Revising Dragon Ball Flight Speed (Dragon Ball + DBZ + DBS Manga)

[GodlyCharmander]

Yes, Piccolo was impressed with Raditz' speed (though Raditz himself would still be slower than the Special Beam Cannon). By itself that is not a confirmation of anything unless you've got some kind of additional proof that Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon is the fastest attack he has. No need to act baffled and shocked in your posts.

You have the same problems as powerscalers who are looking for upgrades, interpreting situations, and lines in the most convenient form for your narrative. The only difference is that you do it for downgrades instead.


Obviously the insanity of Raditz dodging said attack, and being called "fast as hell" is because Special Beam Canon itself is a fast attack, so dodging it should be "impossible". Anyone with basic interpretation skills and isn't biased to a higher or lower result can tell that.

But, no, no, the no-named random Ki Blast whose speed has not even been commented on is faster than the attack implied to be impossibly fast, right, that makes sense.
Scatterbullet is also the "SSJ Grade 3" of Ki Attacks. The quirk of said attack is that it's powerful but slow to deceive enemies, using it as an universal rule is literally the same as saying "Well +ki doesn't mean +speed because Grade 3", which we already agreed that is absolutely stupid.

We are not twisting blatant and obvious interpretations because you wish to play Devil's Advocate, Damage.

 

[Damage3245]

You have the same problems as powerscalers who are looking for upgrades, interpreting situations, and lines in the most convenient form for your narrative. The only difference is that you do it for downgrades instead.

I'm not looking for downgrades, I'm just just trying to make the profiles consistent and accurate.

Obviously the insanity of Raditz dodging said attack, and being called "fast as hell" is because Special Beam Canon itself is a fast attack, so dodging it should be "impossible". Anyone with basic interpretation skills and isn't biased to a higher or lower result can tell that.

I'm sure Raditz does have "fast as Hell" reactions, but I don't think this sole feat should detirmine the speed ratings of the entire verse.

But, no, no, the no-named random Ki Blast whose speed has not even been commented on is faster than the attack implied to be impossibly fast, right, that makes sense.

Can you see the irony here? I can understand if you disagree with it, but from my perspective you're saying this Ki blast just being inconsistent is too far, but the dozens of other feats I've brought up are fine to just ignore. That's basically what I'm seeing here and it strikes me as ironic.

Scatterbullet is also the "SSJ Grade 3" of Ki Attacks. The quirk of said attack is that it's powerful but slow to deceive enemies, using it as an universal rule is literally the same as saying "Well +ki doesn't mean +speed because Grade 3", which we already agreed that is absolutely stupid.

I didn't say it was a Universal rule. I said that it showed the other Universal rule is not 100% consistent.

We are not twisting blatant and obvious interpretations because you wish to play Devil's Advocate, Damage.

Let me ask you, is there any amount of evidence that you would accept in order to revise the speed of the verse? If I show you ten pieces of evidence, is that not enough? How about twenty pieces of evidence?

Keep your interpretation however you want it, you can think whatever you want, but are you actually considering the verse's speed ratings with an open mind here?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I'm not looking for downgrades, I'm just just trying to make the profiles consistent and accurate.

I very much doubt that. Even if arguments are sound, and based on accepted logic, you have problems when it brings massive upgrades, regardless if they're based on reasonable accepted logic, and have little to no contractions.
The upgrade scares you, the number attached to it, not the logic, accuracy, or consistency. You immediately jump into any sort of narrative to circle around the upgrade and reasoning to say it's not valid.

But that's just a problem I have with you personally, let me stop derailing already =)

I'm sure Raditz does have "fast as Hell" reactions, but I don't think this sole feat should detirmine the speed ratings of the entire verse.

Telling me that is pointless. If you think that, use actual valid points to counter the feat.
"Specific-attribute Ki attack slow so maybe SBC slow"
"SBC slower than random ki blast"
are blatantly incorrect and idiotic arguments.

If you think the feat isn't valid, good. But these two points don't prove your hypothesis, as they are incorrect.

Can you see the irony here? I can understand if you disagree with it, but from my perspective you're saying this Ki blast just being inconsistent is too far, but the dozens of other feats I've brought up are fine to just ignore. That's basically what I'm seeing here and it strikes me as ironic.

