- 4,309
- 2,911
Title is a lie, partially, because this would only effect Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto (Ashura and Adult included), Rinnegan Sasuke (Susano'o and Adult included), Momoshiki (Fused included), Kinshiki, Madara (Juubi Jinchuriki with Dual Rinnegan) and Delta.
Hagoromo, Hamura, Kaguya and Toneri would remain unaffected. If the downgrade is to be accepted then only the characters mentioned above in the first paragraph are to be downgraded to Toneri's rating of Low 5-B.
Onto it then:
Explanation of the Current Ratings
Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto (Part II):
Planet level (Received half of Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki's power alongside Sasuke. Momentarily matched Kaguya's Gentle Fist with his chakra arms and sliced her arm off with a chakra claw. His Rasenshuriken was able to completely obliterate Madara's Chibaku Tensei, creating immense blasts)
Ashura Form:
Planet level (Likely far stronger than before. His Ultra Big Ball Rasenshuriken matched Indra Sasuke's Susano'o Arrow)
Adult:
Planet level (Much stronger than his previous state.Fought and overpowered Momoshiki Ōtsutsuki, despite the latter being far superior toHagoromo Ōtsutsuki, who was capable of doing this. )
Sasuke (Teenager):
Planet level (Comparable to Naruto, and created a moon alongside him)
Susano'o:
Planet level (Considerably stronger than before, after absorbing the chakra of all nine Tailed Beasts)
Adult:
Planet level (Should be equal to Naruto)
Momoshiki:
Planet level (Broke through Six Paths Kurama Mode Naruto's shield, knocking him unconscious in the process)
Fusion:
Planet level (Stronger than before, after absorbing Kinshiki Ōtsutsuki. Broke Sasuke's Susanoo, knocking him unconscious in the process. His Lava Golem could overpower Naruto's Kurama Avatar)
Kinshiki:
At least Small Planet level, possibly Planet level (Capable of splitting a planet with his bare hands. Fought with Sasuke Uchiha, who was wary of fighting the combined forces of him and Momoshiki)
Madara:
Planet level (Stronger than the likes of Toneri Ōtsutsuki, as he momentarily faced off against Naruto with Six Paths chakra. His Limbo could fight on par with Naruto's shadow clones. At least comparable to Sasuke and Naruto. Also spread the God Tree's roots as a side effect of his Infinite Tsukuyomi)
Delta:
Planet level (Physically fought with Six Paths Sage Mode Adult Naruto, who also considered her beam of light to be too dangerous to take a direct hit from)
Summary:
Most of justifications for the ratings of these characters are all scaling from Naruto or Sasuke while Sasuke scales from Naruto or their shared feat.
Why These Ratings Are Incorrect
Despite a common denominator (scaling to Naruto and Sasuke), I will still go over each individual character as to explain why their rating is incorrect.
Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto (Part II):
Naruto's rating is derived from the results of Hagoromo and his brother, Hamura, making a moon. The results of said calc yielded 400zt, split between Hagoromo and Hamura, thus them being 200zt each. Naruto and Sasuke were given power and Chakra from Hagoromo, thus giving them Hagoromo's 200zt split between them, thus a 100zt for Naruto and Sasuke.
Why this is wrong is because it assumes that Naruto and Sasuke performed the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei with their own Chakra which is false.
In chapter 671, Hagoromo bequeathed unto Naruto and Sasuke Six Paths power in their dominant hands. Per the visuals of the buddhist-like background, we see that Naruto receives a sun symbol in his right arm while Sasuke receives a moon symbol in his left hand. What these are further revealed to us through Kaguya and her Byakugan.
In chapter 679, the first time Kaguya sees Naruto and Sasuke (after they received power from Hagoromo) she notices that their dominant hands are engrossed with a large amount of Chakra and states that Hagoromo gave them a specific Jutsu. Reminder, the Byakugan (which Kaguya has) allows a user to see the Chakra Pathways in a target, it allows them to see the Chakra of their target.
In chapter 680, Sasuke reveals that the power given to them by Hagoromo was the Six Paths Power of Light for Naruto and the Six Paths Power of Shadow for Sasuke. The seals are the symbols of the sun and the moon as shown when Hagoromo gave them power and the locations are their dominant hand where Hagoromo passed this power onto them.
In chapter 681, Zetsu reveals that the power given to Naruto and Sasuke by Hagoromo was a powerful seal specifically meant to seal Kaguya. He explicitly states that they received the power to do so and that it is allocated for this specific seal to be meant on Kaguya as a powerful version of a Chibaku Tensei.
In chapter 686, we get direct confirmation from Hagoromo himself that at the moment he no longer has enough Chakra to perform large scale Jutsu due to having just given it away (to Naruto and Sasuke for the seals he has implaneted in their hands). This is further supported in chapter 690 when Hagoromo reveals he needed help and Chakra to bring back Naruto and his friends from fighting Kaguya in another dimension.
What We Know So Far:
In chapter 690, Naruto and Sasuke finally seal Kaguya using the seals given to them by Hagoromo. Per the visuals, the buddhist symbolism returns as well as the sun and moon symbols exactly the same as when Hagoromo first gave the seals to Naruto and Sasuke. Furthering reinforcing this being Hagoromo's power, not Naruto and Sasuke's.
Also in chapter 690, as soon as Naruto and Sasuke use the seals on Kaguya, the seals disappear from their hands and immediately return back to Hagoromo. The seals given to Naruto and Sasuke by Hagoromo meant for the Chibaku Tensei returned back to Hagoromo after the Chakra for the seal was used on Kaguya.
