Marvel Comics - Thor Shaking the Realms of the World Tree

[Eseseso]

So far

• Thor moves the world engine | 2-C
• Thor shakes the Nine realms | 2-C
• Hyperion tanks two universes | 2-C
• Hulk rips the undying ones dimension | Low 2-C
• two thors strength is comparable or superior to the big bang | High 3-A - Low 2-C
• Thor lays Waste to jotunheim | Low 2-C
• And shatters Yggdrasils root | 2-C (i think?)
• Thor and Beta Ray bill can lay waste to asgard | Low 2-C
• Thor Shakes the fabric of infinity | Low 2-C
• Thor tanked an explosion that rivalled the Big Bang and destroyed the entire Black Galaxy, which is a universe made of biological matter / bioverse | 3-A, High 3-A or Low 2-C
• Hulk causing earthquakes on infinite planets | High 3-A
• Hulk having his power level measured as infinite | High 3-A
• Beta Ray Bill and stardust shake the universe | High 3-A
• Thor tanks the unbinding stone | possibly High 3-A

Scaling chains

• Thor battled Perrikus and took blasts from him. Perrikus is the God of Unlimited Power and Infinite Energy
• Damaged Galactus.
• Harmed Odin.
• Rent the heavens asunder in his battle against the Odin Destroyer and held his own.
• Harmed Glory by summoning the winds of a thousand worlds. (And we should find out how strong Glory is)
• Harmed Skyfather Hercules.
• Fought against Surtur.
• Briefly knocked out Mangog.
• Briefly knocked out the Phoenix Force, though far weaker than it

Of course these need heavy evaluation

Don't forget all the 2-a stuff above

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

So far

• Thor moves the world engine | 2-C
• Thor shakes the Nine realms | 2-C
• Hyperion tanks two universes | 2-C
• Hulk rips the undying ones dimension | Low 2-C
• two thors strength is comparable or superior to the big bang | High 3-A - Low 2-C
• Thor lays Waste to jotunheim | Low 2-C
• And shatters Yggdrasils root | 2-C (i think?)
• Thor and Beta Ray bill can lay waste to asgard | Low 2-C
• Thor Shakes the fabric of infinity | Low 2-C
• Thor tanked an explosion that rivalled the Big Bang and destroyed the entire Black Galaxy, which is a universe made of biological matter / bioverse | 3-A, High 3-A or Low 2-C
• Hulk causing earthquakes on infinite planets | High 3-A
• Hulk having his power level measured as infinite | High 3-A
• Beta Ray Bill and stardust shake the universe | High 3-A
• Thor tanks the unbinding stone | possibly High 3-A

Scaling chains

• Thor battled Perrikus and took blasts from him. Perrikus is the God of Unlimited Power and Infinite Energy
• Damaged Galactus.
• Harmed Odin.
• Rent the heavens asunder in his battle against the Odin Destroyer and held his own.
• Harmed Glory by summoning the winds of a thousand worlds. (And we should find out how strong Glory is)
• Harmed Skyfather Hercules.
• Fought against Surtur.
• Briefly knocked out Mangog.
• Briefly knocked out the Phoenix Force, though far weaker than it

Of course these need heavy evaluation

As far as the strength of Glory goes, we have WoG stating that Glory's power was equal to Odin's + the rest of Asgard combined

 

[Excellence616]

Shouldn't Hulk scale to both Thor and Hyperion because Low 2-C is pretty low for him

 

[Excellence616]

Shouldn't Hulk scale to both Thor and Hyperion because Low 2-C is pretty low for him

Hercules and Gladiator should also scale to both Thor and Hulk before. Hercules has his own feat of lifting the heavens

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

Gladiator also has an in-universe explanation for varying power levels

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Hercules has his own feat of lifting the heavens

That feat is High 3-A right? Would using it also mean Hercules and co. get Infinite lifting strength, since the heavens are suggested to have infinite weight?

 

[Excellence616]

That feat is High 3-A right? Would using it also mean Hercules and co. get Infinite lifting strength, since the heavens are suggested to have infinite weight?

