Dragon Ball Super - Jiren and Co. Upgrade via Void Scaling

[God900]

"Aren't they going too far"

Going "too far" doesn't mean anything.

They could have perfectly use their 60%-70% for the fight and still say they went too far

 

[Sus]

Who says that Gods probably didn't control their Ki to lessen the effects of the battle????

Because they wanted to test it? Why restrict their ki?

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Uhhh I know I might be hanged for this but
how wouldn’t this just fall under the DP AP discrepancy? We don’t really have any evidence that they were trying to shake the void to begin with, even if they did go all out. It’s like if you always destroy the planet you’re on while fighting, but the 3-A person you’re fighting doesn’t, it doesn’t actually mean you’re stronger.

Please don’t get mad at me fr, I just want you to elaborate on the logic a bit here.

And even then, the void isn’t matter, it’s space. Being able to shake it could just mean shaking the arena, since that’s the only thing there that CAN shake. Anything else would just be void manipulation or something, no?

 

[Darksmash]

It would be meaningless if i don't explain why
And it was already explained why they weren't Suppressed

Where is it explained they aren't suppressed? Also not being suppressed doesn't mean anything. DB characters can go all out and still exercise Ki control.

 

[Sus]

My head hurts so bad right now, i will come back in a few hours or so

 

[Maitreya12]

Going "too far" doesn't mean anything.

They could have perfectly use their 60%-70% for the fight and still say they went too far

The problem for this argument is that since there’s 3 GOD’s, it acts as a kind of mitigating factor against their power being below the output of 2 GOD’s.

Or put simply, 2 GOD’s going at 100% of their power outputs the same amount of power or less than 3 GOD’s going at 70% of their power.

 

[Sus]

Where is it explained they aren't suppressed? Also not being suppressed doesn't mean anything. DB characters can go all out and still exercise Ki control.

My last message before i go (since this was sent before i said that i will go)

The fact that they wanted to test the stage is what proves that they didn't restrict their ki, we explained that earlier

 

[God900]

The fact beerus and champa don't each time they have clashed

And how do you know they didn't in this case?

Almost everyone in DB has perfect ki control.
The Clash between Beerus and Champa would be due to the effects of their Hakai energy which could indeed end the universe.
We even saw that in the episodie Champa and Beerus first fought.

The Hakai energy was slowly corroding the room and it would have expanded if both weren't stopped.

 

[Darksmash]

My last message before i go (since this was sent before i said that i will go)

The fact that they wanted to test the stage is what proves that they didn't restrict their ki, we explained that earlier

Just because they want to test something doesn't mean they will go all out. We know full well that destruction energy can easily disintegrate the entire stage so they should have been capable of easily nuking it. They obviously tested it within certain restrictions.

And again going all out doesn't mean they can't still exercise Ki control.

 

[God900]

The problem for this argument is that since there’s 3 GOD’s, it acts as a kind of mitigating factor against their power being below the output of 2 GOD’s.

Or put simply, 2 GOD’s going at 100% of their power outputs the same amount of power or less than 3 GOD’s going at 70% of their power.

You can go "all out" and still control your power/Ki, regardless

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Yeah no the more I look at this the more I have to disagree
Destructive capacity and Attack Potency have never been the same. It would have to be an actual 2-C structure for this to mean anything, but if the feat isn’t actually a higher tier then destroying more than another character means nothing in db

 

[God900]

Yeah no the more I look at this the more I have to disagree
Destructive capacity and Attack Potency have never been the same. It would have to be an actual 2-C structure for this to mean anything, but if the feat isn’t actually a higher tier then destroying more than another character means nothing in db

Exactly, if that was the case Goku would have ended the universe a long time ago, due to the fact that all the fights in Super were between Universal and Universal+ tier characters

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Exactly, if that was the case Goku would have ended the universe a long time ago, due to the fact that all the fights in Super were between Universal and Universal+ tier characters

We should honestly just get rid of tier 2 dragon ball to begin with, infinite zamasu just has time manip and there’s nowhere in the series where you can say the characters even got a high 3-A power amp, let alone another level of infinity higher

 

[Zencha9]

wov isn't an actual void lmao
anyways netrual

 

[Maitreya12]

You can go "all out" and still control your power/Ki, regardless

Control their ki in what respect. To not affect the WoV at all? Is there evidence to support this assumption because we both directly see them exuding their ki which noticeably shifts the background of the entire area around them as well as the fact that GOD’s are not known for worrying about the world around them, as is the case with Champa and Beerus.

This would especially be true in an area like the WoV which is timeless and infinite in size so why would they need to be holding out on their power for the WoV’s sake when it’s literally an empty world and they don’t perform this type of ki control in their very own universes.

Even Jiren letting out a little bit of his ki caused the whole WoV to shake but we clearly see that the GOD’s are very much letting out their ki and affecting the WoV around them, so I think this would be a far bigger assumption in regards to the story to make.

