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- #281
That's what I'm saying, yeah.
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Revising Dragon Ball Flight Speed (Dragon Ball + DBZ + DBS Manga)
- Thread starter Damage3245
- Start date
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So, PIS wouldn't really be accepted as valid antifeats. At that point, we could just have 3-A Android 18.
GodlyCharmander
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Alright.
So, the point of "SBC might be slower than unnamed Ki Blast" was rebutted by me, as Damage never really countered it. We have two very strong supports for SBC being particularly fast, while none for the Ki Blast, so there is no point in speculating on a point absolutely impossible to prove.
If we have a problem with the Rel+ being outlier, then we should focus on that. Focus on what you all consider anti-feats, focus on why the value is being considered an outlier. Bringing up the Piccolo SBC stuff did nothing to help these points, so it derailed the post significantly.
How about we focus on the purpose of the OP instead? I'm sure the whole Piccolo calc being inconsistent can be dealt with in another thread.
So, the point of "SBC might be slower than unnamed Ki Blast" was rebutted by me, as Damage never really countered it. We have two very strong supports for SBC being particularly fast, while none for the Ki Blast, so there is no point in speculating on a point absolutely impossible to prove.
If we have a problem with the Rel+ being outlier, then we should focus on that. Focus on what you all consider anti-feats, focus on why the value is being considered an outlier. Bringing up the Piccolo SBC stuff did nothing to help these points, so it derailed the post significantly.
How about we focus on the purpose of the OP instead? I'm sure the whole Piccolo calc being inconsistent can be dealt with in another thread.
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- Thread starter
- #284
Addressing whether or not the Piccolo feat is inconsistent or not depends on the result of this thread I would say.
I won't focus on the Piccolo feat for now then.
GodlyCharmander
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I mean, the thread's purpose is to separate Flight and Combat speeds.
If we accept that both are comparable, then the thread's purpose has been 'rejected', and the inconsistencies are going to be a subject for speed in general being slower, which might warrant another thread on its own.
If we accept that both are not comparable, then there is no point in discussing combat speed at all.
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- Thread starter
- #286
Well, I'll get back to this thread when I've finished sorting through the list of Namek Arc feats. Probably by tomorrow morning.
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Are you insinuating that the the man actually closed the ting?
SirAlex09
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Honestly speaking, this guy makes the most sense.
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- Thread starter
- #289
Just briefly.
Maybe, but by that logic we might as well not index anything. I'm also looking for a potential compromise here, but that does not mean throwing out literally every single feat that goes against the current speed ratings setup.
SirAlex09
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I feel like we won't reach a conclusion because both sides have enough points that neither side can counter. I mean half of your points wasn't even addressed neither by Charmander nor Gilad.
Similarly you didn't address all of their Contra points either. The debate isn't going forward for the last 2 pages. It's essentially a yes/no debate.
The other problem is that if we do it for Dragonball , we have to do it for every other Verse as well since this is a Versus debate platform and everything has to be kept fair... Like I seriously doubt that most of the mainstream Anime protagonist have FTL travel speed if we look at them strictly.
- 29,719
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- Thread starter
- #291
Yeah, I've got more points coming too.
Which ones specifically haven't been addressed at all?
Sorry to be blunt but I don't care at all for any other verse outside of this thread right now. If we have to tackle them once this thread is done, I'll do that. Until then, it's not an issue. We can't let this thread in particular get stopped because we're worried about how it might affect other verses.
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Whether or not other Verses have exaggerated Travel speed ratings is irrelevant to Dragon Ball.
SirAlex09
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Don't you actually have enough votes to get this applied? Most of Staff seem to agree
- 29,719
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- Thread starter
- #294
I want to be thorough. It wouldn't feel right if I let this additional research I've done not get mentioned here yet. Besides, this kind of potentially huge change to the verse shouldn't be rushed through in a couple days.
Once I've posted the Namek Arc stuff, I'll do another check amongst the staff members who have commented here so far, and see where we can go from there.
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Dude, only 7 staff members responded, only 3 agree to make travel speed and combat speed distinct here (Qaws, Saman and KingTempest), two staff members (DDM and AKM, Both being DB experts, and AKM being a bureaucrat) disagree with the feats used in the OP to be used as anti-feats and have given reasons for why they can't be used as such (While they do agree that combat speed triumphs over travel speed, they also stated that the difference isn't that big and that their travel speed is at least comparable to, if not slower than their combat speed and they have yet to respond to the new points brought up in the thread since their response), and two other staff members disagree with OP (Me and Clover).
This isn't enough agreement. We need further evaluation.
