Zeref dragneel against Son goku

[CloverDragon03]

The point here is that there is a distance between them, and since Goku wants to kill from this distance, he will send a ki attack or a kamehameha at him.

Goku in Ultra Instinct has objectively never started a fight with ki blasts. It's presumptuous to assume that's what he'd start with

The discussio above is kinda useless, since SBA don't say they are willing to kill.

Okay yeah, reading it now, it says:

State of mind: In character, but will attempt to win the battle. Characters will not give up of their own accord. That means a character that is uninterested or sees no chance of winning won't simply leave and characters wouldn't simply become friends with each other. This doesn't prevent a character being made to give up, because the other character manipulates them via things like, for example, mind control, fear inducement, psychological tricks or superhuman charisma.

Each character will view their opponents as enemies, who they have to assume wish to cause them severe harm such that losing could have any range of dire consequences. The characters will assume their opponents have not been forced into battle. They are assumed to have decided from free will to fight and are not excused by a just cause, difficult times or otherwise exonerating circumstances. Furthermore, the situation is assumed one where the opponents are not protected by social norms or consequences, such as being a civilian protected by law.

So this is pointless anyway. Goku goes for a punch and dies to Death Predation

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yes, that's what I said, but it affects whether Zeref can use the death manipulation.

It doesn't affect that at all lmao. One way for a character to win is via killing the other one, so why would this suddenly restrict Zeref's Death Hax?

 

[Quintessence_PE]

Goku in Ultra Instinct has objectively never started a fight with ki blasts. It's presumptuous to assume that's what he'd start with

of course he uses his fists against people he is very close to, but there are many times when he attacks with his ki attack or kamehameha against people who are at a distance.

 

[CloverDragon03]

of course he uses his fists against people he is very close to, but there are many times when he attacks with his ki attack or kamehameha against people who are at a distance.

Yes, like when he was far away from Jiren in their final fight and rather than blasting him, he went up to him for a punch

 

[Quintessence_PE]

It doesn't affect that at all lmao. One way for a character to win is via killing the other one, so why would this suddenly restrict Zeref's Death Hax?

I talked about it affecting his ability to control this ability, I was told so, but we have already discussed that he can control this ability.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I talked about it affecting his ability to control this ability, I was told so, but we have already discussed that he can control this ability.

Okay, because I was confused from this for a moment

 

[Quintessence_PE]

Yes, like when he was far away from Jiren in their final fight and rather than blasting him, he went up to him for a punch

Because his Ki attacks on Jiren weren't working.

 

[CloverDragon03]

because the jiren ki attacks weren't working

He was able to blast him away in their first fight wdym?

 

[Quintessence_PE]

It's not right for you to constantly use arguments for goku like he won't do it, he can't do it, his character is not suited for it.

 

[CloverDragon03]

It's not right for you to constantly use arguments for goku like he won't do it, he can't do it, his character is not suited for it.

I am arguing from knowledge of the character and what he does, regardless of your personal dislike of it

 

[Quintessence_PE]

He was able to blast him away in their first fight wdym?

In general, Jiren is not affected at all by these attacks, but in many other fights goku uses the ki attack, and considering that goku will attack to seriously injure zeref, it makes much more sense to use a ranged attack at this distance.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

I am arguing from knowledge of the character and what he does, regardless of your personal dislike of it

I understand, but goku will use kamehameha because he really wants to finish that fight and hurt zeref because you know that goku uses kamehameha in every fight he wants to finish because it's his finishing ability.

 

[CloverDragon03]

In general, Jiren is not affected at all by these attacks, but in many other fights goku uses the ki attack, and considering that goku will attack to seriously injure zeref, it makes much more sense to use a ranged attack at this distance.

That's only in the face of weaker ki attacks, though. And also, keep in mind that Zeref's got significantly less AP and durability than Goku, so a punch would also seriously injure him. Goku doesn't somehow know that Zeref is immortal and has death hax, just as Zeref doesn't know Goku's skillset. In most cases, a punch is how Goku starts a fight

 

[Quintessence_PE]

That's only in the face of weaker ki attacks, though. And also, keep in mind that Zeref's got significantly less AP and durability than Goku, so a punch would also seriously injure him. Goku doesn't somehow know that Zeref is immortal and has death hax, just as Zeref doesn't know Goku's skillset. In most cases, a punch is how Goku starts a fight

I understand, but goku will use kamehameha because he really wants to finish that fight and hurt zeref because you know that goku uses kamehameha in every fight he wants to finish because it's his finishing ability.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I understand, but goku will use kamehameha because he really wants to finish that fight and hurt zeref because you know that goku uses kamehameha in every fight he wants to finish because it's his finishing ability.

You're basically saying that Goku will start a fight with his finishing move, which doesn't really add up.

Goku wants to win, yes, but in-character he also measures up his opponent first.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

You're basically saying that Goku will start a fight with his finishing move, which doesn't really add up.

he's going to attack to do damage and finish the fight, of course that makes sense.

 

[CloverDragon03]

he's going to attack to do damage and finish the fight, of course that makes sense.

It... really doesn't. Please don't make me repeat this...

Goku is a martial artist. Krillin talks about this at the start of his first fight with Jiren, where martial artists are always sizing up their opponents before going all-out. There's no reason to assume he'll automatically start with his finisher. It's important to note that "wanting to win' =/= "wanting to end the fight immediately"

 

[Quintessence_PE]

It... really doesn't. Please don't make me repeat this...

