Bleach God Tiers for real this time

[AppleLord]

**** you all Ben

Not a section. Half of the Universe was turned into Kishi. (Real Matter) Reishi existed before the World of the Living. Soul King created Hueco Mundo by turning the Menos Grande into sands of Reishi and Hueco Mundo out of the Reishi sands.

They didn't say half in the novel.

They said he split the old world into two. But if we assume it wasn’t really half, then the whole universe is made off Reishi and the Living World is just a small pocket dimension made of real matter. That would mean only our solar system exists in Bleach.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Please note, I will not argue with anyone on this thread at all, and after I make this comment, I will unfollow it as I do not care for the shit storm that I know will occur on this thread because god forbid that this weeb verse from a medium/anime someone doesn't like is this strong. These are just going to be my thoughts on what is presented.

As I have mentioned when you showed me this a few months ago, not the biggest fan of you using Buddist concepts that inspired Bleach's cosmology as a measure to tier anything.

But on that topic, I find the whole portion of Mugen/Muken's size completely superfluous.

The World of the Living is OUR universe - shares our geography, our countries, language, other planets in our solar system, etc. There are is also far more than just a planet as shown with planets, countless stars, and even galaxies being shown in space. Having a fictional city doesn't change that it's supposed to be our universe. To conclude that the universe just stops at an unknown point in space for no logical reason takes more leaps of faith and is less logical than just assuming that it's should be the same size as our universe, when that is clearly what the world is.

Occam's Razor should take precedent here, I believe.


On this topic, I would like to address the notion that you need to prove the exact dimensions of a universe for creation feats to be 3-A/Low 2-C and beyond, and how I find it to be a massive double standard that isn't applied on any verse, like at all, ever.

Where in Bruce/Even Almighty did they ever mention the exact dimensions of the universe? How about the universes of the Arrowverse, which is a universe that also has made up cities as well - the dimensions of these universes aren't ever mentioned, from what I remember and could search up, in the hours of terribly inconsistent levels of quality writing that is the Arrowverse.

These are just two from like a million examples. Almost no verse explicitly states that their universe is 93 Billion light-years in diameter, so by following that logic, why are there so many 3-A and Tier 2 characters?

It is because, unless the verse explicitly describes a universal creation feat from a world's deity as something that is smaller or larger than our universe, then it is assumed to be our universe's size. This is how every creation feat is handled, and not applying this to Bleach is a double standard.

This does not apply to pocket dimension feats, however, as they are different for many reasons, all of which I will not go into here as that would be derailing as it is unrelated to this thread's topic.


Back on to Bleach's cosmology, all three realms of existence are different (And parallel according to numerous sources) space-times connected by different space-times and both described and drawn as such, they are also surrounded by an infinite void of Reshi that is the Garganta (Garganta is described as infinite in multiple different sources IIRC, but even if it's not, its size doesn't matter).

At the very least, Bleach's cosmology is one large space-time that contains at least three universal sized realms, and would be Low 2-C. Or it would be 3 separate space-times of universal size, and would be 2-C. The second seems more likely to me due to things like the Dangai and Garganta's existence. But having At least Low 2-C, likely/possibly 2-C, and taking in both interpretations is fine for me.

I feel that you completely and utterly explained very clearly why the characters should scale to the cosmology and so I have nothing to add there.

However, I do agree that Mimihagi's feat is likely more hax-based than tier-based, thanks to the concept of Stagnation that it embodies. It also feels exceptionally weird to have one arm of the Soul King be soooo much stronger than the other, although I know that's not a legitimate argument. I just think that scaling Mimihagi should definitely be debated, likely for another thread in the future.


Well, that's all I have to say. Great work, it was a pleasant read, as I am sure this thread won't be.

Good luck, and good day.

 

[Zoro21043]

Kubo is vague as ****, but I don't think there's even any vague evidence either of them are universe sized.

wotl is based on our world
-has london
-real life celebrities exist that are known in our world
-they teach about stars in ichigos school
-they visualized saturn and jupiter in a flashback
-concept of anime and weebs exist

Not a section. Half of the Universe was turned into Kishi. (Real Matter) Reishi existed before the World of the Living.

not exactly half
imagine ichigo as the universe
now separate his soul from his body we now have 2 ichigos one is the spiritual form and one is the physical thats how the soul king made wotl and ss

 

[Alive90Achilles]

basically

Thanks for bumping it btw.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Thanks for bumping it btw.

np

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

wotl is based on our world

That has never been my argument.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Warren pretty much breaks it down.

 

[00potato]

Yeah shoutout the Warren, the absolute homie.
Pretty much what he said.

 

[AppleLord]

^^ this is from an interview with Tite Kubo for Burn the Witch by the way.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I disagree with Warren though. I don't think the Sandbox provides any argument for the Human World being universal in size which I broke down. It's all very circumstancial and taken from various unrelated scenes where people mention the word universe or planets or galaxies.

There's not a single scan where a person says "The world of the living is the universe".

