Touhou General Revisions (Tier 2 Removal, Hax Revisions)

[Moritzva]

Yeah, sure, sorry about that. Very frustrating to argue against someone who believes a low 2-C character taking damage from a rock isn't an outlier.

Alright, thank you. If I may, I do believe Jinsye's point is less that Touhou characters are tier 10, but that if 'taking damage' (it may be an outlier in terms of AP and durability, in fact, it definitely is, but that doesn't mean damage wasn't inflicted - just that it's an outlier for purposes of tiering) dropped this soul energy, that it may be an inherent property rather than a special ability inflicted upon enemies.

You probably don't agree with this, perhaps not whatsoever, but I can imagine that makes a bit more sense, no?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Alright, thank you. If I may, I do believe Jinsye's point is less that Touhou characters are tier 10, but that if 'taking damage' (it may be an outlier in terms of AP and durability, in fact, it definitely is, but that doesn't mean damage wasn't inflicted - just that it's an outlier for purposes of tiering) dropped this soul energy, that it may be an inherent property rather than a special ability inflicted upon enemies.

You probably don't agree with this, perhaps not whatsoever, but I can imagine that makes a bit more sense, no?

If merely 'taking damage' is what triggers it, then that still doesn't make sense. How would characters with low 2-C durability 'take damage' from a falling rock? This is not a scenario where we can assume they were limited by spell card rules, as this isn't an organized duel and is just... a rock. I could care less about what Jinsye thinks of the tiers themselves; I just think that a scenario where a character is harmed by something way below their level, we should discard it and all the accompanying context. We do this for basically every other game on the site, so Touhou shouldn't be an exception.

Also, if we discount the rock thing, we have two interpretations left: Everyone can manipulate spirit, or everyone has a weakness that causes them to lose spirit when they get hit. As Jinsye has admitted, the former interpretation would be more reasonable if the rock thing wasn't a factor.

Furthermore, WoG confirms that it is the player's actions that are responsible for causing spirit power to spawn. This, in conjunction with the many non-gameplay showings of characters directly absorbing or manipulating spirit, shows that it is a very common power that essentially anyone can use (and is even just a physiological trait for some).

To recap: The rock anti-feat is an instance of a character being harmed by something leagues below their tier, and is an outlier, meaning we cannot use it for AP, durability, hax, or whatever else. Even if we did use that feat, it would be overwritten by WoG and numerous canon feats of spirit manipulation.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Actually that first bit may have been confusing, so let me try to explain it differently. We can't say that one part of the feat is valid but another part is invalid; It kinda has to be all or nothing in the case of one feat. It's like saying "the feat happened, but it also didn't", which is a weird contradiction that I don't think we should take into consideration.

So if the AP/durability aspect of the feat is an outlier, we can't use the hax aspect.

 

[Vietthai96]

If i'm not wrong, Jinsye's points not being AP or Durability but rather: Fujiwara using gameplay to prove that Touhou characters can damage their opponents and make them lose/drop spirit....however in the same gameplay characters can also lose/drop spirit because of a rock (or whatever it is) thus the legitimacy of the ability being questioned.

This is my take as a neutral party

 

[Moritzva]

If merely 'taking damage' is what triggers it, then that still doesn't make sense. How would characters with low 2-C durability 'take damage' from a falling rock? This is not a scenario where we can assume they were limited by spell card rules, as this isn't an organized duel and is just... a rock. I could care less about what Jinsye thinks of the tiers themselves; I just think that a scenario where a character is harmed by something way below their level, we should discard it and all the accompanying context. We do this for basically every other game on the site, so Touhou shouldn't be an exception.

Also, if we discount the rock thing, we have two interpretations left: Everyone can manipulate spirit, or everyone has a weakness that causes them to lose spirit when they get hit. As Jinsye has admitted, the former interpretation would be more reasonable if the rock thing wasn't a factor.

Furthermore, WoG confirms that it is the player's actions that are responsible for causing spirit power to spawn. This, in conjunction with the many non-gameplay showings of characters directly absorbing or manipulating spirit, shows that it is a very common power that essentially anyone can use (and is even just a physiological trait for some).

To recap: The rock anti-feat is an instance of a character being harmed by something leagues below their tier, and is an outlier, meaning we cannot use it for AP, durability, hax, or whatever else. Even if we did use that feat, it would be overwritten by WoG and numerous canon feats of spirit manipulation.

I will interject and say that an AP outlier alone won't discount everything related to a feat (only the AP/durability aspects of it), and this is true for most verses. I can't name many since it's not exactly a common scenario, though it's definitely something that could be found among video games where outliers are pretty common. My point mostly being, just because something is an outlier and shouldn't have hurt a character doesn't mean that we ignore the non-durability effects and implications that came from it doing so.

My point being that, just because it doesn't make sense for a rock to have hurt them and we won't base their tiers off of it, we aren't going to conclude that it didn't happen at all. It still did, regardless, so effects that came from the input of taking damage would still make sense.

I don't have a huge stake in this argument, I'm only making a point for the sake of understanding and hopefully making Jinsye's point make more sense to you, even if you disagree. If what I said doesn't make sense, well, I tried. Either way, let's try to keep this civil and proper, and I'll be watching both sides.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

If i'm not wrong, Jinsye's points not being AP or Durability but rather: Fujiwara using gameplay to prove that Touhou characters can damage their opponents and make them lose/drop spirit....however in the same gameplay characters can also lose/drop spirit because of a rock (or whatever it is) thus the legitimacy of the ability being questioned.

This is my take as a neutral party

Basically, yes, but the rock feat doubles as a hax feat (characters dropping spirit power) and AP/durability feat (characters getting harmed by the rock). We can't just say one half is true and the other is false; They're either both valid, or both invalid.

So do we accept both as valid, or both as invalid? Since a tier 9 rock harming universal characters is an anti-feat, the latter interpretation makes more sense.

