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Zoro vs Luffy (Pre-Timeskip, East Blue Saga) (ONE MORE VOTE UNTIL GRACE)
- Thread starter JediMindTrickz
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It's simple, Zoro lost against Arlong (here in VSBW), east blue zoro isn't as tanky as arlong or faster than kuro, (who luffy could rely on his instincts to catch him, despite Kuro being faster than Luffy). You could argue Zoro has gotten stronger, but the same applies to Luffy. Luffy being vulnerable to sharp weapons isn't such a major weakness when Luffy got hurt/slashed by things as sharp as Zoro's swords or, even sharper. Both equally matched in skills so you can basically throw this out of the window (this is a high diff for either zoro or luffy), intelligence doesn't really matter here, because Luffy already defeated Mr. Everything was part of my plan (Kuro is undeniably one of the smartest east blue villain luffy has fought so far).
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Not to mention Arlong also used this against Luffy.
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Did...Did Zoro really defeated luffy both Pre-Time Skip and post time skip?
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Check his profile page.
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Very old vs battle and the main argument was Arlong would break Zoro's swords without any real evidence given to support why.
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I agree. I think it should be redone. Zoro's page has updated to the point where Arlong theoretically shouldn't even be able to touch Zoro.
Zoro is a far better swordsman, he has every form of Acrobatics as well as Enhanced senses AND reactive Power level. That battle is totally outdated.
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Besides, i haven't heard an actual reason why Zoro beats Luffy. Arguments such as "being smarter", "more skilled" and "but he has sharp weapons" being thrown around in this thread.
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Arlong was in fear seeing the wounds Zoro was living from so that's wrong
Kuro has the highest IQ, that doesn't equal the highest skill in battle so no we would judge them based off how skilled they're shown in combat.
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Would be good if arguments could be presented forward as to who's more skilled
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Except, that does equate to his Analytical skills as shown here: Luffy caught him off-guard, so he wouldn't have no way of knowing the limit and the distance of Luffy's pistole, yet, here he's just standing onto Luffy's arm, while mocking him. The latter, he was impressed that Luffy wasn't all about stretching.
Kuro's vast experience in assassination, as well as outsmarting the marine for many years to the point of earning his epithet "100 plans Kuro" , Kuro said himself, he faced plenty skilled bounty hunters, marine soldiers (Captain Morgan included) and strong pirates and And his crew being impressed, despite knowing Kuro for too many years.
Jango states he could easily kill 60 professional assassins at once, suggesting he does have the skills and intelligence to get his bounty till he meets Luffy.
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I mean, it wouldn't matter. Since in the primary canon source material, both were evenly matched in skills. Neither is more skilled or intelligent.
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The statement was purely about his IQ, i'm not arguing he's not skilled just that the statement doesn't make him more skilled than Zoro.
It would, during that battle neither really utilized their skill and choose to clash in power, the fight never reached the point where either of them started showing more than just simple clashes.
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That wasn't my point, though. My point was Kuro was more intelligent and experienced than luffy, in other words, intelligence isn't a factor here.
This will be a constant back and forth, both trained relentlessly from a young age. Both defeated enemies stronger, faster and more durable than them (Luffy mostly fights the major big bad bully, but this is not the point here). I think, you could literally throw the whole skill battle away, because it's impossible to prove who's more skilled when the gap isn't that big.
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All I'm seeing is them clash back and forth with each other, compared to their other fights they really weren't utilizing any of their skill/battle intelligence to get the upper hand.
Even if he beats people more skilled than him that doesn't make intelligence not a factor in a battle involving Luffy, instead you would go over how Luffy defeated Kuro and work out if this method would work on Zoro.
It's not impossible to prove, a debate and comparison of their skill feats hasn't even started yet to conclude that.
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No proof.
It's not luffy's weakness... It's a way to hurt him same as other humans.
This is east blue Zoro.
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Because they couldn't when fighting each other.
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I mean, that was Oda's clear intention to make both seem "relative" in skills. Otherwise, zoro shouldn't have got hurt by Luffy's pistole, if the Skill gap was that massive, it was also implied that neither side would win for certain, there is nothing that indicates Zoro could skill stomp same goes for Luffy. The fundamental problem is that both Luffy and Zoro are too similar, even started their independent superhuman training from young age like no tomorrow.
Also would please elaborate on why intelligence is such a factor here?
Already refuted it above.
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Besides, if Zoro is that much skilled and experienced than Luffy, what feats does he have to put him far above Luffy, who already defeated like 3-4 big name pirates in this Key, that even Zoro's experience pales in comparison to Buggy, Kuro, Krieg and Arlong.
(Debating skills here is kinda idk, we are literally debating who's more skilled a swordsmaster vs a rubber boy martial arts master, and this will end up in a constant back and forth.)