Cool, mind addressing the argument then?
I don't care about any of that.

The implication that SBC is slower than the random Ki Blast is false. Don't base your points on that, and drop the argument.

I didn't say it was a Universal rule. I said that it showed the other Universal rule is not 100% consistent.

The rule would be:
"If X attack is shown to be slow for a specific attribute or reason, then it's slow, otherwise, +powerful attacks = +faster attacks".

This doesn't help your argument at all.

Let me ask you, is there any amount of evidence that you would accept in order to revise the speed of the verse? If I show you ten pieces of evidence, is that not enough? How about twenty pieces of evidence?

The amount of evidence is not the factor here, it's just you interpreting 1+1 as 11 that bothered me. I never said I disagreed with whatever you were saying, I just countered one objectively incorrect argument you used.

Keep your interpretation however you want it, you can think whatever you want, but are you actually considering the verse's speed ratings with an open mind here?

This whole line of questioning falls flat as soon as you realize I don't care much about Dragon Ball in general. I've lost interest in the show long ago, if you get this all through, I won't throw a hissy fit because of it.

I still however, believe you are making an absurd argument, and will gladly debunk you when I see it. Same applies to DB supporters as well (and if you see my first reply to the OP, I made counterargument to KLOL's "Ki = All stats enhanced" argument because I genuinely believe it was dumb). Implying I'm not open minded here is not going to get you anywhere.

 

[KLOL506]

I still however, believe you are making an absurd argument, and will gladly debunk you when I see it. Same applies to DB supporters as well (and if you see my first reply to the OP, I made counterargument to KLOL's "Ki = All stats enhanced" argument because I genuinely believe it was dumb). Implying I'm not open minded here is not going to get you anywhere.

Honestly it was more so that I was trying to say that Ki establishes all stats to be equally and proportionally scaled to each other to maintain maximum parity, that's all. Apologies if it rubbed on you in the wrong way.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Honestly it was more so that I was trying to say that Ki establishes all stats to be equally and proportionally scaled to each other to maintain maximum parity, that's all. Apologies if it rubbed on you in the wrong way.

I know, but the presentation sounded like "Well X increases both Y and Z, therefore Y = Z".

 

[Damage3245]

I very much doubt that. Even if arguments are sound, and based on accepted logic, you have problems when it brings massive upgrades, regardless if they're based on reasonable accepted logic, and have little to no contractions.
The upgrade scares you, the number attached to it, not the logic, accuracy, or consistency. You immediately jump into any sort of narrative to circle around the upgrade and reasoning to say it's not valid.

I've fought for upgrades on the wiki before, and if someone proposed a downgrade without sufficient evidence I wouldn't just blindly accept it. Am I more wary of upgrades in general? Sure, I'll admit to that. As you say though, that's because I tend to be the Devil's Advocate in this.

But that's just I problem I have with you personally, let me stop derailing already =)

Fine.

Telling me that is pointless. If you think that, use actual valid points to counter the feat.
"Specific-attribute Ki attack slow so maybe SBC slow"
"SBC slower than random ki blast"
are blatantly incorrect and idiotic arguments.

Those aren't my arguments.

The implication that SBC is slower than the random Ki Blast is false. Don't base your points on that, and drop the argument.

The implication is moreso that there is nothing directly proving the SBC is equal in speed to the Ki blast Piccolo used to destroy the Moon aside from our assumptions on how Ki blasts should be scaled.

Is it a reasonable conclusion that it is as fast or faster? Sure, I'm not denying that. I just said it wasn't a fact.

The amount of evidence is not the factor here, it's just you interpreting 1+1 as 11 that bothered me. I never said I disagreed with whatever you were saying, I just countered one objectively incorrect argument you used.

Okay.

This whole line of questioning falls flat as soon as you realize I don't care much about Dragon Ball in general. I've lost interest in the show long ago, if you get this all through, I won't throw a hissy fit because of it.

Okay.