In Conclusion: Naruto and Sasuke did not provide any Chakra to perform the Chibaku Tensei, the Chakra and the Seal were are provided by Hagoromo himself. So the results:
Ashura Form:
Naruto's Ashura is 5-B from matching Sasuke's Indra's Arrow. I will disprove Sasuke's rating in his section.
Adult:
Naruto's adult iteration is 5-B for being stronger than his teenage iteration. As I have proven, Naruto's teenage iteration isn't 5-B, thus his adult iteration isn't either. He would be Low 5-B from his younger self.
Sasuke (Teenager):
Sasuke isn't 5-B for the same reasons Naruto isn't 5-B. They both received Chakra that was allocated for the seal on Kaguya. They weren't given 100zt amount of Chakra to use as they please, the power given to them was in the seal meant for Kaguya. He would be Low 5-B like Naruto.
Susano'o:
Sasuke's Susano'o is 5-B for being stronger than before; however, Sasuke is no longer provably 5-B, thus his Susano'o would also fall down in rating, taking Naruto's Ashura Form along with it.
Sasuke's adult iteration is 5-B for being equal to Naruto's adult iteration; however, Naruto's adult iteration isn't 5-B, thus neither is Sasuke's. He would be Low 5-B from Six Paths Naruto.
Momoshiki is 5-B for breaking through Adult Naruto's Kurama manifestation and knocking out Naruto. Now, the blatant issue is that Adult Naruto is no longer 5-B and would be Low 5-B; however, the larger issue is that this wasn't a regular Momoshiki: Momoshiki had explicitly amped himself pretty massively using Chakra Pills that are meant for large enhancements.
So What Stats Does an Unamped Momoshiki Have?
We must look over all his feats then:
He has feats of limitations to Unknow, High 6-C, 7-C and 7-A.
Personally I think At least 7-A, Possibly High 6-C and Low 5-B with Chakra Pills is fine. He's definitely not Low 5-B in base as he never interacts with a Low 5-B character while unamped and his unamped feats are all against Tier 6 to Tier 7 characters.
Fusion:
Fusion Momoshiki actually displays some Low 5-B feats, but not in all stats.
So Fusion Momoshiki would only appear to be solidly Low 5-B in physical durability. His striking strength is not Low 5-B when the Low 5-B Six Paths Naruto physically overpowers him easily and Fusion Momoshiki doesn't even kill 7-A characters with his strikes and 7-A characters can stop his physical attacks.
Durability: Low 5-B (Takes a hit from Six Paths Adult Naruto).
AP: 7-A (KO'd the Kage physically), Unknow with Lava Golem (Overpowers Six Paths Kurama), Low 5-B with Chakra Pills.
Kinshiki:
Kinshiki's feats are almost all pathetically below Low 5-B:
Kinshiki's profile should be At least 7-A, Possibly High 6-C for durability and Unknown, At least 7-A, Possibly High 6-C for AP. I say Unknown for AP since Adult Base Sasuke has no key/rating. His Adult profile needs more keys as I explained above.
Madara:
>Stronger than the likes of Toneri Ōtsutsuki
Toner is Low 5-B.
>he momentarily faced off against Naruto with Six Paths chakra.
Naruto would be Low 5-B with Six Paths Chakra at best.
>His Limbo could fight on par with Naruto's shadow clones.
They aren't 5-B, they would at best be Low 5-B.
>At least comparable to Sasuke and Naruto.
They aren't 5-B, they're Low 5-B.
>Also spread the God Tree's roots as a side effect of his Infinite Tsukuyomi.
That's not 5-B nor Low 5-B.
Madara should be all around Low 5-B from scaling to the Low 5-B Six Paths Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke.
Delta:
Delta's rating is derived from Six Paths Adult Naruto, that Naruto is no longer 5-B and and would be Low 5-B, thus putting Delta there as well.
Summary
All mentioned characters have their 5-B rating moved down to Low 5-B as they're all mainly scaling from Naruto and Sasuke who would no longer be 5-B and would move down to Low 5-B.
Rebuttals
I already know the obvious rebuttals, thus I will address them preemptively:
Momoshiki Isn't Stronger than Kaguya:
Perhaps the largest issue about this would be how many different iterations of this statement there are.
There are statements from Boruto Novel Volume 3, the Boruto anime and the main one from the Naruto Gaiden.
I'm not sure on the canon of the Boruto Novels as they aren't written by Kishimoto nor can I find out information if he helped with the writing or even considers it canon. It's dubious. Shueisha doesn't help as they aren't the creators of Naruto and they're "official timeline" of Naruto, that includes the Boruto novel, also includes non-canon material like the Boruto movie.
The Boruto anime's canon is up for debate as it's either an adaption of the manga (the manga states the anime is an adaption) or potentially secondary canon. Either way, we don't use secondary canon if it contradicts the main-canon (which it does), so I will be using the statement of "Momoshiki and Kaguya" that is directly written and drawn by Kishimoto; from the Naruto Gaiden manga.
From chapter 5 of the Naruto Gaiden, according to Sasuke, Kaguya was preparing an army of White Zetsu due to unknown reasons. Sasuke believes that Kaguya potentially feared something in the future; however, that was explicitly only conjecture.
I will now make points that disprove Momoshiki > Kaguya:
Kinshiki Doesn't Have a Planet Splitting Statement:
1) The statement is from a guidebook about the Boruto Movie which is not canon. It's a non-canon guidebook.
2) The statement wasn't a data statement, it was a hype statement. Hype statements are the same thing that said Temari has universal destructive power, they aren't actually data.
3) We don't use statements if they are not consistent or are contradicted. This statement is not consistent since it was said once in a non-canon guidebook and never again. This statement is completely contradicted due to the overwhelming amount of 7-A feats.
