Marvel Comics: Infinite Dimensions, Oblivion & The Living Tribunal

We have been discussing the tiers of Oblivion and the Living Tribunal in the following blog post:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...Marvel_Cosmic_Analysis:_Oblivion_&_Chaos_King

However, it is very hard to keep track of when new replies are made, so we decided to continue here instead.

It is highly appreciated if the staff members first read through the blog post comments before replying here.

Also, this discussion is for the staff only.

As I said before, if we are trying to line up multiple arcs as neatly as possible, this would probably be the best way to go about it.

Abstracts' M-Bodies < Multi-Abstracts in their entirety = Chaos King < Oblivion, strongest of the Abstracts (transcends the others yet still has his own abstract chronal dimension) < The Living Tribunal, combination of all Abstracts and embodiment of all there is in the Marvel multiverse, including its lack of substance (Oblivion) < Beyonders (Come from outside the Marvel multiverse, able to destroy the Tribunal and all it embodies, but also have their own chronal dimension on a higher plane)

My reasons for this can be read in the latest reply chain on the blog.

I feel this not only unifies things the best and takes multiple arcs and issues into consideration, but also solves the problem of the Beyonders killing TLT while not transcending time/having their own time by which they are bound.

Of course, them dying to a Multiversal explosion is written off as obvious PIS, as the writers desperately needed a way to kill them.

Okay.

I am going to make a long post showcasing my evidence, would you people wait patiently?

I agree that Azathoth's solution seems most coherent and rational.

Based on our current ratings, this would be

Universal M-Bodies = Low 2-C

Multi-Abstracts = 1-B

Chaos King = 1-B (equal to Multi-Eternity)

Oblivion = 1-B (higher end, transcends the space of the Marvel multiverse, seems to be portrayed as above the other abstracts)

Living Tribunal = 1-B (higher end than Oblivion, encompasses the multiverse and all its Abstracts)

Beyonders = 1-B (come from outside the Marvel multiverse, fought and killed the Living Tribunal, therefore must exist on an equal level of reality)

@Matt

Of course.

Quick note though, I'll be gone for a little bit, so forgive me if I don't respond quickly.

I am fine with those ratings.

@Matthew Just remember to fairly include the contradictory instances that I mentioned earlier.

Okay.

I am currently very disattisfied with our High-Tier Marvel Comics pages. All our Multi-Abstract characters are ranked due to the showings of a single panel, and that's it.

If we truly want to be accurate and unbiased, we need to base ourselves on the multiple, supported evidence, regardless of our personal bias and wants. If a character has repeated showings of being X or Y level, than a single instance where the contrary was shown should not matter. Likewise, we cannot use date of publication and prominence of the story arc as an argument. All the stories and feats that are being showcased here still happened, and as such the ideal that is more pervading across the years and comics should be adopted.

As such, let's showcase various definitions on the Marvel Multiverse across the comics.




These pages, found within Doctor Strange: Sorcerer Supreme #21, are the most famous and often showcased definition of the Marvel Multiverse that has ever appeared, and in it they show that the Multiverse is made of a Cantor Sets, an infinite series of transfinite numbers, each greater than the last, starting with Aleph-Null.

"Before one can hope to comprehend the Multiverse, in even te most limited way, one must first grasp the notion that the very concept of "Infinity" is relative. For instance: Numbers are infinite. So are odd numbers. Yet, by definition, there are twice as many numbers as there are odd numbers. One "Infinity" is included within a larger "Infinity." (...) Goerg Cantor, a russian monk at the turn of this century, was the first to study what he called "Transfinite" numbers, starting with Aleph - An infinite series of infinite numbers, all greater than each other. Quite understandably, he died a madman. Yet, it is of such concepts and more -- That the Multiverse is made. For the Multiverse is literally a transfinite number -- That is, a number greater than infinity -- of universes. These universes are often popularly called "Dimensions."

