Mario and Paint: Concept Manip 2 (First Half)

[deonment]

This thread has accepted that paint is conceptual in Mario(only waiting on the type atm) in Mario.
This thread is a remake of a thread Garchomp777 that was made in order to give certain haxes to those that use paint
Abilities that using and removing paint would grant are:

Spoiler: Wall of hax

General uses of paint

Conceptual Manipulation(As paint is a concept those who use it and remove it should have this ability)

Soul Manipulation (Paint should make up souls such as the ghosts that haunt the dark bloo inn and the shaydes that exist in the underwhere)

Matter Manipulation (Paint is the fundamental essence of all forms of matter. Includes liquid and solid)

Space Manipulation(Paint makes up space, as without it a hole would not function)

Mind Manipulation(Paint exists inside the mind, and colours your thoughts)

Applying/Using paint

Memory Manipulation(Restoring the paint to a toad's head gave him his memories back)

Poison Manipulation(By using Purple Paint; Roy poisoned Mario)

4th Wall Interaction(Roy was able to shoot the screen with black paint covering it and lowering visibility for the player)

Empathic Manipulation, Status Effect Inductment(Paint makes up emotions as during the Roy fight he shot Mario with blasts of paint that caused Mario to undergo different emotions which also gave different effects to Mario)

Biological Manipulation,Resurrection and Healing(Mid-High)(Paint was able to revive a dead skeleton and restore it's lost organs)

Statistics Amplification(By using Red Paint; Roy was able to make Mario attack faster)

Statistics Reduction(By using Green Paint; Roy was able to make Mario attack slower)

Corruption(Type 2), Possession(Black Paint Corrupted and Possessed Bowser)

Possible Pain Manipulation(When Mario came into contact with Black Paint he underwent so much pain that he collapsed practically immediately)

Removal of Paint

Memory Manipulation(Toad couldn't remember anything with the loss of paint on his head)

Death Manipulation (Removing all paint should remove the concept of life)

Existence Erasure(Removing all paint from someone should also erase them)


There are a few powers that I would need more opinions on on what they count as when Mario gets hit by blue and Yellow Paint it makes Mario only allowed to use blue cards and is not allowed to use blue cards respectively

I have decided to leave the character specific stuff fort a different thread because i am lazy and want a break also i need to go search for sources for the char specific stuff some of the stuff in that crt needs certain parts of this crt to be accepted

Note 1: Unless a character explicitly uses an ability in their fight or has shown to commonly use it certain uses of paint contained within the Applying/Using Paint section should be considered OOC

Agree:ElixirBlue

Disagree:

Neutral:

 

[ElixirBlue]

I agree

 

[deonment]

thank

 

[ElixirBlue]

Would this get its own tabber, like Power Stars, Royal Stockers and Pure Hearts?

 

[TUHTPeaSkull12]

I basically agree, also to add, when something loses its paint it basically weakens to a point that some of its abilities may not work properly.

 

[deonment]

Would this get its own tabber, like Power Stars, Royal Stockers and Pure Hearts?

maybe, it would depend on how much space someone would wanna save on the pages cause if they do wanna it would do good as a blog that we can just paste onto the page

 

[deonment]

I basically agree, also to add, when something loses its paint it basically weakens to a point that some of its abilities may not work properly.

i am leaving that for the second half

 

[Lou_change]

I agree with this and am now more excited for the second half.

 

[TUHTPeaSkull12]

oh well, I look forward to the second part.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

Statistics Amplification(By using Red Paint; Roy was able to make Mario attack faster)

Statistics Reduction(By using Green Paint; Roy was able to make Mario attack slower)

I think these two are '' Status Effect Inducement '', because from what I can tell from the video, the character faster when he's angry, and slow down when his motivation decreases. I mean, it's more like something with mood swings.

• Emotional State Changing: A more direct version of the above ability. This will allow the user to manipulate the enemy's emotional state, thereby making them infatuated, happy, angry or sad. This can be used to control the enemy, render them immobile or make them a non-threat.

...

Possible Pain Manipulation(When Mario came into contact with Black Paint he underwent so much pain that he collapsed practically immediately)

I don't think there's any need to write "possible", because it clearly shows this pain manipulation.

I agree with all the rest, good job man

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Conceptual manipulation isn't given for simply affecting a concept. You need to actually manipulate it. Just interacting with something physically is, without context, more a form of Non-Physical Interaction.

Some takes on the following. Anything not mentioned is fine by me.

-"Soul Manipulation (Paint should make up souls such as the ghosts that haunt the dark bloo inn and the shaydes that exist in the underwhere)"

What makes them Paint? In the first link they even get covered in paint, at the moment I disagree with this.

