Bleach God Tiers for real this time

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Ok you didn't thoroughly read my doc, because if so you'd know that I scale the God Tiers off of the Realms being separate universal space times and/or the Garganta having a statement for infinite size.

1. They're not separate universal space-times nothing in your doc proves this.

2. Your final argument is freaking Buddhism which is not accepted you cannot scale fiction to religion.

3. Stuff like scans mentioning "universal equilibrium" is irrelevant when Earth is the only place with souls in the universe and they all go to Soul Society or Hueco Mundo. Something can be "universal" in relevance without affecting the entire size of the universe.

4. Proof that " 無限に広がる黒腔の中を彷徨い続け" is a literal size for the garganta and not poetical.

Also you are simultaneously arguing for four different things like infinite muken infinite individual realms and infinite garganta and presumably an infinite universe as well.

You just take anytime the word "infinite" is used and take it absolutely literally because you look at everything through versus lenses.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Matthew_Schroeder stop shotgunning me, let me respond to all your points before posting again jesus.

I am responding to your arguments as I see them. You just come here with an unorganized doc, drop a bunch of stuff on people, and expect people to not address it? It's better to address individual points than all at once for clarity. Also I responded to more points in the post above.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Also, im just going to post a quick reminder as I go through the sandbox that everyone PLEASE remain as civil and levelheaded as possible.

It goes without saying that this is an extremely controversial topic thats bound to get heated very fast. For once, just once, lets not make this into another "Shitfest #5000". Please?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

People do it immediately to poison the well and do victory dances before threads even start. It's extremely disrespectful and adds nothing. Posts like "Oh shit Ichigo stomps X now" "Boi this will be good" shouldn't be made. If you want to do this do it off-thread on your discord or whatever.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Boi this will be good

I meant how the thread will go if I wasn't clear enough

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

By the way...

"If the world of the living and Soul Society could be likened to planets and the pipeline that connected them were Dangai, the void of space that surrounded those was called Garganta"

"the void of space that surrounded those" bolded for your clarity.

This is literally stating that the outer space which surrounded Soul Society and the Living World is the same meaning that stuff like stars in the sky aren't part of either realm but of the Garganta. We know that the Living World is literally Earth, this is stated several times, and in Memories of Nobody both it and Soul Society are presented as planets that would crash against each other.

The Garganta is the space around these planets which encompasses them. But the Garganta isn't the whole universe either. The Garganta was created after the universe already existed.

This literally debunks everything it's amazing.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

4. Proof that " 無限に広がる黒腔の中を彷徨い続け" is a literal size for the garganta and not poetical.

Can you explain this in more detail? What does this prove?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"無限に広がる黒腔の" specifically means "Infinitely expanding black cavity". It is saying that the Garganta is an infinitely expanding blackness which makes sense because the Garganta is outer space and space is constantly expanding. It's not proof that the Garganta has infinite size.

 

[M11UTD]

Garganta is not outer space tf.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Garganta is not outer space tf.

It's literally stated to be a void of space that encompasses

 

[Ovrhide]

"無限に広がる黒腔の" specifically means "Infinitely expanding black cavity". It is saying that the Garganta is an infinitely expanding blackness which makes sense because the Garganta is outer space and space is constantly expanding. It's not proof that the Garganta has infinite size.

I’m not arguing anything here, but As far as science understands To this day, the universe is Likely flat and infinite, while also expanding.

 

[M11UTD]

This doesn't make it outer space since we seen them surviving in it, while Kenpachi as proven against Gremmy can't survive in space.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I’m not arguing anything here, but the As far as science understands To this day, the universe is Likely flat and infinite, while also expanding.

There are different models to the universe, one that the universe is flat and infinite where the contents of the space in it are expanding, yes. Others where it's not physically infinite and it is itself in expansion. Science doesn't know for sure either way which is part of the reason why one cannot simply scale fiction from real life (It's a useful parameter don't get me wrong) but often fiction can contradict reality and follow its own cosmological rules.

