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Itachi Outsmarts all of Bleach

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I forgot to add that Kisuke by himself without the Hyogoku can affect the Temporal dimension of the dangai


KingogKings777 said:
Mind showing me the hostility or we just gonna go off feelings here? Cause nothing I said had hostility in it.
Click to expand...
So did you just not see the line of that's a lie under it or what? Asking out of curiosity. Also lets ignore the definition of frivolous to while we at it. Kinda seems like you replied without facts.
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this can be seen as insulting the intelligence of Ant and it also sounds rude, I never said that you committed any reportable offense, but people can get angry, and making people angry in a discussion is not prudent
 
KingNanaya said:
I know the Hogyoku is able to affect the entire universe due to it being able to make a person as strong as the soul king, who's existence sustains Soul Society, World of the Living, and Hueco Mundo, which are separated by different space times. does this help any?
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The intended meaning of the Supergenius rating is basically supposed to mainly include scientists whose inventions can do almost anything they want on an infinite scale, including by significantly affecting time, but a previous error has created an exploitable glitch in our system in that regard, and it remains to be seen if I will be able to repair it.
Bastolan27 said:
I would argue that since the Hogyoku allowed Aizen to Erase from existence, the Kototsu who controlled space and the Temporal dimension(or dimensions idk which one is accepted in the wiki) in the dangai plus it at least being able to affect the whole space-time of the bleach verse.
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Can somebody list Urahara's and Aizen's full list of inventions, along with their scale and other capabilities please? I am not fundamentally allergic to a Supergenius rating here. I just think that the rationales here seem too vague so far.
 
BestMGQScalerEver said:
or you personally just have very untenable and arbitrarily strict standards for what qualifies for supergenius intelligence
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No. I just want the concept to be distinctive, not contradict itself, and actually mean anything, not be almost the same as Extraordinary Genius.
BestMGQScalerEver said:
Guess supergenius urahara is bust.
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Not necessarily. It depends on his inventions list.
 
Antvasima said:
The intended meaning of the Supergenius rating is basically supposed to mainly include scientists whose inventions can do almost anything they want on an infinite scale, including by significantly affecting time, but a previous error has created an exploitable glitch in our system in that regard, and it remains to be seen if I will be able to repair it.
Click to expand...
I saw the thread, yeah. I know I likely don't have a say, but wouldn't it be better to make a rating under super genius? like, have it be Extraordinary Genius, _____ Genius, and then Super Genius? The one in the middle can be for characters that are able to invent technology that far surpasses Extraordinary Genius and can be capable of affecting things on a cosmic scale.
 
Antvasima said:
The intended meaning of the Supergenius rating is basically supposed to mainly include scientists whose inventions can do almost anything they want on an infinite scale, including by significantly affecting time, but a previous error has created an exploitable glitch in our system in that regard, and it remains to be seen if I will be able to repair it.

Can somebody list Urahara's and Aizen's full list of inventions, along with their scale and other capabilities please? I am not fundamentally allergic to a Supergenius rating here. I just think that the rationales here seem too vague so far.
Click to expand...
Intellectual feats outside of the Hogyoku These added with the Hogyoku ones should be enough.

1. Aizen and Urahara are shown to be, if not equal, at least relative in intelligence and are portrayed as intellectual rivals, so both should scale to each other's feats. This is further supported by both Aizen and Urahara, making each one Hogyoku separately.

2. 3-A, possibly High 3-A, could be low 2-C or 2-C (since the Garganta is a spacetime (possibly infinite 'Wandering inside the infinite Garganta.' and a statement from a non-canon movie stating that there are infinite kyogoku's inside of the Garganta that with the canon statement 'Wandering inside the infinite Garganta.' could be used to provide consistency) which contains three universal spacetimes, but I cannot prove that he can affect the temporal dimension of the garganta, Although when you read the next feat, he should be able to)
Kisuke's Keikaigi technology manipulates the Garganta space between the worlds to travel through. Kisuke eventually masters this technology to open up a portal to the Garganta at will. The fact that Kisuke with just his technology is capable of warping a space greater than two worlds to travel through them at will is beyond even a supernatural level of technological prowess, but a universal one.
Click to expand...
The Garganta is space-time that contains at least three more universal space-times and 1 Unknown sized space-time with many more (arguably an infinite number of) at least star-level spaces. It's also one of the space-time barriers of the verse.