Momoshiki and Kinshiki Being This Weak is Not Inconsistent/PIS/CIS/WIS/Outliers for Kage:
These are straight up consistent anti-feats and the Low 5-B feats are straight up outliers.
-Outlier
Here is the Wiki definition of outlier:
An Outlier is an event or incident that is considered to be completely and irreconcilably inconsistent with a character, entity, group, or series' normal displayed level of power.
If you notice, outliers are singular events or incidents, the wording is not plural. An outlier is an object from a set that is not similar to the set. These feats of were actually consistent for the Kage and consistent for Momoshiki and Kinshiki. Outliers can be a super high-end feat or an extremely low-end feat that is not consistent with the majority of a character's feat. Base Momoshiki has no Low 5-B feat when unamped and Kinshiki only has one possible Low 5-B feat for his durability. It's not possible for them to scale with such poor consistent showings.
-Inconsistency
Here is the wiki definition of inconsistency:
In fiction, an inconsistency is when a character has an occurrence usually regarding power that differs from the norm. An inconsistency can work both ways, being either a low showing or a high showing.
Okay, as I explained above, this is not an inconsistency for the Kage, these are literally their first feats as of Boruto era. By definition they are not inconsistent. The feats make up literally the entirety for an unamped Base Momoshiki and make up all the feats for Kinshiki except for possibly one. That is consistency.
-WIS
WIS is Writed Induced Stupidity, it's commonly used for comic books where we have multiple authors and some that don't know the character they are writing as much as a previous author, thus that character's showings are bad. It's not applicable to Naruto nor Boruto.
-PIS
PIS is Plot Induced Stupidity, for when an action, sequence or event must occur for the plot to move forward. Such as Sakura punching Kaguya down, that needed to happen for the plot to advance with Kaguya's defeat. However, PIS is not applicable to Boruto in this entire arc. The plot did not rely on any event except that Momoshiki and Kinshiki are defeated.
-CIS
CIS is Character Induced Stupidity, for when characters act out of character. Not applicable here at all.
Naruto Currently Having Six Paths Senjutsu Doesn't Make Him 5-B:
Six Paths Senjutsu was not given to Naruto by Hagoromo, Naruto naturally awakened it.
Those who had Six Paths Senjutsu were Juubi Jinchuriki Obito, Juubi Jinchuriki Madara and... Naruto. The common denomitaro being that these characters all had Chakra from each of the 9 Bijuu and Hagoromo reveals that this is the case for Six Paths Senjutsu.
The Chakra of all the 9 Bijuu is not even Low 5-B, nor is it 5-C. However, Naruto scales to Low 5-B through Toneri.
Sasuke Currently Having the Rinnegan Doesn't Make Him 5-B:
Hagoromo didn't give Sasuke the Rinnegan, Sasuke naturally awakened it.
To awaken the Rinnegan one needs the Chakra of Indra and Ashura. As the reincarnation of Indra, Sasuke only needed Chakra of Ashura. Sasuke achieved that when Hashirama (the previous reincarnation of Indra) granted Sasuke his Chakra. Sasuke naturally awakened it.
Sasuke is Not Equal to Hagoromo with His Susano'o and the Bijuu Chakra:
Another large misconception is the believe that Sasuke is on par with Hagoromo through a statement by Kurama when Sasuke takes in the Bijuu Chakra into his Susano'o. This is literally misundestanding Kurama's words:
"This is Bad... He's merging all of the disseminated Chakra into one. And unbelievably well too, almost unrivaled... It's like Six Path's Geezer's level. Well, except that he's doing the reverse thing."
What Kurama is explicitly comparing between Sasuke and Hagoromo is their manipulation of the Bijuu Chakra. The giant clue is "he's doing the reverse thing." In the past Hagoromo manipulated the Juubi Chakra to become 9 fragments, the 9 Bijuu. What Sasuke is doing is the reverse, merging the 9 Bijuu Chakra into one.
Opinions and can we please get more keys for Teenage and Adult Sasuke. He really needs a Base, Rinnegan (Physically) and Susano'o keys for his profiles as his Base isn't Low 5-B through feats, his Rinnegan has 5-B Ninjutsu and his Susano'o is all around Low 5-B.
Edit:
Kaguya has been brought up for scaling for Naruto and Sasuke to be 5-B which has issues:
Kaguya Amendment
Kaguya is 5-B and interacts with Six Paths Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke, so why aren't the latter two 5-B as well?
The answer is obvious since those who made the Kaguya thread forgot to account for the fact that the Kaguya that fought Hagoromo and Hamura is not of the same power level as the Kaguya who fought Naruto and Sasuke.
Let's compare the two:
Past Kaguya:
It's quite clear that Kaguya in the past was much more powerful than in the present. Thus I propose she receives a new key and a cleanup of her current keys.
Currently Kaguya is rated as:
Tier: 5-B, higher with Infinite Tsukuyomi. 5-A with Expansive Truth Seeking Ball.
Attack Potency: Planet level (Stated to be more powerful than even the Sage of the Six Paths, overpowered Naruto's attacks, easily destroyed Sasuke's Susanoo, and changed the environment of an entire planet), higher with Infinite Tsukuyomi (The Chakra absorbed from Infinite Tsukiyomi Increases her stats exponentially). Large Planet level with the Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball. The Gentle Fist bypasses durability to an extent as it directly targets the nerves and life energy channels to disrupt the target's movements and ability to control their inner energy
My proposal:
Tier: At least Low 5-B, possibly 5-B with Infinite Tsukiyomi. 5-B, higher with Infinite Tsukuyomi. 5-A with Expansive Truth Seeking Ball.
