Gotta Revise 'Em All, Part 1: Splitting the Pokemon Canons (Massive Pokemon CRT)

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yes, basically that. I'm not into different characters between different media scaling to each other because they look similar or because they fought the "same character" between the different media (The background story of each individual character is original material for most media outside of a few key components in some material, such as Masters depiction of the game characters being "in-canon"), it's really mostly about the inner workings of the world such as the nature of certain moves or the cosmology as a whole.
The legendaries could be a special case as a lot of them are basically walking lore pieces in regards to the world itself, but even them what is inconsistent will remain inconsistent no matter what, what I say about consistent worldviews is really just about that non-contradicted stuff.

As Masuda himself gave the example, the background lore that Pokémon speak their own name is Anime-exclusive in relationship to the game as that is not the case with the games (Other than a few outliers). Contradictory stuff clearly isn't going to cross-scale (Such as Pokémon saying their own names in the anime, but not in the
games), but non-contradictory general background stuff is officially on the table to be used (Such as the wars in the Pokémon world first revealed in Lucario and the Mystery of Mew).

Wouldn’t this have more to do with the human characters though? Rather than the Pokémon?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Yes, basically that. I'm not into different characters between different media scaling to each other because they look similar or because they fought the "same character" between the different media (The background story of each individual character is original material for most media outside of a few key components in some material, such as Masters depiction of the game characters being "in-canon"), it's really mostly about the inner workings of the world such as the nature of certain moves or the cosmology as a whole.
The legendaries could be a special case as a lot of them are basically walking lore pieces in regards to the world itself, but even them what is inconsistent will remain inconsistent no matter what, what I say about consistent worldviews is really just about that non-contradicted stuff.

As Masuda himself gave the example, the background lore that Pokémon speak their own name is Anime-exclusive in relationship to the game as that is not the case with the games (Other than a few outliers). Contradictory stuff clearly isn't going to cross-scale (Such as Pokémon saying their own names in the anime, but not in the
games), but non-contradictory general background stuff is officially on the table to be used (Such as the wars in the Pokémon world first revealed in Lucario and the Mystery of Mew).

Yeah, essentially we need proof. Solid proof and reasoning that there isn’t any contradictions between different media and so and so forth.

 

[Sniper670]

God I'm tired of hearing "contradiction" without knowing where that comes from

 

[HammerStrikes219]

God I'm tired of hearing "contradiction" without knowing where that comes from

And I am tired of ppl thinking there can not been narrative inconsistencies that involve different timelines with different history and so on and so forth.

Anyway, I am neutral overall since this is more complicated as we talking about years of lore… Make it decades anyway

 

[Ayewale]

Bigass post hours

1. Accusing me of 'lying' about Pokemon is extremely rude and uncalled for. I've put a lot of work into this CRT and you're poisoning the well right off the bat. You couldn't even assume I made a mistake, you had to assume malicious intent, after I dmed you beforehand to check and you didn't respond???
2. Trying to get a topic ban of this is also very bad faith as it is an incredibly legitimate discussion, as seen by how almost 10 people have agreed with me in a day.
3. The inconsistencies between canons cannot simply be dismissed as 'oh the Pokemon Multiverse is very large'. There isn't any proof that they share a Multiverse, wiki policy assumes that different mediums = different canons unless explicitly stated otherwise no matter how similar they look, and I am aware that a multiverse exists. My canon breakdown acknowledges so multiple times...
4. Pokemon profiles being species pages does not mean that they suddenly don't function the same way that the rest of the wiki works, too; you still have to prove that the stories share the same canon, otherwise you can't equalize anything. We do not equalize Autobots like this despite their species having several similarities in all versions of their canon, and we don't go through any other species like this as well. Pokemon should not be the exception to the rule.
   1. On a sidenote, I do not know how Digimon works. For all I know it could be extremely ****** up too, but I don't have the knowledge to comment on it.
5. I read through Executor's blog before making this post and read through it again in the comments. I was literally just talking about it. This is the third thing you've said that's in very bad faith. I can only assume you haven't read my post because if you did you wouldn't make this comment.

1. You bring up some interesting points about the crossover standards and while I didn't read through the standards pretty thoroughly, my point still stands on both games:
   1. "Pokemon Conquest in no way shape or form an actual crossover between Pokemon and Nobunaga's ambition." This is objectively untrue. Every single warlord in Pokemon Conquest is based off warlords from Nobunaga's Ambition; their designs were altered significantly to match the tone of Pokemon and to match their partner Pokemon, but they are still the same. Nobunaga in particular is the exact same character in both verses. You probably didn't know so I don't blame you, but they are 100% a crossover and should be sused as proof of scaling. The portrayal of Arceus being consistent with Pokemon canon isn't proof of this, either: I'd argue the goal of the majority of crossovers is to be accurate to their source material.
   2. We do scale with Pokken Tournament and Conquest as Mewtwo has a Shadow key and some of Arceus's powers cite Pokemon Conquest.
   3. You're very correct in saying that Pokken Tournament doesn't meet crossover standards and I will concede there!
   4. Saying that them being collaborations between crossovers makes them useable is a non-factor. On some level, early every media crossover is a collaboration between two different companies, because otherwise the crossover wouldn't exist.
   5. Pokken Tournament does not meet the standards for being a crossover, I will fully admit. Yet since the director, when asked if Shadow Mewtwo was canon, he was completely unsure, that seems like good evidence that at the very least that should not be scaled. Since that's pretty much the only thing we use from Pokken, it seems like I'm still correct, in spite of your good points.
2. The Pokemon profiles break AU rules because:
   1. Them being species profiles still doesn't mean that they are automatically composite
   2. We refuse to scale alternate universes to each other unless there is an explicit statement about them being canon to each other. This is why the marvel 616 universe is not automatically scaled to any of the wider multiverse, even ones that seem extremely similar, because we assume they are not to be cross-scaled unless they directly clash. If we assume that the Pokemon mediums all exist in the same multiverse, we still can't cross-scale them.