 

[God900]

We should honestly just get rid of tier 2 dragon ball to begin with, infinite zamasu just has time manip and there’s nowhere in the series where you can say the characters even got a high 3-A power amp, let alone another level of infinity higher

̶Y̶o̶u̶ ̶w̶a̶n̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶u̶n̶i̶v̶e̶r̶s̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶i̶m̶p̶l̶o̶d̶e̶,̶ ̶d̶o̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶?̶

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Control their ki in what respect. To not affect the WoV at all? Is there evidence to support this assumption because we both directly see them exuding their ki which noticeably shifts the background of the entire area around them as well as the fact that GOD’s are not known for worrying about the world around them, as is the case with Champa and Beerus.

This would especially be true in an area like the WoV which is timeless and infinite in size so why would they need to be holding out on their power for the WoV’s sake when it’s literally an empty world and they don’t perform this type of ki control in their very own universes.

Even Jiren letting out a little bit of his ki caused the whole WoV to shake but we clearly see that the GOD’s are very much letting out their ki and affecting the WoV around them, so I think this would be a far bigger assumption in regards to the story to make.

Dragon ball Z characters are high 4-C but when fighting eachother they just destroy mountains and shit. Does that mean that if I destroy 2 mountains I’m stronger? No. Destruction and AP are not consistent with eachother at all, that’s just how it is.

 

[Quantu]

There's series that go from Tier 5 to Tier 1 after one amp, newsflash, most fictional series don't distinguish infinities between the tiers

 

[God900]

Control their ki in what respect. To not affect the WoV at all? Is there evidence to support this assumption because we both directly see them exuding their ki which noticeably shifts the background of the entire area around them as well as the fact that GOD’s are not known for worrying about the world around them, as is the case with Champa and Beerus.

This would especially be true in an area like the WoV which is timeless and infinite in size so why would they need to be holding out on their power for the WoV’s sake when it’s literally an empty world and they don’t perform this type of ki control in their very own universes.

Even Jiren letting out a little bit of his ki caused the whole WoV to shake but we clearly see that the GOD’s are very much letting out their ki and affecting the WoV around them, so I think this would be a far bigger assumption in regards to the story to make.

By your reasoning, Vegito VS Zamas fight should've destroyed the Universe, but they only destroyed buildings.

 

[Darksmash]

There's series that go from Tier 5 to Tier 1 after one amp, newsflash, most fictional series don't distinguish infinities between the tiers

???
Which post prompted this?

 

[Quantu]

I'm replying to Ziller a few posts above, mb, phone + walking to class = not easy

 

[Maitreya12]

Dragon ball Z characters are high 4-C but when fighting eachother they just destroy mountains and shit. Does that mean that if I destroy 2 mountains I’m stronger? No. Destruction and AP are not consistent with eachother at all, that’s just how it is.

This did not address the points brought up because it is a larger assumption to make in regards to the GOD’s. Goku, the same character who has fantastic ki control, when in state all about control and precision to an even greater degree than the GOD’s themselves, still shook the WoV by his power by exuded alone. The same cannot be said about the 3 GOD’s who also noticeably powered up and affected the world around them. Which very much goes in line with how Jiren is said to have surpassed GOD level way way before he even went full power let alone went limit breaker.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

There's series that go from Tier 5 to Tier 1 after one amp, newsflash, most fictional series don't distinguish infinities between the tiers

If there weren’t a discussion rule I’d be destroying you rn

regardless as for this thread’s topic, there is not gonna be any destruction scaling and that seems to be final

 

[God900]

This did not address the points brought up because it is a larger assumption to make in regards to the GOD’s. Goku, the same character who has fantastic ki control, when in state all about control and precision to an even greater degree than the GOD’s themselves, still shook the WoV by his power by exuded alone. The same cannot be said about the 3 GOD’s who also noticeably powered up and affected the world around them. Which very much goes in line with how Jiren is said to have surpassed GOD level way way before he even went full power let alone went limit breaker.

Just becouse Goku has Ki control, that doesn't mean Gods didn't control their Ki in the exhibition........

 

[Maitreya12]

By your reasoning, Vegito VS Zamas fight should've destroyed the Universe, but they only destroyed buildings.

That is not my reasoning at all, please reread the post. I did not dismiss the notion of ki control being a thing all together. However your notion that the GOD’s are using ki control to protect the WoV from any damages makes less sense and requires a larger assumption than to say not given the nature of GOD’s as well as the area they were in plus how each character, both GOD and not have affected the WoV in regards to their power.

It’s all about which claim is more reasonable under the circumstances. This is not about whether or not ki control is a thing or not.

 

[Maitreya12]

Just becouse Goku has Ki control, that doesn't mean Gods didn't control their Ki in the exhibition........

Just because the GOD’s have ki control doesn’t mean they were actively using it to protect the WoV from their own power…..

 

[ZillertheBucko]

This did not address the points brought up because it is a larger assumption to make in regards to the GOD’s. Goku, the same character who has fantastic ki control, when in state all about control and precision to an even greater degree than the GOD’s themselves, still shook the WoV by his power by exuded alone. The same cannot be said about the 3 GOD’s who also noticeably powered up and affected the world around them. Which very much goes in line with how Jiren is said to have surpassed GOD level way way before he even went full power let alone went limit breaker.