Attack Potency: At least Small Planet level (Fought Six Paths Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke at the same time, easily destroyed Rinnegan Sasuke's Susanoo, and changed the environment of an entire planet ). Planet level (Stated to be more powerful than even the Sage of the Six Paths, fought Hagaromo and Hamura at the same time), higher with Infinite Tsukuyomi (The Chakra absorbed from Infinite Tsukiyomi Increases her stats exponentially). Large Planet level with the Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball. The Gentle Fist bypasses durability to an extent as it directly targets the nerves and life energy channels to disrupt the target's movements and ability to control their inner energy
Key: Present Kaguya | Past Kaguya | Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball
Hagoromo, Hamura, Kaguya and Toneri would remain unaffected. If the downgrade is to be accepted then only the characters mentioned above in the first paragraph are to be downgraded to Toneri's rating of Low 5-B.
Onto it then:
Explanation of the Current Ratings
Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto (Part II):
Planet level (Received half of Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki's power alongside Sasuke. Momentarily matched Kaguya's Gentle Fist with his chakra arms and sliced her arm off with a chakra claw. His Rasenshuriken was able to completely obliterate Madara's Chibaku Tensei, creating immense blasts)
Ashura Form:
Planet level (Likely far stronger than before. His Ultra Big Ball Rasenshuriken matched Indra Sasuke's Susano'o Arrow)
Adult:
Planet level (Much stronger than his previous state.Fought and overpowered Momoshiki Ōtsutsuki, despite the latter being far superior toHagoromo Ōtsutsuki, who was capable of doing this. )
Sasuke (Teenager):
Planet level (Comparable to Naruto, and created a moon alongside him)
Susano'o:
Planet level (Considerably stronger than before, after absorbing the chakra of all nine Tailed Beasts)
Adult:
Planet level (Should be equal to Naruto)
Momoshiki:
Planet level (Broke through Six Paths Kurama Mode Naruto's shield, knocking him unconscious in the process)
Fusion:
Planet level (Stronger than before, after absorbing Kinshiki Ōtsutsuki. Broke Sasuke's Susanoo, knocking him unconscious in the process. His Lava Golem could overpower Naruto's Kurama Avatar)
Kinshiki:
At least Small Planet level, possibly Planet level (Capable of splitting a planet with his bare hands. Fought with Sasuke Uchiha, who was wary of fighting the combined forces of him and Momoshiki)
Madara:
Planet level (Stronger than the likes of Toneri Ōtsutsuki, as he momentarily faced off against Naruto with Six Paths chakra. His Limbo could fight on par with Naruto's shadow clones. At least comparable to Sasuke and Naruto. Also spread the God Tree's roots as a side effect of his Infinite Tsukuyomi)
Delta:
Planet level (Physically fought with Six Paths Sage Mode Adult Naruto, who also considered her beam of light to be too dangerous to take a direct hit from)
Summary:
Most of justifications for the ratings of these characters are all scaling from Naruto or Sasuke while Sasuke scales from Naruto or their shared feat.
Why These Ratings Are Incorrect
Despite a common denominator (scaling to Naruto and Sasuke), I will still go over each individual character as to explain why their rating is incorrect.
Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto (Part II):
Naruto's rating is derived from the results of Hagoromo and his brother, Hamura, making a moon. The results of said calc yielded 400zt, split between Hagoromo and Hamura, thus them being 200zt each. Naruto and Sasuke were given power and Chakra from Hagoromo, thus giving them Hagoromo's 200zt split between them, thus a 100zt for Naruto and Sasuke.
Why this is wrong is because it assumes that Naruto and Sasuke performed the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei with their own Chakra which is false.
In chapter 671, Hagoromo bequeathed unto Naruto and Sasuke Six Paths power in their dominant hands. Per the visuals of the buddhist-like background, we see that Naruto receives a sun symbol in his right arm while Sasuke receives a moon symbol in his left hand. What these are further revealed to us through Kaguya and her Byakugan.
In chapter 679, the first time Kaguya sees Naruto and Sasuke (after they received power from Hagoromo) she notices that their dominant hands are engrossed with a large amount of Chakra and states that Hagoromo gave them a specific Jutsu. Reminder, the Byakugan (which Kaguya has) allows a user to see the Chakra Pathways in a target, it allows them to see the Chakra of their target.
In chapter 680, Sasuke reveals that the power given to them by Hagoromo was the Six Paths Power of Light for Naruto and the Six Paths Power of Shadow for Sasuke. The seals are the symbols of the sun and the moon as shown when Hagoromo gave them power and the locations are their dominant hand where Hagoromo passed this power onto them.
In chapter 681, Zetsu reveals that the power given to Naruto and Sasuke by Hagoromo was a powerful seal specifically meant to seal Kaguya. He explicitly states that they received the power to do so and that it is allocated for this specific seal to be meant on Kaguya as a powerful version of a Chibaku Tensei.
In chapter 686, we get direct confirmation from Hagoromo himself that at the moment he no longer has enough Chakra to perform large scale Jutsu due to having just given it away (to Naruto and Sasuke for the seals he has implaneted in their hands). This is further supported in chapter 690 when Hagoromo reveals he needed help and Chakra to bring back Naruto and his friends from fighting Kaguya in another dimension.
What We Know So Far:
- Hagoromo had given Naruto and Sasuke a sun and moon seal respectively in their hands.
- Kaguya reveals that they received a jutsu from Hagoromo in their hands and that it contains an enormous amount of Chakra per the Byakugan being able to see Chakra.
- Sasuke reveals that the seals in their hands are Six Paths power, thus from Hagoromo.
