Undertale god tier revision

Honestly this downgrade should have happened a long time ago. Photoshop floweys stats are filled with so many misconceptions that need to be covered.

Omega flowey destroyed multiple timelines by destroying frisks save files
Omega flowey destroying timelines is nothing more than destroying frisks access to those timelines. Save files are frisk/the players way of getting to different timelines. They do not physically encompass those timelines nor do the timelines get erased when the save files are destroyed. Saying destroying save files = destroying timelines is like saying that destroying a portal to another universe means destroying the universe itself.

There is plenty of more reason show it to be speculation, as once omega flowey is defeated and has lost control of the human souls, the underground is perfectly in tact and you still get an ending and even reload back to the judgement hall. Flowey would have no reason to suddenly recreate those timelines offscreen right after he has been beaten, nor would it be logically be possible since he is completely powerless with no control of the souls. Meaning that flowey in photoshop form was simply stopping frisk from reaching those timelines. Characters such as asgore who are not 4D are also able to destroy and remove certain gameplay mechanics which only return once they are defeated, just like with flowey. And to add on to that. Chara destroying the game actually results in all timelines being completely erased with frisk and the player being unable to do anything, no way to restore the game or erased save files other than chara performing a true reset. Meanwhile omega flowey has not shown to be able to perform a reset like chara nor put an end to the players game or progress.

So in other words, flowey is just cutting off frisks access to those timelines and not destroying them.

Flowey is superior to chara
The reasoning for this is mainly this statement. There are proplems with this. Chara at this point does not have a form capable of destroying timelines. Chara in the genocide route gets more powerful as the player kills people and starts to gain control of frisk until she is capable of taking control of the games reality as shown here. In the other routes chara was almost powerless with her only ability being narrating and calling to asriel. Chara in genocide however is stated in that scene to be getting stronger under the players influence.

Flowey has never changed his views on him becoming superior to chara throughout the genocide route and comments on chara destroying the world
For starters, chara never showcases timeline destroying power until the very end of the genocide route where flowey is dead. On top of that flowey never even compares their levels of power again. Secondly here He only refers to destroying everything "in this world" and "in these memories". Not the world/game itself. Destroying everything in it is simply reference to killing everybody in the underground and likely going to the surface (using the souls) to kill humans as well.

Assuming floweys statement true
Even if we assume floweys statement to be true, it is still not enough evidence to suggest him to be above chara. This is shown by the fact that immediately after absorbing the souls, before fighting frisk he states that he needs one more to "become a god". Which is a direct reference to asriel who only in that fight was talking about purging timelines, not caring about destroying the world (which implies he wanted to as a flower, but clearly never did or could) and resetting everything. Meaning that his end goal was to become asriel dreemurr and reset/destroy everything. This means that at best, asriel is the one who is superior to chara.

Omega flowey is superior because of his lv 9999 stats
This is likely just flowey tampering with the gameplay mechanics since that is what he does through most of the fight and there is no evidence to suggest those being his true stats. But regardless, lv =/= strength. In undertale a level 15 frisk in genocide does way more damage to enemies than a level 20 frisk in a neutral run. How does this make sense? If we go by charas statements, she states that the players power and determination is what awakened her from death and that the players guidance gave her that mindset and power. As we all know, love stands for level of violence and monsters are weak to humans with the intent to kill (this doesn't make them below average human before anyone suggests im saying that). The reason frisk does more damage when he has higher lv is simply because he has a greater intent to kill. On a genocide route, due to the fact that the players intent is to kill people and show no mercy, that influences chara and makes her desire to kill even greater, and on top of that, starts to reveal more of her power throughout the route. The players determination and power is what allowed chara to become that powerful. On neutral however, chara is not being turned into a completely bloodlusted maniac. And therefore isn't able to take power of determination from the player and achieve her full power nor inflict higher levels of damage on enemies. As for omega flowey, he is a completely bloodlusted maniac and would naturally have a higher level of violence. Meaning that someone having a higher lv does not immediately make them stronger. On top of that, if we went by omega floweys stats and scaled him to other characters then it could also downgrade him since his stats are finite and could lower characters. If anything scaling by a characters lv would be massively inconsistent due to the fact that someone with a higher lv can do more damage than someone with a lower lv. What would actually make more sense is to scale characters by actual attack and defence since someone with a higher attack and defence will always be stronger than someone with a lower attack and defence and relies on power and not attitude. I should also mention that when omega floweys defence drops to zero, a fully determined frisk doesnt one shot him despite having a lower defence and finite hp.