1. "Who cares about what other verses do with their continuties?" The entire wiki. It is not whataboutism to bring up how Pokemon pages do not fit in at all with the rest of the wiki's framework, and bringing up very similar examples is only proof of this. "The wiki does X, this verse works like Y, we should change it to X" is the basis for most of the website...it's how you follow the rules. The reasons why we even delete profiles at all is because those profiles do Y while others do X, and X is the rules so ones that do Y get deleted.
   1. "Who cares what other verses do with their continuities?" You do, at the very least, because you brought up Digimon. Seems like we both care at least a little

1. Assumng that they take place in the same multiverse is, again, contrary to how the wiki works. We assume that most of the greater star wars content (pre-Disney) is canon because they are explicitly stated to be canon, and even then we do not consider all material secondary or even tertiary canon by default. We assume that all marvel content takes place in the same omniverse because they all have explicit designations (every tv show has an official Earth). We do notassume that the HP movies or the LOTR movies take place in the same multiverse as their book's canon, because despite how accurate both of these are to their source material, merely being very accurate and sharing lots of similarities isn't proof of a multiversal connection. Connecting different mediums assumes incredibly strong proof, ala SW & Marvel, proof that Pokemon does not have. In my opinion, of course.
   1. Alain does not exist in the games. What you cited is a fun easter egg, not definite proof of him existing. Bulbapedia (which we consider as a source) doesn't even have a section about him being in the games because he isn't in the games. A nod to another franchise character isn't enough to consider them canon because again, otherwise, our profiles for every other large media franchise would look dramatically different.
   2. All of the Pokemon themed around Ash could only ever refer to a different version of him. They're marketing gimmicks; they couldn't possibly refer to anime ash because that would make the anime canon to the games, which is...very, very impossible.
   3. Good point about Manga Eevee being different not being a factor.
   4. Few things on the type immunities:
      1. I did not claim that type advantages and disadvantages exist. You gotta admit that you pulled that one out of nowhere.
      2. But it's not just pikachu ignoring ground-types. Ash's Pokemon get affected by toxic spikes even when they're flying Pokemon, or Steel Wing being used to circumvent electric attacks into the ground. It's pretty consistent throughout the anime that type immunities are a lot looser than they are in the games.
   5. It doesn't seem like you disagree with my point. Yes, your examples are true...but you didn't say that mine aren't? The moves are still portrayed in ways that differ greatly from the games, and you did not dispute this, you only stated that it's inconsistent with it's portrayal. Which isn't wrong, but doesn't prove me wrong either.
   6. Deoxys having a completely different power-set from the movies is not game mechanics, at all. Pokemon games are more than capable of showing off the powers of legendary Pokemon in their animations, the lore stated by NPCs, in the pokedex or with unique attacks. Deoxys powers are represented in exactly none of those. It can't be dismissed as 'game mechanics' because this isn't concerning game mechanics at all, it's concerning the lore.
      1. Also, deoxys being unable to change forms is canon. In older games, you had to have different catridges for that, but even in the later games that significantly changed the lore, Deoxys still needs to interact with specific meteorites to change forms. There is no proof in-game that it can change forms mid-battle, either.
      2. He has a different power level depending on the continuity. In-game he could be assumed to destroy the continent, in the manga the meteor is shown to explicitly destroy the planet.
   7. I do not suggest that information has to be 1 to 1...in fact I'm arguing the opposite. I'm arguing that you can't equalize pokedex entries because they're so different. I apologize if you misread your point but we seem to agree that pokedex entries vary wildly.
   8. The 'creator statement that makes it canon' is the same that makes the rest of it 'canon'; that the TCG tries to follow artistic rules for the pokemon universe for the sake of keeping a cohesive brand (in this case, being a 'pokemon encyclopedia'). But trying to be accurate alone doesn't make something canon.

1. "Absolutely nothing here indicates they have different cosmologies". So the anime and games having different, exclusive dimensions & realities is not proof of a different cosmology. It is. I'm not being mean but that's just...how things work on the wiki.
2. You misunderstood my point. I didn't say that Pokemon in the games and anime are incapable of dying. I said that several characters die in the manga that would make their plots irreconciliable with the games and anime (and the circumstances of some of these deaths are unique, too, but that's besides the point).
3. I already addressed the arguments about the multiverse and 'whataboutism' earlier but for the sake of repetition, yes, it does matter. If you feel like it doesn't matter you should make a post in wiki management about how the rules on verses shouldn't be consistent, but for now it's absolutely important.
4. Different characters existing at once is evidence against the verses being equal because these different characters behave very differently and sometimes have completely different ratings, pokemon and even powers.

No offense to the OP, but this post is basically just a fancified bunch of nothing but nonsense, misinformation, lack of info on the verse, which is nothing new from these attempts at trying to separate the canons, and arguably lying even. Half of what was written here was just nonsensically wrong info and claims about stuff that supposedly didn't happen, which they indeed did, such as this false narrative of pokemon not having type immunities or relationships in the anime when they've indeed had this for decades, or that death somehows not a thing in pokemon. Some info was discussing things that didn't even have anything to do with the actual points they were supposed to be for. A lot of this just ignores the fact that parallel worlds existing (especially infinite ones) and doing similar but different things is basic Multiverse shenanegans 101, and tries using other series as some kind of excuse to knock Pokemon down when that's textbook whataboutism when they dont have any sort of similar treatment or similar kind of canonicity rules as Pokemon does, and probably worst of all, the OP's arguments ignores the blatant and simple fact that Pokemon takes on the appearance of composite pages (when it's very much not composited) because the vast majority of the pages are covering what each Pokemon species is capable of doing without alterations or variants that are specially and uniquely trained to do specific stuff that sets them apart from their species.

Overall, this attempt at arguing for the seperation of Pokemon canons just doesn't hold, and im completely against any sort of separation under any circumstance, and if anything, an attempt like this makes me more convinced that after this, a discussion rule is needed ASAP for this.[/spoiler]

No offense to you, but you're being incredibly rude for no reason. Half of the claims you made were misunderstandings of my points (I never said type immunities didn't exist, never said death 'wasn't a thing in the games or anime'), completely ignoring the wiki's standards ('I don't give a damn about other verses'), or assuming that the verse should automatically scale to each other due to being somewhat accurate. The profiles don't take on the 'appearance' of being composited, they just are, and the verse page says so, too.

 

[Ayewale]

Wonderful response, but that doesnt answer my question.

