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Revising Dragon Ball Flight Speed (Dragon Ball + DBZ + DBS Manga)

KLOL506 said:
Oh boy, now we're really digging into "Moon feat inconsistent with other speed feats" aren't we
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Piccolo can control the speed and power of his own Ki attacks (we already know the Z Fighters can do this) and he made his own attack to be faster in order to stop Gohan's rampage as soon as possible.

He didn't need to do this against Raditz and him being surprised by Raditz' speed is not a contradiction since we don't know how fast the SBC was in the first place (definitely not as fast as the Moon blast)
 
Vizer04 said:
Piccolo can control the speed and power of his own Ki attacks (we already know the Z Fighters can do this) and he made his own attack to be faster in order to stop Gohan's rampage as soon as possible.

He didn't need to do this against Raditz and him being surprised by Raditz' speed is not a contradiction since we don't know how fast the SBC was in the first place (definitely not as fast as the Moon blast)
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Why wouldn't he want to make his SBC as fast as possible when he's trying to take out Raditz?
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Why wouldn't he want to make his SBC as fast as possible when he's trying to take out Raditz?
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To defeat Raditz he needs power. Yes, he needs to hit his body first but that's useless if he can't kill him. He made his attack as strong as possible and as fast as he could possibly make it (not to say it's his fastest attack)
 
Vizer04 said:
To defeat Raditz he needs power. Yes, he needs to hit his body for that's useless if he can't kill him. He made his attack as strong as possible and as fast as he could possibly make it (not to say it's his fastest attack)
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make his attack not faster when Raditz outspeed both him and Goku, then what the point of doing that attack anymore if it not going to hit???
 
CloverDragon03 said:
How do you know this for certain, though?
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Look, all I know if I've got about 20 to 30 feats of the characters not having Relativistic+ to FTL flight speed in scenes where you'd expect it to be the case if they were actually that fast.

And I'm being told that the only counter-evidence to these feats is that some of the characters display "Relativistic+ flight" during some scenes of combat, which only exists because of scaling to this 1 Relativistic+ calc.

If I have to evaluate what is more consistent, the several feats for Side A seem better to me than the one feat for Side B.
 
Damage3245 said:
Look, all I know if I've got about 20 to 30 feats of the characters not having Relativistic+ to FTL flight speed in scenes where you'd expect it to be the case if they were actually that fast.

And I'm being told that the only counter-evidence to these feats is that some of the characters display "Relativistic+ flight" during some scenes of combat, which only exists because of scaling to this 1 Relativistic+ calc.

If I have to evaluate what is more consistent, the several feats for Side A seem better to me than the one feat for Side B.
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Again, this entire argument frankly defeats the purpose of the Relativistic+ feat being, well... a feat.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Again, this entire argument frankly defeats the purpose of the Relativistic+ feat being, well... a feat.
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Hey, I'm not saying it isn't a feat. But it's nothing new about there being a feat we don't include on profiles because of consistency issues. The many examples I've given to counter this are also feats. If you want this Piccolo attack to be used in scaling and on profiles simply because it is feat... then what about all the other feats?
 
Vizer04 said:
Why do you think the SBC should be faster?
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I mean, the fact that Piccolo wants this attack to be as strong and as fast as possible to take out Raditz, that's a good reason for it to be at least as fast, if not faster.

You're the one that initially argued for it not being as fast and you haven't exactly backed that up too well
 
Damage3245 said:
Hey, I'm not saying it isn't a feat. But it's nothing new about there being a feat we don't include on profiles because of consistency issues. The many examples I've given to counter this are also feats. If you want this Piccolo attack to be used in scaling and on profiles simply because it is feat... then what about all the other feats?
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Sorry to say, but firing a blast that fast and having characters that can fly from blasts comparable to it, and then having travel time statements like what you've mentioned come up later on... those travel time statements just don't add up
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Sorry to say, but firing a blast that fast and having characters that can fly from blasts comparable to it, and then having travel time statements like what you've mentioned come up later on... those travel time statements just don't add up
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Yup, there's something up no matter how you look at it. That's why I posited multiple different solutions.

One of them is that the speed of the blast in that scene is just PIS.

Plot-Induced Stupidity, or PIS for short, is a term used to refer to events in a story that contradict a character's normal capabilities for the purpose of the plot.
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Toriyama needed Piccolo to blow up the Moon quickly to stop Gohan's rampage from carrying on while Piccolo doesn't just just sit twiddling his thumbs for however long it would take for his attack to reach the Moon. So it happened quickly because it needed to for the plot.

And then since that point onwards Toriyama has consistently made the characters' speed nowhere near that fast. Obviously we don't get timers for specific Ki blasts and whatnot, but we do get plenty and I mean plenty of information for the character's speeds in general.

I mean, Outliers wouldn't exist if everything made perfect sense in these stories to begin with.
 
