Marvel Comics - Thor Shaking the Realms of the World Tree

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I also understood the Ragnarok story that you talked about above as Rune King Thor being comparable to Those Who Sit Above In Shadow.

 

[Newendigo]

Celestial scaling should probably be written off as the current run of A.X.E shows a semi-dead Celestial killing Thor and a bunch of other "heralds" like Echo with the Phoenix force Jean grey laughbly easy.

In comparison, Iron Man's Celestial armor is just a plain garbage excuse considering how easily thrased it was by Thor and Hulk, and little pathetic damage could to the latter.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, the Celestials have gone up and done to extreme degrees in recent years, from Jason Aaron and Donny Cates treating them as pushovers that could be beaten by Ghost Rider and a giant Iron Man armor or The Sentry, to Kieron Gillen treating skyfather Thor (who stomped a full power Galactus) and the Phoenix Force as pushovers to just one of them.

 

[ObberGobb]

What do you think the rating for Those Who Sit Above In Shadows should be? 2-A for being unquantifiably above Odin? Low 1-C for theoretically transcending him by one dimension in the same way Odin does to humans? Low 1-A due to Loki theorizing they are Beyonders? There's also the statement of them existing outside of all realities, which some people say is a Low 1-A feat, but I don't know if that's the case.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if they were Low 1-A it wouldn't make any sense that they would need to feed on the relatively tiny space-time cycles of Yggdrasil in the first place.

Low 1-C doesn't seem completely outrageous though.

 

[ObberGobb]

We could do "Low 1-C, possibly Low 1-A". But if thats too much, I'm fine with Low 1-C.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Why was Low 1-A Yggsrasil rejected again?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, likely because it is usually just portrayed as containing several universes, and due to that it would create a scaling nightmare. Do you honestly believe that Odin and Surtur are Low 1-A (!!!!!) for example?

 

[Eseseso]

Can someone provide a proper example of a not-confusing justification for Low 1-C RKT?

 

[Antvasima]

We could do "Low 1-C, possibly Low 1-A". But if thats too much, I'm fine with Low 1-C.

Low 1-C seems safer if we are going to scale from them at all, but it may be safest to simply remove the Rune King Thor statistics key and the TWSAIS page if we have one, instead, to avoid severe inconsistencies due to retroactive continuity.

 

[Antvasima]

Can someone provide a proper example of a not-confusing justification for Low 1-C RKT?

Likely scaling at least one degree of infinity above Odin.

 

[ObberGobb]

I definitely think that RKT should have a key. Ragnarok is one of the most important Thor events ever, so it definitely is notable enough. But yeah, Low 1-C seems safest.

 

[Excellence616]

Can this feat and statements can be use for Hulk

Hulk destroys the universe
Hulk: Grand Design - Madnes



Grey Hulk moved in a universe of infinite density
Incredible hulk vol 1 #37



Hulk rage is enough to ravage worlds
Incredible Hulk vol 1 #30



Hulk absorb energy to hurt one of The One Below All forms with a thunderclap
Immortal Hulk #1

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/762759625325150248/892443717477212170/mrBdkzx.png Al Ewing On hulk defeating the One Below All

Apocalypse stated that the energy which the Hulk produce may help him rise above the celestials incredible hulk vol 1 #456

What of the rest?

 

[Antvasima]

The Onslaught event is very misrepresented, as that is not what happened; The Grey Hulk was usually far less powerful than other Hulks and not even angry here; The Hulk beating the physical manifestation of a big aspect of The One Above All is a massive outlier; A world is usually just another word for planet; And the Hulk channelled nexus energy from Franklin Richards when Apocalypse subdued and imprisoned him.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Well, likely because it is usually just portrayed as containing several universes, and due to that it would create a scaling nightmare. Do you honestly believe that Odin and Surtur are Low 1-A (!!!!!) for example?

the argument was them not affecting all of yggdrassil so they wouldn`t scale to Low 1A

 

[Excellence616]

The Grey Hulk was usually far less powerful than other Hulks and not even angry here;

I thought grey hulk is supposed to be more powerful at night

 

[Antvasima]

the argument was them not affecting all of yggdrassil so they wouldn`t scale to Low 1A

But I think that Odin's current statistics are scaled from preventing the destruction of all of Yggdrasil.