Name me a single thing across any of these universes on a pokemon species being treated differently please.

1. Type immunities are circumvented in ways that are not possible in the games.
2. PP as a mechanic exists in the manga and anime and is only very vaguely alluded to in the anime.
3. Pokemon moves being portrayed in very different and/or inconsistent ways when compared to the games.
4. Legendary Pokemon being portrayed with a vast array of abilities they didn't possess in the original games, nor their remakes, nor the game's lore or pokedex entries.
5. In general, scaling chains. The non-legendary pokemon profiles depend almost exclusively on scaling to other Pokemon, and some of these chains bounce between anime, manga and game feats without any monitoring.

 

[Ayewale]

Nobody in this thread has also provided a counterargument to the fact that this treatment of Pokemon's verse is completely incongruent with how literally any verse on the wiki is treated. I've brought up examples such as Marvel, Star Wars, LOTR and Transformers and the response has been either nothing or the insistence that they don't matter because they are other verses. But they are not just other verses, they're examples of wiki policy. If the Pokemon profiles as a whole break a fundamental rule about the wiki, then you should debate it.

You cannot dismiss it as whataboutism.

 

[Scottycj256]

If there's a genuine reason why Pokémon is treated as composite I'd like to hear it

otherwise I agree with splitting up the canons

 

[Ayewale]

also just so we are on the same page here, in the case that this goes through, you are the one(s) who is(are) going to make the pages, cause the moment this goes through i am effing off to another verse and not coming back.

Cool.

 

[Ayewale]

If there's a genuine reason why Pokémon is treated as composite I'd like to hear it

otherwise I agree with splitting up the canons

Executor's point of view is that general information on the settings of Pokemon can be equalized since it is all under strict management. I am neutral on this POV because it doesn't really concern profiles much.

Kukui's point of view is more nuanced and harder to summarize but he argues that the differences between the mediums can all be summarized as the verse being one big multiverse. He also has said multiple times, verbatim, that the wiki policy on other verses doesn't matter and that pokemon should be exempt.

 

[Arceus0x]

If there's a genuine reason why Pokémon is treated as composite I'd like to hear it

otherwise I agree with splitting up the canons

every reply from executor and kukui says why it isn't a composite. It is a species profile composed of stats and abilities consistent across the media that is set in one multiverse.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Responding to counters with counters now

 

[Ayewale]

The games are limited in what can be shown. An example is the psychic Pokémon

Psychic Pokémon for instance, are capable of much more, but are stuck behind 4 move limit due to game mechanics.

This line of argument is a mute point. Pokemon is not 'limited by game mechanics' at all: the capabilities of individual Pokemon can be easily expressed through Pokedex entries (that there are multiple of), statements from other NPCs (that give extraneous lore about other Pokemon often) or through animes confirmed to be canon (like Origins, Twilight Wings and whatnot). There's also unique, custom moves to express these unique capabilities either. And for legendary Pokemon, they have entire plotlines worth of ways to demonstrate their powers, as well their own unique cutscenes.

 

[Scottycj256]

Executor's point of view is that general information on the settings of Pokemon can be equalized since it is all under strict management.

Kukui's point of view is more nuanced and harder to summarize but he argues that the differences between the mediums can all be summarized as the verse being one big multiverse.

See image above.

But being serious for a second, is there anything actually substantial about the different timelines that justify cross-scaling?

 

[Ayewale]

his/her reply

I would not like to put words into their mouth on that account. Personally, not enough to justify compositing their profiles.

 

[Scottycj256]

I would not like to put words into their mouth on that account. Personally, not enough to justify compositing their profiles.

I agree with the canon split then

 

[Scottycj256]

This also means we can actually calc the individual games now and get separate feats for every timeline

assuming this actually goes through

 

[Arceus0x]

This also means we can actually calc the individual games now and get separate feats for every timeline

assuming this actually goes through

if this goes through, good luck with that

 

[Sniper670]

Ayewale will take care of that.

So basically there will be anime species Pikachu, and game species Pikachu, with the difference being one can say it's name and the other cannot

Makes sense to me. Nicee

 

[Ayewale]

Ayewale will take care of that.

So basically there will be anime species Pikachu, and game species Pikachu, with the difference being one can say it's name and the other cannot

Makes sense to me. Nicee

In the original post I explicitly stated that some Pokemon are similar enough to have only one profile and so wouldn't need to have multiple :/

 

[Ayewale]

I'd go with what Executor_N0 said. The shared universe thing works for Pokémon

Executor agrees with me that legendaries shouldn't be cross-scaled. His argument is that background details should be considered canon across all of the mediums since those are apparently monitored a lot by the pokemon company, but he doesn't seem to actually agree with the idea that all verses share a canon, nor does his blog.

Oh hey, the hundredth post.

 

[Scottycj256]

if lying and being blatantly misinformed on a whole bunch of details counts as “more sense”, I’m going to ask you actually re read the counters set against the OP please.

Blatantly states that he doesn't care how the wiki handles other verses

"Oh OP is misinforming you and lying because he's trying to follow the rules"
lmaoooooooooooo

 

[Scottycj256]

If there's anything that actually requires a canon/cosmology split it's Pokémon, not ******* DC like the DC supporters are trying to do for god knows what reason

 

[Executor_N0]

Nobody in this thread has also provided a counterargument to the fact that this treatment of Pokemon's verse is completely incongruent with how literally any verse on the wiki is treated. I've brought up examples such as Marvel, Star Wars, LOTR and Transformers and the response has been either nothing or the insistence that they don't matter because they are other verses. But they are not just other verses, they're examples of wiki policy. If the Pokemon profiles as a whole break a fundamental rule about the wiki, then you should debate it.

You cannot dismiss it as whataboutism.

I mean, if we need another example I can just say Digimon and then start a long discussion around how that is a basis for why I'm even discussing this, to begin with, but this is mostly unnecessary because I don't see how other series determine their rules matters anything in a series that has their own defined rules. In the end, we are just going to need to revise the Canon page to take notice of such works or exceptions (Such as the IDW/Game Sonic or Dragon Ball Z Kakarot thing I mentioned before), however, that isn't necessary look in more detail at what is on the Canon page.