(Debating skills here is kinda idk, we are literally debating who's more skilled a swordsmaster vs a rubber boy martial arts master, and this will end up in a constant back and forth.)
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Proof of that? neither choose to do that and instead clashed head to head against each other, it was a brawl to dictate who was stronger and neither utilized any of their skillful movements like they did in their previous battles (A clear example being that neither attempted to dodge the others attack at all and literally just clashed head to head)
The Bazooka and the Onigiri clashed head on, neither attempted to dodge it was a clear head to head battle as was the rest of the battle; the whiskey peak fight wasn't an example of them being comparable in skill but strength. Again no attempt has been made to to go over both combatants skill feats to determine that instead off using a brawl of power to determine they're both equally skilled. If they're both very similar we should be identifying where they're not similar to make a distinction on who wins the battle.
Intelligence is a factor in all battles
Battle experience is good but doesn't trump actual skill feats as far as I'm aware, I know you've took part in several Zoro thread where massive paragraphs of what he's capable of have been brought up so I know you're not ignorant of what he should be capable off, so really an example of what Luffy is capable off skillwise should be brought up to be compared too.
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Because they couldn't
they are the same.
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Prove they couldn't because from what I've seen of that fight neither attempted to dodge once.Because they couldn't
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Again, this is way too debatable. And literally proved my point about it being a constant back and forth. Honestly, I'm getting tired of it. Since the whole fight between Luffy and Zoro in the manga is left to draw our own conclusions and interpretations of what's presented to us. You can claim it wasn't Oda intention, while I can claim it was definitely Oda's intention, so before you say the burden of proof is on me, the same applies to you it's literally arguing headcanon and interpretations here.
Not really. If Einstein were to fight someone who can blow up his brain in an instant via Hax, then intelligence doesn't really matter. Intelligence only gets you as far as you can, but in the end it purely depends on your opponent, if he's too haxed, then what's being smart can do?. In this case, both are smart (Luffy's battle smartness), as well as Luffy actually defeated someone far smarter than him on-screen, whereas Zoro in this key hasn't defeated or fought anyone as smart as him, hence intelligence isn't a factor and nor is always in any fictional debating.
I'm awfully aware of these threads. However, we are talking about East Blue Zoro and East Blue Luffy, and most of his skill feats coming from the latter. I have brought up enemies Luffy defeated who are far experienced and smarter than himself. Both Zoro and Luffy are skilled, the whole back and forth shouldn't be the main focus at all, if Oda wanted to emphasize that Zoro could skill stomp Luffy in their fight, he would have made it more clear. Since it's normal for him to do that, but he didn't.
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Because they couldn't
prove that it would work.
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It was a constant back and forth clash I never tried denying that. Three translations for this page:
Viz Translations: "Now we'll find out who's superior, the swordsman or the fighter"
Fan Translations: "this will be a good chance to see which is stronger your unarmed combat or my sword fighting"
Stephan Paul Translations: "This is a great chance to find out which is stronger: martial arts or swordsmanship"
The following fight was them hitting each other back and forth in extremely close combat, it was a battle to decide which of them was the stronger individual like they said and like what was shown. Even when the fight was interrupted and they attempted to continue they just tried to hit each other in a clash, there wasn't any of the smart maneuvers they showed in their previous fights just back and forth brawling.
What relevance does this example hold, it's completely pointless? The two of them are very similar so definining who has greater intelligence via combat skill etc is probably the best thing to do instead of trying to act like intelligence is meaningless to this debate.
Btw what is the proof that Kuro has greater battle intelligence than Luffy? You've given feats of what he's capable off but why does that not just show how skilled Luffy is, why is it impossible to look at the kuro fight see how he overcame Kuro's greater intelligence and determine if that same method would work against Zoro? So because Zoro hasn't defeated anybody more skilled/intelligent than him it makes his skill feats and intelligence meaningless against Luffy?? That makes no sense
East Blue Zoro and Luffy have plenty of skill feats that can be used to determine their skill level.
Who claimed Zoro could skill stomp Zoro, I know I didn't. Saying what Oda should have done in that fight isn't really credible to use against who is more skilled, Against Kaido Zoro on-screen showed non of his major skill feats against him, does this mean Kaido is more skilled than Zoro because Oda choose not to show off Zoro's skill as the primary focus of the fight? probably not.
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I never claimed they couldn't dodge each other, you did. But if you want proof look at any fight they've been in against comparable opponent's where both sides were completely capable of dodging the others attacks.Because they couldn't
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Luffy FRA.
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Not as comparable as luffy vs Zoro.
