the least amount of assumptions?

This is such a reductive way of taking interpretations without outside context, I'm honestly baffled as to how you've not seen this as being downright disingenuous after everything we've told you.

But a contradiction manifests when light was shed on a part of the source material that wasn't accounted for.
So we should ignore the scan, otherwise we are nitpicking and cherrypicking?

Or maybe, the scan doesn't tell us the full picture and doesn't mean what you think it means. But go off, I suppose.

I am saying that it is 100% possible if the Demon World isn't infinite.

Except, it is infinite. Or are you just being blatantly ignorant of the source material?

We shouldn't assume that the Human World is infinite without good evidence just to give the verse Tier 1.

What part of "what does size have to do with AP" did you not get?

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

It's a matter of keeping things short to keep out the slog. That simple. You want the not-simple story? Read the manga and read the part about Pluto. Not hard to grasp.

So why didn't the writers of PoC keep things even shorter, and keep out more slog, by not writing "in half"?

Separating a tiny piece of light in infinite darkness does not result in splitting the world in half; this is literally impossible. So the full story is not compatible with the PoC statement.
I already described what Pluto did in the OP; already read the part before starting the thread.

 

[Sevil Natas]

so are we taking all of the lore about the DW and throwing it away. because of a single statement that could just be a figure of speech? endless always means infinite. thats quite literally the word that defines what it means to be infinite in the first place.

and btw. it probably doesnt even have to be infinitely sized. just as large the observable universe to qualify for tier 1. having HDE + being fully sized(universally sized in context) qualifies according to the FAQ

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I am saying that it is 100% possible if the Demon World isn't infinite, in which case it is not a Tier 1-C feat, though it can be tiered.

I am not going to beat around the bush anymore.
Do you have scan which says it's finite? Do you have enumber of scans which overwhelmingly outclass "infinite/endless" scans, because we have multiple of those.

We shouldn't assume that the Human World is infinite without good evidence just to give the verse Tier 1.

Whether Human World is infinite or not has never been relevent. It's low2C, end of story.

It's DW which has Tier 1 based on size, not HW, which forms basis for Tier 1. So you entire debacle has been nothing but a waste of time trying to address size of human world as if it means something.

 

[KLOL506]

So why didn't the writers of PoC keep things even shorter, and keep out more slog, by not writing "in half"?

IDK, you'd have to ask the developers yourself.

Separating a tiny piece of light in infinite darkness does not result in splitting the world in half; this is literally impossible.

I will reiterate this again.

What exactly does size have to do with AP here?

So the full story is not compatible with the PoC statement.

Again you miss the point completely.

The statement is not meant to be a full-blown backstory, it's only meant to refer to a time period before any of this HW/DW conflict BS started and where the stones originated from.

I already described what Pluto did in the OP; already read the part before starting the thread.

Then you should have realized the above instead of constantly harping on this one singular PoC scan that means next to nothing in the long run and is better off being ignored and should be ignored because it doesn't tell us the full story.

 

[KLOL506]

so are we taking all of the lore about the DW and throwing it away. because of a single statement that could just be a figure of speech? endless always means infinite. thats quite literally the word that defines what it means to be infinite in the first place.

and btw. it probably doesnt even have to be infinitely sized. just as large the observable universe to qualify for tier 1. having HDE + being fully sized(universally sized in context) qualifies according to the FAQ

Watch as how people call the ray of light a figure of speech because you called the PoC one a figure of speech.

 

[Sevil Natas]

Watch as how people call the ray of light a figure of speech because you called the PoC one a figure of speech.

except 1 is supported by like 10 other statements while the other is contradicted by 10 :v

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Demon world is infinite tho
do you want more proof

I want proof that the Human World is infinite.

If we don't have said proof, and we default that the Human World is finite, then the claim that the Demon World is infinite contradicts PoC lore.

You're implying that only normal humans emerged and caused turmoil? Because that's one hell of a leap in logic.

Not a giant leap of logic that the inhabitants of Human World would refers to humans (and hybrids).
If you referring to anything specific in the history of DMC before DMC3, please let us know.