I thought grey hulk is supposed to be more powerful at night

Not remotely to that degree.

Anyway, can somebody list all of the feats that I considered reasonably reliable to scale from above?

Is it just The Pre-Retcon Beyonder categorising the Hulk as having potentially literally infinite power, Hulk allegedly destroying a universe, and Hyperion surviving the destruction of two universes, or did I forget anything?

 

[Beyond_transcending]

Anyway, I also understood the Ragnarok story that you talked about above as Rune King Thor being comparable to Those Who Sit Above In Shadow.

Can you elaborate on why RKT scales to TWSAIS?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, he seemed to be perceived as a threat or a worthy addition to their group as far as I recall.

 

[ObberGobb]

Yeah, they recognized his strength enough to invite him to join their club. They were also scared enough of him that they resorted to bargaining instead of even attempting to stop him directly.

 

[Transcending]

Well, he seemed to be perceived as a threat or a worthy addition to their group as far as I recall.

Yeah but that was only because Thor was going destroy the Looms of Fate. They were manipulating him into not doing it

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I do not remember the story very well anymore. I read it long ago.

 

[Transcending]

They were also scared enough of him that they resorted to bargaining instead of even attempting to stop him directly.

As I said before, if someone has a gun on you, or put a remote bomb in your house he can denote at any time, would you risk running at him and beat him up or will you try to talk? Obviously talk, if you try to run at him he can instantly detonate the bomb or shoot you.

Same thing here, if TWSAIS tried to fight Thor, Thor would have immediately destroyed the Looms instead of finishing his speech.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

As I said before, if someone has a gun on you, or put a remote bomb in your house he can denote at any time, would you risk running at him and beat him up or will you try to talk? Obviously talk, if you try to run at him he can instantly detonate the bomb or shoot you.

Same thing here, if TWSAIS tried to fight Thor, Thor would have immediately destroyed the Looms instead of finishing his speech.

This logic makes sense to me. TWSAIS were clearly incapable of stopping Thor at this point and were reduced to bargaining. They knew they were in checkmate and hoped that Thor didn't know it.

 

[Transcending]

Well, I do not remember the story very well anymore. I read it long ago.

What do you think now?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I still think that it seems to make better logical sense if Thor was comparable to them, but it isn't absolutely certain.

 

[ObberGobb]

This logic makes sense to me. TWSAIS were clearly incapable of stopping Thor at this point and were reduced to bargaining. They knew they were in checkmate and hoped that Thor didn't know it.

Yes, they were incapable of stopping him because he was on their level now. If he was still only normal Skyfather level, he wouldn't have had the means to checkmate them as they could have simply one-shot him. The very fact that fighting Thor wouldn't have worked proves that he is at least comparable to them. And again, they directly reference his strength when bargaining with him. The clear intent is that he is comparable, or stronger.

Everything you have said is theoretical excuses for why TWSAIS would act the way they did based on the assumption that Thor is weaker. I don't think there has been any evidence presented for Thor being weaker on the first place.

Your argument is built off an initial assumption that Thor isn't on their level, and explains only why the story could theoretically still work if that were the case. Again, I might have missed something, but I have yet to see any evidence that justifies that initial assumption of Thor being weaker. We have two things that imply Thor is equal to or stronger. What in the story implies he is weaker?

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

I agree with @ObberGobb

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

It seems pretty cut-and-dry, to be honest.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

I think the main issue now is TWSAISs ratings, there is a possibility for Low 1-A

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

What's the strongest argument for Low 1-A? From what I understand they only had a tenuous connection to the Beyonders and that was a theory of Loki's rather than an outright statement

 

[ObberGobb]

The main two things are these:

1. Loki theorized that they may be Beyonders (Loki: Agent of Asgard #17)
2. Their speech to Odin mirrored the Beyonder's speech, giving a lot of validity to Loki's theory

Both of them are from a story written long after the Ragnarok arc.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

Would that be enough to justify a possibly low 1-A rating?

 

[NHTkenshin2]

And them existing inside The Outside, a place where Multi-Eternity level entities cant survive in and Odin claiming they exist outside all realities

A possibly Low 1-A rating is not too far off, the only problem is them feeding on the energy of ragnarok, which can be used against the Low 1-A

Honestly, the more i read about Yggdrasil, the more “multiversal” it looks, but again, Low 1-A skyfathers is hilarious, so idk

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

Was there an explanation for Loki and Verity existing in the Outside despite not being 1-A entities? If we can swing this I'm totally down, but I want to make sure that there's a strong case first.

