- 32,327
- 20,219
You are starting from several flawed premises. Neither of the two realms are universe sized. The universe already existed before the Soul King spawned into existence.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Bleach God Tiers for real this time
- Thread starter Arc7Kuroi
- Start date
- Status
- 6,105
- 2,510
its just that people have a hard time seeing or accepting any of the HTS being high or strong
- 8,136
- 2,156
And what part is that?
- 30,262
- 25,695
Yeah.
True Shikai Ichigo, and Yhwach with just the Almighty and no Soul King powers being Universal+ to Low-Multiversal is where the skepticism comes in.
If Yhwach was potentially Low-Multiversal by himself, without the Soul King, why did he need to kill the Soul King to remake the Universe? He was already that powerful by himself.
If simply having the Almighty can boost you from Continent+ level to Universal+ level, why did Haschwalth struggle at all against Uryu?
Could Orihime's shields really be on the level of possibly Low-Multiversal+ from a couple weeks offscreen training?
A lot of this is based around the assumption that the sealed Soul King's durability has to be equal to the full power necessary to create/maintain the three realms. Based off of a statement from Kenpachi in the Soul Society Arc.
- 8,136
- 2,156
He keeps repeating the universe already existed as if it debunks something...
- 1,059
- 342
Has Matthew actually provided evidence for his arguments? Or is it pretty much his head cannon?
- 32,327
- 20,219
Neither Naruto or Bleach have direct feats on Tier 2 level.
Nobody would argue about this if Bleach had something as direct as DBS Episode 12.
- 32,327
- 20,219
Assuming that physical strength and durability scales to the Almighty because both come from the same energy is the biggest bullshit. Almighty is non-physical hax.
- 8,136
- 2,156
He’s literally just dismissing everything. Even basic assumptions that dozens of verses make as Warren pointed out earlier. Literally a double standard right now regarding parallel worlds and being a universe.
- 30,262
- 25,695
Sorry. I'll try to re-explain.
My point was that the Garganta is not necessarily bigger than any of the dimensions contained within it. The three realms don't occupy a physical 1-to-1 space with the Garganta even though they're inside of it.
Like the TARDIS, for example. Hypothetically the TARDIS could be inside of a building-sized dimension, but the dimension contained within itself is much, much larger than that building-sized dimension.
- 6,105
- 2,510
Jugram does not get the full A only the precog
her shields does not really depend on training and more on her mental state so not an issue
- 32,327
- 20,219
Warren's argument was flawed in assuming that the Human World is equal to the universe when its not. IT's in the universe but it's not the universe.
All arguments in favor start from this flawed premise.
- 6,105
- 2,510
its really a problem that the HST have as a whole people have a double standard against them for some reason
- 8,136
- 2,156
It is though it surrounds everything. Unless someone is suggesting there is something outside the Garganta this is impossible.
- 1,059
- 342
@Matthew_Schroeder, tbf man, you're really the only one arguing against this lol. I think even Damage is more accepting of it .
- 6,105
- 2,510
yet other verses with vager or less info dont come with the same problems and arguments being use here
- 8,136
- 2,156
The logic is sound. It’s a common thing to scale our literal universe to fictional universes that our replicas of our reality. He literally points it out and links some profiles.
This isn’t some pocket dimension.
- 1,342
- 676
It is implied that Ichigo is on a par with Yhwach... But here yhwach was constraining his own power. I doubt it, too.
- 30,262
- 25,695
Please don't rely on fan translations. That one is wrong.
- 1,059
- 342
And I still love how Matthew isn't providing a single scan for his argument.
- 17,254
- 23,484
- Thread starter
- #181
That's the thing the Garganta doesn't need to be infinite to be universal sized. Regarding the term "universe" in Bleach likely refers to everything, as in the Bleach Universe is the Garganta, Dangai, Hell, Three Realms, and Valley of Screams. They call the Three Realms, "realms" so WotL is not the entire Bleach Universe, even if the WotL is supposed to mirror our IRL Universe. The Garganta is still a part of the Bleach Universe, and going by the poitn 2 TOAA mentioned, it would qualify for universal size. Then going by Isshin and SAFWY it is a spacetime, thus making the Garganta a universal sized spacetime.
