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Naruto God Tiers Downgrade (Continued)

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TataHakai

TataHakai

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The original post was made by Imade, it's here https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2782042

However it reached 500 posts so this is to continue it, he made his arguments in the OP and comments and i and many others also responded with counter arguments in the comments

I'm not going to put a TL;DR because if you haven't already, you should read through the thread and both sides of the argument, not look for a shortened version from me or Imade.

Current votes stand

32 Disagree with the downgrade (EmperorRorepme, KLOL506, Me, Dzhindzholia, Rocker1189, 1997KD, AstralKing7, Mindovin. Js250476, BMWFanboy, YungManzi, I am myself, Omimi, GetRektNuub, KOMIE, Wrath of Itachi, Witch of truth, M3X, Xerkser, Adam, BlackeJean, Matthew, Dark649, Lightbuster, EvilMinded, AshenCrow, RM97, AppleLord, Animeking500, DemonGodMitch, Birgi and SinsOfMan)

to

22 Agree with the downgrade (Imade himself, Strongclick, Regis, Demise,Podonklos, Sir Silent, Damage, Sigurd, ZERO772, Rin, The c2, 7th Ki'oon, AnonBlank, GunSlaveUnit, Xalatath, Zensum, GoddessofWinter, Sera EX, Shadowwarrior, Heisuke, Tony and Kep)

and

5 Neutral (The Causality, Zzsax, Sekusu, DarkDragon and Burning)

Continue down below. If you are going to vote then please read both Imade's points and my counters before deciding which you believe is correct.

There have been concerns about the method of deciding via voting which i guess also needs to be adressed.
 
I'm not sure what method there is to decide the right or wrong one besides votes BUT i can see the flaws with that method, the only problem is without it; it would just be Me and Imade going back and forth repeating our points.

Like you pretty much can just go ask random people to vote for your side on any form of social media which is a big flaw when it comes to the voting procedures.
 
sasuke and naruto scale from Hagaromo

they also scale to kaguya and momo who >> Hagaromo
 
TataHakai said:
I'm not sure what method there is to decide the right or wrong one besides votes BUT i can see the flaws with that method, the only problem is without it; it would just be Me and Imade going back and forth repeating our points.
Like you pretty much can just go ask random people to vote for your side on any form of social media which is a big flaw when it comes to the voting procedures.
Click to expand...
Which is why threads are evaluated by staff members, that is why the profiles were revised earlier because literally every staff member agreed or was neutral including Shadow, Kep, and Burning. So it wasn't exactly a bunch of random people's opinion.
 
Yes and people changed their minds after i gave my counter argument, even people who originally agreed with Imade, which again is why i reset the votes so they can either confirm they agree with Imade or agree with me and my newly proposed counter argument.

Though staff members only sounds great too it also has its flaws, in that Staff members shouldn't have their opinions seen as higher purely because they are staff members, our normal members can make more valid points than us and we can't refuse it purely because only staff can decide what's right or wrong

All methods have huge flaws in them really.
 
Alright so having spent the past hour reading through what was mostly ad nauseum (whether it be arguments or "everyone stop posting"), I am gonna agree with IMade's reasoning. Tata made a good counters but I find IMade's more convincing.

One argument that stood out to me (and not for a good reason) was that because Naruto and Sasuke kept their SPSM/Rinnegan even after the seals went, they clearly retained Hags power up. I find that to be terrible reasoning as while I believe IMade is wrong when he says they activated those naturally (DB clearly says the Sage caused them to activate), retaining those forms is clearly due to Naruto and Sasuke having already fulfilled the requirements for them. I believe Kep even brought this up but the belief that the forms = still having Hag's power persisted.

Another one is that the majority of Hag's chakra didn't go to the seals. I mean what? Just because all didn't go to the seals (since this power is responsible for jumpstarting the awakening of their new power ups), Kaguya's Byakugan seeing an enormous concentration of chakra in their dominant hands with the seals should make it evident enough that the vast majority was reserved for the CT.
 
Technically Naruto didn't fulfill the requirements for SOSP mode the way everyone else did.
 
Disagree with downgrade frfr.

Edit: I would have more to say, but honestly I don't have time to dig a search as much as I would need to in order to present my argument.

That's all.
 
@Anonymous

Kaguya's Byakugan seeing an enormous concentration of chakra in their dominant hands with the seals should make it evident enough that the vast majority was reserved for the CT.

How do you know this when we don't see/or read any statement about their chakra reserves, only seeing their chakra pathway system. I mean can you prove something like this: Naruto's chakra reserve is 10 while the chakra in his hand is 1000.
 
To add to Mindovin's point, that conclusion is pretty flawed considering that, again, Naruto and Sasuke weren't instantly curbed by Madara after Hagoromo have them his chakra. My comment from the last thread:


"To add onto the Naruto and Sasuke being strengthened bit, theres also the fact that Madara didnt instantly stomp them after Hagoromo split his power between them, despite Madaras progession of power.

Multiple times, I explained above on how Madara needs to be downscaled from Hagoromos level of 5-B. The fact that Hagoromo, the 5-B himself, flat out clarifies to Naruto and Sasuke that Madara is "approaching his power" means Madara at that point was strong enough to come up on Hagoromos radar, showing he is in the same realm of power as Hagoromo already. So thats 5-B right there.