Warren's whole argument falls under the fallacy of "Begging the question". It only works if you agree with the initial premise that the Living World is the Universe.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

What Warren said puts it together extremely well, props to you man.

One of the infinite Garganta statements broken down: Aura says 無限に広がる when referring to the Garganta, which directly translates to "to extend to infinity" which is different from infinitely extending. To extend to infinity means that the physical dimensions of the Garganta are infinite. Which Aura gives this sentence to us as exposition while describing the Garganta, so there's no reason to assume it by poetic language.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Dude it’s OUR world. Not a random pocket dimension. That’s the only relevant point as to the size of the Real World.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

One of the infinite Garganta statements broken down: Aura says 無限に広がる when referring to the Garganta, which directly translates to "to extend to infinity" which is different from infinitely extending. To extend to infinity means that the physical dimensions of the Garganta are infinite. Which Aura gives this sentence to us as exposition while describing the Garganta, so there's no reason to assume it by poetic language.

No, "extends infinitely" can also just means it extends so far you can't tell where it ends. It's very common figurative language.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Dude it’s OUR world. Not a random pocket dimension.

The universe existed before it was created through the division of Matter and Reishi and the create of the cycle. Therefore the Living World isn't the universe.

 

[Alive90Achilles]

Oh well Warren whether or u not leave thread, you made a mistake. So I'll address that

"However, I do agree that Mimihagi's feat is likely more hax-based than tier-based, thanks to the concept of Stagnation that it embodies. It also feels exceptionally weird to have one arm of the Soul King be soooo much stronger than the other, although I know that's not a legitimate argument. I just think that scaling Mimihagi should definitely be debated, likely for another thread in the future"

Sk has been stabilizing the realms for over a millennium....which wouldn't be possible if he ran on limited reserves. So for a fact we know he has infinite reserves which doesn't cause Mimihagi scaling to 2C as an issue.

 

[Zoro21043]

The universe existed before it was created through the division of Matter and Reishi and the create of the cycle. Therefore the Living World isn't the universe.

it is the exact same size as the original universe as all the soul king did was separate the spiritual universe from the physical
like how rukia uses her gloves to separate ichigos soul from his body

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

The universe existed before it was created through the division of Matter and Reishi and the create of the cycle. Therefore the Living World isn't the universe.

The Living is literally called our world. It’s the same as early 2000s of our world. All he did was make a Parallel spiritual world from an entirely new form of matter he made right there and make another world from the corpse of some hollow.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

1 If they are outright called universes or stated to be the size of universes by a reliable source, they should be considered universes.
2 If the size of the realms described has having infinite sizes or other synonyms, that should strongly indicate them being universes.
3 If they are outright stated to be completely separated by the barriers of time and space and either stated or shown to be reasonable in size, such as having countless galaxies, then they should indeed be universes.
4 If they're flat out stated to be entire timelines, then they are indeed alternate universes.
5 Being labeled as "Entire Alternate Realities" generally indicates them being called universes, but the context and semantics should preferably be specified.
6 If they're stated to mirror "The Universe" or "Our Universe" or "The Real World", they would refer to being universes.

 

[Damage3245]

so i was given this a while back

image0-6.png (1200×185) (discordapp.com)

apparently what was done is environmental destruction. the borders between the worlds were being removed

What is the source for this? Because "maintaining the boundaries between worlds" doesn't sound very quantifiable.

 

[Cyberblader90]

I would need to get the scan but apparently one of the translations of the novel though it could have been a fan one states that the three different worlds exist within the same space and that it's a few billion light years

 

[Cyberblader90]

That one was one of the unofficial translations

 

[Alive90Achilles]

the realm i dont really know about is hueco mundo cus we only have the planet and a moon

Basing it on showing isn't actually a good take. Tho judging it's size is iffy unlike SS or wotl

 

[AppleLord]

The Living World is a dimension. There on panel.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Living is literally called our world. It’s the same as early 2000s of our world. All he did was make a Parallel spiritual world from an entirely new form of matter he made right there and make another world from the corpse of some hollow.

yes and? Our World doesn't necessarily mean universe in the context of Bleach.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I would need to get the scan but apparently one of the translations of the novel though it could have been a fan one states that the three different worlds exist within the same space and that it's a few billion light years

big if true

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

yes and? Our World doesn't necessarily mean universe in the context of Bleach.

Huh? Dude it’s literally the creation story and now you’re saying it may not mean this. Based off of what? You’re not providing any arguments to me you’re just saying “maybe it could be this”.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

1 If they are outright called universes or stated to be the size of universes by a reliable source, they should be considered universes.

they're not tho.

2 If the size of the realms described has having infinite sizes or other synonyms, that should strongly indicate them being universes.

they're not tho.

3 If they are outright stated to be completely separated by the barriers of time and space and either stated or shown to be reasonable in size, such as having countless galaxies, then they should indeed be universes.

the former only shows they're different dimensions, the later doesn't exist tho.