That the Garganta is described as an "expanding black cavity" makes it clear to me that the void itself is expanding.

 

[Ovrhide]

This doesn't make it outer space since we seen them surviving in it, while Kenpachi as proven against Gremmy can't survive in space.

Good point.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

There are different models to the universe, one that the universe is flat and infinite where the contents of the space in it are expanding, yes. Others where it's not physically infinite and it is itself in expansion. Science doesn't know for sure either way which is part of the reason why one cannot simply scale fiction from real life (It's a useful parameter don't get me wrong) but often fiction can contradict reality and follow its own cosmological rules.

This makes sense. Otherwise 3-A wouldnt be a tier here, it would just go from 3-B to High 3-A to Low 2-C.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This doesn't make it outer space since we seen them surviving in it, while Kenpachi as proven against Gremmy can't survive in space.

A possible counter is that the Garganta, as something that was created to house the realms, is different from the rest of space outside of it.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Let me preface again, primarily for Mat, that you can remove everything about Muken from my doc and my points involving the God Tiers stay the same. So, while I cannot force you to not talk about Muken, I'd greatly appreciate it if you dropped Muken until we sorted out everything else first, thank you.

I am responding to your arguments as I see them. You just come here with an unorganized doc, drop a bunch of stuff on people, and expect people to not address it? It's better to address individual points than all at once for clarity. Also I responded to more points in the post above.

You're still shotgunning me. I can't defend my points if you keep spamming posts man, if you have an issue with a point you address it and we discuss it and reach a conclusion before moving on. It's common decency.

1. They're not separate universal space-times nothing in your doc proves this.

SAFWY and Isshin state that time has a separate axis and flows differently between the realms. So yes there does exist a separate axis of time within the Bleach cosmos that splits the realms.

2. Your final argument is freaking Buddhism which is not accepted you cannot scale fiction to religion.

I don't see how the author's personal beliefs can't influence his own work. We know Kubo draws heavy inspiration from Buddhist mythology.

3. Stuff like scans mentioning "universal equilibrium" is irrelevant when Earth is the only place with souls in the universe and they all go to Soul Society or Hueco Mundo. Something can be "universal" in relevance without affecting the entire size of the universe.

Souls go to Hell, they get stuck within the Garganta and go into Valley of Screams. So no Souls aren't restricted to the three realms, we actually know they travel throughout the Garganta.

4. Proof that " 無限に広がる黒腔の中を彷徨い続け" is a literal size for the garganta and not poetical.

The character is giving exposition on the Garganta, why would it be poetical? If I walk in a room and say "I ventured through this red room" are you going to ask me to prove that the room is red?

Also you are simultaneously arguing for four different things like infinite muken infinite individual realms and infinite garganta and presumably an infinite universe as well.

You just take anytime the word "infinite" is used and take it absolutely literally because you look at everything through versus lenses.

I'm arguing Muken can be infinite (with how much you ignore my OP I'll probably remove Muken from the sandbox and doc since they don't rely on it), I am arguing the realms are the size of a universe not that they are infinite, and I am arguing that the Garganta is infinite. So no I am not arguing that everything is infinite.

By the way...

"If the world of the living and Soul Society could be likened to planets and the pipeline that connected them were Dangai, the void of space that surrounded those was called Garganta"

"the void of space that surrounded those" bolded for your clarity.

This is literally stating that the outer space which surrounded Soul Society and the Living World is the same meaning that stuff like stars in the sky aren't part of either realm but of the Garganta. We know that the Living World is literally Earth, this is stated several times, and in Memories of Nobody both it and Soul Society are presented as planets that would crash against each other.

The Garganta is the space around these planets which encompasses them. But the Garganta isn't the whole universe either. The Garganta was created after the universe already existed.

This literally debunks everything it's amazing.

"If the world of the living and soul society COULD be liked to planets"

Also the Garganta is not outerspace, the Garganta is a void of reishi that encompasses the realms.

