Yukari vs Tiamat

[Promestein]

Yukari Yakumo vs Tiamat.

Speed equalized, or at least brought into similar ranges so that they can actually keep up with one another.

Takes place on Earth, of course. Victory by death, incapacitation, BFR, etc. Both are in-character. The rest is up to standard battle assumptions.

Remember to state your reasoning and stay civil.

Yukari: N/A

Tiamat: 2

Inconclusive: 3

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Oh goodness. Yukari ain't putting down Fate's version of the Echidna. And with all that extra stuff? Giving it to her.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

For some reason I thought it was Yuuka Kazami facing Tiamat for a moment. Was a bit stunned by that thinking you've gone mad on Yuuka.

Anyway uh, Yukari can technically handle the condition of the immortality well. Mental resistance could handle that cellular mind control. Although the infinite number worries me. Then again BFRing them to a story might work perhaps? Or would adjusting Tiamat's story be possible to weaken her? Cause Fate characters are based off of legends although that part is more speculative on my end.

On the other hand what exactly has Invulnerability protected against? As in the strongest condition or attack?

Right now thinking BFR would be Yukari's best option although wondering what each of those infinite monsters could do.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Looks at tiamet's profile, Ôùë_Ôùë, yea yukari isn't putting her down, she is too hax, i am gonna have to give it to her for her immortality, acuasailty, conceptual manipulation, invulnerability etc. At best this is gonna be inconclusive.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Oho? Found something

Nega Genesis: A The same type of skill as the Nega Messiah of the Beast VI A conceptual bounded barrier able to subvert the modern theory of evolution, prediction of Genesis. Having this, the Beast II gains strong resistance against the Noble Phantasms of Servants born from proper human history.

So anything human is something she's very resistant against regarding conceptual manipulation?

 

[Andykhang]

...Yukari is definitively not human though, more over I don't think there're any Youkai of her type in the history. (Not to mention she is in different verse...)

Edit:...Is those infinite monster being able to climb out of the asmosphere and live, since that's what Yukari could do (I'll bet the infinite monster wouldn't be able to live in the sun too)? And beside BFR... destroying the earth itself would work also ( by letting the earth just getting a bit too close to the sun, for instant ). And technically, planting the concept of death is like building the boundary of death/live...

 

[Reppuzan]

@Core

She has resistance to anything born from proper history on Earth, as in not distorted by the effects of Goetia's rampage, the use of Holy Grails, and the creation of singularities.

@Andy

It also works against anything born from humanity, including myths and gods. How are Youkai related to humans in Touhou?

Yukari would have to overcome Tiamat's Acausality, Lack of a Concept of Death, Reliant Immortality (She won't die until every other being on Earth dies first), Omnipresence throughout all of space-time, Explicit immunity to time travel shenanigans, and her ability to survive in a realm of imaginary numbers where neither time, nor space, nor alternate realities exist.

To kill Tiamat in-story, they needed to deny her Reliant Immortality advantage by tossing her into the underworld (which required the death of an ancient Divine Spirit, who can control concepts and is master of the Underworld), needed to have the concept of death placed on her, her fate severed, her time of death rewritten to the present, the very reason for her existence wiped from the fabric of time herself, and the struck by an enormously powerful Conceptual Weapon that shows the "Truth" of the world and destroys concepts like they were going out of style with the only thing being known as powerful enough to block it being a Higher-Dimensional Construct.

Does Yukari have any way of accomplishing ALL of these things before Tiamat creatures swarm her?

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

What defines proper human history however? Gotta ask that. Since Gensokyo is effectively severed from human history and isolatd from it so I find it likely that her powers would work. And wouldn't simply killing everything in Earth work then? Still thinking about the other things.

The capability to isolate something and bring it into a realm of stories, dreams and pictures would be Yukari's best feat in this case. She could technically influence life and death as she was able to seal something that causes death but by that alone it shouldn't be enough to give a death to Tiamat. But being pulled from the real world and into something that's only 2-D could BFR her. Also not so sure if the death of a Divine Spirit immediately converts to "All their conceptual power is used to pull her in here."

Also stll not really buying the conceptual weapon being necessary to kill her.

And she can isolate herself and keep herself entirely separate from those creatures at least. Although from the looks of it this might effectively turn into "Time travel and use precog to find out more" and somehow make an episode out of this or something.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Core

The way things play out should be roughly comparable to what we have today in our modern day perception of myths, legends, and history. King Arthur should throw Excalibur back to the lake and not become an evil Lance-wielding Goddess. Tiamat should not be wrecking Uruk due to being asleep at the time. Thomas Edison should not be a hulking lion man in a spandex suit and definitely should not be President of the United States. If the abilities of these youkai coincide with human perception of them (i.e. Yuki-Onna have powers over ice and not fire), then Tiamat will have resistance to it.