I still however, believe you are making an absurd argument, and will gladly debunk you when I see it. Same applies to DB supporters as well (and if you see my first reply to the OP, I made counterargument to KLOL's "Ki = All stats enhanced" argument because I genuinely believe it was dumb). Implying I'm not open minded here is not going to get you anywhere.

That's fair. I responded negatively because it looked to me at first like you were nitpicking one line out of my entire huge post and it seemed like that was presented as some kind of debunk of the entire thing. I now realize that you were just responding to a single point that you disagreed with, and you didn't necessarily disagree with the entire post.

 

[KLOL506]

I know, but the presentation sounded like "Well X increases both Y and Z, therefore Y = Z".

Yeah that's on me, sorry about that, just that I forgot the term "parity" altogether a few weeks back.

 

[Vizer04]

Okay, I'd like us to focus on just the Saiyan Arc and the Namek Arc for now, and I'll do my best to prove to you that there is a meaningful difference in the series between Flight Speed and typical Combat Speed.

For this breakdown of feats, I'm only looking specifically at characters are flying through the air, both long distance and extremely short distance. To begin with, I'll just go over the Saiyan Arc first.

Saiyan Arc

Long Distance Flights

1) Raditz flying an unknown distance across the Earth to get to Goku on Roshi's island. It takes Raditz at least multiple minutes to get there. [Chapter 2]

• Raditz regards Goku's velocity as "high" despite Goku riding on the Flying Nimbus which has a maximum speed of Mach 1.5 according to the Daizenshuu.

2) Goku and Piccolo fly to where Raditz pod had landed from Roshi's island. [Chapter 3]

• Goku has to check if Piccolo can keep up with his Flying Nimbus, which Piccolo does.
• Raditz again regards them as approaching "quickly."

3) Goku starts his journey on the 1 Million kilometer-long Snake Way by flying... and almost immediately he is out of power and has to start running. [Chapter 11]

• What does this tell you? Well, even if we assume that Goku was capable of flying high speed there for a moment... he obviously cannot sustain it. He still has to complete the remainder of his journey over 6 months of travel.

4) For his travel back along Snake Way, King Kai estimates that it would take Goku two days to travel 1 million kilometers. [Chapter 18]

• It's a big improvement from the 6 months of running, flying and sleeping that Goku did on his first trip to King Kai, but obviously still not insanely fast.

5) The Saiyans arrive at 11:43 AM, and the Z Fighters like Tien, Chaozu and Yamcha begin flying towards Piccolo and Gohan shortly afterwards. They don't arrive until after 12:20 PM. Same applies for Vegeta and Nappa who started flying towards Piccolo and Gohan shortly after they arrived. [Chapter 19]

6) The whole time the Nappa vs. Z Fighters fight is going on, Goku is still flying across Snake Way... not suppressing himself, not holding back. He's in a hurry. And he still takes hours to fly the remaining distance. [Chapter 25]

7) King Kai regards Goku's travel across Snake Way as "unbelievable speed". [Chapter 26]

8) After Goku returns to Earth, he gets on board the Flying Nimbus and flies straight towards his friends. After covering some distance while Nappa fights Krillin, Gohan and Piccolo, Goku is finally sensed by Piccolo and Vegeta who deduces that Goku will arrive in four minutes. [Chapter 26 - 28]

• Let's be real here; Goku is in a hurry. He's urging the Flying Nimbus to go as fast as he it can possibly go. If he could blitz ahead of the Flying Nimbus and arrive to where his friends are at in a second, he would... and yet Vegeta senses it will take him multiple minutes to fly there despite Goku's urgency.

9) After Goku and Vegeta begin their battle, Gohan and Krillin start flying back towards Roshi's house. Despite travelling for some time while Goku and Vegeta have been fightng and it becoming sunset, the two of them still haven't made it to Roshi's house. [Chapter 33 - 39]

10) Gohan and Krillin then fly back towards where Goku and Vegeta have been battling, and again it takes them some time because the battle between Goku and Vegeta continued, with Goku even having enough time to form the Spirit Bomb and then lose it, before Gohan and Krillin get there. [Chapter 39 - 41]

Short Distance Flights

1) Nappa evades Piccolo's and Krillin's Ki blasts in midair after being stunned and recovering. [Chapter 24]