The quote you linked was saying if the realms were planets the garganta would be the equivalent to outer space. Key word tho, IF they were planets. The quote in and of itself acknowledges that they aren't planets.

 

[M11UTD]

A possible counter is that the Garganta, as something that was created to house the realms, is different from the rest of space outside of it.

That's just headcanon.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

"無限に広がる黒腔の" specifically means "Infinitely expanding black cavity". It is saying that the Garganta is an infinitely expanding blackness which makes sense because the Garganta is outer space and space is constantly expanding. It's not proof that the Garganta has infinite size.

That's the google translate translation, which is not a valid translation source. If you're going to bring in your own translations, than I'd appreciate it if you broke it down and listed your sources for translation. Just as I have in my doc.

But as any person who's read Bleach can tell you, the Garganta is not outer space.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Also, for those that are responding to points I made in the doc, can you either quote them or say what page and section you're responding to. This way I can go to that section and better understand your points.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Here's a suggestion: Remove Muken from the sandbox/google doc if its not a factor in arguing for these upgrades please.

That will make reading and understand the proposals a lot easier as Muken is mentioned quite a lot throughout both.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

Also the Garganta is not outerspace, the Garganta is a void of reishi that encompasses the realms.

Yes,scan is this

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You're still shotgunning me. I can't defend my points if you keep spamming posts man, if you have an issue with a point you address it and we discuss it and reach a conclusion before moving on. It's common decency.

You posted a giant blog and I did my best to address it in my points. It's not shotgunning. You can respond to it at any time you'd like, now or later.

SAFWY and Isshin state that time has a separate axis and flows differently between the realms. So yes there does exist a separate axis of time within the Bleach cosmos that splits the realms.

This is not evidence that they are separate space-times only that they're realms. Pocket Dimensions exists and they have time which is something people seem to not understand in several threads. Shall we mention the ROSAT from Dragon Ball which is planet-sized but has hyperbolic time different from the rest of the entire universe?

I don't see how the author's personal beliefs can't influence his own work. We know Kubo draws heavy inspiration from Buddhist mythology.

And yet he differs from it considerably. He also takes inspiration from other anime and manga too but you're not going to use Saint Seiya to upgrade Bleach simply because Kubo was inspired by it I think.

Souls go to Hell, they get stuck within the Garganta and go into Valley of Screams. So no Souls aren't restricted to the three realms, we actually know they travel throughout the Garganta.

This isn't addressing my point that they are universal. All souls are contained in the Garganta and can go to several realms that are inside the Garganta. The Garganta isn't the Universe so acting like the Cycle of Souls reaches across the entirety of space across the whole universe is a demonstrably false fallacy.

The character is giving exposition on the Garganta, why would it be poetical? If I walk in a room and say "I ventured through this red room" are you going to ask me to prove that the room is red?

This is outdated and I explained my problem with it in another post, sorry for not making it clear here.

I'm arguing Muken can be infinite (with how much you ignore my OP I'll probably remove Muken from the sandbox and doc since they don't rely on it), I am arguing the realms are the size of a universe not that they are infinite, and I am arguing that the Garganta is infinite. So no I am not arguing that everything is infinite.

But you argued that Muken is infinite definitely in the SAndbox while also arguing that the realms itself, the Garganta, and the whole universe are infinite. This to me shows less a consistent cosmology and more that the statements of "infinite size" are either taken out of context or referring to different things (Such as a blatantly non-literal poem mentioning the moon and mars, or Ichigo's classmate swearing on the universe, or Ichigo metaphorically saying that his mom was "his universe" because he loved her).

Either way the evidence for Infinite Realms is extremely weak and circumstancial at best.

"If the world of the living and soul society COULD be liked to planets"

You do understand what "could be likened" means, right. IT means that they are similar to planets and are comparable. The word "likened to" literally means that something is like another thing, you wouldn't use it if they definitely weren't similar to it.