- "Matter Manipulation (Paint is the fundamental essence of all forms of matter. Includes liquid and solid)"

How do these links prove that? I'm not sure I understand.

- "4th Wall Interaction(Roy was able to shoot the screen with black paint covering it and lowering visibility for the player)"

Couldn't this just as easily just be Mario's own eyes being covered by paint, similar to like uh... in shooter games, for example, where you get shot and your screen gets the blood filter applied across it. I'm not convinced of this'n.

- "Empathic Manipulation, Status Effect Inductment(Paint makes up emotions as during the Roy fight he shot Mario with blasts of paint that caused Mario to undergo different emotions which also gave different effects to Mario)"

This is fine, for the record, I just disagree with making it Status Effect Inducement when Empathic covers it pretty perfectly.

- "Biological Manipulation,Resurrection and Healing(Mid-High)(Paint was able to revive a dead skeleton and restore it's lost organs)"

Again, I agree, but remove Biological Manipulation, since it didn't actually alter their biology at all. It just returned them to life.

- "Statistics Amplification(By using Red Paint; Roy was able to make Mario attack faster)"

Rage Power, it seems, not Stat Amp. I also outright disagree with Statistics Reduction for the next bit since that's implicitly just lethargy as a result of the Empathic Manip mentioned above.

- "Corruption(Type 2), Possession(Black Paint Corrupted and Possessed Bowser)"

Corruption on its own covers this without further context, unless I'm missing something.

- "Possible Pain Manipulation(When Mario came into contact with Black Paint he underwent so much pain that he collapsed practically immediately)"

Dealing damage isn't Pain Manip, lad.

-"Death Manipulation (Removing all paint should remove the concept of life)

Existence Erasure(Removing all paint from someone should also erase them)"

You literally didn't provide any evidence of the most egregious claims you made, could you back these up? Without any proof I'm outright saying no to this.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

"Corruption(Type 2), Possession(Black Paint Corrupted and Possessed Bowser)"

Corruption on its own covers this without further context, unless I'm missing something.

So could this be a biological manipulation? Looks like the written reason on the soul king, and a little question, is creating the lost limbs a biological manipulation?

Biological Manipulation (With the Compulsory, his nerves can invade the bodies of others to control their movements)

 

[TUHTPeaSkull12]

if I want to add something to the soul stuff, it is basically also because the paint exists inside beings like the boo who are normally represented as spiritual beings, which means that removing the color also affects the souls.

and the things of the manipulation of matter, is because basically without the color, the water no longer works as it should, also if it helps things like fire lose their respective properties, for example no longer produce some light source or give heat.

the possession is because the black paint basically controls the things it possesses.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

So could this be a biological manipulation? Looks like the written reason on the soul king, and a little question, is creating the lost limbs a biological manipulation?

I don't know the context behind Soul King. I just know that the above isn't really Bio Manip. And nah, not really? If you're just making limbs, it's Creation. If you're giving limbs back to folks who lost him, that's probably Healing.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

if I want to add something to the soul stuff, it is basically also because the paint exists inside beings like the boo who are normally represented as spiritual beings, which means that removing the color also affects the souls.

and the things of the manipulation of matter, is because basically without the color, the water no longer works as it should, also if it helps things like fire lose their respective properties, for example no longer produce some light source or give heat.

the possession is because the black paint basically controls the things it possesses.

If we're taking paint to be conceptual then I hardly see how Boos wouldn't have them.

That's... still covered by conceptual manipulation. All the way down to Type 3, I believe.

Corruption also does this.

 

[TUHTPeaSkull12]

oh okay, although this was more in case you didn't consider the conceptual stuff.

 

[deonment]

How do these links prove that? I'm not sure I understand.

Cause without paint water stops being being water and does flow, nor cause the characters to get wet, and with the coin it just cannot be picked up at all without paint

What makes them Paint? In the first link they even get covered in paint, at the moment I disagree with this.

Cause in a game about paint it would be dumb for something to not be made up of it, but for actual proof if you give me some time i can find the statement from huey about him saying that everything is made up of paint

Couldn't this just as easily just be Mario's own eyes being covered by paint, similar to like uh... in shooter games, for example, where you get shot and your screen gets the blood filter applied across it. I'm not convinced of this'n.

cause as you can see he shot towards the screen and if you look towards mario's model he has no paint on him and if the paint were on him he would be taking damage

This is fine, for the record, I just disagree with making it Status Effect Inducement when Empathic covers it pretty perfectly.