On top of that chara at the end game has no stats or a specific level. Even though chara is controlling end game frisk and frisk is getting some amount of power from chara and the player, this has not shown at all to be her own full power. Note that a full power attack from an end game frisk does this much damage (also note that asgore didnt die right away from a full power attack from a supposed 4D being). Even less if you are lv 20 neutral route. Meanwhile an endgame chara does this much damage. On top of that. Chara in a souless pacifist run is able to appear as a physical entity like in genocide and ruin your game despite frisk still only being level 1. Meaning they do not directly share the same stats, noteably when chara is free from the players control. So there is a clear difference between someone who is lv 20 and a fully powered chara. There is nothing to even suggest that an end of geno frisk is comparable to chara in the first place apart from chara taking control of him (which doesn't make them comparable at all).

In short terms. lv does not equate to power nor can it be used for scaling. Determination is what makes you stronger (desire to kill if you are fighting monsters). Chara does not have lv 20 stats.

Chara has 99 attack and 99 defence because of the real knife
Just because chara has the real knife and locket no matter what, that doesnt mean that is her attack and defence. If anything this would just add on to her attack and defence. If we went by this logic then anybody who could remove both items would reduce her at and def to 0 making her weaker than a froggit. Chara carries it due to it being her belongings. It doesnt indicate her having that statistic at all. Nor would it make either of these items multiverse busting weapons. This is like me saying that future trunks from dbz is only as powerful as his sword, or castlevania characters are as powerful as the weapons they wield.

Asriels status
Asriel in his fight has stated that he could destroy this world (same as what chara did) and was going to perform a true reset. Both chara and asriel should still have immeasurable speeds as chara could exist in a timeless void after the game is destroyed. Asriel should be able to perform this feat as well. However based on this revision, Asriel would not be infinitely superior to chara and would therefore be at least 2-C possibly 2-B.

Conclusion
Photoshop flowey does not destroy entire timelines and only cuts off access to them until defeated Photoshop flowey is not superior to chara

Statistic changes:

Flowey (photoshop): at least 2-C likely 2-B ---> Unknown (unless given further revisions)

Frisk (full determination): At least 2-C likely 2-B ---> unknown

Asriel dreemurr: 2-B ---> At least 2-C likely 2-B

bump

I'll read through this thoroughly when I have the time but for for now here's what I have to say:

• I completely agree with destroying save files not being the same as destroying timelines and in fact would have probably made a CRT about it one day if it wasn't brought up now.

• Flowey not destroying the world is not necessarily indicative of him lacking the power to do so. He was likely delaying his plans to toy around with Frisk, just like how he was delaying taking Frisk's soul and toying around in his fight

• Is it even possible to reach LV 20 in a neutral run?

True. But asriel did say he did not care about destroying the world anymore which possibly indicates that he wanted to as a flower. But then again, it wouldnt really change much.

Level 20 is possible in a neutral run from what i remember. You can actually kill more people on neutral than in genocide since in genocide monsters start to dissapear whilst they keep showing up in neutral. But my point would still stand since after sparing someone in the middle of genocide, you stop doing that much damage. Even after getting to a higher level.

You should probably call Saikou here unless he's busy

I would have also suggested inviting Azzy, but I believe he's pre occupied nowadays.