The fact that Memories of Nobody unambiguously and definitively portrays both as planets doesn't help your cae either. You also acknowledge that Soul Society is a planet to address the Yamamoto issue but then you argue that the stars of Soul Society are also part of it, when they're part of the Garganta.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also the Garganta is not outerspace, the Garganta is a void of reishi that encompasses the realms.

the Garganta is an outer-space like void of reishi that encompasses the three realms yes. It stills functions as the "outer space" of the realms even if it's different.

 

[M11UTD]

Again Garganta isn't outer space, there's zero proof to that.

 

[Alive90Achilles]

Oh boy...people really think a size not being specified directly proves they aren't universes.

Anyways Soul Society and the Living World were created from the old universe. The most distinguishable aspect between the two realms is that one is composed of spiritual matter and the other of physical matter. So it goes without a say, the matters wouldn't exist at that time as that is the facet which defines them. When Reio splitted the universe, the part which was of kishi formed a universe just like ours with few notable differences and a universe parallel to it….of reishi.

 

[Zoro21043]

the Garganta is an outer-space like void of reishi that encompasses the three realms yes. It stills functions as the "outer space" of the realms even if it's different.

as m11 kenpachi couldnt breathe in space but we know characters can breathe in the garganta
and we have seen how garganta looks from the inside and it doesnt look like outer space

 

[M11UTD]

Shinigami can't survive it space

https://**********.com/read-online/Bleach-chapter-578-page-7.html

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

as m11 kenpachi couldnt breathe in space but we know characters can breathe in the garganta

Still doesn't change the fact that the realms share the garganta so things like stars for the realms are part of the garganta.

 

[M11UTD]

We already seen the Garganta and there's no stars in it, anyone who read Bleach should know this.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

You posted a giant blog and I did my best to address it in my points. It's not shotgunning. You can respond to it at any time you'd like, now or later.

Shotgun Argumentation: "The shotgun argumentation fallacy occurs when one chooses so many arguments, firing many shots as it were, in order to disable your opponent from answering them all."

Well I can start over and just make a CRT that says: "Ichigo, Aizen, and Yhwach are all Low 2-C to 2-C" but of course my doc has multiple points, so people can see the full thought process. That doesn't change the fact that you can choose to respond to the points one at a time or shotgun me.

This is not evidence that they are separate space-times only that they're realms. Pocket Dimensions exists and they have time which is something people seem to not understand in several threads. Shall we mention the ROSAT from Dragon Ball which is planet-sized but has hyperbolic time different from the rest of the entire universe?

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here, could you please go into more detail?

And yet he differs from it considerably. He also takes inspiration from other anime and manga too but you're not going to use Saint Seiya to upgrade Bleach simply because Kubo was inspired by it I think.

Which isn't what I'm doing. What I am saying with the Buddhism point is this. "Being that Kubo draws heavy inspiration with his manga's cosmos from Buddhism, it is likely that Kubo believes his realms to be much larger than planets." <- This is merely support that the realms aren't planet sized.

This isn't addressing my point that they are universal. All souls are contained in the Garganta and can go to several realms that are inside the Garganta. The Garganta isn't the Universe so acting like the Cycle of Souls reaches across the entirety of space across the whole universe is a demonstrably false fallacy.

Is the Universe in Bleach not the Garganta and everything inside it? AFAIK your point is "universal can vary in meaning" which sure it can, but if we know the Souls can reach across the entirety of the Garganta as seen with Valley of Screams, then the Garganta is included in the "Universal flow".

This is outdated and I explained my problem with it in another post, sorry for not making it clear here.

You're posts are numerous and I have difficulty following them due to their sheer frequency, so if you could further elaborate that'd be great.

But you argued that Muken is infinite definitely in the SAndbox while also arguing that the realms itself, the Garganta, and the whole universe are infinite. This to me shows less a consistent cosmology and more that the statements of "infinite size" are either taken out of context or referring to different things (Such as a blatantly non-literal poem mentioning the moon and mars, or Ichigo's classmate swearing on the universe, or Ichigo metaphorically saying that his mom was "his universe" because he loved her).