"The generally agreed-upon definition is that the work by the original author and creator of the fictional setting is canonical, unless the author or the copyright holder declares otherwise. Few other exceptions are also possible and should be noted on the verse page."

Exceptions to the standard understanding are possible and franchises can have their unique understandings of "canon" (As understood by what is accepted on the main pages of the Wiki) as long as it's explained why they have such unorthodox rules.

The problem with not accepting the consistent background stuff is that is just going to go against the official description that it's something we should do. Such as Hiroyuki Jinnai's clarifications about "Detective Pikachu" and how it "fits" with canon or Masuda's own words in regards to "Lucario and the Mystery of Mew", or how the TCG Cards are created as pages from the Pokémon Encyclopedia, or Special/Adventure's intent of properly showcasing what the Pokémon moves can really do outside of gameplay limitations. All this stuff that has to do with affecting the game's canon is supervised to be sure that it fits with it, and when it deviates from it, there's an explanation for it why it was possible during that moment.

I personally don't see individual characters being scalable between media unless it has a story reason for that being possible. Abilities and pokémon moves as a whole are the kinds of stuff that I think could be scaled, at least as "this move has this detail explained in this media", with some outliers having their own explanation for why they are different when possible (Such as why Mewtwo's Psywave is different from other Pokémon in the manga), most really unique power feats aren't done by like, the one standard wild Pokémon, but rather by well trainer ones or really strong wild ones, so those aren't really a basis for a "standard" species member.

If it was something like "This is a visual demonstration of the generic stuff that the species can do according to the Pokédex", but showcased in a different media, I think that is an example of something that can be used between different works.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

1. Accusing me of 'lying' about Pokemon is extremely rude and uncalled for. I've put a lot of work into this CRT and you're poisoning the well right off the bat. You couldn't even assume I made a mistake, you had to assume malicious intent, after I dmed you beforehand to check and you didn't respond???

Maybe if you didn't try coming across as having as much knowledge on this verse as you claim you do, when the lack of knowledge is very clear, and didn't try using that as a means to attempt at making probably one of the biggest revisions this verse would be facing, then that wouldn't have happened. Sorry if I come across as rude, but the lack of knowledge and misinformation being presented here is not going to be something im going to take lightly here.

And for the record, I didn't answer because i've literally be off this wikia for weeks because of other pressing matters, having to force myself to participate in this discussion, an obviously high level revision for a verse I main.

1. Trying to get a topic ban of this is also very bad faith as it is an incredibly legitimate discussion, as seen by how almost 10 people have agreed with me in a day.

You mean 10 people who hardly know a thing about pokemon on this site, are not exactly considered experts on it, and for a discussion that has happened here several times and have all ended the exact same way.

And given the quick responses to this thread and the lack of people who have even noticed the counters to this, trying to get a topic ban on something that has been discussed numerous times on this site is not what's in bad faith. But im going to focus on the actual discussion before I start saying things i'll regret.

1. The inconsistencies between canons cannot simply be dismissed as 'oh the Pokemon Multiverse is very large'. There isn't any proof that they share a Multiverse, wiki policy assumes that different mediums = different canons unless explicitly stated otherwise no matter how similar they look, and I am aware that a multiverse exists. My canon breakdown acknowledges so multiple times...

Besides the fact that in this particular series, canons being considered alternate universes is already an accepted practice, ON top of multiverse shenanigans' where everything, even down to the literal game files of each copy of a pokemon game, is considered a parallel universe.

That, and the lack of, you know, relevant consistencies that pertains to continuity here.

1. Pokemon profiles being species pages does not mean that they suddenly don't function the same way that the rest of the wiki works, too; you still have to prove that the stories share the same canon, otherwise you can't equalize anything. We do not equalize Autobots like this despite their species having several similarities in all versions of their canon, and we don't go through any other species like this as well. Pokemon should not be the exception to the rule.
   1. On a sidenote, I do not know how Digimon works. For all I know it could be extremely ****** up too, but I don't have the knowledge to comment on it.

False equivalnce when autobots are not treated as a species in the way that you are trying to portray them as here, because they are all not literally the same exact being. Optimus Prime and Bumblebee are both autobots in the species, as much as Goku and Vegeta are both apart of the Saiyans species. But they are all completely different characters, not all apart of the same lineage.

2 wild Pikachu are considered the exact same as one another because both are literally the same exact creature. You can't argue both of these being the same cases.

You're argument here would hold weight if you tried saying Ash's pikachu is different from your ordinary run of the mill one, which it of course is, but we already don't equalize character specific pokemon with what the generic pokemon creature is capable of.

• You bring up some interesting points about the crossover standards and while I didn't read through the standards pretty thoroughly, my point still stands on both games:

"Pokemon Conquest in no way shape or form an actual crossover between Pokemon and Nobunaga's ambition." This is objectively untrue. Every single warlord in Pokemon Conquest is based off warlords from Nobunaga's Ambition;

Thank you for admitting im right, because you used the exact key word here that proves my point. "Based off".

That is literally not what a crossover is, they're based off Nobunaga's amibition because both franchises collaborated on Conquest. The actual characters from Nobunga's Ambition don't appear in Conquest, and they most definitely don't fight against the actual Pokemon, which is what our crossover rules, again, focus on.

The only thing relevant about crossover rules is banning the use of feats done between the 2 franchises that are crossing over with each other, and any scaling between them. That's it. If Conquest actually did this, then you would be right to not allow those feats. But guess what? They don't. There's absolutely no cross scaling done between the franchises, it is still a pokemon game with pokemon fighting the pokemon, so there is absolutely

Not

One

Single

Rule

About crossover feats being broken, because there are no crossover feats in Conquest. Same thing with Pokken. Again, do we see any Tekken characters running around in Pokken? No we don't.

The portrayal of Arceus being consistent with Pokemon canon isn't proof of this, either: I'd argue the goal of the majority of crossovers is to be accurate to their source material.

Saying it isn't =/= it actually isnt

Meanwhile, I have an actual point on why its proof of canon, because Arceus is still recognized as the creator of everything in Conquests world just as it is in the source material and every pokemon media. Crossover's aren't required to be accurate to source material when it's involving 2 universes, and if it's staying true to one, that's just an argument to make it canon to that particular series. Our crossover page even points this out that crossovers can be canon to one side and not neccessarily the other.

