Marvel Comics: Infinite Dimensions, Oblivion & The Living Tribunal

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also, in the Doctor Strange scans they definitely go beyond Aleph-Null.

"Was the first to study what he called "Transfinite" numbers, starting with Aleph -- A n infinite series of infinite numbers, all greater than each other."

The narration explictly mentions Aleph as being the smalles transfinite number (Which it is), while there are infinite more (Which is also true given the Axiom of Replacement)

For 1-A Oblivion, the only issue we have is wheater or not TLT is his superior. As such, I would like to read TLT's appearances. For now, High 1-B works, given that it is supported in the Doctor Strange scans, the Defenders Scans, the Fantastic Four Scans, the Incredible Hercules Scans, the Infinity Abyss Scans and the New Exiles Scan.

 

[DontTalk]

(Since this was a response to my remark I will answer here for once, should that be a problem just delete this comment).

@Matthew: We also have those numbers in our reality, it greatly depends on what this numbers refer to.

To amount of points that make up earth is aleph 1, the amount of combinations this points can have is, if the continuum hypothesis holds, aleph 2. The amount of combinations of this combinations would then be aleph 3 and so on.


So just that those concepts are part of the multiverse isn't impressive.

It only gets impressive once it is stated in which way those concepts actually apply. That far the scan only specifies that the multiverse is made up of some transfinite number of universes.

So that one of the numbers of the aleph series correctly describes the number of universes there are in that multiverse.

"Some transfinite number" includes the possibility of that number being the first one, aleph 0, as it is a transfinite number.


I really think the other scans are more relevant to the discussion.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

They said that the concepts of Transfinite numbers apply to Higher-Dimensions.

was the first to study what he called "Transfinite" numbers, starting with Aleph - An infinite series of infinite numbers, all greater than each other.

Yet, it is of such concepts and more -- That the Multiverse is made. For the Multiverse is literally a transfinite number -- That is, a number greater than infinity -- of universes. These universes are often popularly called "Dimensions."

There are universes whose number of Spatial Dimensions range between 2.7268409 (etc.) and 6.2985923 (etc.). Though natural laws therein may range from Science and Magic, these all share a commonality of Concepts. Hence the are grouped together into a Cluster.

Journeying towards "Lower" Universes with fewer than 2.7268409 (etc.) dimensions -- or toward "Higher" ones with more than 6.2985923 (Etc). -- One enters universes which are truly different. Yet, even there, life exists -- albeit in forms totally inconceivable to mankind. There, The Living Tribunal takes other shapes to administer the other clusters. (...)"

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

That says the concept of Transfinite numbers applies to universes, not higher dimensions.

I would also like to clarify that the Beyonder contemplating the multiverse also likely refers to universes. Him finding it odd that the Marvel multiverse has infinite higher dimensions wouldn't make sense, since where he comes from already has infinite higher dimensions. However, since the Beyonder was the entirety of the Beyond Realm, it was essentially a universe, not a multiverse. He is fascinated by the Marvel multiverse because it is indeed a multiverse (the term multiverse only being used to separate it from the Marvel multiverse as opposed to implying a universe within it), not because it's higher dimensional. The scale of Dorm killing Multi-Eternity is also contradicted by the new definition of what TLT is. New Exiles is also referring to universes, as it uses "beside", not "on top of" or "above".

That doesn't matter though, since the Reed Richards, Cho, and Adam Warlock pages are the best examples of infinite dimensions/infinitely increasing levels of infinity.

 

[DontTalk]

@matthew:

They state that some of those transfinite amount of Universes have higher dimensions.

What that shows is just that there are universes with higher dimensions in the set of those transfinite amount of universes (some of the later scans you posted might suggest that there are some with infinite dimensions in there, that is not a point I am here to debate).

But that there are transfinite of such universes doesn't mean those have more dimensions than otherwise stated.

Aleph-0 n-dimensional universes are together still n-dimensional, no matter which number n is.

Basically the concepts of dimensions and transfinite numbers work mostly seperate from each other (with the restriction that more than aleph-0 n-dimensional structurs can be more than n dimensional), so the scale on this either depends on wether it was ever explicitely stated that there is more than aleph-1 of universes (or similar) or just which dimension the things that exist are otherwise stated to be.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Nope. The Beyond-Realm is a another Multiverse, that was directly stated. And it does make sense for him to discover what he originally thought was a single universe as having infinite dimensions. It doesn't refer to universes.