Yes.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

So far

• Thor moves the world engine | 2-C
• Thor shakes the Nine realms | 2-C
• Hyperion tanks two universes | 2-C
• Hulk rips the undying ones dimension | Low 2-C
• two thors strength is comparable or superior to the big bang | High 3-A - Low 2-C
• Thor lays Waste to jotunheim | Low 2-C
• And shatters Yggdrasils root | 2-C (i think?)
• Thor and Beta Ray bill can lay waste to asgard | Low 2-C
• Thor Shakes the fabric of infinity | Low 2-C
• Thor tanks an explosion that rivalled the Big Bang and destroyed the entire Black Galaxy, which is a universe made of biological matter / bioverse | 3-A, High 3-A or Low 2-C
• Hulk causing earthquakes on infinite planets | High 3-A
• Hulk having his power level measured as infinite | High 3-A
• Beta Ray Bill and stardust shake the universe | High 3-A
• Thor tanks the unbinding stone | possibly High 3-A
• Grey Hulk moves a universe | High 3-A
• Hulk destroys a universe fighting Onslaught | High 3-A

Scaling chains

• Thor battled Perrikus and took blasts from him. Perrikus is the God of Unlimited Power and Infinite Energy
• Damaged Galactus.
• Harmed Odin.
• Rent the heavens asunder in his battle against the Odin Destroyer and held his own.
• Harmed Glory by summoning the winds of a thousand worlds. (And we should find out how strong Glory is)
• Harmed Skyfather Hercules.
• Fought against Surtur.
• Briefly knocked out Mangog.
• Briefly knocked out the Phoenix Force, though far weaker than it
• Apocalypse states hulks energy can surpass celestials

Of course these need heavy evaluation

Updated

 

[Antvasima]

So far

• Thor moves the world engine | 2-C

Yes.

• Thor shakes the Nine realms | 2-C

I think that is likely High 3-A combined with Low Multiversal range.

• Hyperion tanks two universes | 2-C

Yes.

• Hulk rips the undying ones dimension | Low 2-C

Please remind me with the relevant scans and issue reference. Did I reject this feat previously? I would much prefer to not have to repeat myself over and over here.

• two thors strength is comparable or superior to the big bang | High 3-A - Low 2-C

The Big Bang is only Low 2-C if it is a creation from nothing of universal space-time. If itis just an enormous physical explosion, I think that it has been calculated as tier 3-B in the past.

• Thor lays Waste to jotunheim | Low 2-C

Laying waste, i.e. causing lots of damage to homes and the landscape, rather than the entire space-time structure, is nowhere near Low 2-C.

• And shatters Yggdrasils root | 2-C (i think?)

This might work, but Yggdrasil is not always portrayed as having remotely Multi-Universal durability. We need evidence though.

• Thor and Beta Ray bill can lay waste to asgard | Low 2-C

See my comment above about Jotunheim.

• Thor Shakes the fabric of infinity | Low 2-C

Well, High 3-A if it is a reliable feat at least, but we need the scans and issue reference as usual.

• Thor tanks an explosion that rivalled the Big Bang and destroyed the entire Black Galaxy, which is a universe made of biological matter / bioverse | 3-A, High 3-A or Low 2-C

Did he tank the entire explosion? Also, the Black Galaxy is still usually explained as "just" being a living organism the size of a galaxy as far as I recall.

• Hulk causing earthquakes on infinite planets | High 3-A

Yes, but Ironclad withstood those blows, so that seems very inconsistent.

• Hulk having his power level measured as infinite | High 3-A

Yes.

• Beta Ray Bill and stardust shake the universe | High 3-A

It depends on if they shook the entire universe. Also, the Marvel universe is usually not treated as literally infinitely large as far as I am aware.

• Thor tanks the unbinding stone | possibly High 3-A

We need scans and an issue reference please.

• Grey Hulk moves a universe | High 3-A

Say what? Moving in the Dark Matter universe does not seem like such an extreme feat, and the Grey Hulk was regularly beaten up by mid-level superheroes.

• Hulk destroys a universe fighting Onslaught | High 3-A

That is not what happened in the Onslaught storyline. It is an inaccurate retelling, seemingly to make a metafictional point about real world fans of the Hulk.

That said, the Hulk legitimately overpowered Onslaught when the latter had Franklin Richards' and X-Man's powers combined.

Scaling chains

• Thor battled Perrikus and took blasts from him. Perrikus is the God of Unlimited Power and Infinite Energy
• Damaged Galactus.
• Harmed Odin.
• Rent the heavens asunder in his battle against the Odin Destroyer and held his own.
• Harmed Glory by summoning the winds of a thousand worlds.
• Harmed Skyfather Hercules.
• Fought against Surtur.
• Briefly knocked out Mangog.
• Briefly knocked out the Phoenix Force, though far weaker than it
• Apocalypse states hulks energy can surpass celestials

Of course these need heavy evaluation

Again, Marvel runs on everybody can fight everybody, so we need to be quite careful.