"Further outward, we encounter universes whose number of Spatial Dimensions is "Irrational" -- As witness Pi, that mystic number which stretched onward into infinity. And human visual representation of these universes is necessarily distorted or incomplete. Among these are Tiboro's "Sixth Dimension" -- Tazzas Lonely Domain -- Nighmare's Dimension of Dreams -- And the Dark Dimension, of which more will be said. There are universes whose number of Spatial Dimensions range between 2.7268409 (etc.) and 6.2985923 (etc.). Though natural laws therein may range from Science and Magic, these all share a commonality of Concepts. Hence the are grouped together into a Cluster. Man's cluster is one of the responsabilities of the All-Powerful Being known as The Living Tribunal. Journeying towards "Lower" Universes with fewer than 2.7268409 (etc.) dimensions -- or toward "Higher" ones with more than 6.2985923 (Etc). -- One enters universes which are truly different. Yet, even there, life exists -- albeit in forms totally inconceivable to mankind. There, The Living Tribunal takes other shapes to administer the other clusters. (...)"

Read the underline quotes. It establishes what a transfinite number is, and how there are infinite transfinite numbers out there. It establishes how these transfinite universes are called dimensions, and how these universes are grouped into clusters that either share the same dimensions, physical laws, etc. There is an infinite number of clusters, and given that the Multiverse encompasses the full-extent of Cantor's Transfinite-Set concept, it can't be anything but High 1-B. TheLivingTribunal1 can give more input into this.



Another well known evidence, from Defenders #3. Here, the Multiversal Eternity is defined as:

Worlds within worlds! Dimensions folding onto themselves! Entire universes being born... And collapsing into ruin! And yet I sense that all this -- is but the merest fraction of what Eternity is!

And the outside of the Multiversal Eternity's self?

In a place that exists beyond all time and space, that transcends all levels of reality and dream

So this 100% establishes that the Multiversal Eternity is made of infinite dimensions and worlds contained within other worlds. This is identical to the Cosmology seem within series like The Dark Tower, an infinite hierarchy contained of endless dimensional layers. And since the outside of Multi-Eternity is a Hyperdimensional boundless nothingness outside of all space and time, transcending all reality and dream, this is further confirmed.



Within Fantastic Four #51, Reed Richards travels into Subspace, first encountering a 4-Dimensional realm within it, and then traveling further and finding a realm of infinite dimensions.

It's almost more than human eyes can bear! I'm actually witnessing a Four Dimensional Universe-- But the effect of seeing it with Three-Dimensional Vision is indescribable!

I've done it!! I'm drifting into a world of limitless dimensions!! It's the Crossroads of Infinity -- The junction of Everywhere!

And before you say that the second quote isn't specifying Spatial Dimensions, it literally happens in the very next page after the first one. Reed described a universe with 4 Spatial Dimensions, and after exploring more he found a universe containing Infinite Dimensions.


Behold those who transact on Transfinite Levels of Existence which humankind will not even imagine for tens of thousands of years

According to this storyline, the Abstracts exist on transfinite levels of existence that are far above everything in human imagination and science. Perhaps hyperbolic and outlierish for the weakest Abstracts? Sure, but it is yet another evidence of Multi-Abstracts easily qualifying for High 1-B.


As we know, The Pre-Retcon Beyonder was explicitly described as Infinite-Dimensional.

"Physical?" having but three dimensions instead of an infinite number? Such a thing was unknown to him.

He was also one with the Beyond-Realm, which was in-fact just another Multiverse. And the main Marvel Multiverse was also defined as Infinite-Dimensional within Secret Wars II.



The Beyonder is not from a different dimension or a different planet, he is from a whole different universe - actually a whole different multi-verse.

He decided that it was time to investigate a rather odd thing he had noticed about our universe -- Namely that it is Many-Layered -- Composed of a seemingly endless number of dimensions. Indeed, it is a Multiverse -- Beckoning him to explore.

The mention of the Multiverse being composed of infinite layers of dimension would confirm that they are Spatial Dimensions. And while The Beyonder and the Beyond-Realm's power were later retconned and greatly reduced, the Multiverse's nature was not. In fact, there is a storyline specifically dealing with the Retconned Beyonder that supports this view.



Yes, our might is infinite, but there are levels of Infinity.

Consider then, the set called whole numbers -- 1, 2, 3, 4, and so on. Is it not Infinite?