I will interject and say that an AP outlier alone won't discount everything related to a feat (only the AP/durability aspects of it), and this is true for most verses. I can't name many since it's not exactly a common scenario, though it's definitely something that could be found among video games where outliers are pretty common. My point mostly being, just because something is an outlier and shouldn't have hurt a character doesn't mean that we ignore the non-durability effects and implications that came from it doing so.

That seems a little ridiculous. A feat can't be half true and half false. Either a character did something, or they didn't. Plus, the anti-feat relies on assuming the characters get harmed by the rock at all. If we assume there's no AP anti-feat, then they either didn't get hit by the rock or weren't harmed by it, so the hax anti-feat can't even happen in that case.

I feel like this is a weird VSBW-ism that doesn't make any logical sense but is something we only do to make things easier or more simple or whatever.

My point being that, just because it doesn't make sense for a rock to have hurt them and we won't base their tiers off of it, we aren't going to conclude that it didn't happen at all. It still did, regardless, so effects that came from the input of taking damage would still make sense.

I don't have a huge stake in this argument, I'm only making a point for the sake of understanding and hopefully making Jinsye's point make more sense to you, even if you disagree. If what I said doesn't make sense, well, I tried. Either way, let's try to keep this civil and proper, and I'll be watching both sides.

Well, my other points about spirit from WoG and other feats still stand, so I'll let Jinsye respond to those.

 

[Moritzva]

WoG and other feats, I have no comment on.

I will say, at least from my perspective, the idea of outliers is not "This didn't happen and is false", but "This did happen, but the AP involved in it doesn't really connect with anything else that happened, so we aren't going to use this to determine durability." Maybe it's a bit of a weird VSBW-ism, but at the very least, it's how I've seen things go down. If I'm wrong, maybe some old timers will tell me so sometime.

For perspective, if instead of a rock, they got hit by a planet, would you agree with Jinsye on that point?

That's about all I have to say, though. Thanks for understanding and listening.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The planet thing would still be an outlier, but yeah, I get your point. I probably would agree with Jinsye in that case, but that's still just a hypothetical.

I just think in a feat based on cause and effect, if the cause is an outlier, we don't really have a reason to assume the effect is valid, since without the cause, there is no effect if that makes sense. In this case the cause is getting hit by a rock (outliers for durability/speed), and the effect is losing spirit.

Like, imagine a calc for KE, where a character moves mach 50 and has 8-A AP as a result (don't check my math on that please). If the speed is an outlier, then the basis of the 8-A rating isn't valid either... so if we don't the speed, where does the 8-A rating come from?

 

[Vietthai96]

I'm not against or support anyone here since i'm not knowledge on Touhou, and is secretly Touhou music enjoyer

The thing is, when you use gamaplay to prove that characters have a hax that make their opponent to lose spirit, logically speaking, why a rock can still make them lose spirit, is that rock have hax???, or simply that is only gameplay mechanic that everyone lose spirit???, or simply with Jinsye reasoning is: character's weakness???. I think that is the purpose of the discussion

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm not against or support anyone here since i'm not knowledge on Touhou, and is secretly Touhou music enjoyer

The thing is, when you use gamaplay to prove that characters have a hax that make their opponent to lose spirit, logically speaking, why a rock can still make them lose spirit, is that rock have hax???, or simply that is only gameplay mechanic that everyone lose spirit???, or simply with Jinsye reasoning is: character's weakness???. I think that is the purpose of the discussion

Because the gameplay doesn't have any outliers when its character vs character. Characters are usually portrayed as comparable in speed regardless of tier, and their AP is usually equalized under spell card rules. We can't apply that same logic to the rock though, so now we can analyze if it's an outlier (which it is).

 

[Moritzva]

The planet thing would still be an outlier, but yeah, I get your point. I probably would agree with Jinsye in that case, but that's still just a hypothetical.

I just think in a feat based on cause and effect, if the cause is an outlier, we don't really have a reason to assume the effect is valid, since without the cause, there is no effect if that makes sense. In this case the cause is getting hit by a rock (outliers for durability/speed), and the effect is losing spirit.

Like, imagine a calc for KE, where a character moves mach 50 and has 8-A AP as a result (don't check my math on that please). If the speed is an outlier, then the basis of the 8-A rating isn't valid either... so if we don't the speed, where does the 8-A rating come from?

Well, I suppose my general lack of Touhou knowledge (hence why I'm mostly just spectating this) actually helps me prove a bit of a point in this case. Technically, if being hit by a planet is an outlier, then we'd be unable to derive any feats, information about abilities, or similar from anything besides what is explicitly and clearly on the level of a character's abilities. I get the feeling that would be pretty difficult to do, especially for higher-tiered verses.

I get your point, but I suppose you could say that fiction is naturally inconsistent and verses rarely consistently show feats, especially for higher-end matters. Now, how we tier the durability and attack potencies because of this, that's a case-by-case basis. But, in terms of interactions with powers, abilities, physiologies, and passives, I'd say they're fair game. Even if we don't treat an attack as a surefire example of what would be the peak of a character's raw power, aspects not related to raw power would be separate from that.

I'll let Jinsye get to their points, now.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It's a bit different when comparing characters as opposed to natural hazards. A character accidentally cutting themself on a knife would probably be an outlier, but Sakuya's knives having universal AP has feats backing that up. Similarly, I don't think people have an issue with separating the spikes Eggman uses on his cosmic-level machines to attack Sonic from the spikes you find in regular stages, where the latter is an outlier and the former isn't.

Well, this is a case where the hax are tied to raw power (since Jinsye's interpretation is that spirit falling out only happens when "getting hit harshly"). So while you're obviously right, this is a bit of an edge case where the two are connected.

Still, if we do accept feats like this, I'll probably just leave it at that and make a thread on it. I'll just wait for Jinsye at this point :v

 

[Moritzva]

I suppose it may be a very complicated matter dependant on context and factors on a case-by-case basis rather than a universal rule.