- Zetsu then reveals that the seals in Sasuke and Naruto's hands are directly from Hagoromo, a power they received through him, that is meant to seal Kaguya through a Chibaku Tensei.
- Afterwards, Hagoromo himself reveals he no longer has much Chakra due to having just given it away (obviously to Naruto and Sasuke for their seals).
In chapter 690, Naruto and Sasuke finally seal Kaguya using the seals given to them by Hagoromo. Per the visuals, the buddhist symbolism returns as well as the sun and moon symbols exactly the same as when Hagoromo first gave the seals to Naruto and Sasuke. Furthering reinforcing this being Hagoromo's power, not Naruto and Sasuke's.
Also in chapter 690, as soon as Naruto and Sasuke use the seals on Kaguya, the seals disappear from their hands and immediately return back to Hagoromo. The seals given to Naruto and Sasuke by Hagoromo meant for the Chibaku Tensei returned back to Hagoromo after the Chakra for the seal was used on Kaguya.
In Conclusion: Naruto and Sasuke did not provide any Chakra to perform the Chibaku Tensei, the Chakra and the Seal were are provided by Hagoromo himself. So the results:
- Naruto and Sasuke do not scale to the 10.4zt from the calc of the Chibaku Tensei on Kaguya. This feat was performed by Hagoromo's Chakra and his Jutsu. This calc belongs only to Hagoromo.
- Naruto and Sasuke do not scale to 100zt from having received Hagoromo's Chakra. Hagoromo's Chakra was specifically in the seal and allocated for the Jutsu on Kaguya as seen when it returns back to Hagoromo.
Ashura Form:
Naruto's Ashura is 5-B from matching Sasuke's Indra's Arrow. I will disprove Sasuke's rating in his section.
Adult:
Naruto's adult iteration is 5-B for being stronger than his teenage iteration. As I have proven, Naruto's teenage iteration isn't 5-B, thus his adult iteration isn't either. He would be Low 5-B from his younger self.
Sasuke (Teenager):
Sasuke isn't 5-B for the same reasons Naruto isn't 5-B. They both received Chakra that was allocated for the seal on Kaguya. They weren't given 100zt amount of Chakra to use as they please, the power given to them was in the seal meant for Kaguya. He would be Low 5-B like Naruto.
Susano'o:
Sasuke's Susano'o is 5-B for being stronger than before; however, Sasuke is no longer provably 5-B, thus his Susano'o would also fall down in rating, taking Naruto's Ashura Form along with it.
- Teenage Sasuke really needs a fix. Currently it only has two keys (Six Paths Power and Bijuu Susano'o) when he has different stats for when at Base, using his Rinnegan and when using Susano'o.
Sasuke's adult iteration is 5-B for being equal to Naruto's adult iteration; however, Naruto's adult iteration isn't 5-B, thus neither is Sasuke's. He would be Low 5-B from Six Paths Naruto.
- Adult Sasuke really needs a fix. Currently it only has one key when he has different stats for when at Base, using his Rinnegan and when using Susano'o.
Momoshiki is 5-B for breaking through Adult Naruto's Kurama manifestation and knocking out Naruto. Now, the blatant issue is that Adult Naruto is no longer 5-B and would be Low 5-B; however, the larger issue is that this wasn't a regular Momoshiki: Momoshiki had explicitly amped himself pretty massively using Chakra Pills that are meant for large enhancements.
So What Stats Does an Unamped Momoshiki Have?
We must look over all his feats then:
- Momoshiki (Off-screen and with the help of Kinshiki) incapacitates Gyuki, the Eight Tails (who is High 6-C).What is noteworthy about this Gyuki was stabbed with numerous blades which Gyuki is exceptionally weak to on top of this being done with the help of Kinshiki.
- Base Momoshiki easily kicks away Adult Base Naruto. Adult Base Naruto is currently listed as Unknow.
- Momoshiki is literally held back by Shikamaru's Shadow Paralysis. Momoshiki had to absorb the Jutsu to get out of it and Shikamaru is 7-C with Shadows.
- Momoshiki has to dodge an attack from Darui (who is 7-A at the moment).
- Momoshiki had to defend himself from a strike from Darui. Darui is still 7-A.
He has feats of limitations to Unknow, High 6-C, 7-C and 7-A.
Personally I think At least 7-A, Possibly High 6-C and Low 5-B with Chakra Pills is fine. He's definitely not Low 5-B in base as he never interacts with a Low 5-B character while unamped and his unamped feats are all against Tier 6 to Tier 7 characters.
Fusion:
Fusion Momoshiki actually displays some Low 5-B feats, but not in all stats.
- Post-Kinshiki Absorption Momoshiki no-sells a sword swing from Adult Rinnegan Sasuke Adult Sasuke doesn't have a rating for him without Susano'o).
- An angered Fusion Momoshiki only knocks out Darui with a kick (Darui is still 7-A).
- Angered Fusion Momoshiki has his punched blocked by Gaara's sand, has to go around the sand to attack Gaara, yet Fusion Momoshiki only knocks out Gaara as well (Gaara is only 7-A).
- Fusion Momoshiki kicking and only knocking out Chojuro (Chojuro has no profile, but he's probably 7-A from all the other Kage being 7-A).
- Fusion Momoshiki punching and only knocking out Kurotsuchi (Kurotsuchi has no profile, but she's probably 7-A too from all the other Kage being 7-A).
- Trades blows with Adult Base Naruto, outspeeds this Naruto and overwhelms him in their scuffle (Adult Base Naruto is still Unknow).