Then consider the set called even numbers -- 2, 4, 6, , and so on -- How long is it?

Half of infinity is still infinity. And the same would be true of the set of odd numbers?

Both sets are infinite, and yet the set of whole numbers contains both subsets, and is therefore twice as large as either subset alone. Thus are demonstrated two levels of infinity. There are, of course, an infinite number more.

Once again, an usage of Cantor's Transfinite concepts, and infinite sets of infinities each greater than the previous.


Within the pages of New Exiles, the Omniverse (Which according to the storyline is infinite multiverses, is composed of:

Imagine -- dimension after dimension, stacked one beside the other, stretching across the breadth of conceptual infinity.

Infinite dimensions stacked / layered next to each other, stretching across conceptual infinity.



More evidence, from the Infinity Abyss storyline. Adam Warlock ecapes the universe he's in through a portal:

A portal to the realms beyond time and space.

I was indeed outside the influence of Eternity and Infinity. Untouched by either Time or Space. It was a Vortex of Myriad Alls, spiraling upwards into an infinity beyond infinity.

Need I say more? This is 100% explicit in showcasing how the Marvel reality is made of infinite levels of infinite and how there is a boundless void beyond it all. Oh, and also a direct reference to Oblivion being outside this all too:

My all was adrift, nearing the edge of Oblivion.



During the Incredible Hercules comic, Amadeus Cho has this to say:

He can't risk anyone with a -- a "Hypermind" like ours -- Who can observe the Multiverse on Infinite Levels, seeing through his façade -- Yanking back the curtain -- Collapsing the Wave Function of all possible worlds

Another description of the Multiverse containing infinite levels, coupled with a direct mention of Wave Functions:

According to the superposition principle of quantum mechanics, wave functions can be added together and multiplied by complex numbers to form new wave functions and form a Hilbert space.

This is yet another evidence that the Marvel Multiverse is an Infinite-Dimensional Hilbert Space.

For evidence that Oblivion might be 1-A, as he is beyond time, space and the already proven Infinite-Dimensional Multiverse:


His realm is described as: Somewhere that has no time nor place, beyond the ken of mortals...




You are here because you ceased to exist. You have come to The One who embodies non-existence. You have come to Oblivion. Before the multiverse was... I was. A the end of all things... I wait. I am the void... The breath between life and death... Between death and rebirth. Between heaven and hell. My true form is beyond that which you see. I transcend form -- and shape and substance. This body... This realm... And everyone and everything IN it... Are my Creations.

And: "Return now to non-being... Feel the consciousness draining from you. Fell all that you are stripped away... Consumed. You are beyond loneliness. Beyond pain. Beyond even the memory of what you once were. Oblivion is all that -- and more. For unlike you... I have consciousness of what I am. I feel every ripple in the sea of eternal emptiness... Every ebb in the tide of eternal nihility. Death has his joys... As do Love, Eternity and the countless other cosmic deities who play their parts in the Divine Drama... But Oblivion... Has nothing.

Confirming that Oblivion is a void of pure nothingness existing outside time, space and substance, and who predates the Multiverse, and how most other Abstracts are beneath him.


Before Creation was... I was. Where Creation ends... I wait. I am the Void. The breath between life and death. Between death and rebirth. The Nothing -- From which The Everything springs. This form you see, this throne I sit upon -- Are illusions... Created for your benefit, not mine. For if you looked upon me as I truly am you would cease to exist. A state of affairs that would please me to no end.

Once again, Oblivion's nature as the Embodiment of pure nothingness and a complete void is reinforced.




The Chaos King is the darkness and chaos that existed before existence itself. He is an Anti-God. The void against which I am defined. He and I walk hand in hand. If I fight him, I fight myself.

Confirming that Chaos King = Multi-Eternity, as Chaos King is seeking to destroy the entire Multiverse in the arc.


Amatsu-Mikaboshi is just Oblivion's avatar.

Now, for fairness sake, what goes against the Multiverse being Infinite-Dimensional and Oblivion being vastly superior to the other Abstracts and beyond all dimensional space and time?

For the former, a 16th Dimensional Multiversal Superspace was mentioned once.