Naruto and Sasuke combined would have been easily curbstomped by Madara if they didnt get strengthened by Hagoromos split chakra between the 2. But thats obviously not what happened. They both give significant trouble to Madara, showing they are on his level too.

Unless we're going to sit here and seriously think Hagoromo is too much of an idiot to only give them seals and not levels of power to fight someone thats relative to his own, its obvious their power wasnt just focused into the seals. This and for the reasons others brought up too."

Also, to add a bit more to the table, this "power mostly concentrated into the seals" argument is also blatantly ignoring tier difference. Even if most of the power went to the seals (which many of us still vehemently disagree with), that still doesnt necessarily mean Naruto and Sasuke arent 5-B. The differnence between tiers on this scale is ridiculous and even if some power went into these seals, granted, there is absolutely no evidence specifying a vast majority of it was. Again, Hagoromo wouldnt and isnt stupid enough to give these 2 only an ability to fight someone whos relative to him and could destroy them in seconds without some overall strength increase.
 
So would the votes get reset again if Imade comes and post his rebuttal,because people who are presently voting for Tata now wouldn't have seen future's Imade rebuttal to present Tata's comments,and then future Tata is going to post a rebuttal to future's Imade's rebuttal resulting in another reset because future people might change their votes again...Oh My God!!!ƒÿ▒*ques joeseph joestar* there is going to be a freaking time paradox.


Anyway i think both opposing sides make a good case..

I get the fact that hagoromo gave them chakra,that much is obvious.but did he just flood them with 50 percent of his chakra each leaving him with no chakra or did he just lend them his chakra in the form of the chibaku tensei seal which triggered an awakening(for example Naruto and the Ninja alliance with kyubi chakra).

The former seems likely but there are some holes which Imade pointed out

The chakra may have just been to trigger their awakening ,Naruto awakens SIX PATH SAGE MODE,sasuke awakens RINNEGAN.and both of them didnt do this out of Nowhere,They where only able to do this because they just recently met the requirement ,Naruto became a ten tails jinchurriki (sort of)Like So6P and Sasuke became a senju-uchiha DNA petri dish like the So6p..which is why they where able to summon Hagoromo's chakra who gave them the seals

Those awakening alone should give them an astronomical boost to their stat...same boost naruto received from awakening from sage mode and sasuke from MS or Gai from eight gates.

Then there is this Really really bordersome PART ..that Hagoromo gave all his powers to Ashura previously,if he supposedly gave literally all his powers/chakra to Ashura,the same way he literally gave them to Naruto and sasuke then how the hell was he able to do that a second time,you can't give all your chakra twice literally...See paradox.

I will listen to both sides some more before i give my vote,but for now ...I AM NEUTRAL.

For the momoshiki and kinshiki part ...All i know is Delta greater than Naruto who is greater than Momoshiki who is greater than Kaguya(supposedly).Delta true God tier of the verse.Lol and I will wait for shadow
 
AnonymousBlank said:
They just have the normal chakra pathway illustration while their dominant hands are actually glowing brightly in comparison.
Click to expand...
So, Lee explains the chakra pathway system and says there are energy lines that carrying chakra through the body and says it serve the same function like the circulatory system.

And Kakashi explains how if someone hit tenketsu can control the flow of chakra.

I'm asking about their reserves, not the chakra pathway system which is not even complete in that scan.

These three scans don't show complete system but at least it more complete than your scan.

@Everyone who can calc

I'm curious, is it possible to calc the difference in brightness between Naruto and Sasuke's hand and their chakra pathway system?
 
I'm sorry, but I'm not really seeing anything brought up by TataHakai that isn't already answered by Imade's OP or subsequent posts amd is essentially pointless. Sticking with Imade for now.
 
@Zzsax

I get the fact that hagoromo gave them chakra,that much is obvious.but did he just flood them with 50 percent of his chakra each leaving him with no chakra or did he just lend them his chakra in the form of the chibaku tensei seal which triggered an awakening(for example Naruto and the Ninja alliance with kyubi chakra)

Hagoromo specifically noted that he gave both of them his powers,last time he gave powers only to Asura,and now he didved it between them.Not only seals for CT but his power.It is also noted in databook that Sasuke recieved his jutsus and Rinnegan from Hagoromo,just like Naruto.

The chakra may have just been to trigger their awakening ,Naruto awakens SIX PATH SAGE MODE,sasuke awakens RINNEGAN.and both of them didnt do this out of Nowhere,They where only able to do this because they just recently met the requirement ,Naruto became a ten tails jinchurriki (sort of)Like So6P and Sasuke became a senju-uchiha DNA petri dish like the So6p..which is why they where able to summon Hagoromo's chakra who gave them the seals

The chakra may have triggered their awakenings,but they got boosted enough to fight Madara on the equal ground who in turn was comparable to Hagoromo.

Then there is this Really really bordersome PART ..that Hagoromo gave all his powers to Ashura previously,if he supposedly gave literally all his powers/chakra to Ashura,the same way he literally gave them to Naruto and sasuke then how the hell was he able to do that a second time,you can't give all your chakra twice literally...See paradox.