I would honestly consider the travel time things more of a cause for PIS, and here's why:

Blowing up the moon is something that's already happened in Dragon Ball before, as Roshi did so in the past. However, these travel time incidents would indicate levels of speed that even the OG Dragon Ball has, in-universe-surpassed, which is far from consistent. These times were likely created by Toriyama to add some stakes into the story, something along the lines of "they won't be there for [x] amount of time and they're also worried about being caught, high stakes," that sorta thing.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
I would honestly consider the travel time things more of a cause for PIS, and here's why:

Blowing up the moon is something that's already happened in Dragon Ball before, as Roshi did so in the past. However, these travel time incidents would indicate levels of speed that even the OG Dragon Ball has, in-universe-surpassed, which is far from consistent. These times were likely created by Toriyama to add some stakes into the story, something along the lines of "they won't be there for [x] amount of time and they're also worried about being caught, high stakes," that sorta thing.
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But if we're talking about "a character's normal capabilities" then we have to look at what is most consistent, right? I wouldn't mind drawing up a list of all the feats showing the Dragon Ball characters to be slow and all the feats showing the characters to be fast, but I feel like that's sort of already covered and you don't agree that the most consistent scaling is the right one.
 
For most of the feats mentioned you could pretty simply argue they weren't at full speed. And during the Saiyan arc characters at points had to arrive later for the plot's sake. While a lot of the Namek arc was quite literally about suppressing oneself and going unnoticed. I don't think using those make for great arguments.

Damage3245 said:
But just because Ki blasts get faster in general as the user gets more powerful, this doesn't necessarily mean every Ki blast will be that way.

When Krillin uses his Scattering Bullet attack, it is noted by Piccolo as being powerful but has "no speed". This attack is done by a Krillin more powerful than Piccolo's charged Special Beam Cannon, yet the Saibamen (equals to Raditz) have an easier time dodging it. Krillin then redirects that attack to go into the sky before splitting it apart into multiple smaller Ki blasts that are seemingly faster. So Ki attacks are not necessarily all one consistent speed. It may be counterintuitive but if Ki blasts can vary in speed and be "slow" even from a character who was more powerful than Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon, then it isn't exactly a fact that Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon had to be as fast as his attack which blew up the Moon.
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Except that's the norm, and whenever that isn't the case it's always mentioned. Whether it's a ki blast, transformation etc., when it gets slower, it's mentioned. Also, it would make no logical sense for a regular ki blast that has to hit the moon to go faster than a charged special blast that has to hit a more specific target that's already stronger and faster than Piccolo himself. Plus the Makankosappo has a mentioned weakness, yet speed was never among them.
 
For most of the feats mentioned you could pretty simply argue they weren't at full speed. And during the Saiyan arc characters at points had to arrive later for the plot's sake. While a lot of the Namek arc was quite literally about suppressing oneself and going unnoticed. I don't think using those make for great arguments.
Click to expand...

See, I don't think you could argue that. I mean, you could, but you wouldn't necessarily be right for most of them.

Except that's the norm, and whenever that isn't the case it's always mentioned. Whether it's a ki blast, transformation etc., when it gets slower, it's mentioned. Also, it would make no logical sense for a regular ki blast that has to hit the moon to go faster than a charged special blast that has to hit a more specific target that's already stronger and faster than Piccolo himself. Plus the Makankosappo has a mentioned weakness, yet speed was never among them.
Click to expand...

Things not making logical sense is entirely why I made this thread.

EDIT:

I'll just remind everyone our Inconsistencies page says this:

In fiction, an inconsistency is when a character has an occurrence usually regarding power that differs from the norm. An inconsistency can work both ways, being either a low showing or a high showing. Generally, inconsistencies should not be accepted unless there is a good reason for it (such as a character who usually holds back on his or her full power).
Click to expand...

I'm just going off the wiki's own principles here.
 
Antvasima said:
I was asked to comment here.

The first post of this thread seems to make sense to me, but I am not a very good person to ask. What are the conclusions here so far?
Click to expand...

We're nowhere near a conclusion; I still have to through the Namek Arc and do a breakdown on the feats in that arc.

Thus far, a majority of staff members have agreed with me that the demonstrated flight speed feats in Dragon Ball are lower than the combat speed feats. There's still more topics to cover though, and some calc group members have disagreed with the thread.

From the first page, my summary;

Thus far it seems like SamanPatou, KingTempest and Qawsedf234 agree. AKM and DDM acknowledge that flight speed is portrayed as inferior to typical combat speed but don't 100% agree.
KLOL506, and CloverDragon03 disagree.
Click to expand...
DemonGodMitchAubin also disagreed initially, but said that he isn't as familiar with the manga feats.
 
Yeah I don't think this is gonna go anywhere until we hear what @DarkDragonMedeus and @AKM sama have to say about all of this. While they acknowledge combat speed being superior to travel speed (Albeit not overwhelmingly so) while also acknowledging that DB characters have showcased travel speed comparable to their own blast speeds countless times and whatnot, they also disagree with all the examples used in the OP to be used as anti-feats, and I think they might have more to say on the matter since more points of debate were brought up.
 
