Undertale town level downgrades

Okay. This has gone on for too long. Undertales low tiers are generally composed of so many baseless headcannon assumptions. Before going to town level. Ill start with the easiest feat to debunk.

Lesser dog extending his neck is multi city block level
This is entirely based on the statement of "lesser dog has reached the realm of the clouds". Not only is this blatantly flowery and joking language and a hyperbole but we even see lesser dogs head blatantly still visible to the naked eye. On top of that clouds are something never shown to exist within a mountain aside from fake ones and even if they were able to form (despite the fact that they would have to form in a freezing cold enclosed environment where evaporation doesnt take place) there is nothing suggesting they are standard cloud heights.

Lesser dogs head being visible is not a fault in the game. When you pet his head again, only then do you see his head disappear completely and then see the mention that he is extremely far away. This means that the sprite where his head was visible would have needed to be manually programmed with that statement, and then programmed afterwards to switch to offscreen with a new statement. That is not something that can happen by mistake. His head was deliberately made visible when he supposedly reached cloud height.

"But lesser dog showed no signs of stopping. which proves he is moving in that scene but it just wasnt programmed" That statement is made even before lesser dog "enters the realm of clouds" and his head is even more visible and clearly not moving.

Conclusion: Lesser dogs statement is a hyperbole to exaggerate how high lesser dog was. Why do I even need to explain this?

Now that is out of the way

Vulkins lightning is cloud to ground lightning
This is likely spawned from the idea that lightning is fake unless it is cloud to ground, therefore literally anything that comes from some kind of cloud and shoots downwards must be real lightning.

Vulkings cloud is not even a real cloud for starters. It is a tesla sized white cloud themed object (much like how vulkin is a volcano themed monster and not a literal volcano) with a smile on its face. And neither is vulkin an actual real volcano. It shoots lightning bolts from its sides and fires them as their own individual projectiles. this is not how lightning functions at all. Actual cloud to ground lightning does not fly out as individual cartoonish bolts like bullets, they stream out of the cloud.

On top of many of the "lightning bolts" shoot upwards and sideways and dont even hit the ground. Yet some of them stemming from a literal fake cloud and hitting the ground.

So lets go over the many things that contradict this being actual lightning as opposed to fake lightning.

-The cloud itself is not a real cloud nor functions as a lightning cloud -The lightning itself is as cartoonish as you can make it and does not function like normal lightning -Some of the lightning doesnt hit the ground and flies upwards as if you were shooting a projectile into the air -Monsters attacks are explicit magic. Lightning is not a magical object by any means.

Saying vulkins lightning is real requires way to much assumptions and burden of proof. Vulkins lightning is merely an electrical projectile which is shaped and themed like lightning which is also consistent everything else in the surroundings and the other cartoonish monsters and projectiles within undertale. The latter is further justified through ockhams razor as it requires far less speculation and more reasonable logic.

I would also like to bring up the argument that mettaton was able to hit frisk with electricity which was a direct technological attack and not lightning. The counter argument is that frisk was minimally determined and was not in a full fight scenario.

However it should be noted, he was able to tank hits from mettaton who had thirty attack. Frisks determination scales to the opponents attack and not durability (as shown by the fight with jerry where frisk could only chip away at jerrys hp due to his durability being so high). Which is why he doesnt ever reach mettatons defence and tank his attacks.

Undyne can one shot papyrus and is at least a full tier above him
This argument is so wrong. Undynes attack only is unquantifiably above papyrus and her durability is listed the exact same. She has never demonstrated the ap gap to one shot anybody on papyruses level or below and only has a good amount of defence above. Undyne herself even listed papyrus as being a tough opponent with no reason to lie when she goes on to explain why she couldnt let him fight.

The only time a monster has demonstrated to be able to absolutely overpower another is when asgore completely stomped undyne on numerous occasions when she was just a normal monster. when she approached her current level she was able to somewhat damage asgore and knock him over and continued to train. Undyne at the point where she was getting completely stomped has no actual feats and hasnt shown or been mentioned as being strong compared to other monsters.

This should give asgore the ap gap to one shot most average untrained monsters that are encountered (likely those with around 5 to 10 attack/defence) as undyne should at least scale above them mid training. But that is it.

A little inconsistency with the far apart scaling for undertale monsters Jerry who can fight alongside the likes of ice cap. The latter having 4 defence and taking a few hits to kill. The former having 30 defence and taking many hits to kill. If jerry were hundreds of times more durable than ice cap who frisk can do normal damage to then frisk would not be able to even remotely hurt jerry and the fight would never end without sparing him.