 

[RifxyLeant]

Following.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Why do I feel like I'm gonna regret responding to this

I'm kinda leaning towards agreeing with Fuji on Spirit but I'll wait for more input before saying for sure since that debate doesn't seem concluded atm

Based on the counter arguments I think Resistance to Probability Manip, Mid-Godly, Dream stuff, Doremy's stuff, Resistance to Soul Manipulation, Yukari's Power Null Resistance, and Koishi's NEP are fine and valid. Neutral on Hourai Regen, Acausality Type 4, and Subjective Reality,

No clue what to do with the Necromancy Resistance lol, feels like a grey area.

I'm in agreement with Jinsye on all her other Hax proposals though (axing Conceptual Manipulation, Youkai's fear hax, removing Yukari's Fear Manip, ect).

As for the cosmology shenanigans, I agree with Fujiwara's points on the on the Infinite Corridor, but can't really give a well-informed opinion on the brane cosmology stuff or Low 1-C though.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I had more to say regarding spirit but I guess I can now save that for a later revision I hope. From what I remember, Jinsye was fine with Kaguya's ability being time stop/causality manipulation as well as characters getting resistance to those abilities (in the very first part of this post). That should probably go under stuff fine to keep since the OP seemingly disagrees with the removal now. She's free to correct me if I'm wrong, though.

Anyways, thanks for the evaluation. I'll still defend spell card concept hax and Yukari's fear manip if you're willing but I understand if not.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

I honestly feel like tier 1 should be left out of this revision and saved for a different thread/CRT. Adding such a huge topic onto here with so much other stuff to go go over and all admins involved being neutral/uncertain of it means we should probably save its evaluation for later.

I think the reasoning for keeping concept manipulation is pretty sound, but I'm neutral on anything regarding fear haxx or fear manip, though I lean towards keeping it.

 

[Jinsye]

Going to ignore everything about rocks being an outlier because Mori explained my point decently well and we seem to be past that point.

Evidently you didn't bother reading the blog. I will recount the many, many instances of spirit acting as metaphysical energy.
-In 17.5 it's stamina.
-Tenshi's spell card that fires spirit is described as firing temperament. It is also described as a 'lump of negative human emotions' (and temperament, again).
-The mist in SWR is a mist of spirit. That mist is also referred to as temperament.
-Spirit and temperament are literally stated to be the same thing by Yuyuko.
-Kokoro's spell card that uses emotions is also said to be using spiritual energy,

Already we know that spirit is stamina, emotions, and temperament. This alone disproves the idea that it is a physical object. However, since spirit = temperament, there is more we can do with this.
-Temperament is the subconscious.
-Komachi says temperament is phantoms.
-Sakuya says that the mist of temperament is phantoms, and says it's chi.
-And Youmu says the same thing.
-Phantoms are souls, which I hope to god I don't have to provide scans for.

This is exceptionally consistent. Dozens of separate scans corroborate spirit being a non-physical energy source, whether that be stamina, emotions, souls, chi, or everything all at once. But the point remains: Spirit is not a physical item. And sure, you can nitpick individual statements, but enough of them are blatant enough that it's quite clear that spirit isn't physical.

In conclusion, your 'more evidence' claim is maybe one of the most bold-faced lies I've seen on this wiki.

None of this necessarily points to the power items that are dropped from enemies being literal spirit/souls. Which is something I find hard to believe. You did prove spirit is indeed a metaphysical concept, I'm not arguing that and I was never arguing that.

But let me say my point again just to make it clear.

Do you have proof that these spirit power items that drop from enemies are quite literally their spirit? This is a very hefty claim that you've made and as far as I can see this is your only proof that they are one and the same.

A singular name being similar is nowhere near enough proof that these items are quite literally someone's souls/minds. There are many other lower-end interpretations which you can take that don't contradict anything. I don't like assuming the highest end interpretation off of such simple evidence.

What if they're items that simply boost your Spirit Power? That could explain them being called 'spirit power items' very easily and contradicts absolutely nothing. A low-end interpretation, sure. However, when you've presented a complete lack of evidence for these 'spirit power items' being one in the same as Spirit then we shouldn't shoot for the highest possible interpretation.

What's more reasonable with the current evidence that you have provided me? Eternity Larva carrying normal items for a fight, or her carrying literal souls of people for a fight? As far as I can tell, it's the former.

I'm open to changing my mind, of course. Contrary to what some people seem to believe I don't want the verse to be as weak as possible. But you're going to need actual evidence that proves that these Power items are quite literally spirit besides "it has spirit in the name!".

This is just argument from incredulity. We know she has NPI via harming youkai (she fights Aya in HSiFS), we know spirit is souls, so like.... her carrying souls doesn't contradict anything. Yeah, it's a little weird, but that doesn't make it wrong.

As said above, it is very strange when you've provided literally no proof so far that the "power items" in which she is carrying are literally souls. The way these power items are used, described, and mentioned as makes me believe that they are just items. Once again, just being called "spirit power items" does not mean that they are literally spirit.

We wouldn't assume a "mana item" is quite literal mana without any further proof for example.

Did I not provide the video of Reimu getting hit by Rumia once and immediately dropping spirit? That was what I was referring to. To recap the list of instances where spirit drops:
-Upon getting hit (as the protag in the STG games)
-Upon being 'defeated' (as a generic enemy)
-Every couple seconds while fighting (STG bosses)
-Upon blocking a projectile attack (Fighting games)
-Upon grazing (fighting games)

Basically, there is a lot of variance in this, though they all share the common theme of 'getting hit/getting almost hit', which is where my interpretation comes from. But it always relies on input from another spell card user, and never some random environmental hazard (barring massive ******* outliers). To be clear, I'm not opposed to indexing spirit manipulation differently, since its mechanics aren't 100% consistent, but characters absorbing/reducing it is the part that remains true regardless of the game itself.

Assuming you did convince me that the P items are actually souls. You have provided five instances of this happening, and literally all of them contradict each other.

As a protag, literally every hit drains your soul. However, once said protag becomes a boss then their soul only drains every so often (since it's not "every few seconds", you can wail on a boss for a while without them dropping Power items).

And then this is once again contradicted by the fighting games, where you straight up don't lose Spirit upon getting hit with a projectile unless you're blocking? Unless you're near specific projectiles without getting hit by them, which absolutely does not follow our current interpretation at all.