3.Low 2-C
This is further shown by Kisuke creating technology to counteract the time dilation of a realm itself. Kisuke's Kaikyō Kotei rods are creations designed to stop the flow of Kōryū in the Dangai, allowing to not only prevent it from trapping people who stay too long within the Dangai, but it also allows one to shorten the range of the Kototsu's ability to throw one off its temporal axis to the point it goes from being able to kill someone by throwing them off their time axis by centuries, to only throwing them off by a couple days. Kisuke's ability to do this showcases not only a technological ability to massively affect entire worlds, but an in depth knowledge of the world and esoteric concepts like how 4th dimensional space and time flow operate within his world, and how Kisuke can manipulate and affect these forces.
Click to expand...

The Dangai is both a Space-Time and a Space-Time barrier. Kisuke altered the temporal dimension or temporal dimensions of the Dangai. I said Temporal Dimensions since it was stated to have Layers and Layers of time, and time was 2000 times denser in it; I'll link two translations 1 2 (In my opinion, mixing and matching with both works best, but individually they are also fine)

4. Supporting feats or feats that leave room for interpretation
Caja negacion is a device made by Aizen that traps the target in an alternate dimension, presumably also created by the Device. Since the Device traps the target in an alternate dimension, each dimension is its own space-time in bleach, except for the Kyogokus and Soul King palace. Caja negacion is not trapping the target in an alternate dimension in the same space-time; it also cannot refer to any other known space-time in the Cosmology since all of them are connected via the Garganta and hollows, which were the only shown target of this Device can rip space to open portals in the Garganta and travel through it in all the realms connected to the Garganta which would mean that it traps beings in a dimension separate to the Garganta and by proxy its is own space-time. This is further supported by the only other pocket dimensions shown in the series (Yukio's), which functions in a time completely separate from the realms.

Denreishinki, although not created by either Aizen or Urahara, since both are the most intelligent characters in verse and Urahara made his own version of it, they should scale to it. The Denreishinki is a communication device that allows people to communicate between space-times. Since the WoL and The SS are separated by the Dangai, which alters the time of everything that passes through, and the Denreishinki is not affected by it, the radio signals it transfers should be able to bypass the temporal dilation or temporal dimension as a whole of the Dangai

5. Although I am sure there are more since I am exhausted from having to research all of this and write it, I will send this one, and if you need more, I'll try to make another one at another time with feats from the novels and such.
 
KingNanaya said:
I saw the thread, yeah. I know I likely don't have a say, but wouldn't it be better to make a rating under super genius? like, have it be Extraordinary Genius, _____ Genius, and then Super Genius? The one in the middle can be for characters that are able to invent technology that far surpasses Extraordinary Genius and can be capable of affecting things on a cosmic scale.
Click to expand...
But there does not seem to be a good distinction between that and Extraordinary Genius, or at least I cannot easily come up with one, and it also seems redundant.
 
Bastolan27 said:
Intellectual feats outside of the Hogyoku These added with the Hogyoku ones should be enough.

1. Aizen and Urahara are shown to be, if not equal, at least relative in intelligence and are portrayed as intellectual rivals, so both should scale to each other's feats. This is further supported by both Aizen and Urahara, making each one Hogyoku separately.

2. 3-A, possibly High 3-A, could be low 2-C or 2-C (since the Garganta is a spacetime (possibly infinite 'Wandering inside the infinite Garganta.' and a statement from a non-canon movie stating that there are infinite kyogoku's inside of the Garganta that with the canon statement 'Wandering inside the infinite Garganta.' could be used to provide consistency) which contains three universal spacetimes, but I cannot prove that he can affect the temporal dimension of the garganta, Although when you read the next feat, he should be able to)

The Garganta is space-time that contains at least three more universal space-times and 1 Unknown sized space-time with many more (arguably an infinite number of) at least star-level spaces. It's also one of the space-time barriers of the verse.