Ive invited both although i doubt azathoth will show up. either way, thanks

I don't think LV 20 is possible in a neutral run. LV 19 to LV 20 requires 9999 EXP, and I don't think it ever lowers.

I could be remembering wrong, though.

I think you can aquire it by constant reloading. But even then you can still stop a genocide run mid way, gain a higher lv and still do less damage.

You can reach level 20 only if you kill Sans, which you can do only in the Genocide Run.

Ok. A lot of people have glitched their way to that level, but that shouldnt be taken as cannon. But regardless a lower level can still do more damage than a higher level on geno.

Not to mention you doing only 1 damage to Undyne when you fight her in her house, with the reason being specifically stated to be you lacking any kind of killing intent against her.

I agree with this, good to see the real problems of Undertale being tackled for once.

Bump.

I have messaged saikou but he has seemingly been inactive the past few days. I may message aidenbrooks since he is also staff but my last two attempts wouldnt post properly.

Yeah, for some reason my message wont post.

We also need to talk about the Annoying Dog, since I am a bit iffy about his High 2-A rating.

And Omega Flowy and Asriel's justification for Immeasurable speed sounds more like a form of Dimensional Travel to me.

Honestly im fine with High 2-A for him. Considering he views everyone in undertale as mere fiction, as a creator and barked the game into existence with text to speech, there is really no reason for him not to be at that level.

Annoying Dog's High 2-A is horribly argumented in his profile tbh.

Maybe a wording change would be good for annoying dog. Also I do agree with omega floweys speed justification. Although i think asriel should logically be able to survive the entire games reality being destroyed the same way chara did.

Read this post said:

Honestly im fine with High 2-A for him. Considering he views everyone in undertale as mere fiction, as a creator and barked the game into existence with text to speech, there is really no reason for him not to be at that level.

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He never sees anyone as fiction, he would have simply theorically created the game with ease. He's never stated to completely trascend it.

And for speed, I'd say "at least Infinite" for Asriel since he can still move and function after the destruction of all of reality.

I thought moving and functioning after the destruction of reality is immeasurable.

Also he barked the reality into a text to speech device which is connected to his computer. Since he created the reality on his computer, that would heavily imply him to view it as fiction.

No that's infinite speed.

Immeasurable is transcending linear time. Time is just another axis of movement, so you can go anywhere in the past, present, or future instantly.

Moving without a space-time is actually only Infinite speed.

Digital data isn't lower dimensional compared to us.

I thought a timeless void would equate to immeasurable speed. Since you are able to exist and move without linear time. I think even pre crisis superman was given immeasurable speeds for breaking through time. Whilst chara outright erased time and was able to move and asriel was likely going to do the same thing.

Doesnt the display on your computer screen count as two dimensional? In fact usually almost all people who view their own verses as fiction (unless it is externally like earth prime from dc or real world from dbh) are considered higher dimensional

Cal is also a supporter of the verse I think. As is Matthew. Maybe they would be able to help?

Ive messaged both already. They havent responded yet. They might be busy right now.

bump (saik is back and ascended. Hopefully he sees this)

• "There is plenty of more reason show it to be speculation, as once omega flowey is defeated and has lost control of the human souls, the underground is perfectly in tact and you still get an ending and even reload back to the judgement hall. Flowey would have no reason to suddenly recreate those timelines offscreen right after he has been beaten, nor would it be logically be possible since he is completely powerless with no control of the souls."

Some important things to note, here.

We're shown twice in the game that SOULs have the power to recreate the world exactly as it was. Asriel does this after explicitly wiping out the current timeline with Hyper Goner during his battle. The even more obvious example would come from Chara, who does this after you sell them your SOUL to get the world back.

Flowey also wouldn't have been the one to recreate the world, anyway. The SOULs would have done so on their own, as they'd already fully escaped his control.

• "But regardless, lv =/= strength. In undertale a level 15 frisk in genocide does way more damage to enemies than a level 20 frisk in a neutral run. How does this make sense?"