- Adult Base Naruto shifting to Six Paths immediately overwhelms Fusion Momoshiki and Fusion Momoshiki takes an elbow and kick from Naruto while being in visible pain (Adult Six Paths Naruto is Low 5-B' 'and it should be noted that this Naruto was weakened by Momoshiki earlier).
- Soon after, Sasuke sends Momoshiki flying back with a punch, although Fusion Momoshiki shows no pain nor surprise like with Naruto (Base Adult Sasuke still has no rating for him physically without Susano'o).
- Fusion Momoshiki's Lava Golem overpowers Six Paths Kurama (Six Paths Kurama is currently rated as Unknow).
- Lava Golem is easily defeated by Susano'o Clad Kurama (Sasuke's Susano'o is Low 5-B).
- [Weakened:] Absorbing the Chakra from several Jutsu fired from a Scientific Ninja Tool gave Fusion Momoshiki the chakra to cast a Shadow Paralysis Jutsu to physically restrain Chojuro, Kurotsuchi, Gaara, Darui, Base Adult Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke (They rate from Unknow to 7-A and no rating for Base Adult Sasuke physically).]
- [Weakened:] A Vanishing Rasengan from Boruto not only knocks back this Fusion Momoshiki but it breaks Momoshiki's Jutsu as well (Boruto is 8-kB).
- [Chakra Pill Amp after Weakened / Potentially regular Fusion Momoshiki:] Kicks Rinnegan Sasuke away (Adult Sasuke doesn't have a rating without Susano'o).
- [Chakra Pill Amp after Weakened / Potentially regular Fusion Momoshiki:] Stabbed by Boruto (Boruto is 8-B).
- [Chakra Pill Amp after Weakened / Potentially regular Fusion Momoshiki:] Momoshiki has his Bijuudama overpowered and is killed by a Cho Odama Rasengan made by Base Naruto and Boruto (Base Naruto is rated as Unknow).
So Fusion Momoshiki would only appear to be solidly Low 5-B in physical durability. His striking strength is not Low 5-B when the Low 5-B Six Paths Naruto physically overpowers him easily and Fusion Momoshiki doesn't even kill 7-A characters with his strikes and 7-A characters can stop his physical attacks.
Durability: Low 5-B (Takes a hit from Six Paths Adult Naruto).
AP: 7-A (KO'd the Kage physically), Unknow with Lava Golem (Overpowers Six Paths Kurama), Low 5-B with Chakra Pills.
Kinshiki:
Kinshiki's feats are almost all pathetically below Low 5-B:
- Kinshiki crosses blades several times with Base Adult Sasuke with both getting the upperhand a few times and Sasuke using Sharingan and Raiton (Base Adult Sasuke has no rating).
- (Off-screen and with the help of Momoshiki) defeats Gyuki, the Eight Tails (who is High 6-C). What is noteworthy about this Gyuki was stabbed with numerous blades which Gyuki is exceptionally weak to and made further worse since it was 2v1.
- Kinshiki is literally held back by Shikamaru's Shadow Paralysis. Further noteworthy since Kinshiki was in the middle of striking down on Sasuke, thus Shikamaru stopped Kinshiki mid-swing (Shikamaru's Shadows are 7-C).
- Kinshiki has to dodge an attack from Chojuro(Chojuro has no profile, but is probably 7-A like the other Kage)
- Kinshiki literally had to dodge another attack from Chojuro (Chojuro has no profile, but is probably 7-A like the other Kage).
- Chojuro crossed blades with Kinshiki and takes a hit from Kinshiki (Chojuro has no profile, but is probably 7-A like the other Kage).
- Kurotsuchi then sends Kinishiki flying and into the roots of this God Tree with a punch(Kurotsuchi has no profile, but is probably 7-A like the other Kage).
- Kinshiki takes a Chidori from Adult Rinnegan Sasuke (Adult Rinnegan Sasuke doesn't have a rating, but he should be Low 5-B through Ninjutsu as being equal to Six Paths Adult Naruto). Or, Sasuke could've held back, it would make Kinshiki furthermore consistent and isn't unreasonable of Sasuke.
- Kinishiki is pierced by a Jutsu from Chojuro (Chojuro has no profile, but is probably 7-A like the other Kage).
- Kinishiki is then incapacitated physically by Kurotsuchi's Jutsu with Kinishiki physically strained and in pain (Kurotsuchi has no profile, but is probably 7-A like the other Kage).
Kinshiki's profile should be At least 7-A, Possibly High 6-C for durability and Unknown, At least 7-A, Possibly High 6-C for AP. I say Unknown for AP since Adult Base Sasuke has no key/rating. His Adult profile needs more keys as I explained above.
Madara:
>Stronger than the likes of Toneri Ōtsutsuki
Toner is Low 5-B.
>he momentarily faced off against Naruto with Six Paths chakra.
Naruto would be Low 5-B with Six Paths Chakra at best.
>His Limbo could fight on par with Naruto's shadow clones.
They aren't 5-B, they would at best be Low 5-B.
>At least comparable to Sasuke and Naruto.
They aren't 5-B, they're Low 5-B.
>Also spread the God Tree's roots as a side effect of his Infinite Tsukuyomi.
That's not 5-B nor Low 5-B.
Madara should be all around Low 5-B from scaling to the Low 5-B Six Paths Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke.
Delta:
Delta's rating is derived from Six Paths Adult Naruto, that Naruto is no longer 5-B and and would be Low 5-B, thus putting Delta there as well.
Summary
All mentioned characters have their 5-B rating moved down to Low 5-B as they're all mainly scaling from Naruto and Sasuke who would no longer be 5-B and would move down to Low 5-B.