3.Low 2-C


The Dangai is both a Space-Time and a Space-Time barrier. Kisuke altered the temporal dimension or temporal dimensions of the Dangai. I said Temporal Dimensions since it was stated to have Layers and Layers of time, and time was 2000 times denser in it; I'll link two translations 1 2 (In my opinion, mixing and matching with both works best, but individually they are also fine)

4. Supporting feats or feats that leave room for interpretation
Caja negacion is a device made by Aizen that traps the target in an alternate dimension, presumably also created by the Device. Since the Device traps the target in an alternate dimension, each dimension is its own space-time in bleach, except for the Kyogokus and Soul King palace. Caja negacion is not trapping the target in an alternate dimension in the same space-time; it also cannot refer to any other known space-time in the Cosmology since all of them are connected via the Garganta and hollows, which were the only shown target of this Device can rip space to open portals in the Garganta and travel through it in all the realms connected to the Garganta which would mean that it traps beings in a dimension separate to the Garganta and by proxy its is own space-time. This is further supported by the only other pocket dimensions shown in the series (Yukio's), which functions in a time completely separate from the realms.

Denreishinki, although not created by either Aizen or Urahara, since both are the most intelligent characters in verse and Urahara made his own version of it, they should scale to it. The Denreishinki is a communication device that allows people to communicate between space-times. Since the WoL and The SS are separated by the Dangai, which alters the time of everything that passes through, and the Denreishinki is not affected by it, the radio signals it transfers should be able to bypass the temporal dilation or temporal dimension as a whole of the Dangai

5. Although I am sure there are more since I am exhausted from having to research all of this and write it, I will send this one, and if you need more, I'll try to make another one at another time with feats from the novels and such.
Click to expand...
We preferably need a more easily overviewed and comprehensive list of all their inventions. Interdimensional travel seems more like standard Extraordinary Genius territory than something created by Reed Richards, Azmuth, or The Doctor.
 
Antvasima said:
But there does not seem to be a good distinction between that and Extraordinary Genius, or at least I cannot easily come up with one, and it also seems redundant.
Click to expand...
I'm just bad at describing what I think it should be because I'm kinda tired. if it's alright with you, can I type up a draft and post it to your wall when I wake up?
 
It seems better if you send your draft to me and DontTalkDT together via a private message discussion thread than by posting it on my forum or wiki message wall.
 
Okay. Thank you for helping out. I do not make any promises though. Your suggestion would need to make good sense and genuinely be beneficial, and preferably not result in too much resulting revision work.
 
Antvasima said:
We preferably need a more easily overviewed and comprehensive list of all their inventions. Interdimensional travel seems more like standard Extraordinary Genius territory than something created by Reed Richards, Azmuth, or The Doctor.
Click to expand...
I'll list, highlight and explain why each one is important and why it is not simple dimensional travel.
Bastolan27 said:
Intellectual feats outside of the Hogyoku These added with the Hogyoku ones should be enough.

1. Aizen and Urahara are shown to be, if not equal, at least relative in intelligence and are portrayed as intellectual rivals, so both should scale to each other's feats. This is further supported by both Aizen and Urahara, making each one Hogyoku separately.

2. 3-A, possibly High 3-A, could be low 2-C or 2-C (since the Garganta is a spacetime (possibly infinite 'Wandering inside the infinite Garganta.' and a statement from a non-canon movie stating that there are infinite kyogoku's inside of the Garganta that with the canon statement 'Wandering inside the infinite Garganta.' could be used to provide consistency) which contains three universal spacetimes, but I cannot prove that he can affect the temporal dimension of the garganta, Although when you read the next feat, he should be able to)
The Garganta is space-time that contains at least three more universal space-times and 1 Unknown sized space-time with many more (arguably an infinite number of) at least star-level spaces. It's also one of the space-time barriers of the verse.
Click to expand...
Since he can affect the Garganta and the temporal Dimension of the Dangai, it should be a no-brainer, and it would not be disingenuous to assume that he can alter the temporal dimension of the Garganta.
Bastolan27 said:
3.Low 2-C