For the later, Quasar #25 defined Oblivion as equal to Eternity, Infinity and Death. Though Quasar #37 established that this storyline happened between M-Bodies of all the entities, so it's irrelevant.

Oh, and the Handbook said that Oblivion has a temporal axis.

Weather or not 1-A Oblivion is agreed on or not, one thing is for certain: 1-B Marvel Multiverse and Multi-Abstracts is immense lowballing, and they should all be upgraded to High 1-B.

I personally believe that Oblivion is 1-A, though if that scales or not to The Living Tribunal, I am unsure.

Well, going by Wikipedia, "Transfinite numbers are numbers that are "infinite" in the sense that they are larger than all finite numbers, yet not necessarily absolutely infinite".

Hence, simply mentioning increasing levels of infinity, without mentioning infinite levels of infinity does not at all convince me.

Similarly, Dormammu and Umar have consistently been portrayed as Low 2-C, or at best 2-A, so scaling them or Multi-Eternity (a creature made of tiem and space) as 1-A seems highly irrational.

Secret Wars II was retconned, and as such cannot be used.

Reed Richards perceiving infinite dimensions is highly uncertain, as Marvel tends to switch between using the term for either geometry or parallell universes. Going straight from 4-D to Hilbert Space is highly suspicious in that regard, and it makes better sense if he simply perceived thd parallell 3-D universes present in 4-D space.

Exiles dealt with travel between alternative universes, and as such the term dimension seems to refer to them in this case.

I am uncertain about the Infinity Abyss, as it is ambiguously worded.

However, the wave function mention is far more reliable, and I will try to consider the rest. I would, however, prefer input from DarkLK regarding this important a change.

TheLivingTribunal1 can explain you best dealing with Transfinite Numbers, and the full extent of Aleph-Sets is High 1-B.

It doesn't matter if it's an outlier for Dormammu. The feat is trying to upgrade Eternity, not them. And the feat is not an outlier for Multi-Eternity. If Hulk punches a Planet into exploding in one storyline and is later hurt by Black Panther in the same storyline, the second outlier does not invalidate the first feat. Hence, this is a non-argument.

No, Beyonder's power in Secret Wars II was retconned, not the event entirely. The Multiverse having infinite dimensions in it was never retconned, instead reinforced.

Nope. The two Fantastic Four scans make it clear they were talking of Spatial Dimensions, and it doesn't matter if you think they seen questionable to go from 4D to Infinite-D. It happened, so it doesn't matter if you think it makes little sense.

Also, to quote my previous post regarding the Living Tribunal:

It was established to be the sum totality of the multiversal abstract entities in the late 1980s Silver Surfer #31, by the then prominent writer Steve Engleheart.

It was stated to be the embodiment of the sum totality of a multiverse in the extremely prominent Time Runs Out event, by Jonathan Hickman.

In conjunction, the entity was killed by the Beyonders, who very explicitly do not transcend the concept of time. If they were level 1-A, they definitely would.

Its highest explicit feat feat was to appear in 16-dimensional space, in a mid-1990s Fantastic Four Annual.

When a version of Adam Warlock explicitly gained power equal to the LT in the Infinity Finale, a realm beyond time and space was considered far above him.

This version of the Tribunal was easily killed by the multiversal entities Chaos and Order.

So, given this, I am still not comfortable with scaling it to 1-A.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrU9YDoXE88

Here's a video from Vsauce explaining what Aleph and Transfinite are.

https://youtu.be/SrU9YDoXE88?t=912

Here is the most relevant part, where he explains the "Replacement Axiom" of Aleph Sets. The highest level of infinite levels of transfinite numbers are High 1-B.

I already disproven it's best feat being 1-B. You are choosing 1 panel in place of over a dozen different comics.

I updated my first post.

Anyway, please understand that going by our geometry-based system, even one level higher in the dimensional hierarchy is a beyond countably infinite number of times greater than the preceding number. Hence, we have to be extremely careful to not assign infinite-dimensional interpretations and above without explicit mentions of this. DarkLK previously showed me the above scans from Doctor Strange, and he did not consider them as proof of a High 1-B Tribunal.

Multi-Eternity is a creature of time and space per definition. 1-A is quite beyond that.