2) The Flying Nimbus saves Gohan from Nappa's stomp, surprising Nappa. [Chapter 29]

3) Goku tries flying after Nappa to stop him from attacking Gohan and Krillin, but realizes he won't make it in time. He uses the Kaio-ken to boost his flight speed and catches up to Nappa. [Chapter 32]

4) Goku and Vegeta battle each other whilst flying in short bursts. Goku can only use the Kaio-ken briefly at this time. [Chapter 34]

5) Vegeta's after powering-up surprises Goku and he headbutts him by flying at him. [Chapter 35]

6) After Goku powers up with Kaio-ken x 3, he overwhelms Vegeta with short bursts of speed, flying around him, evading a thrown Ki blast and attacking him from unexpected angles. [Chapter 36]

7) A weakened Vegeta dodges a weakened Gohan's Ki blast in midair. [Chapter 43]

My Thoughts Overall

We have to admit that there are plenty of times where Toriyama gives us reason to believe that his characters are travelling much slower than Relativistic speeds in the Saiyan Arc.

He gives us explicit timeframes, he gives us distances the characters travel, he's given us several instances where travel speed/flight speed is actually relevant to the plot and cannot simply be ignored. If you're going to ignore every single example of long distance travel speed I've presented to you from the manga itself, then what good reason is there not to just ignore every speed feat in the series, good or bad?

So how do we reconcile the apparent difference between what we currently scale the character's combat speed to be, and the numerous instances of travel speed/flight speed that contradict that?

Well, personally I think part of the issue is in how we approach the scaling for Ki blasts.

Piccolo shot a Ki blast at the Moon in roughly 3 seconds. Because of that, we rate his Ki blast as being 0.54c, and because we make a correlation between the power of a character and their attack speed, his charged up Special Beam Cannon must also be at least 0.54c. Therefore when Raditz dodged the attack by sidestepping it (whilst being grazed) we rate Raditz as being 0.54c too and then it all carries on from there...

But just because Ki blasts get faster in general as the user gets more powerful, this doesn't necessarily mean every Ki blast will be that way.

When Krillin uses his Scattering Bullet attack, it is noted by Piccolo as being powerful but has "no speed". This attack is done by a Krillin more powerful than Piccolo's charged Special Beam Cannon, yet the Saibamen (equals to Raditz) have an easier time dodging it. Krillin then redirects that attack to go into the sky before splitting it apart into multiple smaller Ki blasts that are seemingly faster. So Ki attacks are not necessarily all one consistent speed. It may be counterintuitive but if Ki blasts can vary in speed and be "slow" even from a character who was more powerful than Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon, then it isn't exactly a fact that Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon had to be as fast as his attack which blew up the Moon.

But I know, this probably won't be a popular perspective. We like scaling to be simple and easy. "Ki blast = 0.54c = Special Beam Cannon = Raditz' speed." That's simple... Even if it isn't necessarily true to begin with. After all, Raditz only side-stepped the beam. He may have only "travelled" 30 cm in the time it took the Special Beam Cannon to cross 3 meters. There's no good way of using that though as it becomes a matter of calc stacking due to our assumption of the Special Beam Cannon being as fast as the other calced Ki blast.

So, personally I see a few different options, not all of them equally good:

1) Piccolo's Attack Speed when he blew up the Moon is an outlier; the event obviously happened but for the sake of the plot and speeding up events on-screen, Toriyama just had Piccolo blow up the Moon without intending this to be a consistent speed that characters should scale to. After all, in this Saiyan Arc we have ONE non-scaling Relativistic feat, and SEVERAL non-scaling feats which go against it (assuming we cannot truly split flight speed and combat speed). If we care about consistency (and there is no AOE Fallacy here that makes this feats invalid) then the SEVERAL should take higer priority than the ONE.

2) Piccolo's Attack Speed is only that fast for that actual attack he used to blow up the Moon. I admit it may be counterintuitive; why would he not attack that quickly all the time? There's no good reason aside from PIS and typical Dragon Ball inconsistency. But we know Ki blasts can vary in speed. In this case, he may be rated as "X speed normally, up to Y attack speed."