I say status effect inducement because just empath manip doesnt cover stopping mario from doing something even if he is under extrememe emotions he still should be able to use his cards and him traveling slower in the air, one does not have gravity effect them less or more through feelings

Again, I agree, but remove Biological Manipulation, since it didn't actually alter their biology at all. It just returned them to life.

k

Rage Power, it seems, not Stat Amp. I also outright disagree with Statistics Reduction for the next bit since that's implicitly just lethargy as a result of the Empathic Manip mentioned above.

see my response for empath manip

Corruption on its own covers this without further context, unless I'm missing something.

it took him over controlled his body and acted of it's own will, i am pretty sure that would be possession

Dealing damage isn't Pain Manip, lad.

ofc not, the part i am focusing on is when it hurt him so much that he collapsed from the pain alone

You literally didn't provide any evidence of the most egregious claims you made, could you back these up? Without any proof I'm outright saying no to this.

it is because as seen with the orange paint restoring life to the fossil taking it away should kill it, and for ee taking away someone's concept along with everything else they are made up of in the form of paint should erase them logically and in game they spin around, fall and vanish when they lose all their paint

 

[Mr. Bambu]

- "Cause without paint water stops being being water and does flow, nor cause the characters to get wet, and with the coin it just cannot be picked up at all without paint"

Concept manip does that to the same capacity. Without further context I'd rather not slap random labels on things that can be adequately described via what we have already, no?

- "Cause in a game about paint it would be dumb for something to not be made up of it, but for actual proof if you give me some time i can find the statement from huey about him saying that everything is made up of paint"

An interesting point of view but yes, I will need proof.

- "cause as you can see he shot towards the screen and if you look towards mario's model he has no paint on him and if the paint were on him he would be taking damage"

I see that he shot basically everywhere, yes. I get your interpretation, I just wish you had something more solid than an otherwise fairly common gimmick with games. Additionally, are you certain like... this isn't an ability of this character? Like frankly you're trying to prove paint, the main object of this game, interacts with the 4th wall and used a single fairly bad (no offense intended) example to prove that. Is there more, or is this restricted to this one dude? Do we ever receive greater context?

- "I say status effect inducement because just empath manip doesnt cover stopping mario from doing something even if he is under extrememe emotions he still should be able to use his cards and him traveling slower in the air, one does not have gravity effect them less or more through feelings"

I'm not sure if you've ever experienced Lethargy but no, that's pretty much exactly what that is. Sorry.

- "it took him over controlled his body and acted of it's own will, i am pretty sure that would be possession"

The paint did? Proof? I mean it clearly changed how he was acting, sure, but that's also what Corruption does. If it, as a consciousness, took him over, then that'd be Possession, yes.

- "ofc not, the part i am focusing on is when it hurt him so much that he collapsed from the pain alone"

Yes. And being damaged causes pain. That isn't the same as manipulating pain.

- "it is because as seen with the orange paint restoring life to the fossil taking it away should kill it, and for ee taking away someone's concept along with everything else they are made up of in the form of paint should erase them logically and in game they spin around, fall and vanish when they lose all their paint"

Do they ever take away the orange paint? Is that something they show the capacity to do? Furthermore, is it really Death Manip for just stopping granting them life? I would argue no. I'd also like to see evidence that the latter is actually done at any point. Your link isn't really proof nor is it as damning as I had first suspected- like they clearly exist after they become colorless, we can see them be colorless for at least some time, but then again, this is a video game and almost no games in existence make their character models stay on-screen once defeated. That's game mechanics. I'm asking for an actual bit of evidence, like statements or something. Failing that, I'm against Death Manip and EE.

 

[deonment]

Do they ever take away the orange paint? Is that something they show the capacity to do? Furthermore, is it really Death Manip for just stopping granting them life? I would argue no. I'd also like to see evidence that the latter is actually done at any point. Your link isn't really proof nor is it as damning as I had first suspected- like they clearly exist after they become colorless, we can see them be colorless for at least some time, but then again, this is a video game and almost no games in existence make their character models stay on-screen once defeated. That's game mechanics. I'm asking for an actual bit of evidence, like statements or something. Failing that, I'm against Death Manip and EE.