With this many contradictions, there is a very strong argument for all of the "spirit draining" mechanics just being game mechanics, as it's never consistent with how it works.

Though to repeat, I am NOT saying Spirit is game mechanics, just all of these methods to drain spirit.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I'm currently getting our interpretation is that "every single bullet will spirithax you". So we absolutely need to get rid of that if we're keeping spirit because the mechanics are so inconsistent and assuming that is quite frankly headcanon territory.

 

[Jinsye]

Furthermore, WoG confirms that it is the player's actions that are responsible for causing spirit power to spawn. This, in conjunction with the many non-gameplay showings of characters directly absorbing or manipulating spirit, shows that it is a very common power that essentially anyone can use (and is even just a physiological trait for some).

Woops, this part got deleted for some reason.

This entire statement is like, pretty heavily game mechanics though. I don't think we take these guidebook like statements of "there is a cycle for enemies dropping items" without heavy scrutiny.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Going to ignore everything about rocks being an outlier because Mori explained my point decently well and we seem to be past that point.

Nah, hang on. Do you admit the rock feat is an outlier (in terms of AP/durability)? This is important because the interpretation of 'the rock causes them to drop spirit' relies on them getting hit by the rock in the first place. If the feat is an outlier, then we assume they didn't get hit by the rock, which means they never lost spirit, OR them losing spirit happened for reasons completely unrelated to the rock.

It's an issue of cause and effect, where you can't say the cause didn't happen but the effect did happen. If getting hit by the rock (cause) did not happen, then neither did the protagonists losing spirit (effect). Does that make sense?

None of this necessarily points to the power items that are dropped from enemies being literal spirit/souls. Which is something I find hard to believe. You did prove spirit is indeed a metaphysical concept, I'm not arguing that and I was never arguing that.

But let me say my point again just to make it clear.

Do you have proof that these spirit power items that drop from enemies are quite literally their spirit? This is a very hefty claim that you've made and as far as I can see this is your only proof that they are one and the same.

A singular name being similar is nowhere near enough proof that these items are quite literally someone's souls/minds. There are many other lower-end interpretations which you can take that don't contradict anything. I don't like assuming the highest end interpretation off of such simple evidence.

What if they're items that simply boost your Spirit Power? That could explain them being called 'spirit power items' very easily and contradicts absolutely nothing. A low-end interpretation, sure. However, when you've presented a complete lack of evidence for these 'spirit power items' being one in the same as Spirit then we shouldn't shoot for the highest possible interpretation.

First of all, the fighting games refer to the same meter, which works virtually identically across all games, as both spirit AND spirit power. So those are still undeniably one and the same, unless you somehow want to argue that there just so happen to be two completely identical power systems that do the exact same thing and just happen to be named slightly differently. I hope you can realize how wild of an assumption that is to make without evidence. Furthermore, let me explain the concept of 'power spots', which are spots that increase your power. The power they provide is 100% identical to the power one gains in the games (since they're both measures of how powerful your danmaku is). And that power is stated to be the 'energy of nature', which applies to spirit power as well. Now, that's a pretty vague statement, but it does undeniably prove that spirit power items aren't physical in nature.

But most importantly, this is just a blatant admission of argument from incredulity. You find it hard to believe that characters have soul absorption, so they don't. Eternity holding souls is 'weird', therefore it's automatically wank and wrong. What a stellar argument, truly.

TL;DR: Spirit and spirit power are confirmed to be the same thing via the fighting games, spirit power is objectively non-physical energy, please stop arguing on the basis of "I think this is weird".

Assuming you did convince me that the P items are actually souls. You have provided five instances of this happening, and literally all of them contradict each other.

As a protag, literally every hit drains your soul. However, once said protag becomes a boss then their soul only drains every so often (since it's not "every few seconds", you can wail on a boss for a while without them dropping Power items).

And then this is once again contradicted by the fighting games, where you straight up don't lose Spirit upon getting hit with a projectile unless you're blocking? Unless you're near specific projectiles without getting hit by them, which absolutely does not follow our current interpretation at all.

With this many contradictions, there is a very strong argument for all of the "spirit draining" mechanics just being game mechanics, as it's never consistent with how it works.

Though to repeat, I am NOT saying Spirit is game mechanics, just all of these methods to drain spirit.

You have no idea what game mechanics is. Game mechanics must be restricted to the game itself; If there exists an in-universe justification for why some video-gamey logic exists, we can't say it's game mechanics. This is especially true of Touhou, which has an in-universe justification for just about every game mechanic; Hell, that's where spell cards, one of the largest parts of Touhou lore, come from in the first place. Same goes for stuff like extra lives (literally just life-force), game-specific mechanics (weather in SWR, urban legends in ULiL, and perfect possession in AoCF all being game mechanics with lore explanations), and, of course, spirit power, which is confirmed to exist on two separate occasions by Sanae and Kanako (this is regardless of whether or not you buy them being souls).

A central mechanic changing from game to game isn't game mechanics. D&D is perhaps the clearest example of this, where the fundamental rules of how the entire game works is redone every so often, but the core idea of those mechanics remains intact; Saving throws and spell resistances change with time, but the fundamental things they represent do not, and they are thus usable as actual abilities and resistances on this wiki. The same is true of Touhou, where the verse tends to go back and forth on how spirit absorption/reduction is portrayed, but it always remains intact in some form.

This entire statement is like, pretty heavily game mechanics though. I don't think we take these guidebook like statements of "there is a cycle for enemies dropping items" without heavy scrutiny.

The point is that it was intended by ZUN to make it so the player/protagonists were responsible for the cycle of spirit power drops, not external factors. The rock is a contradiction to that, so it can't be used.