Also, Perrikus having literally infknite energy should probably be taken with a grain of salt, especially as Dan Jurgens explicitly only intended to portray Odin at a planetary power level if I recall correctly.

Rending the heavens asunder seems hard to quantify properly.

The Hulk was channelling the power of Franklin Richards at the time of Apocalypse's Celestials statement.

 

[Antvasima]

Hercules and Gladiator should also scale to both Thor and Hulk before. Hercules has his own feat of lifting the heavens

If they have no feats remotely approaching that scale, it seems far too speculative and unreliable.

Lifting the heavens might work, but it could technically also just mean the atmosphere.

 

[Eseseso]

You know, I was thinking for Thor's 2-A stuff, we could do what we did with 2-A Odin and make basically no one else scale to that end of Thor.

 

[Antvasima]

That feat is High 3-A right? Would using it also mean Hercules and co. get Infinite lifting strength, since the heavens are suggested to have infinite weight?

Well, I suppose that could probably work then.

 

[Antvasima]

You know, I was thinking for Thor's 2-A stuff, we could do what we did with 2-A Odin and make basically no one else scale to that end of Thor.

I think that sticking to 2-C for his regular statistics, except for the god-blast seems more reliable so far.

 

[Eseseso]

I think that sticking to 2-C for his regular statistics, except for the god-blast seems more reliable so far.

I'd agree with you were it not for the half-dozen or more relatively consistent 2-A feats we have.

I feel like we should at least mention them in Thor's key.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I much prefer if we currently focus on using Thor's explicit raw power display feats instead of scaling from other characters. I am not ruling out further revisions at some point in the future though.

 

[Eseseso]

Well, I much prefer if we currently focus on using Thor's explicit raw power display feats instead of scaling from other characters. I am not ruling out further revisions at some point in the future though.

After the 2-C stuff for Thor is put in, we can discuss a 2-A addition on another CRT.

 

[Antvasima]

It will probably have to wait a while. We preferably need explicit feat of that tier, not just powerscaling from other characters, as that can just as easily end up at tier 1-A as 2-A.

 

[Eseseso]

It will probably have to wait a while. We preferably need explicit feat of that tier, not just powerscaling from other characters, as that can just as easily end up at tier 1-A as 2-A.

What do you mean?

All of Thor's 2-A scaling has no basis for 1-A, asides from TOWSAIS

 

[Antvasima]

He harmed Mikaboshi, Super-Skyfather Hercules, a Beyonder, and likely chain-scales to other characters with similar feats.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

I think that is likely High 3-A combined with Low Multiversal range.

I dont understand how shaking (affecting) 9 Low 2-C structures is High 3-A
Unless i am missing something

Please remind me with the relevant scans and issue reference. Did I reject this feat previously? I would much prefer to not have to repeat myself over and over here.

The fight with Dark-Crawler, i believe you rejected it because Dark crawlers durability was no where near 3-A - Low 2-C, which I agree with the more i think about it
But, while an outlier feat for Dark crawler, is it not usable for the hulk?

The Big Bang is only Low 2-C if it is a creation from nothing of universal space-time. If itis just an enormous physical explosion, I think that it has been calculated as tier 3-B in the past.

Yes, but the marvel universe is infinitly sized.
Which is why i considered it High 3-A to Low 2-C (Which i dont really know if that logic works)

Laying waste, i.e. causing lots of damage to homes and the landscape, rather than the entire space-time structure, is nowhere near Low 2-C.

May i ask why tho? If we accept asgard for example as a realm not just a planet like the MCU, and “laying waste” to something in Marvel comics is commonly used for destroying something, then cant it be seen as atleast affecting the entire realm?

This might work, but Yggdrasil is not always portrayed as having remotely Multi-Universal durability. We need evidence though.

Why?

Well, High 3-A if it is a reliable feat at least, but we need the scans and issue reference as usual.

I will list the scans of all of these later, but if you are asking for the scans of this specific feat its here

Yes, but Ironclad withstood those blows, so that seems very inconsistent.

Isnt Ironclad herald level?