If the Beyonder was retconned, so were his perceptions of reality.

It does matter, considering the context that parallell universes would take up a 4-D spatial dimension, and that Marvel tends to use the terms interchangeably.

Well, I am willing to reconsider if TLT1 considers this reliable, but would much prefer to hear from DarkLK before accepting this.

When have I said Multi-Eternity is 1-A? I said it was High 1-B.

An Inacessible Cardinal within Aleph-Sets is At least High 1-B.

Why would the Beyonder's perceptions of Reality if even humans with superhuman intellect / hyperminds can realize that the Multiverse has infinite dimensions? The Beyonder has Cosmic Awareness.

No, it doesn't matter. Your argument is completely ignoring the actual scans. This is wishful thinking. Reed Richards described a universe with 4 Spatial Dimensions, and on the very next scan he described one with infinite dimension. Your argument requires such suspention of disbelief and a "Writers are idiots!" that I would recommend you not using it.

I don't feel myself knowledgeable enough on these things to comment on it, so I just came by to say, let's check our comments for any aggressive-sounding words so we stay chill.

Well, the Defenders scan with Dormammu is usually used to attempt to upgrade everybody involved to 1-A, but my apologies if I misunderstood.

I have asked DarkLK for input.

To elaborate why I think your argument regarding the Fantastic Four scans are really bad...

Reed says: "It's almost more than human eyes can bear! I'm actually witnessing a Four Dimensional Universe-- But the effect of seeing it with Three-Dimensional Vision is indescribable!"

Then, two panels and three speech bubbles later he says, using the word "Dimension" for the first time ever since he used it for Spatial Dimensions: "I've done it!! I'm drifting into a world of limitless dimensions!! It's the Crossroads of Infinity -- The junction of Everywhere!"

It can only mean Infinite Spatial Dimensions. You absolutely cannot insist that they mean anything but on this instance based on later instances, nor can you handwave it as an author not knowing what Spatial Dimensions are or using dimensions to mean universes, as in the first line established then as Spatial Dimensions. To insist that this is not be used, is to apply an incredibly poor "Yes, it could mean this, but it could also mean the opposite so it cannot be used" non-argument. Something that is incredibly fallacious and shows a complete lack of usage of Occam's Razor.

It'd be akin to interpreting the following dialogue:

Character A: I love toast for breakfast, and i specially love it with fresh Strawberry Jam.

• Character A Opens Fridge

Character A: Oh no, there's no Jam on the fridge!

as:

"Well, the second line didn't explicitly say that there was no Strawberry Jam, so he could be referring to Grape Jam, as the world Jam can mean jams of any type.

The difference is that 4-Dimensional space can incorporate an infinite number of 3-D universes, but I am willing to reevaluate if DarkLK accepts your rationale.

Given all of the inherent contradictions and extremely low showings of thd characters in question, not to mention the absolute mess that attempting to power-scale them would create, I am very hesitant to allow this without his approval. I do not wish to accidentally rank all of the Marvel cosmic entities enormously higher than warranted.

For example, within the Abraxas story, Multi-Eternity was simply treated as the sum totality of all parallell universes, and this approach seems to have been mirrorred recently in the Ultimates comicbook.

"Inherent Contradictions"

None of my scans contradict each other, and Infinite-Dimensional Marvel is far more prominent than 16D.

"Extremely low showings"

Should we downgrade Thor to Wall Level because he has extremely low showing Wall Levels? No, so why bring that as an argument?

"not to mention the absolute mess that attempting to power-scale them would create"

The 1-B Characters become High 1-B. That's it.

"within the Abraxas story, Multi-Eternity was simply treated as the sum totality of all parallell universes, and this approach seems to have been mirrorred recently in the Ultimates comicbook."

Nope, both storylines treat Multi-Eternity as the totality of the Marvel Multiverse.

Well, I find most of the scans rather uncertain.

If I remember correctly, both storylines simply referred to the multiverse as being comprised of a massive number of universes that together form Multi-Eternity.

Regardless, I am trying to get DarkLK to interact with us, but he is not being very informative as of yet. He does not seem opposed to an upgrade though.