Characters still don’t use their full destructive power like, almost ever. The world of void isn’t a 2-C structure to begin with, are you saying that if they used their full DC they wouldn’t be able to shake it? This is just objectively impossible logic.

 

[Maitreya12]

Characters still don’t use their full destructive power like, almost ever. The world of void isn’t a 2-C structure to begin with, are you saying that if they used their full DC they wouldn’t be able to shake it? This is just objectively impossible logic.

Clearly when GOD’s fight they are most certainly using very minimal ki control given the very rule about GOD’s fighting in the first place.

Also the WoV doesn’t need to be a 2C structure to have 2C durability, I believe this was brought up earlier in the thread as well.

 

[Quantu]

If there weren’t a discussion rule I’d be destroying you rn

regardless as for this thread’s topic, there is not gonna be any destruction scaling and that seems to be final

I don't even care about the nuances of Tier 2 Zamasu, I'm just pointing out implying because there's never been an instance of an infinite amp from 3-A to High 3-A showcased in the series, it can not be true. One of the worst things I've heard today and I could list out soo many verses that bridge the gap without an in series mention of an "infinite amp"

But whatever it's off topic

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Clearly when GOD’s fight they are most certainly using very minimal ki control given the very rule about GOD’s fighting in the first place.

Also the WoV doesn’t need to be a 2C structure to have 2C durability, I believe this was brought up earlier in the thread as well.

It doesn’t have ANY durability, it’s literally not matter, it does not exist, its VOID

 

[Maitreya12]

It doesn’t have ANY durability, it’s literally not matter, it does not exist, its VOID

I’m pretty sure it’s not labeled as an actual void by Vs battle standards though I have to double check. But regardless the entire structure can still clearly be shifted and shook which is the whole point of the argument.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Even if it did have dura, that wouldn’t change the ability to shake it since nobody actually “damaged” the world of void. Even if a character is tier 0, if they only weight 70 pounds you can still lift or shake them if they’re not resisting, which a void (inanimate object (not even an object, it’s a void)) does not do.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I’m pretty sure it’s not labeled as an actual void by Vs battle standards though I have to double check. But regardless the entire structure can still clearly be shifted and shook which is the whole point of the argument.

Well it’s empty space, idrc about the semantics here

 

[Maitreya12]

Even if it did have dura, that wouldn’t change the ability to shake it since nobody actually “damaged” the world of void. Even if a character is tier 0, if they only weight 70 pounds you can still lift or shake them if they’re not resisting, which a void (inanimate object (not even an object, it’s a void)) does not do.

Well to shake something infinite in size requires infinite energy to do so…

Also again regardless because the WoV resisted being shook by the 3 GOD’s clashing but still shook just from Jiren and Goku powering up each.

This is also in line with his Toppo shifted the WoV to an even greater extent than the 3 GOD’s did and also in line with the numerous statements of Jiren being GOD level if not above even while heavily suppressed. Let alone in a limit breaker state. So the notion that they do surpass these 3 GOD’s or the 2 GOD’s destruction feat is supported within the series.

 

[Maitreya12]

Anyways, gotta dip but I’ll probably do a head count of who agreed and disagrees before doing so.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Well to shake something infinite in size requires infinite energy to do so…

Yes that’s what we call a high 3-A feat

Also again regardless because the WoV resisted being shook by the 3 GOD’s clashing but still shook just from Jiren and Goku powering up each.

DC vs AP
it’s not consistent, and it doesn’t matter who shakes what if the feat itself isn’t 2-C

This is also in line with his Toppo shifted the WoV to an even greater extent than the 3 GOD’s did and also in line with the numerous statements of Jiren being GOD level if not above even while heavily suppressed. Let alone in a limit breaker state. So the notion that they do surpass these 3 GOD’s or the 2 GOD’s destruction feat is supported within the series.

This is still unrelated to the world of void feat, which is still not 2-C

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

If it's empty space, it's still a spatial structure,so it has some kind of durability.

Basic logic.

 

[ImmortalDread]

The latter most likely, as you’d end up with 2-B SSB Gogeta otherwise

hopes this is satire

 

[ZillertheBucko]

If it's empty space, it's still a spatial structure,so it has some kind of durability.

Basic logic.

You explained why it doesn’t have dura and then said “so it has some kind of dura”
Either way there’s nothing to suggest the hypothetical dura of the thing is anything near 2-C

 

[Darksmash]

However your notion that the GOD’s are using ki control to protect the WoV from any damages makes less sense and requires a larger assumption than to say not given the nature of GOD’s as well as the area they were in plus how each character, both GOD and not have affected the WoV in regards to their power.

There are tons of instances where two characters fighting in DB should have no motivation to preserve their environment but the environmental damage is still much less than what it should have been. DB has never been consistent with its environment damage.

The fact is that ki control works however it wants and environmental damage has no set rules or pattern in DBS. Unless you have something to prove that the GoDs were going all out along with the intention to unleash all their DC/range of ki damage nothing here proves any kind of scaling to 2-C.