The Dangai is both a Space-Time and a Space-Time barrier. Kisuke altered the temporal dimension or temporal dimensions of the Dangai. I said Temporal Dimensions since it was stated to have Layers and Layers of time, and time was 2000 times denser in it; I'll link two translations 1 2 (In my opinion, mixing and matching with both works best, but individually they are also fine)
Click to expand...
He can alter the Temporal dimension of the Dangai to minimize its time dilation/traveling effects; although it is made to facilitate dimensional travel, it still requires him to alter the temporal dimension of the Dangai to achieve.
Bastolan27 said:
4. Supporting feats or feats that leave room for interpretation
Caja negacion is a device made by Aizen that traps the target in an alternate dimension, presumably also created by the Device. Since the Device traps the target in an alternate dimension, each dimension is its own space-time in bleach, except for the Kyogokus and Soul King palace. Caja negacion is not trapping the target in an alternate dimension in the same space-time; it also cannot refer to any other known space-time in the Cosmology since all of them are connected via the Garganta and hollows, which were the only shown target of this Device can rip space to open portals in the Garganta and travel through it in all the realms connected to the Garganta which would mean that it traps beings in a dimension separate to the Garganta and by proxy its is own space-time. This is further supported by the only other pocket dimensions shown in the series (Yukio's), which functions in a time completely separate from the realms.
Click to expand...
He made a device that can create a separate space-time.
Bastolan27 said:
Denreishinki, although not created by either Aizen or Urahara, since both are the most intelligent characters in verse and Urahara made his own version of it, they should scale to it. The Denreishinki is a communication device that allows people to communicate between space-times. Since the WoL and The SS are separated by the Dangai, which alters the time of everything that passes through, and the Denreishinki is not affected by it, the radio signals it transfers should be able to bypass the temporal dilation or temporal dimension as a whole of the Dangai
Click to expand...
this is only a supporting feat.
Bastolan27 said:
5. Although I am sure there are more since I am exhausted from having to research all of this and write it, I will send this one, and if you need more, I'll try to make another one at another time with feats from the novels and such.
Click to expand...
 
Well, I would appreciate if somebody can write an easily overviewed and more comprehensive list of inventions and other extreme intelligence feats here, please.

We need some grounding to see that Hogyoku was not a one-off fluke depending on an extreme cosmic entity power source.
 
There's also the thing about Kisuke modifying the Valley of Screams so he can enter the royal palace.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, I would appreciate if somebody can write an easily overviewed and more comprehensive list of inventions and other extreme intelligence feats here, please.

We need some grounding to see that Hogyoku was not a one-off fluke depending on an extreme cosmic entity power source.
Click to expand...
I'll consult more bleach goons and I'll see what we bleach goons can cook up for you although I'll do it tomorrow (NYC time) since I got to go to sleep.
 
Antvasima said:
We need some grounding to see that Hogyoku was not a one-off fluke depending on an extreme cosmic entity power source.
Click to expand...
No proof been presented for the claim the SK parts powered the Hogyoku, and that has been repeatedly debunked. I'd appreciate if you stopped repeating that as of it were accepted gospel without any further evidence. It's kinda regressing discussion.

It's also been shown that the Hogyoku can be recreated at will, how does that not prove its not a fluke? It can't be a fluke if you're capable of recreating it at will. It's your burden anyhow to show why it would be a fluke as opposed to it being ours to Show why it isn't.
Antvasima said:
Well, I would appreciate if somebody can write an easily overviewed and more comprehensive list of inventions and other extreme intelligence feats here, please.
Click to expand...
This has been done several times within the thread and you could just read the blog ngl? I'm sorry if that's not satisfactory to you, it's just kinda tedious for this to keep being asked and answered.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, I would appreciate if somebody can write an easily overviewed and more comprehensive list of inventions and other extreme intelligence feats here, please.
Click to expand...
I hope this is easy enough to overview.
  • The Dangai is both a Space-Time and a Space-Time barrier. Kisuke altered the temporal dimension or temporal dimensions of the Dangai (via an invention). I said Temporal Dimensions since it was stated to have Layers and Layers of time, and time is 2000 times denser in it; I'll link two translations 1 2 (In my opinion, mixing and matching with both works best, but individually they are also fine)

  • Since he can affect the Garganta and the temporal Dimension of the Dangai, it should be a no-brainer, and it would not be disingenuous to assume that he can alter the temporal dimension of the Garganta. (The Garganta is space-time that contains at least three more universal space-times and 1 Unknown sized space-time with many more (arguably an infinite number of) at least star-level spaces. It's also one of the space-time barriers of the verse.)