Im pretty sure there are many inconsistencies like this arise more than this many times in the game. It just shows how horribly scaled these characters really are. Which leads on to this.

Monsters stats are not properly scaled
Undyne has 20 defence yet scales above others with the same (even sometimes higher) defence in durability Shyren has 0 defence and small town level durability Woshua can fight you alongside arron yet his durability should only make him building level Lesser dog has 2 defence and is hundreds of times more durable than a froggit

And so much more. It seems like the wiki focuses on scaling the attack whilst only sometimes factoring in defence, resulting in an unquantifiable mess. The fact of the matter is, these monsters scaling with this much variety (outside of asgore one shotting standard monsters) is wildly insoncistent and has nothing supporting it in the first place outside a fake lightning feat and a hyperbole.

Conclusion
Undertale does not have any raw feats outside (small)building level The current scaling for them is atrocious The only one-shot ap gap demonstrated is asgore to a regular monster Undertale characters should have their speed downgraded to unknown until further revision (although sans should still be at least subsonic unless he has shown higher)

The official ratings depend on whether undertale low tiers become small building level or building level.

Small building level: I cant make to many assumptions for this since it would depend on how far into the tier they are. But considering that the weaker monsters would be this level, asgore might reach into the building levels unless they are near baseline.

Building level:

Assumed baseline, asgore should at least be 8 to 10 times this since even the weakest monster would scale. Making him large building level. Undyne was able to knock him down and got stronger since then. Whilst undyne shouldnt be on his level, she should at least scale somewhat close to asgore, and somewhat above normal monsters like papyrus at least ap wise.

Those with over 40 attack and defence as a result should fit comfortably in the building level+ ranges unless the lower tiers scale very high above baseline.

It is best to figure out what tier the lowest tiers are before making any changes.

Wanted to do this in the low tier revision, but that would take too long. This is going to be interesting

Building level is also probably inflated considering that vaporizing water and Styrofoam wouldn't get anywhere near that.

That said, I am getting blasted from all sides by Angular Size revisions, so I'll be back.

I agree with this.

There is a however, it was told directly by Undyne that Asgore did not even fight seriously with her, at most he was sidetracking with a half dropped expression

With the rest, for me okay

@AstroGhost Yeah. Casually stomping someone on that level should give you the ap gap to one shot. Someone in rl who is street level would likely be the same with a human level similarly which is what the gap is based on.

@DMUA Fair enough. The oven explosion also looks like small building level. Although i think building level might come from entering the inner section of the core. Although i am pretty sure evaporating a styrofoam cup is unquantifiable. Similar things to that have been small building as well from my knowledge.

Agree with this as well, I might go along and calc any feats I find.

Also, how tall should I assume Frisk to be?

Dont know how tall his height is. I know the current tsunderplane ap calc has a frisk height calc. And i think this one has a calc on frisks height as well. Though im not too sure what his actual height should be.

It was not so "casual" as Undyne took a long time just to knock down Asgore. And he was still glad she was even capable of it.

Regarding the Small Building Level, the MTT stoves reach 9000 ┬░ F (?), And the core made Undyne faint (no matter how armored it was and helped to heat it even more), would it do anything? I do not remember if it has already been quantified resistance for temperatures (or even heat resistance same)

Also im pretty certain a lot of feats for ut currently dont make it past wall level besides the oven and styrofoam feats.

the original dialogue Undyne couldnt land a single blow on asgore. They trained and some time during practice she knocked him down. Asgore was likely holding back during the latter much more than undyne was. And undyne was a kid at the time (likely a strong one). So she should be at least superiority to monster kid and be close to a froggit. During training is hard to say. But it is fairly reasonable to say asgore can one shot someone with 5 to possibly 10 defence.

9000 farenheit alone in think is small building level. Although other factors may be involved in a calc. Also the armour heating affects the royal guards as well. When someone wears clean armour it seems to conduct heat and keep temperatures inside, making things hotter than they already are.

Also has the missile Mad Dummy. Missiles are not usually Small Building and Subsonic?

And also, Naps was faster than a flash of light when closing the window before entering. But I think this has already been discussed once (https://youtu.be/rQ2-arx7qSU 14:04)

Building level is fine. It comes from being able to withstand heat on this level which even Sans can do.

Other than that you make fantastic points.

This title remind me bad memories.

This honestly deserves a highlight, considering how important and popular the verse is.