Dormammu killing Multi-Eternity is not contradicted in the entity's definition. Multi-Eternity is all of existence, and this has been consistent. One statement that TLT is the Multiverse doesn't invalidate everything else.

It doesn't matter if they say "beside" and not "On top of" or "Above", they are visibly refering to infinite dimensions.

And they say that the transfinite universes are called dimensions.

These universes are often popularly called "Dimensions."

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Before one can hope to comprehend the Multiverse, in even the most limited way, one must first grasp the notion that the very concept of "Infinity" is relative. For instance: Numbers are infinite. So are odd numbers. Yet, by definition, there are twice as many numbers as there are odd numbers. One "Infinity" is included within a larger "Infinity." (...) Goerg Cantor, a russian monk at the turn of this century, was the first to study what he called "Transfinite" numbers, starting with Aleph - An infinite series of infinite numbers, all greater than each other. Quite understandably, he died a madman. Yet, it is of such concepts and more -- That the Multiverse is made. For the Multiverse is literally a transfinite number -- That is, a number greater than infinity -- of universes. These universes are often popularly called "Dimensions."

"Further outward, we encounter universes whose number of Spatial Dimensions is "Irrational" -- As witness Pi, that mystic number which stretched onward into infinity. And human visual representation of these universes is necessarily distorted or incomplete. Among these are Tiboro's "Sixth Dimension" -- Tazzas Lonely Domain -- Nighmare's Dimension of Dreams -- And the Dark Dimension, of which more will be said. There are universes whose number of Spatial Dimensions range between 2.7268409 (etc.) and 6.2985923 (etc.). Though natural laws therein may range from Science and Magic, these all share a commonality of Concepts. Hence the are grouped together into a Cluster. Man's cluster is one of the responsabilities of the All-Powerful Being known as The Living Tribunal. Journeying towards "Lower" Universes with fewer than 2.7268409 (etc.) dimensions -- or toward "Higher" ones with more than 6.2985923 (Etc). -- One enters universes which are truly different. Yet, even there, life exists -- albeit in forms totally inconceivable to mankind. There, The Living Tribunal takes other shapes to administer the other clusters. (...)"

Read the underline quotes. It establishes what a transfinite number is, and how there are infinite transfinite numbers out there. It establishes how these transfinite universes are called dimensions, and how these universes are grouped into clusters that either share the same dimensions, physical laws, etc. There is an infinite number of clusters, and given that the Multiverse encompasses the full-extent of Cantor's Transfinite-Set concept, it can't be anything but High 1-B.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Read what I posted above. Multiverse is used to distinguish it from the Marvel multiverse. In the Beyond Realm, the Beyonder was everything. He would not notice something such as there being alternate universes, because everything was just him.

Multi-Eternity being all of existence is inconsistent with what the Tribunal is defined as. That's the problem. Multi-Eternity is repeatedly shown to be one of the most important facets of existence, but he is not all of it.

No, it very much matters. Nowhere in the scan does it imply higher dimensions. Like, at all. They even mention that dimensions are disappearing, which is not at all how actual dimensions work. It is far more likely referring to universes.

That is explaining the use of the term "dimension" to refer to universes, not that transfinite universes are literally dimensions, because that's not what dimensions are.

Why are you arguing for it to be High 1-B? I said that three of the stories linked very explicitly define the multiverse as having infinite higher levels/dimensions, which is High 1-B. That is simply not one of them. The second paragraph even goes on to specifically mention spatial dimensions, further supporting Strange just clarifying the use of "dimension" in casual terms.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Beyonder came from another Multiverse. What fascinated the entity about the Marvel Multiverse was that there was individuality, beings were incomplete, people desired things. And initially he thought it was just one universe, only when he stopped to analyse the structure is when he saw that it was a Multiverse like where he came from.

He decided that it was time to investigate a rather odd thing he had noticed about our universe -- Namely that it is Many-Layered -- Composed of a seemingly endless number of dimensions. Indeed, it is a Multiverse -- Beckoning him to explore.

Infinite layered dimensions. This is explicitly dealing with Higher-Dimensions, which is consistent with how the Beyond-Realm is depicted there.