SirAlex09
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Sorry stupid question but doesn't Damage own vote count as well? XD
4 in favour, 2 neutral and 2 against it
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I wouldn't say DDM and AKM are neutral, they disagree with majority of Damage's feats brought up and haven't gotten time to respond to the new points brought up after.
Also AFAIK you can only vote on your own thread if it's a VS thread and if it's a good win con for others to use.
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- #298
As far as I'm aware, a staff members vote counts for their own CRT too.
A staff member is trusted to try and be objective after all.
That's been the case for prior CRTs I've started and I've seen other staff members start. Obviously a staff member alone can't pass their CRT with just their vote by itself.
A staff member is trusted to try and be objective after all.
That's been the case for prior CRTs I've started and I've seen other staff members start. Obviously a staff member alone can't pass their CRT with just their vote by itself.
SirAlex09
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Hooooold on. What did Maverick vote?
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Hmmmm, okay then.
In any case, let's wait for the Namek feats, and then let's wait for what DDM and AKM have to say.
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I... don't think he did? Yet? If he did, I prolly lost the vote in the comments.
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Just a thing though. Why? Whis is far and away the fastest thing in Universe 7, and it’s never said beyond the now-retconned Toriyama BoG statement that anyone even approaches him.
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Something to do with comparison of Beerus taking slightly longer to reach a planet than Whis or something. @AKM sama knows the deets most probably.
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What you do mean by? "it’s never said beyond the now-retconned Toriyama BoG statement that anyone even approaches him"
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The statement that SSJG Goku is a 7 while Beerus is a 10 and Whis is a 15. It’s long since been retconned because during that fight Goku was like a .001 to Beerus’s 10.
Ah that feat. It very much shouldn’t be used for scaling, imo. Beerus arrives on a not-too-distant planet in 20 minutes when it takes Whis 15. Neither we’re going anywhere above casual unless you’d wanna assume that Whis is like 1c.
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I’m neutral for now. Personally think there’s some more discussion to be had.
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That said, I do think that DB characters (not counting Super as I’m not touching that) are, at least in terms of flight speed, barely FTL, if at all, even factoring in multipliers. But like, probably shouldn’t be listed as we mainly focus on combat speed, and literally every other speed but their flight speed scales to their combat speed.
GodlyCharmander
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Given Goku running out of steam less than halfway through the snakeway, it seems like flight takes quite a bit of energy. We have Goku flying on par with Freeza's attack speed for quite a bit of time.
What should we do with this information?
What should we do with this information?
GodlyCharmander
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You shouldn't use rule of 3 with power levels.
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Taking the matter into further consideration I’ll have to agree with their long distance travel speed and combat speed being disproportionate. Scouring through the DB Manga I didn’t find a lot of Travel Speed feats, but here’s every notable travel feat I noticed:
- Raditz Saga Piccolo keeping up with the Flying Nimbus
- Vegeta Saga Goku clocked Mach 16 when taking two days to cross
- Snake Way, a million kilometers
- Goku crossing a considerable distance on Namek
- SSJ Gotenks lapping the Earth 9(?) times, though an exact time frame is indeterminate without using the anime
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Goku didn't need the full two days to cross it. The feat is calculated to be Mach 30. Also, here is the Namek feat debunk: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38186
Gotenks stated that he circled the earth several dozens time
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GodlyCharmander
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It was anywhere between 15 to 25 minutes.
His fusion (which lasts 30 minutes) was ending when Piccolo found him, and Gotenks took a nap (which can last between 5 to 15 minutes)
- 29,719
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- Thread starter
- #315
Thank you for getting involved with the discussion, that is a good blog post.
But the Goku crossing a certain distance on Namek one is not so impressive. Vegeta and the others weren't a far distance away.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Snake Way is only believed to be 1 million kilometers long. Nobody actually know how truly long it is
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- Thread starter
- #317
Yeah, that means it could be shorter or longer, but the best figure for us to use is 1 million kilometers. Let's not forget as well that Goku was shortcutting a lot of that distance by not following the path exactly but jumping over it and flying at times.
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Let it be said that I obviously strongly disagree with Piccolo's SBC being an outlier in terms of speed. The thing has been discussed several times in the past even before I joined the wiki, and since this thread is not about that, I won't be saying more on this (I largely agree with GodlyCharmander).
Having said that, is there a TLDR post that I need to see? Because it seems the discussion was going at a quick pace.
Having said that, is there a TLDR post that I need to see? Because it seems the discussion was going at a quick pace.
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Recently people were arguing that Piccolo's SBC could be potentially slower than the moon-blast due to "inconsistency" regarding the feat.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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That was only at the beginning, and after that he couldn't do it anymore and was forced to run along the way
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