Nonetheless, I completely agree with this. Town level always did seem extremely inflated to me.

The missles aren't scalable to real life. And the light literally knocked on his door. That is not light speed.


But yeah, me and ricsi both were on about how we disagree with the tier 7 thing too. But when you can't even get through a crt to make sans able to see he enemeis LV, an AP CRT is just ass diffucult.

Has anyone written to Azzy?

@AstroGhost In fiction a lot of the time, bombs and missiles can have varying properties. Dummies missiles probably wouldnt be considered as real ones for the same reason that tsunderplanes bombs are not considered as nukes. It is quite vague how these missiles actually function really (apart from having heat seeking properties).

The light is really nothing more than the energy traveling through underground trying to absorb everyones soul. The light itself which is being emitted. After all, actual light cant go and knock on someones door lol.

@real cal squidward So... Why is the heat building level? Is there a way to calc (or estimate?) the inner temperature as building level?

Because apparently it's hotter than the surface of the sun according to Mettaton or something.

Isn't Mettaton kinda... hyperbolic?

I don't think his word alone should be enough for that.

When was that stated? Are you sure that isnt a hyperbole or anything?

AstroGhost The god tiers? Oh yeah, they are getting downgraded later too. Flowey scaling to chara was debunked. It is only a matter of revising how timelines work and how save files scale. but that is for another time. In fact annoying dog might even have an unknown put next to his 2-B due to vagueness.

Talked with Ever. It's likely just a gag. I mean, wooden structures exist in Hotland for Pete's Sake.

Read this post said:

AstroGhost The god tiers? Oh yeah, they are getting downgraded later too. Flowey scaling to chara was debunked. It is only a matter of revising how timelines work and how save files scale. but that is for another time.
In fact annoying dog might even have an unknown put next to his 2-B due to vagueness.

Click to expand...

Wow. I'll wait for this

@astroghost https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2289811 well this is the original thread if you wanna catch up. I may have to re read it myself when this is done.

Before i pass out I would like to post these notes:

Undynes armoured state allows her to throw toriel out the ruins scaling her close

Undyne unarmoured should be able to knock asgore down with very high difficulty

Papyrus can somewhat fight close to undyne similarly to how her resricted state can scale close to asgore (damn. Linear stats are almost looking consistent 0_0)

Frisk who can kill someone with 4 defence in a few hits like ice cap (i think) takes around nine to kill jerry who is physically above papyrus.

Frisk minimally determined scales somewhere below that.

So, do the very borrom tuers (froggiit and co) go to 20-C?I don't remember any feats theu have to make em above that.

The stronger peeps go to 9-B because armored guards and all.

The top tiers stay at 9-B~9-A

Can we stop with the damn 10-C Undertale bullcrap already? Sheesh.

But still, I agree with 8-C.

I absolutely agree with the OP.

The lesser dog point I agree with completely. Never saw how him reaching the clouds while underground made any sense.

Vulkin's lightning not being real lightning also makes sense, especially since we can compare it to Metatton's electricity and see how the attacks don't resemble each other at all.

Hotland is hotter than Undyne's oven which is 9000 degrees farenheit

So 8-C is fine

Gotta agree with OP.

Hold on, guys. I checked this page, and apparently, withstanding the surface of the sun is only a 9-A feat.

Depending on whether the oven is 9000┬░F or 9000┬░C, it could potentially be 9-B or Low 8-C.

As said above, there is freaking wood structures in hotland.

I really dislike the idea of scaling all of the characters to the gag with Undyne's ove. And when was it stated that Hotland is hoetter, anyways? She was fully armored in a "100 pound armor" back then, which she points out was the reason she fainted. She even says that she can go to visit Alphys's, so it's not like she faints every time. And the Oven's full heat soread over the wholle room, or beuildin, would be pretty damn low... and yet she still complains about the heat.

What even implies tier 8 beyond that one time with heat? Because at this point I feel that is either an outlier or simply resistance to heat. Froggit and co. have zero feats or statements.


And I don't see why you find a butterfly that can't even attack you being 10-C a problem or downplay. The early, weakest UT monsters have really no feats or anything.

I mean, even if we're being as conservative as possible, Frisk has a 9-B feat in surviving the fall from Mt. Ebott to the Underground.

Is that really a 9-B feat tho?

Falling at terminal velocity is 9-B

I'll get onto the flowerys comment soon

Oh boy this is good and I agree whole heartedly here

Terminal velocity? The fall wasn't that long...