Hence, if TLT1 can explain why the Doctor Strange scans define a High 1-B multiverse, we could probably use them together with the wave function mention, and possibly the Infinity Abyss and Fantastic Four scans in combination.

Nope.

"And where one Eternity would ensure a boundless universe, a Multi-Eternity would ensure a boundless Multiverse."

Multi-Eternity is the totality of the Multiverse.

Let's see how The Utimates handles it?

"Eternity. All that is known"

"Eternity. The Multiverse. All that is known (...) The personification of all that is."

"I spoke to Eternity, the personification of all that exists. The True Eternity, of whom each universe's Eternity is but one small facet."

The Multiverse was also shown within the storyline proper to be beyond just infinite timelines, as it has things like the Neutral Zone in it. In fact, Infinite Space-Time Continuums were explictly said to not be the full scope of reality .

As such, coupled with the Defenders #3 scans, it is only logical that Multi-Eternity is the embodiment of all existence.

Yes, this means that it was tiny in comparison, but as the evidence from the actual scans show, it was also Infinite-Dimensional.

Okay. Well, I am currently neutral regarding the issue, so I would prefer if TLT1 could confirm the High 1-B interpretation of the transfinite Cantor sets.

I would obviously also prefer an evaluation from DarkLK, but if he does not want to, I cannot force him to reply.

Anyway, if I understand properly, we would upgrade Oblivion to 1-A, and The Living Tribunal, Multi-Eternity, Multi-Infinity, Multi-Chaos, Multi-Order, and Mikaboshi to High 1-B, correct?

Yes. And the existence of a 1-A like Oblivion would render the keys for TOAA irrelevant, though his explanation would have to be rewritten.

But I am unsure over some things. This is why I would have prefered to have made this post after I read all the Tribunal's stories.

Okay. Well, we could handle this gradually.

DarkLK has stated that he does not have enough time to participate in this thread, but does not mind upgrades.

I am extremely uncertain if we can reliably upgrade the OAA to tier 0 however. As the Cthulhu Mythos shows, there can be an unfathomable amount of levels within 1-A.

I would prefer if TLT1 confirms your interpretation first though.

The LT is the sum totality of the multiversal abstracts, and the multiverse itself. Despite the handbook claims, the entity does not have any definitions that places it on a comparative level with Oblivion, who seems to be quite beyond space and time.

I will also ask DontTalk for an evaluation.

I support scaling the Multi-Abstracts / Chaos King to High 1-B, and Oblivion to 1-A. I am also unsure about Living Tribunal. Perhaps "High 1-B, possibly 1-A"?

Well, I would prefer a simple High 1-B rating for the Tribunal, if DontTalk or TLT1 can justify the interpretation.

This board is for staff only.

We have already discussed that issue several times before.

Here is DontTalk's analysis:

I just looked at the long post of matthew, so if anything further was discussed in later parts of this I haven't read it yet.

First I should point out that the writers have clearly no proper understanding of those concepts them self.

"Consider then, the set called whole numbers -- 1, 2, 3, 4, and so on. Is it not Infinite?

Then consider the set called even numbers -- 2, 4, 6, , and so on -- How long is it?

Half of infinity is still infinity. And the same would be true of the set of odd numbers?

Both sets are infinite, and yet the set of whole numbers contains both subsets, and is therefore twice as large as either subset alone. Thus are demonstrated two levels of infinity. There are, of course, an infinite number more."

The above is the example for that, which was also given in this scan.

The amount of even numbers and whole numbers is the same (specifically they are both aleph 0 ($ \aleph_0 $)). So yeah, the writers don't understand the concepts they are using there.

That aside, lets come to what exactly those things would imply if they mean what they are supposed to mean and not whatever the writers of the comics think they do:

In regards to the aleph scale there are infinite levels of infinity, which describe the amount of points that there are in a set.

This starts with $ \aleph_0 $, the infinity equal to the amount of natural numbers.

What is the next higher infinity can not be said for sure. The Continuum Hypothesis states that the next infinity is $ \aleph_1 $, the amount of real numbers there are, but this hypothesis is proven to be an undecidable problem in mathematics. For all we know between this two levels of infinity there lie infinite further levels of infinity. Same goes for all further aleph numbers.