Either way the evidence for Infinite Realms is extremely weak and circumstancial at best.

Yeah you're misunderstanding what you are reading. Because all I argue is that "at bare minimum the realms are universal in size, and potentially infinite" but I'm going to remove the stuff about Muken so it stops confusing you.

You do understand what "could be likened" means, right. IT means that they are similar to planets and are comparable. The word "likened to" literally means that something is like another thing, you wouldn't use it if they definitely weren't similar to it.

The fact that Memories of Nobody unambiguously and definitively portrays both as planets doesn't help your cae either. You also acknowledge that Soul Society is a planet to address the Yamamoto issue but then you argue that the stars of Soul Society are also part of it, when they're part of the Garganta.

You do understand what "if they could be likened" means right? The narrator is saying IF not that they can be likened.

Still doesn't change the fact that the realms share the garganta so things like stars for the realms are part of the garganta.

Stars exist within the realms, the realms are closed off from the garganta, but they exist within the garganta.

 

[Zoro21043]

Still doesn't change the fact that the realms share the garganta so things like stars for the realms are part of the garganta.

i mean yea they share the garganta ? that doesnt contradict anything it just means these universes exist in the garganta
you are assuming things rn when the manga contradicts what you are saying

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Uhhh no? All 3 realms are isolated. Hell stars don’t even exist within Hueco Mundo. So no the Garganta isn’t outer space. It’s a void filled with reishi.

 

[LightReinh12345]

Interesting Thread following
but U know it would be weird the gap between god Tier & top Tier so high lol(it doesnt mean I disagree, I am neutral btw)

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

As for the world of living being earth. That’s just no. The world of the living is our world entirely. It’s literally the real world.

Never once do people say “Hey let’s go to earth!”

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Interesting Thread following
but U know it would be weird the gap between god Tier & top Tier so high lol(it doesnt mean I disagree, I am neutral btw)

i mean no one really scales to the god tiers besides themselves as the only people they have fought and resisted are the other god tiers

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

but U know it would be weird the gap between god Tier & top Tier so high

It would be a gap, but that doesn't really mean anything.

Also, I have an idea that can help keep this thread focused and proceed quickly and smoothly. I am going to list topics in the OP in the order they should be addressed, such that it makes sense. I'll let y'all know when that's done.

 

[Zoro21043]

As for the world of living being earth. That’s just no. The world of the living is our world entirely. It’s literally the real world.

also this is from the anime showing the milky way galaxy supporting this even tho its obvious that its based on our world lol even in burn the witch they talk about dragon ball and noel is confirmed to be a weeb who watches anime

 

[AppleLord]

Bleach Cosmos and God Tiers [Outdated]

docs.google.com

Arc7Kuroi/Sandox BleachGodTiers

vsbattles.fandom.com

Both of the above should be the same thing (the google doc might be more up to date than the sandbox). The images may be hard to see on the google doc and if you don't want to click control+ then the images should be clearer in the sandbox.

It's a lot and I want to preface one thing: Muken's size is not at all pertinent to my scaling, I originally included it because it was, but it turned out that none of the ratings I derived come from Muken. I kept it in the doc for ***** and giggles, but it turns out to be a supporting feat at best. So I'd appreciate it if the discussion on Muken's size take the least amount of precedence among everything else in the doc.

I'll say it again, none of the God Tiers in my doc get their scaling from Muken. I say this so I don't get people coming in like "Muken can't be infinite therefore I'm not gonna read anything else".

Have at it peoples.

Can you download this entire document file and send it to me? You can upload it Google drive or mediafire. I can covert it into images and sent them back to you. But I’m not sure if links in the document will work afterwards.

 

[Slacjow]

Has anyone already mentioned that 3-A to Low 2-C are horrible outliers for Bleach?