The Tribunal is the Embodiment of Multiversal Law and Order. Multi-Eternity is all of existence and this has been consistent. You cannot pick and choose this, if all of Multi-Eternity's appearances say that the entity is all of existence, than it is. Simple. It doesn't matter if one storyline said that the Living Tribunal is the Multiverse, you can't pick that over all the storylines that say otherwise because it fits your narrative.

It's fiction, I couldn't care less if it seems illogical to you that dimensions are being destroyed. There is no reason for them to state Imagine -- dimension after dimension, stacked one beside the other, stretching across the breadth of conceptual infinity. and use the term "Conceptual Infinity" if it was just infinite universes.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Doctor Strange Scans does support the Multiverse having infinite numbers. The Multiverse is transfinite, composed of infinite sets of transfinite numbers, the smallest of which is Aleph. Said transfinite universes are called "Dimensions", for they don't share the amount of spatial / temporal axis as ours, nor the same physical laws as ours. There is a cluster for infinite amount of universes that share the same dimensions and physical laws, no matter how absurd those might seem, such as universes with irrational dimensions. There are infinite of those, and those are in a cluster. There are of course, transfinite clusters.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Why would this be odd to him, though? A universe with infinite higher dimensions is not automatically a multiverse. Wouldn't it be the presence of endless universes that alerted him to the fact it was actually a multiverse?

You and I have very different definitions of existence, here. Multiversal law and order is, by definition, part of the Marvel multiverse's existence. Multi-Eternity also would not be all of existence by definition if Infinity is supposed to be the infinite/all of space.

The problem is we don't use the "it's fiction" thing to get away with certain things if they don't actually match up with how they're supposed to be. For example, our stance on black holes. Also, why exactly would it not make sense for them to refer to it like that if it was "just" infinite universes? Because that's not exactly an easy thing to fully comprehend or imagine. Breadth also describes the distance of something from side to side, which further supports them being universes and not actual dimensions. Dimensions would not be lined up next to each other.

I still do not see how the Doctor Strange scan supports infinite higher dimensions. He says "an infinite series of infinite numbers" when describing the nature of transfinite numbers. He then says "the multiverse is a transfinite number of universes", which is not the same as infinite higher layers of reality.

However, as I said, something like describing the multiverse as "spiraling upwards into infinity beyond infinity" or having "infinite levels", which we have, is pretty much the most solid evidence one can have.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Multi-Eternity was described as being all of existence while the Tribunal was Multiversal Law and Order in the same story. Simply put, the later is still above the former. Infinity is still part of Eternity as per Marvel. I posted all the definitions of Multi-Eternity before. We cannot pick and choose this.

If Dimensions are not lined next to each other, why do we accept descriptions of layered dimensions? This is literally just a difference of semantics. One is describing horizontal layering while another is described vertical layering. Why does the vertical layering seems more conclusive and acceptable?

Yes, but they also say that these transfinite universes are called dimensions, and goes to list various clusters of infinite of said universes. As the Multiverse is made of transfinite numbers, there are transfinite clusters.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The most solid evidence in my opinion: The Doctor Strange scans. The Defenders scans. The Incredible Hercules Scans. The Fantastic Four Scans. The Infinity Abyss scans. All of these are explict in describing the multiverse as having infinite dimensions.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

This is not a matter of picking and choosing. It is a matter of the description of Multi-Eternity being not entirely accurate.

Because when we do, it is normally for things describing an increase in the level of dimensions, such as "higher spatial dimensions" meaning something has a higher number/more spatial dimensions. This on the other hand does not imply an increase in spatial dimensions, but an endless series of universes that continue onwards forever.

I can see where that interpretation comes from, but I am not sure if I believe it to be the correct one. For instance, with Strange saying there are a transfinite amount of universes and that it is of the concept of transfinity that the multiverse is made, he could simply be referring to this. It does not necessarily mean there are an infinitely increasing level of higher dimensions.

Like I said, I find the Incredible Hercules, Fantastic Four, and Infinity Abyss scans to be very solid evidence for an infinite dimensional multiverse. Not sure I agree with you on Doctor Strange and the Defenders, but that's not a problem, as they do nothing to contradict the image of the multiverse laid out in the previous three.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Eternity is made of Space and Time, not just Time. Just because Infinity exists does not invalidate all the times Eternity has been described as "The Embodiment of the Universe", or "The Embodiment of All there Is".

Why is the description of Multi-Eternity not accurate if it is what it has been described as every time?