I'll be dealing with only this rn since I have a thing to find, yes mario commonly removes paint from enemies, hell practically everything does that, from shyguys to a goomba, so yes they have showwn the capacity to do, also Mario can just up and grab something and squeeze all the paint out of them. I am pretty sure removing the thing that grants life is treated as death manip on several profiles, also i would like to note that from memory within the paper mario series white is usually associated with stuff being erased as shown in spm but eh that is kinda up in the air as there could be other stuff that I am just not remembering

 

[QuasiYuri]

I agree with Bambu's last comment so far.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'll be dealing with only this rn since I have a thing to find, yes mario commonly removes paint from enemies, hell practically everything does that, from shyguys to a goomba, so yes they have showwn the capacity to do, also Mario can just up and grab something and squeeze all the paint out of them. I am pretty sure removing the thing that grants life is treated as death manip on several profiles, also i would like to note that from memory within the paper mario series white is usually associated with stuff being erased as shown in spm but eh that is kinda up in the air as there could be other stuff that I am just not remembering

Show me, then. I understand that they go colorless upon dying, but that's not quite the same thing. Also, "removing the thing that grants life is death manip" is pretty god damn funny, if I'm honest. I don't get Death Manip if I drain someone of blood or choke them to death. Sorry homie. No dice for Death or EE, still.

 

[ElixirBlue]

I don't get Death Manip if I drain someone of blood or choke them to death. Sorry homie. No dice for Death or EE, still.

I don't think that "I have blood, you have blood" comparison works for Color Splash, because Mario's enemies don't removed Mario's color to cause a Game Over.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I don't think that "I have blood, you have blood" comparison works for Color Splash, because Mario's enemies don't removed Mario's color to cause a Game Over.

That... doesn't actually matter to the point that's being made? His argument is that if you remove everything that makes someone alive, that counts as Death Manip. I provided two examples which clearly disprove that notion entirely. It doesn't need to be 1:1.

 

[deonment]

Show me, then.

here you go, whenever mario attacks an enemy they lose colour

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Is it at all possible that people are being dishonest to me, right this very second? I'll admit, I've not played the game, but a fairly quick lookthrough of the game shows me a couple things- like how things absolutely exist without paint. So EE just... isn't happening, given things that aren't enemies obviously and provably exist without paint. And, again, that isn't Death Manip. See my analogy regarding blood.

Remaining firm on my objections to those two abilities.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Paint is stated to be lifeblood.

Removing life is granting death, is it not? It's specifically targeting some thing that grants life and ignores dura to do so.

This isn't you physically draining someone of blood or choking them, It's manipulating the very thing that grants life in this world and it works on non-living things too, like the undead.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I agree with Bambu on no EE or Death Manip, id like to mention that EE would probably be an outlier due to Super Paper Mario and its EE/Void manipulation nonsense.

 

[Garchomp777]

That... doesn't actually matter to the point that's being made? His argument is that if you remove everything that makes someone alive, that counts as Death Manip. I provided two examples which clearly disprove that notion entirely. It doesn't need to be 1:1.

Conceptual manipulation is already accepted for Mario. This is just for what abilities it would grant

 

[Garchomp777]

I agree with Bambu on no EE or Death Manip, id like to mention that EE would probably be an outlier due to Super Paper Mario and its EE/Void manipulation nonsense.

Why? The void can erase paint

 

[DaReaperMan]

Why? The void can erase paint

The main cast resists EE off of SPM

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

Yeah, Bambu seems to make sense to me

 

[DaReaperMan]

Why? The void can erase paint

To be more precise on what I'm saying, I'm saying is that Paint doesn't have the feats to put it anywhere near the EE levels of the void.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Is it at all possible that people are being dishonest to me, right this very second? I'll admit, I've not played the game, but a fairly quick lookthrough of the game shows me a couple things- like how things absolutely exist without paint. So EE just... isn't happening, given things that aren't enemies obviously and provably exist without paint. And, again, that isn't Death Manip. See my analogy regarding blood.

Remaining firm on my objections to those two abilities.

I got a question for an alternative. If Mario isn't losing paint to enemies when they attack and cause a Game Over but enemies are losing paint to Mario's attacks and die or k.o., what is happening?

 

[deonment]

I got a question for an alternative. If Mario isn't losing paint to enemies when they attack and cause a Game Over but enemies are losing paint to Mario's attacks, what is happening?

mario resists

 

[ElixirBlue]

mario resists

What is Mario resisting?

 

[deonment]

What is Mario resisting?

everything in general uses of paint

 

[ElixirBlue]

everything in general uses of paint

All haxes happening through physical force? Which haxes?

 

[Garchomp777]

The main cast resists EE off of SPM

That's not valid, this just means its on a greater level

 

[deonment]

All haxes happening through physical force? Which haxes?

not through that, it is through enemies being shown and said to remove paint several times through the game, he would likely have resistance to concept manip in the form of concept removal

 

[QuasiYuri]

Tbf if Mario got all of his paint lost when his HPs reach zero, having the Sucking Shy Guy comes sucking his paint would be useless.

Also for EE: we see a bunch of colorless Toads during the game, and they sure aren't erased.