We do scale with Pokken Tournament and Conquest as Mewtwo has a Shadow key and some of Arceus's powers cite Pokemon Conquest.

You missed the point about what I said above. Pokken Tournament and Conquest don't break crossover rules because there's no scaling in any way between Pokemon and Tekken/Nobunaga's Ambition. THAT'S what would be banned under the crossover rules.

Saying that them being collaborations between crossovers makes them useable is a non-factor. On some level, early every media crossover is a collaboration between two different companies, because otherwise the crossover wouldn't exist.

Im not arguing that Pokken and Conquest should be canon because theyre collaborations. If anything, an argument for Pokken should be made for why it should be considered, as far as im concerned, I only gave an argument for Conquest.

1. Pokken Tournament does not meet the standards for being a crossover, I will fully admit. Yet since the director, when asked if Shadow Mewtwo was canon, he was completely unsure, that seems like good evidence that at the very least that should not be scaled. Since that's pretty much the only thing we use from Pokken, it seems like I'm still correct, in spite of your good points.

This isn't what the director said though. He's saying that Shadow Mewtwo is obviously canon in the context of Pokken's story, but that he can't comment on whether or not TPC will use Shadow Mewtwo in the future or not. This isn't specifying that he doesn't know if it's canon or not.

The Pokemon profiles break AU rules because:

Them being species profiles still doesn't mean that they are automatically composite

It would because a pokemon species has no different depiction across any Pokemon media, they're all considered exactly the same pokemon in capabilities.

1. We refuse to scale alternate universes to each other unless there is an explicit statement about them being canon to each other. This is why the marvel 616 universe is not automatically scaled to any of the wider multiverse, even ones that seem extremely similar, because we assume they are not to be cross-scaled unless they directly clash. If we assume that the Pokemon mediums all exist in the same multiverse, we still can't cross-scale them.

Again, this returns to my species vs characters point because they are treated differently. Marvel characters, are that, characters. Each with their own individual histories, storylines, narratives, they are considered different people, which is why they cant be composited.

Pokemon across all pokemon mediums that are not specifically treated as characters are exactly the same because there's no difference between them. If you take a Pikachu or a Tyranitar from 2 parallel universes and put them together, what differences are there? None. They are still the same as any run of the mill Pikachu and Tyranitar, there's nothing altered about them that gives them something the species can't naturally replicate on their own.

"Who cares about what other verses do with their continuties?" The entire wiki. It is not whataboutism to bring up how Pokemon pages do not fit in at all with the rest of the wiki's framework, and bringing up very similar examples is only proof of this.

Except you have yet to bring up an actual similar example, all of your examples are literally false equivalances. You have yet to even reference a verse where canons are treated as alternate worlds, which by then, I could start taking the comparison seriously.

The ONE example where their canonicity rules can actually be compared to Pokemon was Digimon, and they do the same thing with their own profiles, yet I don't see a single person here arguing against what they can and cannot use (Note: this isn't me targetting Digimon, I agree with how their pages are done, I bring them up as an example to show both Pokemon and Digimon should be allowed this)

"The wiki does X, this verse works like Y, we should change it to X" is the basis for most of the website...it's how you follow the rules. The reasons why we even delete profiles at all is because those profiles do Y while others do X, and X is the rules so ones that do Y get deleted.

Except that blatantly ignores the key fact that a thing called case by case basis is a thing. I don't care what the rules are if a verse has an argument, and evidence, of their case being different, and Pokemon is one of those such cases. You can't put everything under one thing when they all work differently. It's just that simple.

Assumng that they take place in the same multiverse is, again, contrary to how the wiki works. We assume that most of the greater star wars content (pre-Disney) is canon because they are explicitly stated to be canon, and even then we do not consider all material secondary or even tertiary canon by default. We assume that all marvel content takes place in the same omniverse because they all have explicit designations (every tv show has an official Earth). We do notassume that the HP movies or the LOTR movies take place in the same multiverse as their book's canon, because despite how accurate both of these are to their source material, merely being very accurate and sharing lots of similarities isn't proof of a multiversal connection. Connecting different mediums assumes incredibly strong proof, ala SW & Marvel, proof that Pokemon does not have. In my opinion, of course.

Again,. im going to ask a simple question and I want an answer. Do any of these verses you named have ANY level of evidence that specifies their canons being considered parallel universes to each other?

Yes or no?

If no, then they are all thrown out as false equivalances by default. We don't consider the canons in Pokemon alternate worlds simply by speculating, we consider them parallel worlds because the practice of doing such is already a confirmed thing, on top of all the multiverse shenenagans it has combined with said practice.

Alain does not exist in the games. What you cited is a fun easter egg, not definite proof of him existing. Bulbapedia (which we consider as a source) doesn't even have a section about him being in the games because he isn't in the games.

Ah nice, you don't have a real argument, so your only point is "fun easter egg".

It most definitely is evidence, because Alain, again, is the ONLY character in the history of any Pokemon medium Steven knows that has a black charizard. You can't downgrade that to just an easter egg instead of an explicit proof when you cant debunk it.

And its hilarious you mention Bulbpedia when, on that very same source, it's confirmed that if you have Stevens shiny beldum with you when you speak to him in the Delta Episode, he confirms that he and the trainer with the black charizard long ago fought against Mega Rayquaza. That is literally a full on reference to the plot of the Mega Evolution specials from the XY anime.

Not to mention Bulbpedia literally links Alains page to this note on Steven.

A nod to another franchise character isn't enough to consider them canon because again, otherwise, our profiles for every other large media franchise would look dramatically different.

When both canons are confirmed parallel worlds to each other, they are. I don't care what other verses do if they don't do anything like the former. Again, stop with the whataboutism.

All of the Pokemon themed around Ash could only ever refer to a different version of him. They're marketing gimmicks; they couldn't possibly refer to anime ash because that would make the anime canon to the games, which is...very, very impossible.

So your literal only response to this is that "it can't be true because then the anime is canon to the games, which just cant be true!" ?

.......................Seriously?