Rebuttals
I already know the obvious rebuttals, thus I will address them preemptively:
Momoshiki Isn't Stronger than Kaguya:
Perhaps the largest issue about this would be how many different iterations of this statement there are.
There are statements from Boruto Novel Volume 3, the Boruto anime and the main one from the Naruto Gaiden.
I'm not sure on the canon of the Boruto Novels as they aren't written by Kishimoto nor can I find out information if he helped with the writing or even considers it canon. It's dubious. Shueisha doesn't help as they aren't the creators of Naruto and they're "official timeline" of Naruto, that includes the Boruto novel, also includes non-canon material like the Boruto movie.
The Boruto anime's canon is up for debate as it's either an adaption of the manga (the manga states the anime is an adaption) or potentially secondary canon. Either way, we don't use secondary canon if it contradicts the main-canon (which it does), so I will be using the statement of "Momoshiki and Kaguya" that is directly written and drawn by Kishimoto; from the Naruto Gaiden manga.
From chapter 5 of the Naruto Gaiden, according to Sasuke, Kaguya was preparing an army of White Zetsu due to unknown reasons. Sasuke believes that Kaguya potentially feared something in the future; however, that was explicitly only conjecture.
I will now make points that disprove Momoshiki > Kaguya:
- The statement doesn't even reference Momoshiki, Kinshiki nor the Otsutsuki as a whole.
- This was solely conjecture by Sasuke's words, it's not even a fact that she feared something.
- The statement wasn't about a singular individual, Kaguya could've been fearing the entire Otsutsuki family, not just Momoshiki and/or Kinshiki as it could've been her fearing both of them together.
- The Boruto anime doesn't even reference that Momoshiki nor Kinshiki were coming after Kaguya in it's adaption of the Momoshiki arc, they literally didn't know what she was up to until very recently and they only went to the Naruto Earth as there were abnormalities detected on the planet. Momoshiki was interested if they had good Chakra only.
- The Boruto anime contradicts the Gaiden manga as it says Kaguya feared a powerful foe as a fact; however, it's not made clear if it means solely Momoshiki, Kinshiki, Fusion Momoshiki or another Otsutsuki member like Urashiki who is so far an Otsutsuki unique to the Boruto anime.
- Momoshiki in the Boruto manga had no interest in Kaguya, he only talks about her once when he realizes Sasuke had read her scroll on what Momoshiki's real intentions were: to take the Chakra of the Chakra Fruit.
- It's very likely that the danger is something else still as the Boruto manga continues since a greater threat is on the horizon that is still Otsutsuki related.
- None of the possible statements are about AP. They just say something Kaguya possibly fears or a more powerful foe; however, the latter can be explained because unlike Kaguya, Momoshiki and Kinshiki had Chakra Pills that massively amped their power. They were amassing such pills and stockpiling on them, making them a greater threat than Kaguya and potentially a more powerful foe if allowed to take in so many pills. Being a threat is not translatable to AP or Durability. I can be a greater threat than Conor McGregor if I knew how to make bombs, but he's stronger, faster and more durable than me. Momoshiki and Kinshiki were greater threat than Kaguya due to Chakra Pill being massive amps and things they were collecting and had stocks of.
- We don't use statements if they are not consistent or are contradicted. This statement is not consistent since it was said once and never again. This statement is completely contradicted due to the overwhelming amount of Tier 7 to Tier 6 feats that Momoshiki and Kinshiki had, so another chance it wasn't about them as well.
Kinshiki Doesn't Have a Planet Splitting Statement:
1) The statement is from a guidebook about the Boruto Movie which is not canon. It's a non-canon guidebook.
2) The statement wasn't a data statement, it was a hype statement. Hype statements are the same thing that said Temari has universal destructive power, they aren't actually data.
3) We don't use statements if they are not consistent or are contradicted. This statement is not consistent since it was said once in a non-canon guidebook and never again. This statement is completely contradicted due to the overwhelming amount of 7-A feats.
Momoshiki and Kinshiki Being This Weak is Not Inconsistent/PIS/CIS/WIS/Outliers for Kage:
These are straight up consistent anti-feats and the Low 5-B feats are straight up outliers.
-Outlier
Here is the Wiki definition of outlier:
An Outlier is an event or incident that is considered to be completely and irreconcilably inconsistent with a character, entity, group, or series' normal displayed level of power.
If you notice, outliers are singular events or incidents, the wording is not plural. An outlier is an object from a set that is not similar to the set. These feats of were actually consistent for the Kage and consistent for Momoshiki and Kinshiki. Outliers can be a super high-end feat or an extremely low-end feat that is not consistent with the majority of a character's feat. Base Momoshiki has no Low 5-B feat when unamped and Kinshiki only has one possible Low 5-B feat for his durability. It's not possible for them to scale with such poor consistent showings.
-Inconsistency
Here is the wiki definition of inconsistency:
In fiction, an inconsistency is when a character has an occurrence usually regarding power that differs from the norm. An inconsistency can work both ways, being either a low showing or a high showing.
Okay, as I explained above, this is not an inconsistency for the Kage, these are literally their first feats as of Boruto era. By definition they are not inconsistent. The feats make up literally the entirety for an unamped Base Momoshiki and make up all the feats for Kinshiki except for possibly one. That is consistency.
-WIS
WIS is Writed Induced Stupidity, it's commonly used for comic books where we have multiple authors and some that don't know the character they are writing as much as a previous author, thus that character's showings are bad. It's not applicable to Naruto nor Boruto.
-PIS
PIS is Plot Induced Stupidity, for when an action, sequence or event must occur for the plot to move forward. Such as Sakura punching Kaguya down, that needed to happen for the plot to advance with Kaguya's defeat. However, PIS is not applicable to Boruto in this entire arc. The plot did not rely on any event except that Momoshiki and Kinshiki are defeated.
