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Marvel Comics: Infinite Dimensions, Oblivion & The Living Tribunal

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No one is going to ask for 1-A Dormammu. People know what outliers are.

In this case, J.M. DeMatties' terminology is valid in relation to the greater Marvel Multiverse.
 
Yes, but only use the scans that I and Azathoth accepted to do so. At least unless DontTalk changes his mind.
 
Okay. Perhaps I should begin doing the changes, starting with Eternity.

Would this explanation suffice:

Attack Potency: High Hyperverse level (Is the embodiment of the totality of the Multiverse, which has been shown to be Infinite-Dimensional)
 
Though I heard both VenomElite and Alice want to give their inputs, but they are unavailable right now, so is best to wait a bit more.
 
Well, that would probably be mostly fine, but we should likely clarify that Eternity and Infinity are aspects of the same space-time comprising entity, and that the Living Tribunal is a more complete embodiment of the multiverse, by incorporating all multiversal abstract forces within itself.
 
In addition, I think that the new Tribunal should probably be upgraded back, considering he was back at being the strongest Multiversal Concept before being killed in the Ultimates.

And yes, we should clarify that Eternity and Infinity are two halves of the same thing.
 
Well, we are now aware of the extent of the previous Marvel multiverse, but only explicitly saw Reed Richards, Franklin Richards, and the Molecule Man create universes, one by one, so the new one may be much lesser in scale for all that we know.
 
Hence, I am uncertain if we can scale the Adam Warlock Tribunal from the previous iteration. Then again, he was stated to have comparable power when first introduced. Then again a second time, the introduction storyline simply portrayed the Tribunal as a universal entity.
 
No it didn't. They just said that Warlock had the powers of the Tribunal's shard from his universe, so he was the ideal being to become the new Tribunal.
 
The story did not mention anything about shards, as far as I remember. It simply stated that there was a different Tribunal in every parallel universe, which obviously contradicts plenty of other storylines.
 
As Thanos stated within the first scan, the Tribunal from Warlock's parallel timeline was not killed by the Beyonders, whereas within the Time Runs Out storyline, after the Tribunal was killed, small aspect of the entity landed in each universe. Hence, Jonathan Hickman treated the Tribunal as a multiversal entity, whereas Jim Starlin did not.
 
I also think you are fixating too much on semantics and specific word-details, both details don't strike me as contradictory. Warlock has the power of his reality's Tribunal shard / M-Body.

I find it far more likely that Starlin simply assumed the reader would understand based on the information available in New Avengers. He is a man who has written hundreds of Marvel Comics' storylines over the years and wrote the most important Marvel Event ever in The Infinity Gauntlet, so to assume he would be so ignorant on Marvel Cosmology to treat the Living Tribunal as bound to a single-universe is ridiculous.

Your entire argument is based upon the Infinite Finale not specifying something. A lack of information that can be easily joined with another information is not the same as contradictory information.
 
I agree with Matt. This doesn't seem contradictory in the slightest.
 
Ignoring the current discussion (as I haven't read that storyline), I just want to restate that I support the ratings of

Multi-Abstracts = High 1-B (embody a reality with infinite dimensions)

Chaos King = High 1-B (scales to Multi-Eternity)

Oblivion = High 1-B (Above most other Abstracts, infinitely above Chaos King, though still possesses a dimension of his own higher-dimensional time and is part of the Living Tribunal)

Living Tribunal = High 1-B (Sum total of all Abstracts, Embodies the entire Marvel multiverse)

Beyonders = High 1-B (Exist on a level of reality equivalent to that of the Tribunal and were able to kill it, though are still bound by a higher dimension of time)
 
@Azathoth

I am unsure about Oblivion. All about him in-storyline points to 1-A, the only evidence from the contrary is from the handbook. I want to read every Tribunal appearance in comics. If there is no evidence that he is stronger than Oblivion, Oblivion should be 1-A.
 
Also, Universal Tribunal is even more ridiculous considering his current portrayals are also Multiversal.

See here .

"Living Tribunal of the Eight Cosmos "

"[1] Personification of Multiversal Law] "

"Law of the Omniverse "

And once he died, there was no more law nor hierarchy in the Multiverse . No Abstract was more or less powerful or important than any other .

I personally find that to be one of the most impressive feats of the Tribunal proper. He is what determines how powerful or weak the other Abstracts are.
 
Even then, I would be more comfortable with "High 1-B, possibly 1-A", mainly considering the fact that Oblivion's handbook entry isn't something that cotradicts the comics, but more something that specifies things within the comics.

The only thing I can think of that would contradict him having a chronal dimension would be the statement that his realm has "no time or place", but it does not specify all versions of time or the concept of time, and beings well below 1-A have similar descriptions.
 
Oblivion's nature as a void of nothingness is repeated over and over throughout his appearances. It really is far more consistent than one guidebook entry saying that he has a Chronal Dimension.
 
Oblivion is repeatedly stated to transcend shape and form, which makes sense as he opposes Infinity. Being nothingness does not automatically equal 1-A.
 
Oblivion doesn't oppose Infinity. I read all his Comic Appearances, there is no evidence that he does. The one time they did fight it was between M-Bodies, which don't matter.
 
"Somewhere that has no time nor place, beyond the ken of mortals..."

"You are here because you ceased to exist. You have come to The One who embodies non-existence. You have come to Oblivion. Before the multiverse was... I was. A the end of all things... I wait. I am the void... The breath between life and death... Between death and rebirth. Between heaven and hell. My true form is beyond that which you see. I transcend form -- and shape and substance. This body... This realm... And everyone and everything IN it... Are my Creations."

"Return now to non-being... Feel the consciousness draining from you. Fell all that you are stripped away... Consumed. You are beyond loneliness. Beyond pain. Beyond even the memory of what you once were. Oblivion is all that -- and more. For unlike you... I have consciousness of what I am. I feel every ripple in the sea of eternal emptiness... Every ebb in the tide of eternal nihility. Death has his joys... As do Love, Eternity and the countless other cosmic deities who play their parts in the Divine Drama... But Oblivion... Has nothing."


"The embodiment of eternal nothingness... Emptiness given flesh! My eyes see only the abyss into which all things must inevitably fall."

"Again and again, the Universe is born, struggles for life and independence -- Then falls once more into my gaping maw! This world of illusion I have created here is only a reflection of the world beyond! All life is a dream! All Creation is populated by phantoms. Everything springs from Oblivion's lions -- And everything returns to Oblivion's womb!"

"Before Creation was... I was. Where Creation ends... I wait. I am the Void. The breath between life and death. Between death and rebirth. The Nothing -- From which The Everything springs. This form you see, this throne I sit upon -- Are illusions... Created for your benefit, not mine. For if you looked upon me as I truly am you would cease to exist. A state of affairs that would please me to no end."

It's coming. The Chaos and nothingness that was all that there was before the gods comes now to destroy us. The japanese gave a name to it. "Amatsu-Mikaboshi".

"In the beginning there was Everything. And Nothing. Existence was a chaotic state -- where darkness and time were One. The elements were undivided, the laws of physics unfounded. It was an infinite confusion. There was no room to think."

"It is the Nil Star... It was extrapolated by the First Mover that the Nil Star would herald the end of times. Sentient Entropy that seeks absolute chaos -- and end to order. Where you can't tell up from down because there is no up or down. Irrelativity: A foundationless state in which no pattern can be recognized."

I fail to see how a single quote from the Handbooks we all agree are contradictory and unreliable hold more weight than all of this.
 
How does it not matter? It is one of Oblivion's only interactions with other Abstracts, and he and Infinity are treated as opposing forces. They are then stated in the handbook to be opposing forces. Even within said storyline, they were implied to have had prior agreements, suggesting past interactions between the two.

I have already addressed the first quote, and most of the others have nothing to do with being 1-A.

The only other quote having to do with time is in reference to Mikaboshi.

Again, Oblivion having a chronal dimension beyond the normal Marvel multiverse does not contradict his statements about himself. There is no direct statement that says "this could not at all be a possibility". The Beyonders, after all, are beyond the entirety of the Marvel multiverse, yet not the entire concept of time.
 
Well, it is not about Jim Starlin being ignorant, it is about most prominent writers being rather arrogant, and doing their own thing, with little regard for other people's conventions.

In addition, he seems to have limited interest in keeping up with current storylines, as he mostly used traditional versions of the Marvel characters within his story, rather than their currently changed counterparts.

Regardless, within the storyline in question, Adam Warlock was explicitly stated to have gained power equal to the Tribunal by absorbing its counterpart from another universe, whereas the one from Thanos' universe had been killed by the Beyonders. That was before he took up the empty position of the Tribunal itself, and as such constitutes a massive contradiction.
 
It doesn't matter because it was an M-Body. M-Bodies don't scale to the real entities. Oblivion can't be greater than Eternity and also equal to Infinity. You are contradicting yourself.

They have everything to do with being 1-A. If the Multiverse is agreed to be High 1-B, and Oblivion is beyond the multiverse being a formless void of pure nothingness that existed before creation, he is 1-A. Hyperdimensional voids are a common-thing in fiction, and Oblivion qualifies for it.

They don't need to explictly mention time, much like multiple fictions never mention Infinite Dimensions yet get 1-A statements based on conceptual stuff.

It does contradict everything about Oblivion's nature as I listed above. Oblivion's existence beyond the Multiverse is described in a way far more impressive than The Beyonders.
 
Also, the Tribunal did not impose the hierarchy, it was changed due to the Beyonders destroying the old multiverse, and the Molecule Man recreating it with different standards. Thst is what enabled Chaos and Order to kill the Tribunal in the first place, and what allowed Galactus to defeat them.
 
But even if it was changed because of the Beyonders, this shows that the only reason the old Hierarchy existed was because of the Tribunal.
 
I just don't see why we are considering the current Multiverse / Omniverse smaller in scale. They literally talk about iterations of the Omniverse. Such as the 6th Omniverse, the 5th Cosmos, the 7th Multiverse, the Current Omniverse. This all implies that they are structures of similar scale.
 
Opposing does not mean equal. It simply suggests their concepts are opposite, such as everything vs nothing. Also, this has nothing to do with direct scaling. It is about two entities being suggested to have a history in one of their few appearances. I don't think it's possible for only this Infinity and Oblivion M-Body pair to be the only two with any history, or for them to have history yet the greater entities have no knowledge of it.

As I said earlier, Infinity + 1 dimensions is still High 1-B, while still being infinitely above the High 1-B character they are scaled from. For instance, Eternity is the embodiment of the Marvel multiverse's infinite-dimensional structure and all of its time. The Living Tribunal transcends him, yet still has its own higher dimension of time.

The problem here is that said conceptual stuff is not directly contradictory to Oblivion having a dimension of time. Oblivion is nothingness; the total lack of substance. But if he is still contained within the larger conceptual multiverse (the Tribunal), then it does not mean he has to transcend all definitions of time and space entirely. Unless Oblivion is above and outside the Tribunal.
 
Well, Galactus was able to defeat Chaos and Order before the Tribunal was killed, and Chaos and Order were able to kill the Tribunal explicitly due to the fact that the order had already been destroyed with the old multiverse.

My impression was simply that the Molecule Man recreated the conceptual entities with different standards than before.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
He is not contained within the larger Multiverse. He is established as outside it, while Mikaboshi is nothingness within the Multiverse.
Click to expand...
He is explicitly established as outside Eternity, isn't he? To my knowledge, he is never established as beyond the Tribunal, unless there are scans or info about that I am unaware of.
 
That said, I suppose that the LT could have been said to have maintained the old order, given that all abstracts within the multiverse were technically a part of it.

As for Oblivion, I do not personally have a problem with rating it as 1-A, based on its own appearances. The only problem is that, going by an unreliable handbook mention, it may contradict the rating of the Living Tribunal, who seems to be a regular High 1-B.
 
But Multi-Eternity is still High 1-B. That much can't be changed. And that would imply that other entities who are on similar level like the Tribunal, Chaos & Order and Lifebringer Galactus are also on that level.

Besides, my impression from the issues is that the current power hierarchy seems to be more based on willpower than anything else.
 
I am fine with the original Multi-Eternity being High 1-B.

However, I am extremely uncertain if the current Marvel multiverse reaches anywhere near the same extent of power, rather than simply being a collection of universes, given that this is all that we have seen the Molecule Man and the Richards family create.

A High 1-B lifebringer Galactus does seem extremely exaggerated.
 
The current Eternity is still the same entity, so it is illogical to ignore all previous feats.

Has there been any narrative need for either of them to create Omniverses? If that is not the case, then that is not an argument.

It has more feats supporting it than just 1-B, and this is about what is accurate, not what we want.
 
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