I think no one can explain that part.I don't think it's right to compare him to average characters of the verse,Hagoromo can travel from heaven to earth and even use his techniques as a Ghost.Maybe he regained his strength when he died (lol),that sounds really odd.

For the momoshiki and kinshiki part ...All i know is Delta greater than Naruto who is greater than Momoshiki who is greater than Kaguya(supposedly).Delta true God tier of the verse.Lol and I will wait for shadow

More like this:

Fused Momoshiki>Momoshiki (Physically he is on base Naruto's level,but his techniques are stronger)> Kaguya>Naruto/Sasuke>Delta.

I didn't include Hagoromo,Hamura and Madara.
 
@Xerkser

People vehemently disagreeing means nothing unless they can back up their diagreement. A 5' adult can vehemently disagree that they are short but that doesn't make them correct. Look at the scan I posted again. Everthing that lacks chakra (their surroundings) is seen as black by the Byakugan. Everything with chakra is seen as white. Their dominant hands (the ones with the seals) are shining with/radiating ridiculous amounts of chakra. To say the seals don't contain the vast majority of the chakra is just willful ignorance.

@Mind

What do "more complete" chakra pathway diagrams have to do with anything? The only purpose they serve is to show that this is Kaguya's sight while using her Byakugan. The pathways are irrelevant when lacking chakra is black, things with chakra are glowing white and the hands are glowing while the rest of their bodies are not.
 
RegisNex1232 said:
I'm sorry, but I'm not really seeing anything brought up by TataHakai that isn't already answered by Imade's OP or subsequent posts amd is essentially pointless. Sticking with Imade for now.
Click to expand...
Except for a huge and very detailed debunk that Imade hasnt rebutted at all. Not in his OP or most recent replies.

That, and his OP is full of multiple points that are also wrong. That myself and others actively pointed out in the replies of the previous thread.
 
The hands are glowing not because overflowing chakra,its't just the way to show us,readers,her point of view,to show us that she noticed the seals.They can't just draw ex ray versions of Naruto and Sasuke,that won't highlight the seal.

Of course it is never stated,that is just my thoughts on this.
 
>People vehemently disagreeing means nothing unless they can back up their diagreement.

Except, we have...backed up our disagreement? Me included? Or did you not see those parts at all?

>Everything with chakra is seen as white. Their dominant hands (the ones with the seals) are shining with/radiating ridiculous amounts of chakra.

And? The huge problem with this is that you have no evidence that "shining brightly" has anything to do with those seals containing the majority of the chakra. Its pure speculation at its finest and doesnt go any further than this without head canon. What I italicized is your burden of proof.

We're given literally no statement on this "shining" bit indicating thats where the chakra is strongest. How do we know this isnt just Kaguya noticing the seals from her POV and letting us readers know she noticed them like Dzhindzholia pointed out? And even if thats where most of the chakra is contained, how are we so sure the chakra isnt just flowing into their chakra network to give them the power overall too? It would have to so that Naruto and Sasuke would be capable of fighting people relative to/superior to Hagoromo without getting blatantly one shotted. And like I said before, Hagoromo wouldnt be stupid enough anyway to only pass down an ability to people who have much inferior stats to the point where it's effectively worthless and doesnt help them one bit.

No evidence points to "their hands are glowing, so that must be where all the strength is contained!" whatsoever. Not even a statement of this.
 
You can't ignore the entire context of a scenario and many statements based off a single panel where shining hands could mean different things depending on interpretation

> Are we told that their hands are where all the chakra is?

No

> Are we told that Hagoromo gave them both half his power?

Yes

We go based off actual given statements not variables dependent on subjective interpretation.
 
IMade has told me he is working on a reply and I, by the way, will also reply myself because I agree that 5-B needs to go.
 
Im curious to see what Kep has and whatever Imade's reply is, i'll leave that to Tata (unless there's no response from him.)
 
I still believe i'm correct in this case but i will wait for Imade's replies, if it's the exact same argument he's made before it won't be difficult to debunk.

As for Kep i'm not sure if he input much beyond his agreement in the original post, i skimmed over most people's arguments besides Imade's.
 
He never stated he gave them chakra for the chibaku tensei, he did state however that he gave them the sun and moon seal for the CT seal though.
 
we actually know that Hagoromo did not give Naruto and sasuke half his power as he gave indra and ashura his powers aswell.
 
Indra and Ashura reincarnated into Sasuke and Naruto, so they would have his power from Indra and Ashura too.
 
AnonymousBlank said:
Naruto with his chakra sealed is grey, when the Kyuubi chakra floods his system and unlocks his tenketsu, the chakra clearly glows to a Byakugan's sight.
Click to expand...
This literally doesnt prove a thing.

This is simply showing that Kurama's chakra is flowing into Narutos upon drawing on it. Kurama's chakra and normal chakra are 2 different colors also, so its absolutely not going to look the same when Naruto calls on it.
 
now seals contains chakra too

where this had-canon came from

i think some of u forgot how chakra is created
 
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