4 If they're flat out stated to be entire timelines, then they are indeed alternate universes.

No because pocket dimensions can have time axis time isn't equal to Low 2-C.

5 Being labeled as "Entire Alternate Realities" generally indicates them being called universes, but the context and semantics should preferably be specified.

no because alternate realities do not necessarily need to have the same size.

6 If they're stated to mirror "The Universe" or "Our Universe" or "The Real World", they would refer to being universes.

They're not tho

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Huh? Dude it’s literally the creation story and now you’re saying it may not mean this. Based off of what? You’re not providing any arguments to me you’re just saying “maybe it could be this”.

Based on Can't Fear Your Own World showing that the universe existed before all the realms were created, more than one specifically.

 

[Alive90Achilles]

The universe existed before it was created through the division of Matter and Reishi and the create of the cycle. Therefore the Living World isn't the universe.

The old universe isn't the same as our universe lol. It was a chaotic cosmos where life and death were fused as one. And besides "Universe" being mentioned doesn't automatically mean it's 3A.

 

[AppleLord]

they're not tho.

they're not tho.

the former only shows they're different dimensions, the later doesn't exist tho.

No because pocket dimensions can have time axis time isn't equal to Low 2-C.


no because alternate realities do not necessarily need to have the same size.


They're not tho

The universe isn’t real. There’s nothing beyond our solar system. This is everything. So Dragon Ball fiction characters can’t be universal level because there is no such thing as physical distance. You want proof? Okay. they're not tho.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Based on Can't Fear Your Own World showing that the universe existed before all the realms were created, more than one specifically.

This is irrelevant. It’s our world therefore it has the same discovery’s, science, and everything. So yeah it is the equivalent of our world. You’re low key arguing that it isn’t and it’s either a singular planet in some void or a solar system with nothing beyond?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

There's not a single scan where a person says "The world of the living is the universe".

You're right, but allow me to break it down why the realms aren't planets. Also, there's still the matter of an infinite garganta, so if you're iffy on the realms there's still the Garganta that imo is more definitely universal in size.

We know from Isshin and SAFWY that area outside the realms is a separate space and time from the realms (ie its own spacetime). So there's proof that the Garganta is a spacetime. Aura says the Garganta extends to infinity, which even if you don't take her expository statement for fact, it doesn't diminish the fact that the Garganta is what encapsulates the entire Bleach cosmos. Plus Aura's statement is in line with point 2 from TOAA "If the size of the realms described has having infinite sizes or other synonyms, that should strongly indicate them being universes." So at bare minimum the Garganta is a universal sized spacetime, aka Low 2-C. Regardless of what you think about the realms, the Garganta still provides Low 2-C scaling.

I'll address the realms in my next post.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You're right, but allow me to break it down why the realms aren't planets. Also, there's still the matter of an infinite garganta, so if you're iffy on the realms there's still the Garganta that imo is more definitely universal in size.

I acknowledge that they're not planets but I don't think the Garganta is infinite.

The Garganta also in't the universe since it's apparently just a void made of Reishi.

 

[Damage3245]

it doesn't diminish the fact that the Garganta is what encapsulates the entire Bleach cosmos

I'm not as knowledgeable as others when it comes to Universal standards tbh, but in cases like this where dimensions are inside dimensions, then that doesn't necessarily mean that the dimension that contains the rest is the size of the Universe. Or a dimension within another dimension could be bigger than the dimension it is contained within.

The Garganta has physical space but it doesn't seem to be a 1-to-1 scale with any of the other dimensions. Ichigo and Renji could run from the top of the Soul King's palace down to Soul Society through the Garganta without having to cross a vast distance.

That's not the strongest point, I know, but I'm just saying that containing the other dimensions within it (somehow) doesn't make it Universe-sized.

 

[SilentBob34]

I agree with this, the only thing I'm iffy on is if true shikai Ichigo should be scaling to it.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

After reading through this i gotta agree with Matt and Damage

 

[Cyberblader90]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/794666095469527070/794673312399622204/image0-71.jpg

This is supposed statement. Cannot confirm the validity at this time

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'm not as knowledgeable as others when it comes to Universal standards tbh, but in cases like this where dimensions are inside dimensions, then that doesn't necessarily mean that the dimension that contains the rest is the size of the Universe. Or a dimension within another dimension could be bigger than the dimension it is contained within.

It's this.

Dimension inside other stuff doesn't mean other stuff is infinitely larger. This is the damage that dimensional tiering does to brains.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

The Garganta has physical space but it doesn't seem to be a 1-to-1 scale with any of the other dimensions. Ichigo and Renji could run from the top of the Soul King's palace down to Soul Society through the Garganta without having to cross a vast distance.

I don’t really get this point here

 

[Alive90Achilles]

Even if we ignore the size of Garganta which has directly specified....it wouldn't deter anything as it contains two universes. And the realm was genuinely created by Reio as it never existed. So there's no reason to consider it iffy