Or maybe, the scan doesn't tell us the full picture and doesn't mean what you think it means. But go off, I suppose.

Not saying that the scan is giving detailed information. In fact, if it gave less information then there wouldn't be any apparent contradictions.

How about we go with the apparent meaning?

Except, it is infinite. Or are you just being blatantly ignorant of the source material?

No, I am providing an argument based on the source material:

1- Either infinite or finite
2- It is impossible to be infinite
C: Therefore finite

What part of "what does size have to do with AP" did you not get?

The AP rating our universe would get is via size.

 

[Sevil Natas]

If we don't have said proof, and we default that the Human World is finite, then the claim that the Demon World is infinite contradicts PoC lore.

this is funny. because PoC itself calls the demon world infinite lol

 

[KLOL506]

I want proof that the Human World is infinite.

If we don't have said proof, and we default that the Human World is finite, then the claim that the Demon World is infinite contradicts PoC lore.

Literal comedy.

Not a giant leap of logic that the inhabitants of Human World would refers to humans (and hybrids).
If you referring to anything specific in the history of DMC before DMC3, please let us know.

It's right in front of you, if you still refuse to see it then I can't help you.

Not saying that the scan is giving detailed information. In fact, if it gave less information then there wouldn't be any apparent contradictions.

So much for not listening to a single word that I or Sevil just said.

How about we go with the apparent meaning?

There is no apparent meaning to go here with in the first place.

No, I am providing an argument based on the source material:

1- Either infinite or finite
2- It is impossible to be infinite
C: Therefore finite

What are you basing this dumb logic on again?

Oh that's right, HW being finite and therefore DW being finite because the word "in half" was mentioned. Which of course, makes no sense given the mountainload of evidence confirming the DW to be infinite. Consistency with context will always take priority over whatever the hell it is you're proposing.

The AP rating our universe would get is via size.

That doesn't answer my question.

HW popped up. It damaged the DW like you claim it to.

What the hell does size here have to do with AP exactly?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I want proof that the Human World is infinite.

If we don't have said proof, and we default that the Human World is finite, then the claim that the Demon World is infinite contradicts PoC lore.

I..... can't believe this.
I just lost my brain cells.
HW is finite, therefore DW is also finite. LHS=RHS, hence mathematical expression proven.

Bravo.

The AP rating our universe would get is via size.

That's called Durability.
For example, World Pillar in GoW.

AP is for feats performed.
You do get AP for size if you can use size to your advantage, but it has never been a limiter.
Especially if your have feats which outstrips your size. Which is almost every character ever on this site. Cosmic Structures included.

No, I am providing an argument based on the source material:

1- Either infinite or finite
2- It is impossible to be infinite
C: Therefore finite

Ngl, this the kind of logic where you multiply both sides of equation by zero to prove they are equal.
Same energy.

 

[Robo432343]

Demon World
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
7 demon world statements being infinite

Human world
its a universe
its already low 2-c so whats the point
its a portion of the original world yet its still a universe

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

this is funny. because PoC itself calls the demon world infinite lol

But we would get 100% compatibility with lore if we acknowledge said edstatements as hyperbole, as we should with infinite statements when avoiding contradiction.

The higher the tier the higher the standards of evidence are supposed to be. So with a hyperbole that inflates statistics vs. a hyperbole that doesn't inflate statistics, we should go with the latter.

 

[KLOL506]

But we would get 100% compatibility with lore if we acknowledge said edstatements as hyperbole, as we should with infinite statements when avoiding contradiction.

Congratulations for tossing out all forms of sensible logic.

The higher the tier the higher the standards of evidence are supposed to be. So with a hyperbole that inflates statistics vs. a hyperbole that doesn't inflate statistics, we should go with the latter.

On what grounds are you exactly calling them hyperbole?

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

I..... can't believe this.
I just lost my brain cells.
HW is finite, therefore DW is also finite. LHS=RHS, hence mathematical expression proven.

Bravo.

Human World is finite, then the claim that the Demon World is infinite contradicts PoC lore.

Lol, missed a premise. Bravo.

That's called Durability.
For example, World Pillar in GoW.