But I have to ask, what makes this game mechanics and not, y'know, a rock causing someone's soul to fall out with no explanation? Feels like a completely arbitrary distinction

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Actually, one more thing. If spirit power is just a collection of items, then how exactly do characters naturally regenerate it? Earlier you mentioned that assuming characters have some sort of passive transmutation that changes spirit into spirit items would be weird, so how is assuming characters passively create spirit power items any more reasonable?

weird, it's almost like the 'spirit power is physical items' interpretation causes more problems than it solves

 

[Jinsye]

Actually, one more thing. If spirit power is just a collection of items, then how exactly do characters naturally regenerate it? Earlier you mentioned that assuming characters have some sort of passive transmutation that changes spirit into spirit items would be weird, so how is assuming characters passively create spirit power items any more reasonable?

No. Fujiwara, I am not saying that "spirit power" is a physical item. I am saying the P items dropped by enemies are physical items.

Spirit power /=/ Power items. I will repeat, they are different things. The very manuals that you get the statements of the Power items differentiates Spirit Power and Spirit Power Items. You keep misunderstanding my point and we can't debate reasonably if I'm incapable of getting my point across to you.

Do you have any proof at all that Spirit Power and Spirit Power Items are the same? I am not trying to argue that Spirit Power is a physical item. I am trying to argue that the little P drops aren't literal Spirit Power, with them instead being items and charms used to supplement Spirit Power. To make my point, Spirit Power Items will be bolded and italicized, while Spirit Power will just be bolded.

If you prove to me that Spirit Power and Spirit Power Items are the same, then we can move onto the further aspects of the debate regarding this. But you have provided no evidence that the two are the same at all besides the similarity in their names.

So let me spell it out like a dictionary.

Spirit Power is a concept in the Touhou series, referred to as just Spirit sometimes. It functions as a power source that also represents the mind and soul. It is most commonly used as a resource pool to strengthen attacks.

Spirit Power Items are items that enemies drop when defeated. They are used by various characters to strengthen their attacks and boost the user's Spirit Power. They are also referred to as 'charms' and 'treasures' throughout the series.

If we go by this logic, then an enemy dropping a Spirit Power Item upon defeat does not equal them dropping their very literal Spirit Power in a sense. Unless you provide further evidence of that being the case. They are not the same, the two concepts are different.

Onto the main post...

First of all, the fighting games refer to the same meter, which works virtually identically across all games, as both spirit AND spirit power. So those are still undeniably one and the same, unless you somehow want to argue that there just so happen to be two completely identical power systems that do the exact same thing and just happen to be named slightly differently. I hope you can realize how wild of an assumption that is to make without evidence

Irrelevant to my point. This does nothing to prove that the Spirit Power Items dropped from enemies are the same as Spirit Power. You just proved that Spirit = Spirit Power, which is cool and all, but not relevant.

Furthermore, let me explain the concept of 'power spots', which are spots that increase your power. The power they provide is 100% identical to the power one gains in the games (since they're both measures of how powerful your danmaku is). And that power is stated to be the 'energy of nature', which applies to spirit power as well. Now, that's a pretty vague statement, but it does undeniably prove that spirit power items aren't physical in nature.

No it doesn't? A place that provides power where you go to, and an item that provides you with power are kind of similar, cool. Literally nowhere in this statement are the Spirit Power Items mentioned or even implied to be literal Spirit Power. This does absolutely nothing to
prove that they're one and the same.

You have no idea what game mechanics is. Game mechanics must be restricted to the game itself; If there exists an in-universe justification for why some video-gamey logic exists, we can't say it's game mechanics. This is especially true of Touhou, which has an in-universe justification for just about every game mechanic; Hell, that's where spell cards, one of the largest parts of Touhou lore, come from in the first place. Same goes for stuff like extra lives (literally just life-force), game-specific mechanics (weather in SWR, urban legends in ULiL, and perfect possession in AoCF all being game mechanics with lore explanations), and, of course, spirit power, which is confirmed to exist on two separate occasions by Sanae and Kanako (this is regardless of whether or not you buy them being souls).

A central mechanic changing from game to game isn't game mechanics. D&D is perhaps the clearest example of this, where the fundamental rules of how the entire game works is redone every so often, but the core idea of those mechanics remains intact; Saving throws and spell resistances change with time, but the fundamental things they represent do not, and they are thus usable as actual abilities and resistances on this wiki. The same is true of Touhou, where the verse tends to go back and forth on how spirit absorption/reduction is portrayed, but it always remains intact in some form.

It's not even game to game, it's literally in the exact same game this "spirit power draining" works differently depending on who you're fighting. In no way is "every single danmaku bullet causes your spirit to drain" a core mechanic at all. If the verse tends to go back and forth on how Spirit Absorption is portrayed, then maybe nailing it down to "it has to be on every attack" isn't a good idea at all?

Your interpretation of "every character soul drains on every attack" is in no way supported by the lore anyways. Nowhere in the lore is it stated that a fairy can drain Yukari's soul, mind, and power on every single attack because she drops Spirit Power Items on every attack in one specific game where she is the protagonist. If this mechanic isn't even consistent, how can we expect to use your interpretation of the highest end possible?

The point is that it was intended by ZUN to make it so the player/protagonists were responsible for the cycle of spirit power drops, not external factors. The rock is a contradiction to that, so it can't be used.

But I have to ask, what makes this game mechanics and not, y'know, a rock causing someone's soul to fall out with no explanation? Feels like a completely arbitrary distinction

If we want to go by ZUN's intentions, I can absolutely bet that he didn't intend for "every danmaku attack from every fairy sucks the soul of the enemy".

But that's besides the point. It's game mechanics because it literally doesn't represent anything at all. If the protagonist had any control over when the enemies drop power items, then they'd just do it. It absolutely does not make sense in game other than as a game mechanic. At least the rock can make sense under various interpretations.

Nah, hang on. Do you admit the rock feat is an outlier (in terms of AP/durability)? This is important because the interpretation of 'the rock causes them to drop spirit' relies on them getting hit by the rock in the first place. If the feat is an outlier, then we assume they didn't get hit by the rock, which means they never lost spirit, OR them losing spirit happened for reasons completely unrelated to the rock.

It's an issue of cause and effect, where you can't say the cause didn't happen but the effect did happen. If getting hit by the rock (cause) did not happen, then neither did the protagonists losing spirit (effect). Does that make sense?