  • Caja negacion is a device made by Aizen that traps the target in an alternate dimension, presumably also created by the Device. In Bleach, each dimension is its own space-time, except for the Kyogokus and Soul King palace. Since all of them are connected via the Garganta, hollows, which were the only shown target of this Device, can rip space to open portals in the Garganta and travel through it in all the realms connected to the Garganta, which would mean that it traps beings in a dimension separate to the Garganta and by proxy, it is own space-time. This is further supported by the only other pocket dimensions shown in the series (Yukio's), which functions in a time completely separate from the realms.

  • The Denreishinki is a communication device that can transmit radio signals across space times without being affected by temporal dilation. It allows communication between the WoL and The SS which are separated by the Dangai. This means that it bypasses or alters or the temporal dimension of the Dangai.
 
Last edited:
Reio fragments aren't the soul reason it can reality warp. Hikone who had many reio fragments couldn't reality warp. Even fullbringers who had reio fragments couldn't reality warp on the level of the hogyoku. They are only given one power. While the hogyoku can make as many as it wants and create a god a being equal to prime reio
 
Added all the scans and references to the Intelligence sections.

Can I apply everything but the Supergenius stuff so we can still debate it? Everything else is uncontroversial.
 
Last edited:
Arcker123 said:
Added all the scans and references to the Intelligence sections.

Can I apply everything but the Supergenius stuff so we can still debate it? Everything else is uncontroversial.
Click to expand...
The updated Intelligence sections themselves seem fine to add to me.
So I personally don't mind if they're added while the Supergenius rating is being hashed out.
 
There are other revisions I want to add like some P&A stuff and other formatting things, that's what I wanted an OK to add.

Edit: This is still a general profile update after all
 
Bastolan27 said:
I hope this is easy enough to overview.
  • The Dangai is both a Space-Time and a Space-Time barrier. Kisuke altered the temporal dimension or temporal dimensions of the Dangai (via an invention). I said Temporal Dimensions since it was stated to have Layers and Layers of time, and time is 2000 times denser in it; I'll link two translations 1 2 (In my opinion, mixing and matching with both works best, but individually they are also fine)

  • Since he can affect the Garganta and the temporal Dimension of the Dangai, it should be a no-brainer, and it would not be disingenuous to assume that he can alter the temporal dimension of the Garganta. (The Garganta is space-time that contains at least three more universal space-times and 1 Unknown sized space-time with many more (arguably an infinite number of) at least star-level spaces. It's also one of the space-time barriers of the verse.)

  • Caja negacion is a device made by Aizen that traps the target in an alternate dimension, presumably also created by the Device. In Bleach, each dimension is its own space-time, except for the Kyogokus and Soul King palace. Since all of them are connected via the Garganta, hollows, which were the only shown target of this Device, can rip space to open portals in the Garganta and travel through it in all the realms connected to the Garganta, which would mean that it traps beings in a dimension separate to the Garganta and by proxy, it is own space-time. This is further supported by the only other pocket dimensions shown in the series (Yukio's), which functions in a time completely separate from the realms.

  • The Denreishinki is a communication device that can transmit radio signals across space times without being affected by temporal dilation. It allows communication between the WoL and The SS which are separated by the Dangai. This means that it bypasses or alters or the temporal dimension of the Dangai.
Click to expand...
Thank you. 🙏

Anyway, we have clarified our Intelligence standards for Supergenius intelligence a bit, and the above examples just do not seem to reach that high on their own, so we only have one invention that likely reaches that level, and Supergenius requires a combination of infinite scale and enormous versatility.

"At least Extraordinary Genius, possibly Supergenius" might work though.
 
Antvasima said:
Thank you. 🙏

Anyway, we have clarified our Intelligence standards for Supergenius intelligence a bit, and the above examples just do not seem to reach that high on their own, so we only have one invention that likely reaches that level, and Supergenius requires a combination of infinite scale and enormous versatility.

"At least Extraordinary Genius, possibly Supergenius" might work though.
Click to expand...
Okay, I agree.
 
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