Few things on the type immunities:

1. I did not claim that type advantages and disadvantages exist. You gotta admit that you pulled that one out of nowhere.
2. But it's not just pikachu ignoring ground-types. Ash's Pokemon get affected by toxic spikes even when they're flying Pokemon, or Steel Wing being used to circumvent electric attacks into the ground. It's pretty consistent throughout the anime that type immunities are a lot looser than they are in the games.

Because the anime doesnt have whats called game mechanics. The anime has a more realistic take on Pokémon battling where things aren’t static or, you know, turn based. Why this would be an argument is beyond me.

1. It doesn't seem like you disagree with my point. Yes, your examples are true...but you didn't say that mine aren't? The moves are still portrayed in ways that differ greatly from the games, and you did not dispute this, you only stated that it's inconsistent with it's portrayal. Which isn't wrong, but doesn't prove me wrong either.

I mean, it can also be due to the fact that again, since anime fights are a more realistic tale than the games which are riddled with game mechanics, moves being portrayed in different forms can be because Pokémon use moves differently compared to each other?

1. Deoxys having a completely different power-set from the movies is not game mechanics, at all. Pokemon games are more than capable of showing off the powers of legendary Pokemon in their animations, the lore stated by NPCs, in the pokedex or with unique attacks.

Except they literally CANT. Do you seriously believe that a Celebi can time travel in the middle of a game battle where we don’t have that option as part of the battling mechanics?

Dialga time stopping opponents?

Palkia warping space to **** with us?

Jirachi making a wish when it wants?

Kygore drowning the battle field?

All of these lore based abilities can’t be used in battle because they aren’t options in battle. You know, options like the actual move attacks.

So yes, it is 110% game mechanics.

1. Deoxys powers are represented in exactly none of those. It can't be dismissed as 'game mechanics' because this isn't concerning game mechanics at all, it's concerning the lore.

This also has to do with the fact that lore abilities can’t be shown in game unless a literal cutscene for the Pokémon is made. Deoxys has all but one.

Also, deoxys being unable to change forms is canon. In older games, you had to have different catridges for that, but even in the later games that significantly changed the lore, Deoxys still needs to interact with specific meteorites to change forms. There is no proof in-game that it can change forms mid-battle, either.

You mean a meteor that Deoxys is literally born from?

He has a different power level depending on the continuity. In-game he could be assumed to destroy the continent, in the manga the meteor is shown to explicitly destroy the planet.

If this is in reference to Deoxys’s meteor, it being planet level is a thing in both continuities. The only actual difference is the manga going into more detail with the destruction from it.

I do not suggest that information has to be 1 to 1...in fact I'm arguing the opposite. I'm arguing that you can't equalize pokedex entries because they're so different. I apologize if you misread your point but we seem to agree that pokedex entries vary wildly.

But…I don’t agree. The simple and common sense answer is that species of creatures, especially ones as complex as Pokémon, all have layers and layers of information about them. It doesn’t mean they vary, it means NEW information is added to already existing information….

The 'creator statement that makes it canon' is the same that makes the rest of it 'canon'; that the TCG tries to follow artistic rules for the pokemon universe for the sake of keeping a cohesive brand (in this case, being a 'pokemon encyclopedia'). But trying to be accurate alone doesn't make something canon.

As far as I’m concerned the pages don’t even use TCG abilities so this I’m putting a pin on atm to discuss the more important sources.

"Absolutely nothing here indicates they have different cosmologies". So the anime and games having different, exclusive dimensions & realities is not proof of a different cosmology. It is. I'm not being mean but that's just...how things work on the wiki.

See above on games and anime being confirmed parallel worlds. Even then the game has a **** ton of parallel world phenomena anyway and this is a verse with an infinite number of universes.

You misunderstood my point. I didn't say that Pokemon in the games and anime are incapable of dying. I said that several characters die in the manga that would make their plots irreconciliable with the games and anime (and the circumstances of some of these deaths are unique, too, but that's besides the point).

Ah, I guess I see what you meant. But still, parallel universes.

I already addressed the arguments about the multiverse and 'whataboutism' earlier but for the sake of repetition, yes, it does matter. If you feel like it doesn't matter you should make a post in wiki management about how the rules on verses shouldn't be consistent, but for now it's absolutely important.

It does matter because not all verses are made the same or treated the same. This is extremely simple. I don’t care about what other verses do because they don’t do what’s being argued here for Pokemons canon defense. I don’t have to argue against the rules when I can argue this verses case is different.

And it is.

1. Different characters existing at once is evidence against the verses being equal because these different characters behave very differently and sometimes have completely different ratings, pokemon and even powers.

Again, the point is that they don’t live in the same literal world but that they are in worlds parallel to each other.

 

[Arceus0x]

Basically if this goes through, for example, the game and manga page for, let's say, Lucario, is gonna be the exact same with the only difference that games have piss poor amounts of feats for second stages and hell knows where Riolu ends up, but there will be two versions of High 7-A Lucario with the same movesets ect.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

"Oh OP is misinforming you and lying because he's trying to follow the rules"
lmaoooooooooooo

Yes because for the upteenth time

Canon is not treated the same across every verse on here. What is so hard to understand about this?

And by the way, this comment was targeting the OPs apparent “inconsistencies” (which they are not) and things that suddenly set the canons apart like game and anime characters not existing inside each other’s worlds or type immunities not being in the anime (which IS a blatant lie).

 

[Ayewale]

Executor type beat

"...but this is mostly unnecessary because I don't see how other series determine their rules matters anything in a series that has their own defined rules." Because those series don't have their own rules, they (like every other verse in the wiki) follows the rules of the website. Marvel, Star Wars & LOTR pages do not break any rules; they are not treated as special cases in reference to how they scale their canons to each other. Pokemon does.

The 'exceptions' that the quote you listed are referring to are not 'a verse can break all of the rules because they try to be consistent'. They refer to how some franchises can have slight deviations here and there, but Pokemon functions in literally no way similar to the accepted meaning of canon.

Also, I never said that I disagree with allowing in the 'background stuff' or 'minor details', I said in another post that I was neutral on this. My only question is what constitutes 'background stuff' because that could refer to anything, and I don't think you answered (might've missed it). Abilities and pokemon moves should inly be scaled to each other on a case by case basis. The 'visual demonstration example' sounds fine too.