Others have said this already, but this can't happen. You can only hit lvl 20 in a genocide run (there was a glitch with Loox, but this was patched), which requires killing Sans. On top of this, your genocide run character has absolutely colossal killing intent (which technically only affects damage you inflict to monsters, not how "strong" you are), as well as supposedly being the only series of events where Chara truly "awakens" as more than just a vague disembodied spirit.


Saying this, I technically don't have a big issue with Photoshop/Omega/JesusChristWhatIsThat Flowey being "Unknown", simply because he's so vague, but I'm pretty neutral right now and will go with what's decided, as I only really feel the need to disagree with individual points as opposed to the whole idea.

That is a good point about the souls. However asriel could only really do a true reset with 7 and had 7 human souls when wiping out the timeline with the hyper goner. Whilst all flowey could really do is mess with frisks files. As for chara, dont forget that she does already have 2-C to 2-B attack potency on her own and didnt say that she actually needed the soul, but rather that she just wanted it. On top of that, true resets/destroying and recreating everything usually involve those timelines still being lost. So even saying that requires a bit of speculation.

For the lv 20. I mentioned earlier that if you spare someone mid way through genocide and continue in neutral, you will do less damage later in that run than when you were on a geno route. So my point still stands. Maybe i should edit that bit?

Also whilst we are on the topic, what do you think about asriels rating along with his speed? Do you think he still qualifies as immeasurable?

The idea is less about the SOUL itself and more the power it grants. Asriel was fuelled by six human SOULs plus almost every monster SOUL. Chara, even before taking your SOUL, has been feeding on the Determination produced by it the whole game. Both of the characters who showed to recreate the world were pretty clearly "SOUL powered", so recreating a destroyed world isn't exactly something out of the ordinary for them, is my point.

You lose power because you lose the pure, undiluted killing intent you have in the genocide run. Mettaton NEO will even mention this if you kill him but still botch the run as a whole. Killing intent is less about "power" and more about the damage inflicted onto a monster due to their natural weakness to it.

I really don't have an opinion on the god tiers' speeds, any more. Infinite or Immeasurable are both probably fine, as is any variation between those two.

Probably infinite for moving in a lack of time honestly

^That would definitely be the case for Asriel and Frisk. I don't remember if Omega Flowey did that, though, but maybe he would back-scale to Frisk.

I don't think Omega Flowey should be unknown given it's superior to Chara. It's very straightforward.

Ok, i do somewhat agree with the first paragraph.

I agree with the second paragraph as well. Although it kind of goes with what i said and doesnt really go against lv not equating to raw power.

Omega flowey never moved in a lack of time. Although considering that even chara is capable of performing omnipresent/immeasurable speeds, It wouldnt be out of question for asriel to have immeasurable as well. I think matthew or maybe saik would be a great person for the speed thing. Also frisk having that speed is kind of questionable as well considering that asriel is likely the one allowing him to "move". Plus it was said that frisk couldnt actually move his body.

Matthew Schroeder said:

I don't think Omega Flowey should be unknown given it's superior to Chara. It's very straightforward.

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He isnt. There is barely anything to suggest it apart from the vague statement

Not even a statement, I'm pretty sure it's a vauge implication of Flowey being more worried about being taken out before he gets the souls then him being able to actually stop Chara

Chara only gets her 2-C feat after Flowey is dead. How is that straightforward?

I've brought the flowey thing up twice already myself, so I obviously agree with it. He has no way to know how strong chara is, he directly refers to frisk, or prehaps the player, as chara (believing that you simply stole a soul) and chara eventually obtains the soul of a frisk that can still do pacifist (Who's DT can stop asriel from resetting)

I agree mostly with flowey being simply unknown.

Because Omega Flowey had six souls.

Matthew Schroeder said:

Because Omega Flowey had six souls.

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What does that change? Chara doesn't scale to human souls and frisk's soul is immensly stronger at it's peak.

How does six souls equate to being more powerful than chara?