KLOL506 said:
Yeah I don't think this is gonna go anywhere until we hear what @DarkDragonMedeus and @AKM sama have to say about all of this. While they acknowledge combat speed being superior to travel speed, they also disagree with all the examples used in the OP to be used as anti-feats, and I think they might have more to say on the matter since more points of debate were brought up.
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Yeah, I don't expect this to get to a speedy conclusion.

I have several more feats to bring up as well that I need time to write up.
 
Damage3245 said:
you don't agree that the most consistent scaling is the right one.
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Frankly, I'm not a fan of how you're saying this, it's giving me "I'm right and you just won't accept that" vibes. Maybe that's just me, I dunno

We've got different ideas on what's most consistent, it's that simple
 
I was not called out but I would like to help draw some conclusions in this thread.

First of all Damage and Vizer's claims about Piccolo feat being outlier are completely absurd.

We are talking about a Piccolo with several years more training than Classic Dragon Ball and who is much faster than Kame who reached similar speeds using his kamehameha, which the wiki still considers a valid speed feat.

Also we have to remember that we have a certain scarcity of relevant speed feats for a while, dismissing the most relevant feat we have is just stupid.


Damage3245 said:
Toriyama needed Piccolo to blow up the Moon quickly to stop Gohan's rampage from carrying on while Piccolo doesn't just just sit twiddling his thumbs for however long it would take for his attack to reach the Moon. So it happened quickly because it needed to for the plot.
Click to expand...
I could use the same logic for his anti-feats, Toriyama needs the warriors to not be so fast for the story to remain interesting, that's why there are so many inconsistencies between the narrative and the most impressive feats.

And by that I don't mean we should ignore anti-feats, I am showing that your logic to justify this feat being an outlier is flawed as it can be used even to support a counter thesis, you need better evidence if you want us to accept that this feat is an outlier.

Also, I must remind you all that just as we have a "consistency in anti-feats" we also have a consistency for scaling flight speed in ki blasts and other types of speed:

Gohan and Kuririn can fly for tens of meters before their attacks hit Guldo.

Gohan by flying in a straight line can save Vegeta from being hit by a ki blast from Reecome, and they were a great distance away before that.

Freeza by flying in a straight line can also speedblitz the reaction of other characters.

Goku can give speedblitz to Booter using only flight speed.

"Bukujutsu" (the flying technique) is described as par with the ki explosion, in the daizenshuu.

Goku can momentarily fly away from Cell's Kamehameha, although it is clear that he would be hit eventually

In Dragon Ball Super we also have this:

Vegeta can fly from Granolah's ki blasts

And Granolah can fly faster than Goku's Ki Blasts

We have to recognize that although flight speed has its anti-feats, if it is MUCH lower than other statistics none of these feats would be possible.

Sorry if there are any English errors in my text, I am using only my average English and online translators to write this text
 
Also we have to remember that we have a certain scarcity of relevant speed feats for a while, dismissing the most relevant feat we have is just stupid.
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That's sort of the point. When you have such a very limited pool of data points, it's a lot harder to point to them and say "This is consistent."

Just because the one good speed feat at the beginning of DBZ is really high, doesn't mean it is especailly worth keeping. That only makes sense if our only priority is to aim for the highest rating possible on Piccolo's profile.

I could use the same logic for his anti-feats, Toriyama needs the warriors to not be so fast for the story to remain interesting, that's why there are so many inconsistencies between the narrative and the most impressive feats.
Click to expand...

Even if that's the case, do you agree that would in fact make the characters not as fast for that point in the story?

My main proposal was to split Flight Speed and Combat Speed after all.

And by that I don't mean we should ignore anti-feats, I am showing that your logic to justify this feat being an outlier is flawed as it can be used even to support a counter thesis, you need better evidence if you want us to accept that this feat is an outlier.
Click to expand...

What kind of evidence would you accept for it to be an outlier?

Also, I must remind you all that just as we have a "consistency in anti-feats" we also have a consistency for scaling flight speed in ki blasts and other types of speed:
Click to expand...

This can also work as support for Piccolo's feat being an even bigger inconsistency and outlier to be honest.

"Bukujutsu" (the flying technique) is described as par with the ki explosion, in the daizenshuu.
Click to expand...

It was explained by Qaws in the previous page that this is not referring to speed, but just the simplicity of the technique.

In Dragon Ball Super we also have this:
Vegeta can fly from Granolah's ki blasts
And Granolah can fly faster than Goku's Ki Blasts
Click to expand...

We're concentrating on the Saiyan Arc and Namek Arc for now.

We have to recognize that although flight speed has its anti-feats, if it is MUCH lower than other statistics none of these feats would be possible.
Click to expand...

I get what you mean, but that just sounds like what I've been saying.
 
Last edited:
I think that those speed times are for plot convenience. Like Frieza saying Namek will be destroyed in five minutes. It wouldn't make a great story, if they all blitzed the planets. Same goes for Superman. He can fly millions xC, but still needs time to fly to another city . While the author could easily make him appear in the city one millionth of a second. It just for story telling and pacing.
 
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