-CIS
CIS is Character Induced Stupidity, for when characters act out of character. Not applicable here at all.
Naruto Currently Having Six Paths Senjutsu Doesn't Make Him 5-B:
Six Paths Senjutsu was not given to Naruto by Hagoromo, Naruto naturally awakened it.
Those who had Six Paths Senjutsu were Juubi Jinchuriki Obito, Juubi Jinchuriki Madara and... Naruto. The common denomitaro being that these characters all had Chakra from each of the 9 Bijuu and Hagoromo reveals that this is the case for Six Paths Senjutsu.
The Chakra of all the 9 Bijuu is not even Low 5-B, nor is it 5-C. However, Naruto scales to Low 5-B through Toneri.
Sasuke Currently Having the Rinnegan Doesn't Make Him 5-B:
Hagoromo didn't give Sasuke the Rinnegan, Sasuke naturally awakened it.
To awaken the Rinnegan one needs the Chakra of Indra and Ashura. As the reincarnation of Indra, Sasuke only needed Chakra of Ashura. Sasuke achieved that when Hashirama (the previous reincarnation of Indra) granted Sasuke his Chakra. Sasuke naturally awakened it.
Sasuke is Not Equal to Hagoromo with His Susano'o and the Bijuu Chakra:
Another large misconception is the believe that Sasuke is on par with Hagoromo through a statement by Kurama when Sasuke takes in the Bijuu Chakra into his Susano'o. This is literally misundestanding Kurama's words:
"This is Bad... He's merging all of the disseminated Chakra into one. And unbelievably well too, almost unrivaled... It's like Six Path's Geezer's level. Well, except that he's doing the reverse thing."
What Kurama is explicitly comparing between Sasuke and Hagoromo is their manipulation of the Bijuu Chakra. The giant clue is "he's doing the reverse thing." In the past Hagoromo manipulated the Juubi Chakra to become 9 fragments, the 9 Bijuu. What Sasuke is doing is the reverse, merging the 9 Bijuu Chakra into one.
Opinions and can we please get more keys for Teenage and Adult Sasuke. He really needs a Base, Rinnegan (Physically) and Susano'o keys for his profiles as his Base isn't Low 5-B through feats, his Rinnegan has 5-B Ninjutsu and his Susano'o is all around Low 5-B.
Edit:
Kaguya has been brought up for scaling for Naruto and Sasuke to be 5-B which has issues:
Kaguya Amendment
Kaguya is 5-B and interacts with Six Paths Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke, so why aren't the latter two 5-B as well?
The answer is obvious since those who made the Kaguya thread forgot to account for the fact that the Kaguya that fought Hagoromo and Hamura is not of the same power level as the Kaguya who fought Naruto and Sasuke.
Let's compare the two:
Past Kaguya:
- Fought two 5-B characters (Hagoromo and Hamura)
- Required the power of two 5-B characters to be sealed.
- Had the full Chakra of the 9 Bijuu.
- Had the entire Shinju tree in her.
- Had the Infinite Tsukiyomi Chakra already taken in as she casted long before fighting Hagoromo and Hamura.
- Fought two Low 5-B characters (Six Paths Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke).
- Required the power of one 5-B character to be sealed (Hagoromo alone had the power to seal her as he gave Naruto and Sasuke his power to do so, this is blatant proof she's already much weaker).
- Did not have the full Chakra of the 9 Bijuu (Was missing parts of Bijuu 1-8 and 50% of Bijuu 9).
- Did not have the entire Shinju tree in her (Naruto cut the Shinju tree and Madara had only taken in the upper part of the Shinju that had come off from Naruto's cut, the base and all the roots were not taken in by Madara and in turn Kaguya).
- Did not have the Infinite Tsukiyomi Chakra in her until the very end (even after she takes in the Infinite Tsukiyomi Chakra, she never interacts with Six Paths Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke as she becomes sealed by them immediately after she gets the amp).
It's quite clear that Kaguya in the past was much more powerful than in the present. Thus I propose she receives a new key and a cleanup of her current keys.
Currently Kaguya is rated as:
Tier: 5-B, higher with Infinite Tsukuyomi. 5-A with Expansive Truth Seeking Ball.
Attack Potency: Planet level (Stated to be more powerful than even the Sage of the Six Paths, overpowered Naruto's attacks, easily destroyed Sasuke's Susanoo, and changed the environment of an entire planet), higher with Infinite Tsukuyomi (The Chakra absorbed from Infinite Tsukiyomi Increases her stats exponentially). Large Planet level with the Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball. The Gentle Fist bypasses durability to an extent as it directly targets the nerves and life energy channels to disrupt the target's movements and ability to control their inner energy
My proposal:
Tier: At least Low 5-B, possibly 5-B with Infinite Tsukiyomi. 5-B, higher with Infinite Tsukuyomi. 5-A with Expansive Truth Seeking Ball.
Attack Potency: At least Small Planet level (Fought Six Paths Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke at the same time, easily destroyed Rinnegan Sasuke's Susanoo, and changed the environment of an entire planet ). Planet level (Stated to be more powerful than even the Sage of the Six Paths, fought Hagaromo and Hamura at the same time), higher with Infinite Tsukuyomi (The Chakra absorbed from Infinite Tsukiyomi Increases her stats exponentially). Large Planet level with the Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball. The Gentle Fist bypasses durability to an extent as it directly targets the nerves and life energy channels to disrupt the target's movements and ability to control their inner energy
Key: Present Kaguya | Past Kaguya | Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball