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Anyways I'll vote Zoro:
In terms of strength and speed they're both equals as proven by the whiskey peak fight, that's undeniable and their instincts should be equal to my knowledge. The difference arises when you compare where they're different. Zoro at this point in the story has shown more endurance than Luffy being capable of losing many liters of blood without passing out and even when he's on the verge of passing out he was still capable of fighting and overcoming his opponent as shown against Hachi.
In terms of skill besides Luffy being very combat smart in overcoming his opponent's weaknesses I don't remember many amazing skill feats from him at this point in the story. Zoro on the other hand was capable of defeating Hachi on the verge of falling unconscious with two weapons unfamiliar to him (I'm sure many have heard this feat described before so I'll keep it at that).
Zoro also holds the advantage of the weapon's he's using which can act as as a shield against Luffy's attacks if he choose to do so; Zoro can block Luffy's hits with his swords preventing damage to his own body while Luffy himself doesn't hold that advantage (besides with his sandles). Also as was brought up above their ranged abilities, Zoro can utilize hawk wave and tatsumaki which can be AOE and allow him to keep at a distance where as if Luffy wants to abuse range he would be forced to leave himself vulnerable to zoro cutting into his outstretched arm.
In terms of strength and speed they're both equals as proven by the whiskey peak fight, that's undeniable and their instincts should be equal to my knowledge. The difference arises when you compare where they're different. Zoro at this point in the story has shown more endurance than Luffy being capable of losing many liters of blood without passing out and even when he's on the verge of passing out he was still capable of fighting and overcoming his opponent as shown against Hachi.
In terms of skill besides Luffy being very combat smart in overcoming his opponent's weaknesses I don't remember many amazing skill feats from him at this point in the story. Zoro on the other hand was capable of defeating Hachi on the verge of falling unconscious with two weapons unfamiliar to him (I'm sure many have heard this feat described before so I'll keep it at that).
Zoro also holds the advantage of the weapon's he's using which can act as as a shield against Luffy's attacks if he choose to do so; Zoro can block Luffy's hits with his swords preventing damage to his own body while Luffy himself doesn't hold that advantage (besides with his sandles). Also as was brought up above their ranged abilities, Zoro can utilize hawk wave and tatsumaki which can be AOE and allow him to keep at a distance where as if Luffy wants to abuse range he would be forced to leave himself vulnerable to zoro cutting into his outstretched arm.
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I'll say it in the most respectful way possible, I don't wanna debate about this argument any further, I already told you what I think about it, so let's agree and disagree.
I was refuting to your "intelligence is a factor in all debate" argument, you didn't explicitly state this fight, you were implying Intelligence plays always a role in other battles and here too, so my example does play a role here, if you don't believe allow me to quote it "Intelligence is a factor in all battles", you don't use "all battles" when you are just referring to this fight.
Again, you are missing the point. I explicitly said both are skilled and the skill gap isn't that massive to turn it into a "who's more skilled and intelligent battle?" Both are extremely skilled and intelligent on their own wise yet share too many similarities to each other, do we honestly need to downplay either Luffy or Zoro's feats for the sake of it? Luffy is not a swordsman, so unfairly comparing him to other swordsmen to make Zoro seem more skilled doesn't work, also regarding my Kuro argument; Luffy beating despite, Kuro being undoubtedly more intelligent than him, simply means that Intelligence isn't a big factor here, in other words saying "Zoro is more intelligent than Luffy so he wins" argument is disproved by Kuro's sole existence. This is East Blue Zoro, before he achieved the pinnacle of swordsmanship -- the breath of all things. Or "Zoro is more experienced" argument when Luffy literally fought Don Krieg and Arlong. Heck shouldn't endurance the bigger factor here anyways?
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Alright then don't
Fair enough
I think you're the one missing the point, these two are very similar like you said so the way of defining who wins is determining who is greater in each category and in how many more categories no matter how big of a difference there is as those will be the defining factors of who wins the battle regardless of how similar they are in other aspects. This isn't a case of downplaying one or the other, instead we're coming to a conclusion of what they're capable off.
When did i compare Luffy to other swordsmen to make Zoro seem more skilled? I listed one of Zoro's best skill feats that is all. Also it very much isn't disproved, looking at how Luffy overcame Kuro we see he used a rock to break his katana claws and grabbed him as he hit him so that he could restrain his movements. So you'd need to prove that these examples would work on Zoro to throw away Zoro's skill advantage.
To my knowledge I've never claimed Zoro had more experience than Luffy, as I don't see that being the defining factor of this battle as experience is relative. And Zoro not having the breathe of all things at this point doesn't really matter as none of my points as to why I think Zoro wins involves it.
Endurance is definitely a big factor as it determines who can endure more damage and fight longer, and considering how close/equal they are in other categories that's kind of important considering it will mostly be an endurance battle.
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Lets keep this civil. I've been liking the discussion so far.
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When am I supposed to do a grace period and what does that entail?
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