3) Characters can only move extremely quickly over short bursts, so we separate out their short-range combat speed and their long-range travel/flight speed. We see Yamcha and the Saibamen fighting at "super speed" according to Piccolo, and we have the statement from Piccolo in later arcs that the Z Fighters can increase their power tremendously in one enormous burst. In this case, we rate the characters as having "X combat speed, Y flight speed". Even if characters can move very quickly over short distances, Goku's numerous instances of failing to cross huge distances in a short span of time shows that it cannot be sustained and isn't applicable to their normal speed.

I know, it's heretical to suggest downgrading Dragon Ball, but I think some people are too quick to gloss over some of these very real and relevant feats. If we're talking about Consistency and Accuracy, then we shouldn't hold onto the notion that Piccolo's attack on the Moon is the sole defining feat of the verse's speed.

I'll go over Namek Arc later today when I have time.

EDIT: Just in case people think I'm being completely unreasonable by even suggesting that Piccolo's attack speed feat be treated as an outlier, here's my quick look at the 5 guidelines supplied to us on the Outliers page.

1) Is it a big jump in speed? (Yes, the only prior calc remotely close to this was Master Roshi's own Moon-busting feat which is about 5.5x slower, and everything else in the verse beforehand and in this arc is significantly slower)

2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident? (Yes, in the Saiyan arc it is the only feat of this level of speed. In the series overall, it is the second time the Moon has been destroyed.)

3) Is the event unexplained and unjustified? (Yes/No; there is no reason given for Piccolo's attack to be this fast compared to everything else other than just us shrugging and say "It's just that fast.")

4) Does the event break the previously established power-scaling? (Yes; in regards to the speed demonstrated by everyone else. This is only an issue if we cannot split Combat Speed and Flight Speed)

5) Does the event break with the narrative of the work? (No, I wouldn't say so. The narrative required Piccolo to blow up the Moon and it's not like it was stated he couldn't do it. The event is consistent with the narrative... the speed of it inconsistent with everything else in the series up to that point.)

Again, I'm not suggesting treating Piccolo's speed this way is the only option, I'm just saying it's not baseless as an option.

These are all good points.

To destroy the Moon, Piccolo needed his attack to be as fast as possible given the massive distance between Earth and the Moon.

The Special Beam Cannon needed to be as strong as possible since Raditz was insanely durable and would not be affected by normal Ki attacks.

 

[Damage3245]

These are all good points.

To destroy the Moon, Piccolo needed his attack to be as fast as possible given the massive distance between Earth and the Moon.

The Special Beam Cannon needed to be as strong as possible since Raditz was insanely durable and would not be affected by normal Ki attacks.

That is a good point, yeah. Taking that into account would probably solve a lot of the issues here.

 

[Veronica]

@SSJRyu1

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

These are all good points.

No they’re not. Why would a random blast from a weighted Piccolo be faster than SBC, especially when he used SBC without weights? Higher ki output also increases the speed so this makes no sense.

You’re also making an assumption that Piccolo’s attack speed varies wildly, which both of you have no evidence for.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

No they’re not. Why would a random blast from a weighted Piccolo be faster than SBC, especially when he used SBC without weights? Higher ki output also increases the speed so this makes no sense.

You’re also making an assumption that Piccolo’s attack speed varies wildly, which both of you have no evidence for.

He also talks like Piccolo didn't need his SBC to be as fast as possible to hit an opponent consistently speedblitzing both of them.

Actual bananas.

 

[Damage3245]

He also talks like Piccolo didn't need his SBC to be as fast as possible to hit an opponent consistently speedblitzing both of them.

Actual bananas.

You realize that we're not ruling out that the Special Beam Cannon can still be faster than Piccolo's usual attacks but still not be as fast as his fastest attacks?

Let us suppose that Piccolo's fastest attack would have done no damage to Raditz. I'm not allegeding this as the sole truth of what happened, but this possible scenario would explain why he used the Special Beam Cannon instead; because he was aiming to actually kill Raditz, not just hit him. He was shocked because Raditz' speed still surprised him.

This is just a small point of the overall post though. If you want to dismiss my arguments as "actual bananas", that's fine, but it is so easy to spin this around the other way and just dismiss Piccolo's feat as "bananas" because there is so much contradictory evidence against that level of speed.

 

[SirAlex09]

 

[Veronica]

By that even Buu Saga SSJ Gotenks doesn't have FTL flight speed

 

[Damage3245]

By that even Buu Saga SSJ Gotenks doesn't have FTL flight speed

That is another supporting point I haven't mentioned yet, yeah.

 

[SirAlex09]

There are good pro and contra points ( some of which couldn't be debunked by either side to be honest) which is why I feel like we should leave it the way it is because the problem is that this is an issue in Anime in general. Travel speed is inconsistent and only as high as it needs to be for story telling reasons.

The same problem can be found in other Anime verses as well and even some of the Comics.

 

[Veronica]

That is another supporting point I haven't mentioned yet, yeah.

But it gets even worse, Mr Satan gun bullet was able to hit Buutenks ki blast reaching for him. So how far do we go with this?

 

[SirAlex09]

But it gets even worse, Mr Satan gun bullet was able to hit Buutenks ki blast reaching for him. So how far do we go with this?

MFTL Gun maybe?

 

[Damage3245]

But it gets even worse, Mr Satan gun bullet was able to hit Buutenks ki blast reaching for him. So how far do we go with this?

For that, we could attribute it to Buu simply being casual. He was targetting Mr. Satan & Dende after all, and didn't need to really put any speed or power into his blast.

 

[Vizer04]

For that, we could attribute it to Buu simply being casual. He was targetting Mr. Satan & Dende after all, and didn't need to really put any speed or power into his blast.

Not really, the blast had to be faster than Gohan so he couldn't protect Mr. Satan and Dende.

 

[Damage3245]

Not really, the blast had to be faster than Gohan so he couldn't protect Mr. Satan and Dende.

Eh... Fair point, though it's moot since Tien intercepted the blast anyway and Tien is nowhere near as strong as Gohan or Buu.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

You realize that we're not ruling out that the Special Beam Cannon can still be faster than Piccolo's usual attacks but still not be as fast as his fastest attacks?

...? What does that have to do with anything.
The thing is, SBC > Random Blast from a weaker Piccolo.

Because it has a higher power level, and that means it's speed should be higher unless implied otherwise by specific gimmicks,
and it was implied to be fast by his interaction with Raditz.

Both supports what I'm trying to say. Am I saying it's his fastest attack? No, but it's very likely it is on that arc.

He was shocked because Raditz' speed still surprised him.

Higher Power Level means higher speed, that's in-universe lore. He was shocked at the speed because he dodged the attack.
This already implies the attack is fast.

This is just a small point of the overall post though. If you want to dismiss my arguments as "actual bananas", that's fine, but it is so easy to spin this around the other way and just dismiss Piccolo's feat as "bananas" because there is so much contradictory evidence against that level of speed.

I didn't dismiss your post as "actual bananas", I dismissed a particular argument as "actual bananas".

What is this syndrome you have? I don't necessarily disagree that the value is inconsistent, I disagree with you saying SBC doesn't necessarily scale to said value when both attacks have a similar purpose ("hit X target as fast as possible"), and one has a higher power level.

 

[Vizer04]

Higher Power Level means higher speed

Not always

 

[Vizer04]

I didn't dismiss your post as "actual bananas", I dismissed a particular argument as "actual bananas".

That's irrelevant, you shouldn't be dismissing anyone's arguments with such a non-sensical phrase.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Not always

"Oh, oh, let me show you the specific example where that's not the case even though you already covered that by stating specific gimmicks are present"
Very good argumentation Vizer.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

That's irrelevant, you shouldn't be dismissing anyone's arguments with such a non-sensical phrase.

BECAUSE THERE WASN'T AN ACTUAL ARGUMENT BEFORE SAID PHRASE RIGHT?

Nah, you're actually just being absolutely ignorant, I'll ignore you for now.

 

[Damage3245]

Higher Power Level means higher speed, that's in-universe lore. He was shocked at the speed because he dodged the attack.
This already implies the attack is fast.