Multi-Eternity is explicitly High 1-B within the Defenders #3 storyline. I don't see why your issue is.

Worlds within worlds! Dimensions folding onto themselves! Entire universes being born... And collapsing into ruin! And yet I sense that all this -- is but the merest fraction of what Eternity is!

And the outside of the Multiversal Eternity's self?

In a place that exists beyond all time and space, that transcends all levels of reality and dream

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

What makes The Living Tribunal more powerful than Eternity even though Eternity is the embodiment of the entirety of the Multiverse, is because as the Embodiment of Law and Order, the Living Tribunal is what establishes the order and hierarchy of the Multiverse. The only reason Eternity is more powerful than Chaos and Order, for instance, is because the Tribunal exists. His existence maintains order and hierarchy in existence, but since the order of the previous Multiverse had ceased to hold meaning, previously weak Abstracts like Chaos and Order could kill him, while Galactus could measure up to them.

Without the Living Tribunal, the embodiment of a single concept can be more powerful than the embodiment of all concepts.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Then Infinity is by definition meaningless and far below Eternity, which is not the case. Unless the writers are treating Eternity and Infinity as one being, due to how they are sometimes portrayed.

I don't see how Multi-Eternity is High 1-B in the defenders storyline. Is it due to the dimensions folding onto themselves thing? Or something else? Because Dorm being outside time and space while being outside Eternity does not mean Eternity has infinite dimensions.

I mean, he probably does, but I'm saying the particular storyline itself doesn't seem to state or suggest that.

As for the Tribunal, I never disagreed with you on that. I am saying that the Tribunal being multiversal law and order means he is the apex of the Marvel multiverse as opposed to beyond it completely.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Eternity and Infinity are too sides of the same thing.

Eternity is High 1-B in the storyline because of the quote.

Worlds within worlds! Dimensions folding onto themselves! Entire universes being born... And collapsing into ruin! And yet I sense that all this -- is but the merest fraction of what Eternity is!

Eternity is made of infinite worlds within worlds, and infinite dimensions that fold onto themselves. This is an explicit description of an infinite-layered reality, with one world being inside another world, inside another world, and with dimensions layered onto themselves infinitely. This is exactly like the descriptions of Higher-Dimensions from stories like The Dark Tower, Demonbane and Lucifer.

I'm not arguing for 1-A Tribunal, just High 1-B.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Eternity may or may not be the Embodiment of Time, but it has been described as the embodiment of the universe numerous times, and Multi-Eternity is always the embodiment of the totality of existence. Infinity has also been described as the embodiment of all there is, the universe, and even time.

Even if Eternity is the embodiment of Time, it still has by necessity Spatial Dimensions. It is a very physical concept / embodiment, while the Tribunal is far more abstract.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I know, but they are traditionally specified as different entities unless they appear together as one. Not even mentioning Infinity seems like an odd thing, as both of them are necessary to comprise existence.

I don't believe that quote specifies infinite anything. It just states there are worlds within worlds and dimensions folding onto themselves. If it specified "infinite", then it would definitely be a High 1-B description.

I agree with you on High 1-B Tribunal. I am simply saying he is part of (well, all of) the multiverse on an abstract conceptual level, as those concepts apply to said multiverse.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

And yet I sense that all this -- is but the merest fraction of what Eternity is!

All that description if just the smallest fraction of what Eternity is.

While the outside of Eternity is 1-A:

In a place that exists beyond all time and space, that transcends all levels of reality and dream.

The Tribunal is part of the Multiverse, but he is superior to the embodiments of the Multiverse as a physical structure.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes, but it does not mean there is an infinitely small amount of what he is. The problem isn't that it's not a good feat. It's that it's not an explicitly High 1-B feat, and cannot be used as such.

The Choushin perform a similar 1-A feat by transcending all versions of time, space, and dimensional scale, and this is done in a verse with "only" 22 dimensions. Eternity would not be required to be High 1-B for this to happen. Again, I'm not saying he isn't infinite dimensional, but there is no direct confirmation in this story as such.

Yes, he is. I am only saying he is still part of it as a whole on a conceptual scale.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think it is only logical to assume that they meant that Eternity is made of infinite universe.

The same story described Eternity as "The complete Embodiment of everyone and everything... On all levels of Creation! ".