What is the size of Hueco Mundo, WotL, and SS?
Regarding all realms we have this statement: “If the world of the living and the Soul Society could be likened to planets…” that if meaning that they are in fact not planets.
Hueco Mundo
We know HM has a planet and moon. There's a promotional statement that says the sands are endless, so if you wanted to take that at face value you could argue HM is infinite (not at all what I'm arguing). So we know HM is a realm that is potentially unquanifiably larger than a planet with an orbiting moon.
WotL and SS
We know the realms are stated parallel. We are shown that SS has a starry sky. Gremmy is capable of imagining a small galaxy, meaning he has to have seen a small galaxy before as the imagination is just an amalgamation of everything you've seen. We also know the Kon knows what galaxies are. Both of those imply that galaxies are a thing that exists and are common knowledge. Thus it is extremely probable that these realms contain galaxies. We also know the Realm: WotL is based on our IRL world/universe. Couple all those together, and you get that these realms are most likely universal in size.
I see Matthew arguing that the WotL isn't the entire Bleach Universe thus it can't be universal in size. Why? You're speaking like the entire Bleach Universe can only be as big as our IRL Universe. That simply is not the case. Bleach's Universe can be bigger than our IRL Universe.
- 934
- 325
"f Yhwach was potentially Low-Multiversal by himself, without the Soul King, why did he need to kill the Soul King to remake the Universe? He was already that powerful by himself."
because soul king was maintaining it and he would have to overcome the power he was exerting which clearly wouldnt be that easy
"If simply having the Almighty can boost you from Continent+ level to Universal+ level, why did Haschwalth struggle at all against Uryu?"
haschwalth already stated his allmighty is a weaker version
"Could Orihime's shields really be on the level of possibly Low-Multiversal+ from a couple weeks offscreen training?"
aizen already established she has the potential to break the boundaries set by the gods
because soul king was maintaining it and he would have to overcome the power he was exerting which clearly wouldnt be that easy
"If simply having the Almighty can boost you from Continent+ level to Universal+ level, why did Haschwalth struggle at all against Uryu?"
haschwalth already stated his allmighty is a weaker version
"Could Orihime's shields really be on the level of possibly Low-Multiversal+ from a couple weeks offscreen training?"
aizen already established she has the potential to break the boundaries set by the gods
- 32,327
- 20,219
But it's not the universe. Saying something factually wrong over and over again doesn't make it correct.
- 95
- 26
True. Many have that line of thinking. But if they are logical enough, then they should be able to accept it.
- 32,327
- 20,219
So you admit that the realms aren't the universe but part of the universe.
It doesn't have any evidence that points to universal size, I'm sorry. It having space and time isn't proof it's universal how many times do I have to explain.
Stars aren't evidence of universal size.
Characters knowing the concept of galaxies just show that the universe exists. I'm sorry but you need factual direct evidence and not characters merely being aware that the universe exists and that they are in the universe.
World of the Living is part of the universe as shown in Can't Fear Your Own World it's not the universe. I addressed literally all of this before you're just going in circles.
- 16,940
- 4,844
On this point, this is a matter of Jugram not being given the full haxes of the Almighty. AP is a different story.
And even if Jugram was given a weakened Almighty, assuming this proposal makes Almighty tier 2 in the first place, a weakened version would still be tier 2 due to the simple fact that tier 2 power divided by any facet of it is still tier 2.
Suggesting Jugram didnt become tier 2 when being given the A when Yhwach sleeps is suggesting that the almighty gets an entire degree of infinity weaker (or more) when Jugram receives it. Which makes absolutely no sense.