The attack can be fast without necessarily being 0.54c, no?

What is this syndrome you have? I don't necessarily disagree that the value is inconsistent, I disagree with you saying SBC doesn't necessarily scale to said value when both attacks have a similar purpose ("hit X target as fast as possible"), and one has a higher power level.

Dude, don't be rude. I don't have a "syndrome" here.

 

[Vizer04]

You should calm down, we're discussing something very important and we don't need your passive agressiveness, you're derailing the thread.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

The attack can be fast without necessarily being 0.54c, no?

Again, the value is the problem, not the scaling.
Random blast with lower power level isn't faster than named-attack with higher power level implied to be fast unless you have actual support for it.
It's as simple as that. You simply refuse to concede to that even though you have no proper counter to this. Probably because it's straightforward and it has reasonable logic, or something, idk

You don't think 0.54c is valid? Cool, then you just don't believe the random blast should be 0.54c because it's an outlier and has anti feats, or something. But don't pull bullshit excuses to dismiss blatant scaling.

SBC is faster than "random ki blast #364" unless proven otherwise. I more than satisfied my burden of proof. Leave this point be, and focus on the anti feat arguments.

Dude, don't be rude. I don't have a "syndrome" here.

Yeah you kinda do. When I attack one flawed point in your post, you immediately jump to conclusions that I disagree with everything you said even though I said the exact opposite multiple times

 

[GodlyCharmander]

You should calm down, we're discussing something very important and we don't need your passive agressiveness, you're derailing the thread.

Huh?
Derailing?
Oh, because I'm actually replying to the insane argument Damage made? That's absolutely hilarious.

I already debunked the "SBC isn't 'necessarily' faster than this random Ki Blast", and have contributed to the conversation present in this CRT. You're going to deal with me, either you like it or not.

 

[Vizer04]

Random blast with lower power level isn't faster than named-attack with higher power level implied to be fast unless you have actual support for it.

We have evidence, a lot in fact. You just don't want to accept it.

There's no other feat that even comes close to the Relativistic feat Piccolo did once. Piccolo needed the attack to be as fast as possible since he was in a hurry (Gohan was destroying shit and there was no other way for Piccolo to reverse the Oozaru transformation)

 

[GodlyCharmander]

We have evidence, a lot in fact. You just don't want to accept it.

You don't, I literally debunked it because both of you appealed to false correlations.

You have nothing, zero, nada. Being a denialist isn't going to get you anywhere.

Now I must ask, stop derailing. Either address my points, or stop quoting me.

 

[CloverDragon03]

If a character that can use a 0.54c blast is utterly astounded at another character's speed, then I'm led to believe that said character's speed is at least 0.54c. To me, it's that simple

 

[GodlyCharmander]

If a character that can use a 0.54c blast is utterly astounded at another character's speed, then I'm led to believe that said character's speed is at least 0.54c. To me, it's that simple

Yeah, you're right. Now, if 0.54c itself is an inconsistent value, than that's a totally different topic, and the value itself needs to be taken off the blast, I believe.

 

[Vizer04]

if 0.54c itself is an inconsistent value

It is, that's the whole point...

 

[KLOL506]

It is, that's the whole point...

Oh boy, now we're really digging into "Moon feat inconsistent with other speed feats" aren't we

 

[Damage3245]

@GodlyCharmander; I'm going to have to ask you, as a staff member, to take a step back from the thread for a little while and stop being so riled up.

Your posts have been unnecessarily rude and this back and forth on the thread isn't helping. You might think you're totally calm right now but the wording of your posts is not and you need to cut it out.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I don't get this argument, because the whole point of the 0.54c feat is that it's a blatant feat of speed (and strength too but that's not the subject here), and blatant feats will always be superior to normal stuff shown in the manga. We don't need characters to constantly show Relativistic+ feats in that saga just because, that defeats the purpose of these being feats to begin with.

This isn't just a Dragon Ball thing either, this applies in general too.

 

[Damage3245]

Oh boy, now we're really digging into "Moon feat inconsistent with other speed feats" aren't we

That was sort of the inevitable direction of this when you said you don't think travel speed is that far off combat speed in Dragon Ball.