AP is for feats performed.
You do get AP for size if you can use size to your advantage, but it has never been a limiter.
Especially if your have feats which outstrips your size. Which is almost every character ever on this site. Cosmic Structures included.

I would like staff Tier 1 experts to comment on whether the Demon World would have qualitative superiority on the Human World due to size difference in the case of them having equal tiers.

I acknowledge this as a possible explanation, though it remains speculative to justify Tier 1, which would make it unfavorable.

On what grounds are you exactly calling them hyperbole?

Seeking the reconciliatory explanation with less assumption, and not basing Tier 1 rating on uncertain reconciliatory explanations.

 

[Sevil Natas]

But we would get 100% compatibility with lore if we acknowledge said edstatements as hyperbole, as we should with infinite statements when avoiding contradiction.

The higher the tier the higher the standards of evidence are supposed to be. So with a hyperbole that inflates statistics vs. a hyperbole that doesn't inflate statistics, we should go with the latter.

yeah. 3 infinite statements pertaining to the nature of an object & directly stated by the source material are hyperbole because of a comment from a single statement that again could just be a figure of speech. and if said comment is taken literally it would legit contradict not only the game that it came from. but the entire lore aswell. makes sense. do you even know what hyperbole means?

 

[Reiner04]

I think Demon world is infinite is valid but, is the arguement for low 1C is that it's infinite in size compared to human world which is finite inside it? I mean... Is it any different than what 2A is? Just checking things not against or with anything.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

yeah. 3 infinite statements pertaining to the nature of an object & directly stated by the source material are hyperbole because of a comment from a single statement that again could just be a figure of speech. and if said comment is taken literally it would legit contradict not only the game that it came from. but the entire lore aswell. makes sense. do you even know what hyperbole means?

That statement casts doubt on the infinity status of the construct, so yes we should seriously consider the endless/infinity statements hyperboles. It is normal to consider an infinite statement a hyperbole depending on the context, but it is more of a stretch to consider 'split in half' one. Sure there are more statements about endless/infinity, but the terms happen to be among the most common potential hyperboles in fiction.

It is providing new information about the cosmology. It is not contradicting the lore any more than new information about the soul.
We just have to try to fit the pieces together.

 

[Robo432343]

That statement casts doubt on the infinity status of the construct, so yes we should seriously consider the endless/infinity statements hyperboles. It is normal to consider an infinite statement a hyperbole depending on the context, but it is more of a stretch to consider 'split in half' one. Sure there are more statements about endless/infinity, but the terms happen to be among the most common potential hyperboles in fiction.

It is providing new information about the cosmology. It is not contradicting the lore any more than new information about the soul.
We just have to try to fit the pieces together.

ah yes. we should consider 7+ infinity/endless statements as hyperboles

 

[Robo432343]

I think Demon world is infinite is valid but, is the arguement for low 1C is that it's infinite in size compared to human world which is finite inside it? I mean... Is it any different than what 2A is? Just checking things not against or with anything.

bro where did you get low 1-c from
demon world is 9D

 

[Reiner04]

bro where did you get low 1-c from
demon world is 9D

Fine then.

 

[Sevil Natas]

That statement casts doubt on the infinity status of the construct, so yes we should seriously consider the endless/infinity statements hyperboles. It is normal to consider an infinite statement a hyperbole depending on the context, but it is more of a stretch to consider 'split in half' one. Sure there are more statements about endless/infinity, but the terms happen to be among the most common potential hyperboles in fiction.

a hyperbole is only applicable when a claim of a feat made by a character is completely out of the verses league. for example if somebody says "I can destroy the entire universe" once in a verse where the best feats are tier 6/5 then that is a hyperbole. a hyperbole doesnt magically deal with inconsistencies in the lore nor does it make anything compatible. it is simply used for when a guy says he can do something that's so beyond the capabilities of the verse he's in. that it simply isnt reliable.

this is a completely different case. this is a matter of fact debate. since the statements themselves come from the source material. so there will be contradictions if you say that the infinite statements are wrong.