The notion in general that "despite being massively different, they're meant to be the same" doesn't give the verse free-reign to just cross-scale everything. I cannot stress enough that artistic limitations and rules on a large multimedia verse are not unique to Pokemon at all, nor are they distinctly strict. Overall though it seems like we agree for the most part.

 

[Ayewale]

Basically if this goes through, for example, the game and manga page for, let's say, Lucario, is gonna be the exact same with the only difference that games have piss poor amounts of feats for second stages and hell knows where Riolu ends up, but there will be two versions of High 7-A Lucario with the same movesets ect.

How would we reformat the verse? Admittedly, the answer to this are things that I want to elaborate on in another CRT. I feel like it would be irrelevant to bring up plans for the future if I couldn't even get this to be accepted. However, the basic idea I have is that Pokemon would have different profiles for the manga, anime and games (if applicable: some Pokemon remain similar enough to have 2 or even one)...

I'll assume you forgot that I said this, but...yeah.

 

[Arceus0x]

I'll assume you forgot that I said this, but...yeah.

thing is, this isn't possible with what you are proposing. It will literally be just the same profiles over and over again but they'd just have different stats coming from different feats

 

[Ayewale]

Yes because for the upteenth time

Canon is not treated the same across every verse on here. What is so hard to understand about this?

And by the way, this comment was targeting the OPs apparent “inconsistencies” (which they are not) and things that suddenly set the canons apart like game and anime characters not existing inside each other’s worlds or type immunities not being in the anime (which IS a blatant lie).

While not all verses have the exact same definitions on canon, that doesn't mean that standards for the wiki do not exist. All of the verses I've already mentioned and more definitely don't have the same subtleties in their canons but all still follow the same rule of not scaling other mediums to each other unless they're explicitly shown to be such. Simply having a lot of artistic control does not count and I give countless examples of verses that have gigantic control but still separate different mediums.

EDIT: Also, f you're still saying I'm lying about type immunities I'm gonna stop replying to you. I made it clear what my point was, so you don't have the excuse of misinterpreting me,

 

[Ayewale]

thing is, this isn't possible with what you are proposing. It will literally be just the same profiles over and over again but they'd just have different stats coming from different feats

You would be surprised how many questions I answered in my original post.

It wouldn't produce that big of a change. Patently untrue. Every single legendary Pokemon on the wiki would at least get a huge revision based off these standards, and several trainers (if not all of them) would get very large redos of their pages as well. Even for individual Pokemon, many of them have showcased moves that work very differently in the manga/anime or have different feats outright in the manga/anime.

• Also, even if it didn't change that much...that's an argument in my favor, because it means the workload is reduced, not that the canon-splitting is any less valid.

 

[Arceus0x]

You would be surprised how many questions I answered in my original post.

at best i've seen a few moves work slightly differently, however that is irrelevant since even the anime has varying ways to show the same attacks. You can't use change in consistency of attacks as an argument when in the same season of anime Psychic was used as an instant grab that would make the opponent glow and then get thrown around but then was changed for some to be a wave of energy that would strike the opponent, knocking them back. So changes in moves are overall useless unless you also want 10 extra profiles for each pokemon with a slightly different move.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Heads up that I’m going to be super busy the rest of the day so if anyone responds to my stuff and whatnot I’ll reply late tonight or tomorrow

 

[Arceus0x]

Heads up that I’m going to be super busy the rest of the day so if anyone responds to my stuff and whatnot I’ll reply late tonight or tomorrow

gonna be busy getting tackled by Rockruffs

 

[Ayewale]

yet another Kukui banger. my favorite professor FR

1. You called me a liar again in the post that came right after you apologized for your rude behavior, after I clarified my point to you. Even in a best case scenario you're being incredibly antagonistic and arguing in bad faith.
2. In addition to that, you didn't really apologize, either. "Sorry if I come across as rude, but..." but what, mate? From my perspective you guys are incredibly wrong, but I've been nothing but cordial so far. Saying that "I wouldn't have been rude if you didn't try to come across as super knowledgeable of the verse" is literally just you being rude again. I'm not trying to be anything; I just like the verse and gave my take. You trying to excuse your shitty behavior in the same breath as you saying 'sorry' nullifies the sorry, too. Calm down mate, it's just Pokemon.
3. Their experience with Pokemon doesn't nullify the fact that calling for a topic ban is in extremely bad taste (and some of them do have experience and are Supporters). It being brought up multiple times doesn't make any future attempt automatically invalid, either.
   1. You also assume that people 'haven't noticed the counters' instead of them seeing your posts and just...not agreeing. Imagine if I said the people who agree with you just don't understand my post; I'd come off as being arrogant and annoying.
4. Canons aren't alternate universes in Pokemon...I think we've lost track of what canon means. 'Canons being alternate universes' makes no sense: it's either you're saying "all AUs are their own canon" or "all AUs are part of one canon". Pretty sure you mean the latter.

1. Any given Pokemon in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon (which you claimed should be a part of the composite canon) is far more intelligent than any given pokemon in the anime & games. They are the exact same creature and yet are more than different enough to warrant their own profile.
   1. Also you're not a Transformers Nerd, but even Generic Autobots in each verse have significant differences (for example, their origin differs greatly, how similar Cybertronian society is to ours is very different, their average durability varies a lot) lol
2. The actual characters from Nobunaga's Ambition do appear in Pokemon Conquest, though. The other warlords are based off them, but Nobunaga shares the exact same design, appearance and character as his game counterpart.
   1. Pokemon Conquest having a canon-accurate portrayal of Arceus does nothing to make it accurate. You ignored my point about how plenty of crossover games try to be accurate like this, too.
   2. The Pokken Tournament producer said pretty plainly "it's canonical in the context of the games"...which (a) means the games are a different canon, otherwise his distinction wouldn't make sense and (b) is very, very specific. He doesn't know if it's canon to the other games or not. Which in of itself acknowledges that Pokken is it's own canon.
3. Pokemon creatures do vary across mediums, though. Intelligence varies significantly, the mechanics of moves changes, type immunities can be circumvented in ways that aren't possible in the games consistently, etc.