It depends on if they shook the entire universe. Also, the Marvel universe is usually not treated as literally infinitely large as far as I am aware.

Yes, it is even stated that they will destroy “everything, and we do mean EVERYTHING”

Again, Marvel runs on everybody can fight everybody, so we need to be quite careful.

Also, Perrikus having literally infknite energy should probably be taken with a grain of salt, especially as Dan Jurgens explicitly only intended to portray Odin at a planetary power level if I recall correctly.

Agreed

Rending the heavens asunder seems hard to quantify properly.

It could be used as a possible supporting statement

 

[Antvasima]

I dont understand how shaking (affecting) 9 Low 2-C structures is High 3-A
Unless i am missing something

If it only affects physical 3-D space via regular energy-based vibrations/shaking, it doesn't seem like a tier 2 feat. We separate range and attack potency for good reasons, as they often do not coincide.

The fight with Dark-Crawler, i believe you rejected it because Dark crawlers durability was no where near 3-A - Low 2-C, which I agree with the more i think about it
But, while an outlier feat for Dark crawler, is it not usable for the hulk?

Well, maybe in conjunction with his other highest feats.

Yes, but the marvel universe is infinitly sized.
Which is why i considered it High 3-A to Low 2-C (Which i dont really know if that logic works)

It doesn't work, no. Sorry.

May i ask why tho? If we accept asgard for example as a realm not just a planet like the MCU, and “laying waste” to something in Marvel comics is commonly used for destroying something, then cant it be seen as atleast affecting the entire realm?

Laying waste to the army and buildings of a country does not automatically translated as blowing up universes. Sorry, but this is not up for discussion.

Why?

Because we cannot just take a member's word for it without scans and a story/issue reference.

I will list the scans of all of these later, but if you are asking for the scans of this specific feat its here

It seems like Tom DeFalco's typical flowery language. Sorry.

Isnt Ironclad herald level?

No, not remotely. He is officially supposed to be a bit below Thing-level.

Yes, it is even stated that they will destroy “everything, and we do mean EVERYTHING”

Advertisement blurbs for upcoming stories are often misleading and filled with hyperbole. https://i.imgur.com/XSMejYm_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

Agreed

Thank you.

It could be used as a possible supporting statement

Probably not, but you can show me the scan if you wish.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

On the topic of the Black Galaxy, I believe the reason people are referring to it as a Universal structure is because it's called a living Universe (Thor #407 and Thor #422) and because it's referred to as an infinite gulf of space and time (Thor #417).

Also to make sure I'm following this thread, is this to change Thor's 3-C to H3-A/L2-C/2-C, or to add further justification to his 2-C key?

 

[Antvasima]

The infinite gulf of time and space refers to the distance between the black galaxy and the other part of the universe that the characters travelled from, which together with "living universe" illustrates Tom DeFalco's tendency for inserting incoherent nonsense terms into his stories. It is named as a galaxy and is located as a very small part of the greater universe. That is all we need to know. It is far too unreliable to rate it as a universal structure.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Upon rereading the scan, the infinite gulf is probably referring to the distance traveled. However, I'm not entirely convinced it's only Galactic in size. I don't think being named a Galaxy is a contradiction to being a Universe, as the scan reads that it had become he home of the living Universe, implying it grew in size over time. It's also said to be shrouded from the rest of reality, so I don't think it's simply a small area within the Universe, but rather a separate, concealed area. However, considering the wiki accepts the Marvel Universe as being a trillion light-year wide Universe, it would be possible for there to be other Universal bodies inside of it considering its size.

Also, I'm still not clear on the intention of this thread, so I'll repeat this question:

Also to make sure I'm following this thread, is this to change Thor's 3-C to H3-A/L2-C/2-C, or to add further justification to his 2-C key?

 

[Antvasima]

I still don't want to to use speculation regarding unproven greater sizes for the black galaxy.

Our current focus here seems to be to find extra feats to justify Thor's 2-C tier, as well as see if any other Marvel superhero characters have High 3-A to 2-C level feats that we can scale their upper maximums from.

 

[Excellence616]

Our current focus here seems to be to find extra feats to justify Thor's 2-C tier, as well as see if any other Marvel superhero characters have High 3-A to 2-C level feats that we can scale their upper maximums from.