Mori already responded to this. Yes it's an outlier in terms of AP and Durability. No, it doesn't mean that a feat did not happen at all. You have a very odd definition of outliers that I've never seen used on this site before.

The cause and effect both happened, we just decided that it isn't representative of the character's AP and durability. Extreme example to get the point across. If Superman beats a 1-A and forces him to retcon reality into a new multiverse or whatever, we don't just assume that the entire feat doesn't exist, just that it's not representative of his AP and durability.

These arguments are getting really circular.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Mori already responded to this. Yes it's an outlier in terms of AP and Durability. No, it doesn't mean that a feat did not happen at all. You have a very odd definition of outliers that I've never seen used on this site before.

The cause and effect both happened, we just decided that it isn't representative of the character's AP and durability. Extreme example to get the point across. If Superman beats a 1-A and forces him to retcon reality into a new multiverse or whatever, we don't just assume that the entire feat doesn't exist, just that it's not representative of his abilities.

These arguments are getting really circular.

I'm not really sure what's up with this particular point where a clearly massive outlier on all fronts (a character is hit by a rock in gameplay, dying as a result) and the consequences of that one attack are still being mentioned or used in an argument. Things such as this are typically ignored for a reason due to their massive inconsistency and not applying how they typically do in series. Is Sonic no longer The Fastest Thing Alive in series because Eggman outran him that one time in Sonic 2? or 3&K? Does Kratos' transmutation haxx not actually work because bosses are unaffected by it? When there's one, single, individual instance throughout an entire series of something acting incorrectly or not as it usually does, it's dismissed. I've never seen a character getting smacked in the face and dying to a literal rock ever be genuinely used as an attempt to downgrade any verse before. If we tried that in Dragon Ball over Goku screaming in pain like he got his damn arm broken from Krillin tossing a rock at him we'd be torn to shreds and laughed at.

Using the game mechanics argument doesn't even make sense here. What is the consequence of being hit in Touhou? Dying and dropping all your spirit power. What is the only method you can die in every other game in the series? Being hit by an enemy or their attacks. What is the one, single, example in franchise history in which this operates differently? Being smacked in the face by a rock in TH11. If this was something that consistently happened and also happened through other methods of non-enemy/magic/spellcard/danmaku based attacks and we see characters lose spirit in the process, I might believe what you're trying to put together here. As is, there is a single example.

This is like the textbook example of an outlier and the fact nothing like it ever happened or before in series history is telling.

If we want to go by ZUN's intentions, I can absolutely bet that he didn't intend for "every danmaku attack from every fairy sucks the soul of the enemy".

I'm sure he also didn't intend for the protagonists to literally die when slapped by a rock, and if he intended for the protags to drop spiritual power when hit by regular ass things, I'm sure we would've seen several more examples of it through the series.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

No. Fujiwara, I am not saying that "spirit power" is a physical item. I am saying the P items dropped by enemies are physical items.

Spirit power /=/ Power items. I will repeat, they are different things. The very manuals that you get the statements of the Power items differentiates Spirit Power and Spirit Power Items. You keep misunderstanding my point and we can't debate reasonably if I'm incapable of getting my point across to you.

Do you have any proof at all that Spirit Power and Spirit Power Items are the same? I am not trying to argue that Spirit Power is a physical item. I am trying to argue that the little P drops aren't literal Spirit Power, with them instead being items and charms used to supplement Spirit Power. To make my point, Spirit Power Items will be bolded and italicized, while Spirit Power will just be bolded.

If you prove to me that Spirit Power and Spirit Power Items are the same, then we can move onto the further aspects of the debate regarding this. But you have provided no evidence that the two are the same at all besides the similarity in their names.

This is actually incorrect. While the text does say item, the original Japanese text actually has two other translations, at least one of which makes significantly more sense. アイテム can not only be used to refer to physical items or products, but also just a necessary or desirable thing, OR an item... in a computer game. The 2nd and 3rd translations make it extremely unlikely that the manual is referring to spirit power items as literal, physical charms or whatever, and is contextually more likely referring to 'item' in the "this is something you can collect in a video game" given the text's appearance in a manual. It also qualifies as 'something necessary' due to its function in the game, which again does not imply these are literal physical items that just bestow spirit power (something which is never implied anyways and was always just a headcanon).

Also, let me make it clear that even if this were true, this still wouldn't disprove spirit manipulation. There is still the fact that spirit reduction triggers on attacks without the presence of spirit power items in the fighting games. Just your spirit bar, the representation of how much spirit is remaining, is reduced.

I will mention again that calling something a 'treasure' is meaningless, since literally anything of value can be considered a 'treasure'. I treasure my friendship with @Kirbonic_Pikmin, but that doesn't mean our friendship is a physical object I can beat you over the head with, right? Also, when we have Kanako directly stating that 'power ups' are 'the energy of nature', power up items being physical in nature seems extremely dubious.

It's not even game to game, it's literally in the exact same game this "spirit power draining" works differently depending on who you're fighting. In no way is "every single danmaku bullet causes your spirit to drain" a core mechanic at all. If the verse tends to go back and forth on how Spirit Absorption is portrayed, then maybe nailing it down to "it has to be on every attack" isn't a good idea at all?

You're missing the point. The utilization and manipulation of spirit is 100% consistent across the games. Nearly every game uses spirit as a resource or some equivalent of it, so yes, that part is objectively a core mechanic. The portrayal of that manipulation is what is inconsistent. I am using the 'all attacks reduce spirit' interpretation because that is what is most consistently shown across the series; It is present in the main STGs (protagonists lose spirit when hit), fighting games (all characters lose spirit when hit), and spinoffs (Cirno in GFW continually gains motivation/'ice power' when attacking enemies).

Your interpretation of "every character soul drains on every attack" is in no way supported by the lore anyways. Nowhere in the lore is it stated that a fairy can drain Yukari's soul, mind, and power on every single attack because she drops Spirit Power Items on every attack in one specific game where she is the protagonist. If this mechanic isn't even consistent, how can we expect to use your interpretation of the highest end possible?