Which, as proven here, is made up of Infinite Dimensions: "In a place that exists beyond all time and space, that transcends all levels of reality and dream. "

If Eternity is made up of countless higher dimensions as the smallest fraction of his being, and is the embodiment of everything on all levels of creation, and as proven in the storyline there are infinite such levels, Eternity is High 1-B.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Again, I don't doubt he is composed of infinite universes and higher dimensions, but this one particular story does not substantiate the claim of him being infinite dimensional. Like I said, the Choushin reside in a similar place and the main verse as a whole has 22 dimensions. If we didn't know how many dimensions Eternity embodied except "a lot of them" and this story was our only indicator, he would be rated as 1-B as opposed to High 1-B. However, other stories verify and infinite-dimensional multiverse, which is what can be used to directly prove Eternity as such.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'm not sure. I would like to hear the opinions of other people here as well, particularly Sera and Ventus, as they are quite knowledgeble on this type of stuff.

 

[Sera_EX]

This a LOT of reading and I'm tired. Can someone sum up both arguments here please? Who exactly is infinite-dimensional? Are we talking about the Tribunal or Eternity? I'm lost.

Transfinite numbers or transfinite sets of infinity? Cardinal sets?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Sera

We are trying to upgrade the Marvel Characters who are currently 1-B due to this sca , to High 1-B, based on these scans:

First Group of Scans

Second Group

Third Group

Fourth

Also these too .

 

[Sera_EX]

Oh ok. Now I see. Well, I really don't see how this doesn't warrant High 1-B.

Worlds within worlds, dimensions folding into themselves.

In a place that exists beyond all space and time

A multiverse of infinite levels

Collapsing of wave functio

Untouched by either space or time

Infinity is relative

Mentioning of spatial dimensions

Why doesn't this warrant High 1-B? I'd like the know the other opposing side's argument summarized.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Last I checked the current argument is less about it being or not being, but what scans in questions are valid.

 

[Sera_EX]

Hmmm. I don't have a counter-argument to that. Which scans do any of you believe is not reliable or valid?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I listed all the scans I think are acceptable to use in conjunction with one another.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Azathoth.

The Incredible Hercules, Fantastic Four, and Infinity Abyss scans are probably fine, but no specific number of dimensions were mentioned in the Defenders scan, DontTalk disagrees with the math of the Doctor Strange scans, the entire Exiles run simply focuses on parallel universes, and I am highly uncertain if we can use any explicitly retconned Beyonder appearances from Secret Wars II.

In addition, the Living Tribunal has been established as the sum totality of the abstract entities Eternity, Death, Chaos, and Order, which logically makes the entity a more complete embodiment of the multiverse than Multi-Eternity.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

TLT1 still agrees with the Doctor Strange scans, and the Defenders scans are good to use in conjunction with the other three.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, no offense whatsoever intended towards TLT1, but by my experience DontTalk is very likely the most mathematically knowledgeable person in the entire wiki.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I still think both scans should be showcased, as they are further evidence on existence of numerous higher dimensions, and the Doctor Strange scan is the most in-depth explanation on what the Multiverse is Marvel has ever done.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, I updated my post.

 

[Antvasima]

As for the Defenders scans, the storyline in question was odd to say the least, Dormammu defeated Multi-Eternity, he was in turn damaged by the Hulk, and J.M. DeMatteis inserted his usual reference to a 1-A environment, despite that it did not make any sense for the characters in question. I think that if we use it, we would be spammed with demands for a 1-A Dormammu, Umar, Eternity... and apparently Hulk.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Being inside a 1-A place does not make you 1-A.

My argument for using the scans is that it SHOWS that innumerable higher dimensions exist, and that the outside of the Multiverse is 1-A. It is yet more evidence that can be used.

The 1-A outliers can be ignored. A storyline can both have legitimate feats while also outliers, and a character can do a legit feat while also being an outlier for the other person.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the Defenders issue does not remotely mention infinite dimensions, just that there are higher dimensions, and in addition, that is not how our community works. If we use one aspect of the storyline, we will be continuously overrun with demands of a 1-A Dormammu, and every other cosmic entity, regardless that it makes no sense whatsoever. J.M. DeMatteis simply tends to spam this terminology into his storylines with no respect to the implications in terms of scale or consistency.

 

[Antvasima]

An in-depth explanation that is mathematically incorrect, and does not reliably define what we are trying to prove, would make us look silly. It is better to use more reliable instances.