- 17,254
- 23,484
- Thread starter
- #187
One reason could be that Ichigo's Bankai was that strong that even if he had the power then he'd need more power to defeat Ichigo. This doesn't disprove anything.
Haschwalth admits that his Almighty =/= Yhwach's. Also Jugram's whole character arc involved questioning if his actions were just. So I'd argue he never wanted to kill Uryu.
Sure if the story writes it so.
Only for scaling TS Ichigo. But this doesn't disprove anything.
- 4,309
- 2,912
It can be weird to you, but that's not important on how you feel. What's important is how Kubo wrote and presents it and he does so with literal diagrams and statements.
The dimensions are all of different space and time. Dangai is literally a different time/space that separates Soul Society and the World of the Living. Both are of different space and time comprised of different matter. Same for Hueco Mundo as stated. The Garganta literally encompasses and surrounds all these dimensions and is filled with other small picket dimensions like the Valley of Screams. These are all different spaces as you can't physically travel from one to the other and are different matters. Nothing is outside the Garganta. Everything in the Bleachverse exists inside of it as Yoruichi explains and even shows a diagram for.
There's no other way to interpret this, we are told and shown the Garganta and its place in the cosmology.
- 8,136
- 2,156
You know what even if you argue the world of the living isn’t the universe alone; the Garganta still literally surrounds all the worlds which make up the original universe.
- 17,254
- 23,484
- Thread starter
- #191
I never said the realms were the entire Bleach universe... The Garganta does have evidence to being universal in size, Aura calls it infinite. I'm not saying it being a spacetime = universal. I'm saying it being infinite + a spacetime = Low 2-C.
You confuse me. I never outright claim that the realms are inherently universal spacetimes. My entire scaling is "At least Low 2-C (Garganta is a universal spacetime), possibly/likely 2-C (The realms might be universal spacetimes)". And the existence of multiple galaxies is quite the evidence to the realms being potentially universes in size.
- 7,997
- 1,321
Yet u haven't said anything yourself. Stop acting like a cheerleader/being useless and actually provide evidence like the others are
- 8,136
- 2,156
Don’t call others useless if you have nothing to add.
- 6,105
- 2,510
If you have nothing to add but insults then don't comment
- 30,262
- 25,695
I don't think this actually matters in determining the size of the Garganta.
They don't exist as physical "things" within the Garganta, it seems. You can't see any signs of the other dimensions from within the Garganta, and it's not like we could say "The Garganta is at least twice as wide as one of these dimensions since they both fit within it" because that's not how pocket dimensions work as far as I can tell.
Again, to draw an example from another series, it's like trying to say that a house is millions of miles wide because the TARDIS can materialize inside there. That's not the case. The TARDIS is just bigger on the inside.
- 17,254
- 23,484
- Thread starter
- #196
From what I've seen there's been no counters to this:
- Isshin and SAFWY confirm the Garganta is its own spacetime (I think we all agree on this)
- Aura says the Garganta extends to infinity, which according to VSBW "described has having infinite sizes or other synonyms, that should strongly indicate them being universes." Aura's statement is in line with the Garganta being acceptably universal in size.
- A universal sized spacetime is Low 2-C
- 11,203
- 2,966
The scans provided stated the World of the Living is a dimension and another says Soul Society is a universe that if tilt will collide and spilt into the World of the Living. Why wouldn’t it be? Half of infinity is still infinity. Both humans and shinigami know the word “Universe” in their respective cosmologies.
The Living World is a dimension. There on panel.
- 1,059
- 342
@BlackeJan, lol you sound tough big guy.
- 8,136
- 2,156
Of course you cannot see them because it isn’t outer space. The point is all 3 realms make up at least the universe. I don’t know what you mean by not physical things? The 3 worlds are separate. And the Garganta surrounds everything making it > that size.
- 95
- 26
What's so hard to get about it? A universe doesn't automatically mean that it's restricted to 3A. Otherwise U7 wouldn't be a macrocosm cuz it has been called as "universe"
- Status
Similar threads