Let me make this as simple as possible. The basis of these abilities is canonical. Spirit power is a canon energy source that characters utilize in combat and can absorb in combat. Spirit absorption is presented by many different characters in the lore.

Just because every ultra specific example of spirit absorption isn't given a lore explanation doesn't mean the basis of the ability is wrong. We just need a broad explanation of how an ability works, which we are given, and that ability is then assumed to work the same for everyone who uses it.

No it doesn't? A place that provides power where you go to, and an item that provides you with power are kind of similar, cool. Literally nowhere in this statement are the Spirit Power Items mentioned or even implied to be literal Spirit Power. This does absolutely nothing to
prove that they're one and the same.

They're.... literally the exact same power source. Kanako says that power spots grant a 'power up'. Marisa asks what that is, and Kanako replies that "it makes your danmaku heavier, doesn't it?". So it is very clearly the same power source people use to empower their danmaku, which is spirit power. Unless there are somehow more completely distinct power sources at play that just happen to function identically, which you have yet to prove.

Mori already responded to this. Yes it's an outlier in terms of AP and Durability. No, it doesn't mean that a feat did not happen at all. You have a very odd definition of outliers that I've never seen used on this site before.

The cause and effect both happened, we just decided that it isn't representative of the character's AP and durability. Extreme example to get the point across. If Superman beats a 1-A and forces him to retcon reality into a new multiverse or whatever, we don't just assume that the entire feat doesn't exist, just that it's not representative of his abilities.

These arguments are getting really circular.

Y'know what, @Kirbonic_Pikmin once again took the words out of my mouth. Maybe I should start paying him to take my place :v

If we want to go by ZUN's intentions, I can absolutely bet that he didn't intend for "every danmaku attack from every fairy sucks the soul of the enemy".

But that's besides the point. It's game mechanics because it literally doesn't represent anything at all. If the protagonist had any control over when the enemies drop power items, then they'd just do it. It absolutely does not make sense in game other than as a game mechanic. At least the rock can make sense under various interpretations.

That's... not the degree of control I said they had. I never claimed the scan said "they can make spirit power appear at will", it just said that the more enemies you defeat, the more spirit power appears. That's the level of 'control' they possess, overpowering enemies to take their spirit power and use it to empower themselves.

Under what interpretations does the rock make sense? MFTL+/High Universal characters getting tagged and harmed by a falling rock "makes sense" to you?

 

[Jinsye]

This is actually incorrect. While the text does say item, the original Japanese text actually has two other translations, at least one of which makes significantly more sense. アイテム can not only be used to refer to physical items or products, but also just a necessary or desirable thing, OR an item... in a computer game. The 2nd and 3rd translations make it extremely unlikely that the manual is referring to spirit power items as literal, physical charms or whatever, and is contextually more likely referring to 'item' in the "this is something you can collect in a video game" given the text's appearance in a manual. It also qualifies as 'something necessary' due to its function in the game, which again does not imply these are literal physical items that just bestow spirit power (something which is never implied anyways and was always just a headcanon).

I'll respond to this first and get to the rest later since this is by far the most pressing thing.

Do you even know Japanese? Not every word is Kanji where it can be dumb and have multiple meanings for the same symbol. アイテム literally just means 'item'. There's no fancy bullshit regarding definitions here, it literally just means item.

This is Katakana, not Kanji. Katakana is solely pronunciation based, and doesn't have anything to do with definitions at all. It's basically for words imported from other languages. Them saying アイテム is basically the same as them spelling "I-T-E-M". It isn't specifically locked to 'computer game item'.

Please don't argue about languages that you don't know anything about, and you've given me full credence to disregard every argument you make in regards to the Japanese language until you get a reliable translator.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'll respond to this first and get to the rest later since this is by far the most pressing thing.

Do you even know Japanese? Not every word is Kanji where it can be dumb and have multiple meanings for the same symbol. アイテム literally just means 'item'. There's no fancy bullshit regarding definitions here, it literally just means item.

This is Katakana, not Kanji. Katakana is solely pronunciation based, and doesn't have anything to do with definitions at all. It's basically for words imported from other languages. Them saying アイテム is basically the same as them spelling "I-T-E-M".

Please don't argue about languages that you don't know anything about, and you've given me full credence to disregard every argument you make in regards to the Japanese language until you get a reliable translator.

The definition of the word, whether it be written in Katakana, Hiragana, or Kanji, is still variable and dependent on context. The point of contention here is whether or not spirit power items are physical charms that characters carry around that simply boosts their spirit power. Using the definition of "an item in a video game", we cannot assume that the word 'item' confirms that spirit power items are physical items in canon. And given the context of this being written in a game manual, that definition is more than likely the correct one.

You're basically just saying you'll ignore evidence whenever you want, so please stop responding if you want anyone here to take you seriously. I find it particularly amusing that you want to pretend that arguing over translations is grounds to ignore someone's argument when you did exactly that for fear manipulation. In that case, do I have permission to disregard your points on fear manipulation and say it's fine to keep?

Btw, if we went with "only people who can proficiently speak Japanese are allowed to discuss Japanese translations" then this whole wiki falls apart. Maou Gakuin, for example, would have to be almost completely eradicated. Did you even consider the consequences of this statement before saying it?

 

[Moritzva]

Can we not say "cope harder" in an otherwise serious debate?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

It is very funny, tho, imo... On a more serious topic, what is the current status of this CRT? In a standstill, I presume?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Can we not say "cope harder" in an otherwise serious debate?

I think the notion of a 'serious debate' stopped being a thing when Jinsye implied that only Japanese people are allowed to use Japanese translations on this site. But sure, I'll delete that.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It is very funny, tho, imo... On a more serious topic, what is the current status of this CRT? In a standstill, I presume?

Standstill. I think Moritzva's earlier assessment combined with Mav's post today does at least mean some topics can be retired, like mid-godly, soul resistance, Doremy's stuff, and so on. If no other staff appear then Mav's assessment of spirit manip will probably need to be given precedence so we may be able to hopefully retire this topic soon.