1. "Except you have yet to bring up an actual similar example, all of your examples are literally false equivalances. You have yet to even reference a verse where canons are treated as alternate worlds, which by then, I could start taking the comparison seriously." Well, this is a pretty loaded statement.
   1. Firstly, Marvel & DC. I dunno what to tell you other than the fact that we treat different universes like their own separate canons. I have referenced it several times at this point.
   2. Secondly, this assumes that the pokemon mediums are all just parallel to each other, something that has no proof. Yes, each games are different timelines...why does this automatically apply to the anime? Even Executor himself said that he doesn't think they share a multiverse.
   3. Thirdly, you're being rather dismissive of the examples. Whether LOTR treats the movies as being another universe is irrelevant; what matters is how the LOTR universe has far more artistic control than TPCi, to the point where Christopher Tolkein spent his lifetime keep adaptations consistent. There's even the Tolkein Estate to further manage things, and Peter Jackson dedicated himself to making the LOTR movies as accurate as possible. Yet, this accuracy (per the wiki's standards) are not enough to equalize the movies and books. Therefore, by this standard, accuracy/consistency alone is not an argument for compositing all verse profiles. You obviously have more arguments than that, but can we agree 'TPCi monitors things and makes sure their correct' isn't a point anymore?
2. A case by case basis is not an invitation to ignore literally all standards on how canon works. Things are rated on a case by case basis only when the rule itself is vague: "compositing canons is not allowed" is a pretty hard rule. Everyone seems to acknowledge that the manga, anime and games are different canons (calling them alternate worlds does nothing to make this less true) so it follows that their profiles remain separate.
3. "Again,. im going to ask a simple question and I want an answer. Do any of these verses you named have ANY level of evidence that specifies their canons being considered parallel universes to each other?"
   1. Yes, Marvel & DC. Different canons are called Different Earths.
   2. Yes, Star Wars, too.
   3. Transformers as well.
   4. They are not false equivalences by default as explained above.
   5. Individual Pokemon canons being established to have a multiverse =/= All of the canons take place in said multiverse. By this logic, the Harry Potter movies and books exist in the same universe because alternate timelines were established, so of course they're both parallel to each other (and it would also mean HP answers 'yes' to our question to , which makes literally every verse answer a 'yes' to your question). Except this doesn't make sense: the existence of a multiverse doesn't mean everything is suddenly a part of it. Transformer canons are a part of the multiverse because it's explicitly stated that they all exist in a multiverse. Marvel & DC canons share a multiverse because...it's explicitly stated that they are. Not "the concept of multiverses exists", moreso "yes, every marvel adapation is part of the multiverse". Pokemon is more of the former.
4. "And its hilarious you mention Bulbpedia when, on that very same source..." On that very same source, Alain does not have a section for being in the games, because there's no reason to assume that speech was a real reference and not an easter egg. There is literally no source on the internet that definitely says Alain is in the games.
   1. Also, assuming he is in the games, it'd be a game-specific version of Alain with no relation to the anime, because as you said, they are completely different mediums/canons/universes/whatever the **** we go by at this point.
5. The canons are not confirmed to be parallel because see above.
6. "So your literal only response to this is that "it can't be true because then the anime is canon to the games, which just cant be true!" No, my response to this is that the anime and game stories differ way too much to both be happening at the same time, it's not that difficult. You yourself have acknowledged that they are widely different, hence the multiverse designation.

Your point on the anime game mechanics is really illuminating. I think this is the fundamental difference in this argument. You have to go out of your way to justify every inconsistency, be it them taking place in a multiverse being "confirmed" or them being "unable" to portray how realistic battles or how PMD's vastly different portrayal of Pokemon because it "literally takes someone from our world". Whereas Occam's Razor and wiki policy just default to the obvious: they're wildly inconsistent because they don't share a canon. There isn't any difference or inconsistency I could possibly bring up to change your mind.

It's the difference between an essay looking for an answer to a question and an essay trying to prove an answer to a question; the second one is going to have the same outcome no matter what evidence it encounters, even if it's literally nothing. It's also why literally the moment the thread started, before any long debates or hostility of every kind, you jumped to being rude, gave me no benefit of doubt, and assumed I was a liar, and then doubled down after I pointed it out.

Like, yeah, the games can't show Palkia using space to **** with people (apart from lore talking about it's powers, and the move spatial rend, and the pokedex outright confirming it's abilities) or Kyogre drowning the battlefield (apart from having an ability to causes so much rain fire-type moves don't work or nearly flooding the entire region passively) or Dialga Time Stopping people (which, if it could do in the games...they would say it would) or Jirachi making a wish whenever it wants (which the games explicitly say it can't). Or how the game can't display any of Deoxys powers because npc lore, npc statements, pokedex entries, animations or special moves are all too expensive for the games. Or how the games literally having unique universes doesn't make their cosmologies unique. Or how "Flying Types are intentionally immune to spikes in-game but can take spike damage in the anime" is clearly just the games being limited and not the anime and games being very different...

With all of this being said it kinda seems like you're arguing with as much bad faith against me as possible. It makes it pretty difficult to respond to your criticisms sometimes. Hopefully when you read this and come back with a response you would have chilled out a lot because we might as well not continue debating otherwise.

 

[Ayewale]

at best i've seen a few moves work slightly differently, however that is irrelevant since even the anime has varying ways to show the same attacks. You can't use change in consistency of attacks as an argument when in the same season of anime Psychic was used as an instant grab that would make the opponent glow and then get thrown around but then was changed for some to be a wave of energy that would strike the opponent, knocking them back. So changes in moves are overall useless unless you also want 10 extra profiles for each pokemon with a slightly different move.

You do not need ten different profiles for each different usage of psychic in the anime. But since you've done the work for proving that the move is very different from the games, Pokemon could just have different anime keys for moves that are far different in the anime. Like Psychic.

How exactly we'll reformat the profiles comes later. I can't really answer that without getting this CRT passed first.

 

[Hasty12345]

If this revision were to pass it would probably be easier to delete the pages and start again tbh

 

[Ayewale]

If this revision were to pass it would probably be easier to delete the pages and start again tbh

You'd likely have to delete or entirely rework a lot of pages, yes.

 

[Purmeenant]

I hard disagree with the original post