Tiamat is still Acausal and came back from a realm where nothing but imaginary numbers exists. BFR is only going to make her go berserk and flood everything in the area with mud before running back to Earth thanks to her omnipresence in space-time.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

I think a youkai isolating an entire region and making a kingdom out of it would count as not something humans expected. And even then the Outside World, aka the human world, is quite distinct from the actual existing world I think. Also Thomas Edison is freaking amazing.

I'm only judging from the page itself but doesn't acausal only apply to time and causality based effects? Being tossed into a realm where space and time doesn't exist is something. Although it seems a bit distinct from a realm that's 2-D. Not by much though... But if Yukari herself uses conceptual manipulation on the actual 'story' or 'picture' its effect might be boosted considering... well she's now there.

On the other hand has she done anything like pulling someone out of a realm? Because if Yukari isolates herself she should be unreachable by her since it seems to be that Tiamat is more resistant focused on concepts and such.

Also on the weakness it notes that as long as she's not on Earth, she wouldn't have the effect of the "I can only die when you kill everything else"

 

[Reppuzan]

@Core

Acausality also means that the character can still be alive in the future after being killed/transmuted/transmogrified/BFR'd/rendered inert in the past. Given her Nigh-Omnipresence throughout time and space, she can easily jump back in from another timeline. King Hassan's Azazel was explicitly needed to remove both of these abilities (severing fate, rewriting time of death, wiping out the reason for her existence from all of time).

You're right about Tiamat not having her Reliant Immortality when not on Earth, but she still has access to literally every other ability in her arsenal.

She's also explicitly immune to Instant Death attacks, as proven when Azazel did not instantly kill her when she should be dead in every sense of the word.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Hmm so it's basically immortality to the next level. True... Could argue for Remilia's fate manipulation due to her being the vampire that caused the incident before the spellcards and her temporal interaction alongside life and death connection to Yuyuko that me and Fate talked about could add up to the middle. But the last part is another hard thing... Edit - Might be associated with fate though, since aren't those two the same?

I'm taking a break from offense. Does Tiamat have anything to reach Yukari once she realizes she can't go on the offense and instead isolates herself on another realm? Don't think she could access that so easily since the land weakness might be an issue, key word might.

Forgot to add the question mark. Just clarifying.

 

[Reppuzan]

Fate Manipulation sure as heck won't work, given that Azazel literally fated her to die and she's still kicking.

Tiamat has a four-dimensional pocket that allows her to spawn a literally infinite amount of monsters to swarm her foes. Each one of them bears her authority against anything of human design/belief, can fly, and can threaten Divine Spirits like Ishtar and beings as powerful as Enkidu. They all have Regenerationn, can fuse with beings, and multiply endlessly.

 

[Andykhang]

Damn... if only she's shown have this ability in this fanfic, it would have make debate much more easier: http://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/2223880?pool_id=4297.

A damn good story, btw. Still, this honestly would put it in inconclusive, at least until I could find out more about how to.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Well a bit of it would be enough to comply with that factor.

So what if Yukari isolates herself and separate the space she's existing like what she did to Gensokyo?

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Andy, it's against the rules to link to pervy websites.

Also thank you for that, now I got something to read while I study.

 

[Andykhang]

No prop. Still, as this rate, unless Tiamat is showed to be able to go pass the boundary of Reality/Fantasy, or Yukari is able to interfere at least the imaginary numbers realm or something...Wait, would destroy the earth technically mean Tiamat must escape the current timeline, and thus is Yukari victory by forfeit?

 

[Reppuzan]

@Andykhang

You're misunderstanding something. Tiamat ca survive outside of Earth, but she cannot be killed while she's on Earth until everything else is dead. So no, that logic would not fly.

You still have yet to provide an argument to show that Yukari can come up with a way to get around Tiamat's acausality.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Andy I don't know where you're getting at but that's not right. If you make a character move from another spot it isn't winning.

 

[Andykhang]

Wait, you said she won't have the ability to keep living as long as the earth is death, but to actually make her death, you must place her a concept of death?

Edit: and wait, would Mystic Eyes of Death Perception work on her?

 

[Fabtastic_Glasses]

It won't. MEoDP only works with something that has death, and Tiamat doesn't has it

 

[Andykhang]

I thought MEoDP see "living" as in the continuation of their's interference with the world though? Would that mean she could interfere without having it's proof?

Edit:...So wait,that mean if she doesn't have the concept of death, not even removing her time from the present to the future would work?

 

[Fabtastic_Glasses]

Put it simply, MEoDP let you strike the lines and/or dots created by concept of death. If you don't have it, MEoDP won't do anything. King Hassan deathhaxing Tiamat is a bit different from MEoDP, he literally applies the concept of death to Tiamat to make it killable


Edit : Just saw your edit. IIRC it was stated somewhere that pulling a time shenanigans on her won't work.