Goku is a martial artist. Krillin talks about this at the start of his first fight with Jiren, where martial artists are always sizing up their opponents before going all-out. There's no reason to assume he'll automatically start with his finisher. It's important to note that "wanting to win' =/= "wanting to end the fight immediately"

would you measure the strength of a person you want to seriously injure and incapacitate
The only argument you can make against me is that this is not Goku's personality, how long are we going to keep this up?

 

[CloverDragon03]

would you measure the strength of a person you want to seriously injure and incapacitate

Uh, yes! Goku does this several times throughout the series (like Cell, for example)

The only argument you can make against me is that this is not Goku's personality, how long are we going to keep this up?

Well I'd say it's a very good argument considering both Goku and Zeref are in-character. If you don't like it, that's another problem entirely.

I'm gonna keep this up until I get a proper refute to this, because yours have been very shaky at best in my honest opinion

 

[Quintessence_PE]

Uh, yes! Goku does this several times throughout the series (like Cell, for example)

Well I'd say it's a very good argument considering both Goku and Zeref are in-character. If you don't like it, that's another problem entirely.

I'm gonna keep this up until I get a proper refute to this, because yours have been very shaky at best in my honest opinion

Since neither of us has changed our minds, it seems we have no choice but to look at the votes.
goku is probably 5 votes ahead but I still don't think we can get into the profiles whatever the result is

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm getting mixed signals from you and Robo on the vote tally so I'm just gonna wait for it to be actually updated by the OP tbh

This might just turn out to be a mismatch anyway, or Inconclusive

 

[Quintessence_PE]

I'm getting mixed signals from you and Robo on the vote tally so I'm just gonna wait for it to be actually updated by the OP tbh

I counted the votes that came in after the last edit, so I think the count is correct.

This might just turn out to be a mismatch anyway, or Inconclusive

will probably be ignored

Also, the main reason I am arguing for goku here is that I don't see anyone else who can defend it.

 

[Burkiqwe]

11 pages...

 

[CloverDragon03]

Also, the main reason I am arguing for goku here is that I don't see anyone else who can defend it.

I mean I feel that, I didn't think the other arguments given for Zeref were that great either

 

[LordGinSama]

It... really doesn't. Please don't make me repeat this...

Goku is a martial artist. Krillin talks about this at the start of his first fight with Jiren, where martial artists are always sizing up their opponents before going all-out. There's no reason to assume he'll automatically start with his finisher. It's important to note that "wanting to win' =/= "wanting to end the fight immediately"

To play Devil's Advocate here Goku isn't always that stupid. Against Cell that was either a moment of CIS or Goku simply wanting to play with his food. With other characters with levels of Regeneration that far exceed his hand to hand damage Goku will opt to try to end the fight as soon as possible.

While in SSJ3 he wanted to actually kill Majin Buu instead of toying with him like he did Cell. Same thing with Kid-Buu and Buutenks. (With Goku using deadly cutting attacks against Buutenks from the start.)



And since I'm playing Devils Advocate (which pains me.) does Zeref have any direct counters for Goku sending a Genkidama his way? That should be a valid win-con given that Zeref isn't exactly what I'd call pure hearted. Perhaps at first but the Ugly Fairy does in fact develop quite a bit of malice and evil within his heart as the series went on. The Genkidama could also possibly cleanse Zeref of his curse of contradiction.



As far as Death Manipulation is concerned Goku should logically be able to push it away via Ki attacks or simply destroy the effected area. Zeref's Death Hax doesn't spread instantly, quickly but not instantly so Goku should have plenty of time to avoid it via IT'ing out of it's on ground range (To my knowledge his Death Hax isn't airborne and mainly effects the ground.), push it back with Ki attacks or destroy the effected area to dispell it.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Goku and zeref fans can't stand each other, so it's a 7-page discussion that has no purpose

That's not true, I'm a fan of both works and at the same time I work with both.

 

[BaranDragneel]

.

“don’t mess with me lil bro” ~

That's not true, I'm a fan of both works and at the same time I work with both.

Love you bro, As Zeref fans. We all love you actually.

 

[MeidoIzayoi]

holy 11 pages, can this match be even added in the first place?

 

[LordGinSama]

Baran do yourself a favor and shut up already. You're a new user here, don't go outside of your pay grade by starting shit with users here with a vastly better reputation than you.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

11 long pages, I think this can be wrapped up ;-;

 

[BaranDragneel]

That's only in the face of weaker ki attacks, though. And also, keep in mind that Zeref's got significantly less AP and durability than Goku, so a punch would also seriously injure him. Goku doesn't somehow know that Zeref is immortal and has death hax, just as Zeref doesn't know Goku's skillset. In most cases, a punch is how Goku starts a fight

I agree with you, Why would Goku use a skill like that to a character with less AP and durability than himself. So goku wouldn't use it and if he couldn't use that, he wouldn't get though of Zeref's immortality and Death hax.

 

[BaranDragneel]

Baran do yourself a favor and shut up already. You're a new user here, don't go outside of your pay grade by starting shit with users here with a vastly better reputation than you.

Why y'all trying to have beef with me recently, Whats the thing that bothers you

 

[SuperStar]

Zeref FRA.

 

[LordGinSama]

Why y'all trying to have beef with me recently.

Because of your smug ass behavior. You came into this thread with an arrogant attitude which is reflective. You can debate like a normal user, not some random new user that thinks he's the shit.

Whats the thing that bothers you

Listen up pal, if anyone is going to be rude and annoying to @Arc7Kuroi it'll be me or @Deceived3596 God dammit.