$ \aleph_1 $ is for example the amounts of points there is in 1 cm, as well as the amount of point in a m^2 or in a 4-dimensional hypercube. Essentially everything you usually see and even all higher dimensional objects consists of $ \aleph_1 $ points, no matter how large or small it is.

As such having more than $ \aleph_1 $ of something (for example having $ \aleph_2 $ universes), would constitute to a High 1-B ranking. (providing they don't "overlap", for example the amount of Lebesgue measurable sets is also larger than $ \aleph_1 $, but they are not disjoint)

So if we are just talking about some transfinite number of universes like in this scan, this is 2-A if they talk about $ \aleph_0 $ universes; for at most $ \aleph_1 $ universes High 2-A and for anything greater than that High 1-B.

I should add that this is only for having that many universes, points, bits of space, objects etc. Basically for things which have a size that one can measure, in the sense of measuring with a ruler.

The aleph scale only describes the amount of things that are in a set, not how large the set in terms of size is, hence one has to know what kinds of things are inside the set to get any conclusions about the total size.

Something like transfinite power would for example not make sense, if talking about the aleph scale of infinities. Likewise saying that a level of existence has the property of being "transfinite" doesn't make sense in that use of the word transfinite.

All in all, if we take the statements as they are written (as opposed to speculating what the authors intended) and just consider the talk about transfinite aleph numbers stuff, the panels puts them in the realm of "at least 2-A, at most High 1-B" (lower bound would be High 2-A if multiple levels of transfinite amounts of universes were mentioned), if we are talking about it according to strict definition.

(To explicitely state it: All of this is not considering any of the other statements about infinite dimensions and stuff that was given there)

Matthew Schroeder said:

TheLivingTribunal1 can explain you best dealing with Transfinite Numbers, and the full extent of Aleph-Sets is High 1-B.

Click to expand...

Ok, so here is how transfinites work, the things that we call "orders of infinity" here are actually more like orders of transfinity (if we use the correct terminology). Such that the smallest transfinite numer is aleph naught is a set of all natural numbers (any non mathematician or non physicist would think that this is infinite in their non mathematical way of thinking) , but obviously you can have an infinity at a higher order, like the number of rational numbers between any 2 natural numbers, which is greater than the number of all natural numbers. And then you can get to a higher order following this. Even if you hit the set of irrational numbers and it seems that there is no higher natural progression left, you can simply create mini sets of previously existing infinite sets and keep making the ascending sets infinitely """larger"""" than the previously largest set and this can go on forever. This is how the cardinal number/cantor set order of infinity (transfinity, if we use the mathematical language) works, which culminates in the absolute greatest true infinity. BTW Countable infinity is the smallest transfinite number (size of the set of all natural numbers, which, like I said before, is infinite to a normal person).


So the statement of cardinals would mean that abstracts could get to a sub-1-A tier level, and if oblivion could be proven to be beyond infintie dimensions, then this would mean that the absolute higher marvel abstracts would be High 1-B to 1-A tier

Antvasima said:

In conjunction, the entity was killed by the Beyonders, who very explicitly do not transcend the concept of time. If they were level 1-A, they definitely would.

Click to expand...

This can actually very easily be addressed, regardless of scaling.

Being above an infinite number of higher-dimensions/layers of existence is still High 1-B. Having infinity + 1 dimensions does not make you 1-A. Oblivion can have a chronal dimension above the regular Marvel multiverse, which would mean he would still be High 1-B, but a Higher 1-B than Multi-Eternity for example. The same applies to TLT and the Beyonders, who would similarly be High 1-B.

Oblivion could still transcend the Multi-Abstracts and the Tribunal can still transcend Oblivion while all are within High 1-B. This fits with the statements that both Oblivion and the Beyonders still have a dimension of time. It allows us to unify things with very little inconsistency, whereas assuming a being above an infinite-dimensional being is instantly 1-A causes the Beyonders and Oblivion problem. This is obviously assuming we upgrade all Multi-Abstracts to High 1-B.

I am fine with either Oblivion being 1-A or High 1-B, as long as the upgrades get accepted.