 

[Excellence616]

Is it just The Pre-Retcon Beyonder categorising the Hulk as having potentially literally infinite power, Hulk allegedly destroying a universe, and Hyperion surviving the destruction of two universes, or did I forget anything?

No the rest are considered unusable and outliers

 

[NHTkenshin2]

No the rest are considered unusable and outliers

There are alot more, i can list them later.

 

[Excellence616]

There are alot more, i can list them later.

Okay

 

[Transcending]

This is Ad Nauseam at this point.

Yes, they were incapable of stopping him because he was on their level now. If he was still only normal Skyfather level, he wouldn't have had the means to checkmate them as they could have simply one-shot him.

Addressed this before

As I said before, if someone has a gun on you, or put a remote bomb in your house he can denote at any time, would you risk running at him and beat him up or will you try to talk? Obviously talk, if you try to run at him he can instantly detonate the bomb or shoot you.

Same thing here, if TWSAIS tried to fight Thor, Thor would have immediately destroyed the Looms instead of finishing his speech.

The matter of relevance here isn't strength, it's speed..

The very fact that fighting Thor wouldn't have worked proves that he is at least comparable to them.

Addressed this here

If they were comparable, their attacks would have still hurt Thor enough to prevent him from destroying the Looms of Fate. So why did they listen to Thor without doing anything?

Everything you have said is theoretical excuses for why TWSAIS would act the way they did based on the assumption that Thor is weaker. I don't think there has been any evidence presented for Thor being weaker on the first place.

"Theoretical excuses" are all I need because I am not making the positive claim. I don't have to prove RKT is weaker because again, I am making the negative claim. Burden of Proof is on you since you are making the positive claim that RKT scales to TWSAIS, I simply have to counter your evidence.

Your argument is built off an initial assumption that Thor isn't on their level, and explains only why the story could theoretically still work if that were the case. Again, I might have missed something, but I have yet to see any evidence that justifies that initial assumption of Thor being weaker. We have two things that imply Thor is equal to or stronge

Look above, I don't have to prove a negative, saying Thor isn't on their level is a negative claim.

And again, they directly reference his strength when bargaining with him. The clear intent is that he is comparable, or stronger.

They reference his strength because at that point, Thor could easily destroy the Looms. They were trying to manipulate Thor to sit with them instead, and respecting his strength is one of the best ways for that.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

So far

• Thor moves the world engine | 2-C
• Thor shakes the Nine realms | 2-C
• Hyperion tanks two universes | 2-C
• Hulk rips the undying ones dimension | Low 2-C
• two thors strength is comparable or superior to the big bang | High 3-A - Low 2-C
• Thor lays Waste to jotunheim | Low 2-C
• And shatters Yggdrasils root | 2-C (i think?)
• Thor and Beta Ray bill can lay waste to asgard | Low 2-C
• Thor Shakes the fabric of infinity | Low 2-C
• Thor tanks an explosion that rivalled the Big Bang and destroyed the entire Black Galaxy, which is a universe made of biological matter / bioverse | 3-A, High 3-A or Low 2-C
• Hulk causing earthquakes on infinite planets | High 3-A
• Hulk having his power level measured as infinite | High 3-A
• Beta Ray Bill and stardust shake the universe | High 3-A
• Thor tanks the unbinding stone | possibly High 3-A
• Grey Hulk moves a universe | High 3-A
• Hulk destroys a universe fighting Onslaught | High 3-A

Scaling chains

• Thor battled Perrikus and took blasts from him. Perrikus is the God of Unlimited Power and Infinite Energy
• Damaged Galactus.
• Harmed Odin.
• Rent the heavens asunder in his battle against the Odin Destroyer and held his own.
• Harmed Glory by summoning the winds of a thousand worlds.
• Harmed Skyfather Hercules.
• Fought against Surtur.
• Briefly knocked out Mangog.
• Briefly knocked out the Phoenix Force, though far weaker than it
• Apocalypse states hulks energy can surpass celestials

Of course these need heavy evaluation