Silver Surfer Fought a servant/avatar of Death

Cosmic Powers unlimited #1

Silver Surfer cut through space time

Silver Surfer: black vol 1 #1

Silver Surfer survive a universal explosion

Infinity Gauntlet vol 1 #5

Silver Surfer vs Mephisto in his realm

Silver Surfer Vol 1 #3

Silver Surfer hold Griever for 16 minutes 4 seconds

Fantastic Four Vol 6 #28


Green Scar fighting a Zoom possessed Doctor Strange

https://imgur.com/a/pKR44HG

Worldld War Hulk #4

 

[Eseseso]

He harmed Mikaboshi,

Depends which incarnation since his first one is 2-a IIRC

Super-Skyfather Hercules

Outlier unless it was 2-A skyfather hercules

, a Beyonder,

Wasn't that a drone?

and likely chain-scales to other characters with similar feats.

I question this.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Depends which incarnation since his first one is 2-a IIRC

It was the Low 1-A version, but Thor was also amped by Skyfather Hercules, so it isn't really Thor's base form

Outlier unless it was 2-A skyfather hercules

Pretty sure the one being referred to here is 2-A Skyfather Hercules

Wasn't that a drone?

The ones that fought Thor and Hyperion are drones, yes

 

[Eseseso]

It was the Low 1-A version, but Thor was also amped by Skyfather Hercules, so it isn't really Thor's base form

So Thor wouldn't scale to that

Pretty sure the one being referred to here is 2-A Skyfather Hercules

So it's a valid 2-A feat

The ones that fought Thor and Hyperion are drones, yes

So Thor didn't fight an actual beyonder

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

Shoot, I didn't know that Thor was amped when he injured Mikaboshi. I always thought it was just a ridiculous outlier. Does that technically mean that's his strongest form?

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Thor also scales to Jormungand, who had an immortal battle with Odin "stretching as long and bloody and deep as the roots of Yggdrasil itself" (Thor Vol 6 9)

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

We need scans and an issue reference please.

the Unbinding Stone would repeal the very laws of physics, and loosen the principles that bound reality until they’re wiped from existence and end all creation, what resistances would Thor have for withstanding it (not sure whether this feat also applies to durability, but if it does that's cool)

All of this was within Thor: The Deviants Saga Vol 1

 

[Eseseso]

Thor also scales to Jormungand, who had an immortal battle with Odin "stretching as long and bloody and deep as the roots of Yggdrasil itself" (Thor Vol 6 9)

How does Thor scale?

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

How does Thor scale?

According to his profile, Jormungand is comparable to Thor and "only beings as powerful as Thor can deal noticeable damage to it". They have battled against each other on several occasions, such as in Thor #380 (1966)

 

[Eseseso]

According to his profile, Jormungand is comparable to Thor and "only beings as powerful as Thor can deal noticeable damage to it". They have battled against each other on several occasions, such as in Thor #380 (1966)

Ok that's fine.

 

[Excellence616]

Silver Surfer Fought a servant/avatar of Death

Cosmic Powers unlimited #1

Silver Surfer cut through space time

Silver Surfer: black vol 1 #1

Silver Surfer survive a universal explosion

Infinity Gauntlet vol 1 #5

Silver Surfer vs Mephisto in his realm

Silver Surfer Vol 1 #3

Silver Surfer hold Griever for 16 minutes 4 seconds

Fantastic Four Vol 6 #28


Green Scar fighting a Zoom possessed Doctor Strange

https://imgur.com/a/pKR44HG

Worldld War Hulk #4

What of these feats?

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

What of these feats?

How powerful is this servant/avatar of death?

Is that not just Space-Time Manipulation?

I guess that looks fine...? I'm not 100% sure, though

Doesn't really look like he's fighting Mephisto with AP, or maybe I'm just confused as to what is happening with them

How powerful is Griever?

 

[ObberGobb]

What is the "universal explosion" one? It looks to me that that explosion is just Multi-Solar System level.

 

[Excellence616]

How powerful is Griever

A being as the embodiment of entropy, the Griever at the End of All Things was a mysterious creature who claimed her purpose was to witness the last light fade from the edge of Eternity and grieve for everything that ever was and was ever meant to be. As an Abstract Entity, the Griever possesses a power to destroy dimensions, reality, and multiple universes at once.

 

[Excellence616]

What is the "universal explosion" one? It looks to me that that explosion is just Multi-Solar System level.

That was a clash of multiple abstract entities.