Edit 2 : Ah yes, i think its her Independent Manifestation skill.

 

[Andykhang]

...Setting aside the offense (like COB), could you tell me how does she cycle the True Ether?

 

[Fabtastic_Glasses]

Dunno, AFAIK it was never stated how she does it. Only that she does it anyway

 

[Andykhang]

Hah...Theoriatically, if she combine Life/Death, Form/Empty and Motion/Stillness, she could insert the concept of death onto her. Then it's just the matter of letting the sun do all the business of destroying the earth and herself.

...Buuuut since Life/Death is only seen on the neitherworld border, and the other 2 on spell card. I'll said she doesn't have enough feat for putting Tiamat down (well, at least her boundary is just as strong as her)

 

[Reppuzan]

@Andykhang

She cycles True Ether through the mud she creates as long as she remains in the sea, of which she has an infinite amount due to embodying the primordial soup before life began. When taken out of the sea, she just goes berserk and floods everything with even more mud, making that more detrimental than anything.

You still seem to not understand the fact that Tiamat can survive off Earth and survived in a realm where literally nothing but imaginary numbers existed. Throwing her into the Sun is not going to do much and she literally fought Quetzalcoatl, the embodiment of the sun in Aztec Mythology.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Reppuzan, Andy meant bringing Earth closer to the sun to bypass the kill everything on Earth condition. Not throw her into the sun.

In the end it seems like this really is inconclusive with how Yukari can also just be untouchable by isolating herself and attacking. Technically it's arguable that she could fulfill the conditions presented above regarding the three requirements with the fate, purpose, and time of death. Although imo the first two are practically the same.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

So, Yukari is stealing Reimu's power now?

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Like hiding in another dimension or her gap dimension? If shebdid it to a kingdom with a small amount of prep time ( since they were gonna fade away ifbthey didnt do it fast) doing it to herself shouldn't be too hard. Or well she can just attack from a spot where she can't be reached. And funnily she did teach Reimu you know.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yep. Basically FN. with the same lack of limits as it to boot.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Oh would you look at that. Fantasy Nature was unlocked during Imperishable Night, when Yukari started to help out Reimu. And the limitations are here that well, it doesn't mean she floated above reality now.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

What...coincidence? Yeah. This is coincidence. Not irony.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Either way even if we ignore that... She could still hide in her gap dimension and attack from there.

Cal you're the only that said coincidence. I simply well.. Imppied it by pointing it out.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I was more or less talking to myself

 

[Andykhang]

Oh yeah, kill everything on Earth also delete her reason of existence too (I was planning for truth/lie to do that, or destroy Eath Prime). And I don't think she would mind finding this version of Earth being destroy. Heck, her own world is threaten to be destroy and she doesn't even bat an eyes on that.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

To quote Reppuzen:

"To kill Tiamat in-story, they needed to deny her Reliant Immortality advantage by tossing her into the underworld (which required the death of an ancient Divine Spirit, who can control concepts and is master of the Underworld), needed to have the concept of death placed on her, her fate severed, her time of death rewritten to the present, the very reason for her existence wiped from the fabric of time herself, and the struck by an enormously powerful Conceptual Weapon that shows the "Truth" of the world and destroys concepts like they were going out of style with the only thing being known as powerful enough to block it being a Higher-Dimensional Construct."

Unless yukari has been shown to not only be able to place the concept of death on beings who have no such concept and then be able to kill said beings by destroying concepts on the level that only a higher dimensional construct can block it, i am calling wank on yukari being able to kill tiamet, i want feats of yukari doing something similar and not theoreticals, even if we agreed yukari had conceptual manipulation it's trash compared to what i am seeing here that needed to be done to kill tiamet.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Andy, don't wank now.

Basically what CP says, I would search and there is a possibility, but can't stay too much online now and it's not too big. On the other hand though from my findings it seems that anyone that can survive life wiping attacks and her monsters could easily survive Tiamat since her offensive prowess isn't that impressive. (I also found out being placed in a world of imaginary numbers is unquantifiable but that's not my focus). Either way my point still stands, nothing's stopping Yukari from just hiding in her gap dimension (This is without the isolating ability that real cal doesn't beleive in (just being truthful here)) to 'attack' althogh any attack she does to Tiamat would be moot, but it's the same case for Tiamat. We can claim Yukari is much stronger than what she really is, but in the end we're only using the actual feats we are given. Kinda like Saitama.

Edit - So all in all... This ends in a tie since they can't kill each other.

 

[Andykhang]

Hm... the only thing I could think of next is perhap constructing a suitable weapon or gear with her ability to make the fantasical (like the Perpeptual machine), with the amount of free time she will have and the ridiculously huge amount of material.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

She. Doesn't. Have. That.

She compared Okuu's power to be better than that, although it's arguable on how strong it is but it's nothing. It means. Nothing. That's the likelier scenario than either of them dying.