"split in half" again could just be a figure of speech it doesnt have to be literal. and that is the only interpretation that leads to no contradictions. remember there are multiple statements infinite statements but there's also alot more statements that suggest the demon world is bigger than the human world is. DMC 3 manga one is one of them. each one of those contradicts your statement aswell

It is providing new information about the cosmology. It is not contradicting the lore any more than new information about the soul.
We just have to try to fit the pieces together.

what?
first of all. there isnt any statements that contradict the information about the soul.
secondly. "providing new information about the cosmology" isnt what that statement is even for. it's talking about the chaos stones specifically. the stuff before it is just to provide context to that

 

[Robo432343]

dante fra

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

This is why you don't downgrade DMC, their supporter will defend it to their last ******* breath.

 

[Robo432343]

OP is in checkmate

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Lol, missed a premise. Bravo.

I already explained it. Not my problem you ignored it.
Size of HW is irrelevant if it's a low2C structure already. That's the only relevant datum of information.
It's spatial size has zero relevence to DWs stated size.
We have a direct comparison in size between the two in manga. A low2C structure dwarfed it's parent realm.

I don't know what's so controversial about it.

I would like staff Tier 1 experts to comment on whether the Demon World would have qualitative superiority on the Human World due to size difference in the case of them having equal tiers.

I acknowledge this as a possible explanation, though it remains speculative to justify Tier 1, which would make it unfavorable.

Have at it.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

That statement casts doubt on the infinity status of the construct, so yes we should seriously consider the endless/infinity statements hyperboles. It is normal to consider an infinite statement a hyperbole depending on the context, but it is more of a stretch to consider 'split in half' one. Sure there are more statements about endless/infinity, but the terms happen to be among the most common potential hyperboles in fiction.

That's just your interpretation. And at this point I don't know if it's just your natural interpretation or something purposefully you are peddling.
There's only two main outcomes of the comcerned statement, neither of which has any pertinence to matter at hand.
1)Either it's mostly a irrelevant statement due to being wierdly worded, or we just lack context on it which has yet to be revealed in game.
2) It just buffs HW's influence on DW due to their opposing natures. Which isn't even something new, because Manga already stated that, which infact is one of the main motivating factors for Pluto to do what he did, something we already acknowledge.

Conclusively, You are just attempting to make a mountain out of a molehill.

It is providing new information about the cosmology. It is not contradicting the lore any more than new information about the soul.
We just have to try to fit the pieces together.

And when I take your endeavour to it's logical conclusion, you balk and back away.
Not very classy.

 

[CRYING_POTATO_55]

disagree fra

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

@KLOL506 I just want to say here but i don't like your bluntness here, no offense lel

Anyway this is what i afraid of, should we go with my idea to ban the tier 1 DMC downgrade?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I don't feel need for that. Because well at least this CRT was creative enough use different arguements for OP.

Although I still stand by discussion rule for DMC 3 Manga, that's all

 

[KLOL506]

@KLOL506 I just want to say here but i don't like your bluntness here, no offense lel

None taken, I like being blunt when I see BS being hurled in front of me that makes my brain die a little.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I don't feel need for that. Because well at least this CRT was creative enough use different arguements for OP.

Although I still stand by discussion rule for DMC 3 Manga, that's all

Yeah but if this going to continue, an action is a must
needless to say, let's see what happen next

It's better to wait for the thread about tier 1 by Fujiwara instead going back and forth attempting to downgrade DMC

None taken, I like being blunt when I see BS being hurled in front of me that makes my brain die a little.

I still not going to take that, feels uncomfortable to me

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Btw put me in neutral based on what has been debated here

 

[KLOL506]

I still not going to take that, feels uncomfortable to me

When you're in my line of work rooting out some of the dumbest things you'll ever see in life, you'll have the same kind of feeling and the need to response in a blunt way. It is what it is.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

When you're in my line of work rooting out some of the dumbest things you'll ever see in life, you'll have the same kind of feeling and the need to response in a blunt way. It is what it is.

And i don't like it, that's why being neutral isn't that bad at all
Anyway, this is derailing so let's talk somewhere (which i did)

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

I even feared that DMC supporters are just a large network of demonic mind hives.