 

[Moritzva]

I think the notion of a 'serious debate' stopped being a thing when Jinsye implied that only Japanese people are allowed to use Japanese translations on this site. But sure, I'll delete that.

Fujiwara, that wasn't implied at all. It was very clearly a statement that debating the meaning of Japanese statements should best be done by people proficient in the Japanese language, which your earlier reply appearing to not understand katakana made relevant.

Your point afterwards, in response to Jinsye's point, is perfectly reasonable as a counterargument, and deleting any additional snide comments would be appreciated (now and in the future). Just be polite, please.

 

[Moritzva]

Btw if we went with "only Japanese people are allowed to discuss Japanese translations" then this whole wiki falls apart. Maou Gakuin would have to be almost completely eradicated. Did you even consider the consequences of making such a ridiculous statement before saying it, or are you just desperately clutching to any hope of "debunking" me now that at least one staff member has taken our side?

Such as this, Fujiwara. Nothing of the sort was implied.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Fujiwara, that wasn't implied at all. It was very clearly a statement that debating the meaning of Japanese statements should best be done by people proficient in the Japanese language, which your earlier reply appearing to not understand katakana made relevant.

Your point afterwards, in response to Jinsye's point, is perfectly reasonable as a counterargument, and deleting any additional snide comments would be appreciated (now and in the future). Just be polite, please.

It's just not how we run this wiki. We have many people here who are not proficient in speaking English, often to the point of relying on google translate, yet we still give them a fair chance to speak their mind in regards to scans which use English text. I can point to many verses which rely on the interpretations of non-English text done by people who are not proficient in that language. Hell, the Maou Gakuin plot thread from like, yesterday, did exactly this, and I never once saw anyone bring up this potential "issue". Just a massive inconsistency all around, and all I'm seeing is an excuse to ignore evidence or possible alternate interpretations.

In any case, I can take a step back and wait for further responses. Given Mav was the only one willing to respond to the topic of spirit manipulation, and getting staff on a Touhou thread is like pulling teeth, I don't think this downgrade is likely to pass anyways.

 

[Moritzva]

It's just not how we run this wiki. We have many people here who are not proficient in speaking English, often to the point of relying on google translate, yet we still give them a fair chance to speak their mind in regards to scans which use English text. I can point to many verses which rely on the interpretations of non-English text done by people who are not proficient in that language. Hell, the Maou Gakuin plot thread from like, yesterday, did exactly this, and I never once saw anyone bring up this potential "issue". Just a massive inconsistency all around, and all I'm seeing is an excuse to ignore evidence or possible alternate interpretations.

In any case, I can take a step back and wait for further responses. Given Mav was the only one willing to respond to the topic of spirit manipulation, and getting staff on a Touhou thread is like pulling teeth, I don't think this downgrade is likely to pass anyways.

To be blunt, it's a very complicated matter and we have had an overwhelming amount of problems with people either intentionally or accidentally mistranslating matters. What Ed said, however, was not a call to ban all translations by non-Japanese people, as you put it. The point was that, because you seemingly misunderstood katakana, that basing your arguments on Japanese translations without a proficiency in translating it isn't the best idea. That's what I got from it, after all, and nothing about that implies ignoring evidence or anything similar.

I don't care who is right about this katakana/"item" matter, I just want to make it clear that you definitely overreacted on this point and jumped to a very harmfully negative perception of the argument. If you think someone is implying something so outlandish and egregious, simply ask them to clarify before attacking them about it. If they double down, then you're free to call them stupid, but oftentimes clarification is all it takes.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Even with the clarification, the implications are still bad. And if my translations are wrong or misrepresented, then just... prove that. No need to go "do you even speak Japanese?" and act like that's a gotcha.

I'll drop the topic for now, but I will keep bringing up the original Japanese text where it is relevant. And if Jinsye happens to have a problem with that, well, that's not my problem.

 

[Moritzva]

Even with the clarification, the implications are still bad. And if my translations are wrong or misrepresented, then just... prove that. No need to go "do you even speak Japanese?" and act like that's a gotcha.

I'll drop the topic for now, but I will keep bringing up the original Japanese text where it is relevant. And if Jinsye happens to have a problem with that, well, that's not my problem.

That is fine. Just be sure to reign it in a bit when responding to claims you find outrageous (and obviously make sure we have no more katakana misunderstandings, lol).

 

[Ningenron]

The definition of the word, whether it be written in Katakana, Hiragana, or Kanji, is still variable and dependent on context. The point of contention here is whether or not spirit power items are physical charms that characters carry around that simply boosts their spirit power. Using the definition of "an item in a video game", we cannot assume that the word 'item' confirms that spirit power items are physical items in canon. And given the context of this being written in a game manual, that definition is more than likely the correct one.

Such. Sheer. Dishonesty.

You don't get to dissociate whatever Katakana for all I care, as multiple interpretations/meaning when they only form one meaning, which is simply their pronunciation.

But, regardless, do you even know what Katakana is, though? It's not the same as Kanjis or/and Hiragana; which, while it's true that they can have different meanings depending on context (the only thing you've gotten right about Nihon thus far), it's not something you'd be able to figure out from cherry-picking dictionaries (as you've been doing based on what I've seen). Katakana is a completely different dialect, and it is mostly used for words imported from other languages, like, Foreign countries, foreign names, and things "borrowed" from foreign languages and so forth, since those foreign words must conform to this limited set of [consonants+vowel] sounds. However, it can also be used to highlight specific words in the same way that italics does. anyhow, does these words have a different meaning aside from their pronunciation now?

• ナチュラル/Natural (Romaji; Nachuraru)
• ハンマー/Hammer (Romaji; Hanmā)
• ロック・アンド・ロール/rock and roll (Romaji; rokku ando rooru)
• エクスキューズミー/excuse me (Romaji; ekusukyuuzumii)
• アイスクリーム/icecream (Romaji; aisukuriimu)
• ラ・ビュセル・ド・アンフィニ/La Pucelle D'Infini (Romaji; Ra Pyuseru do Anfini)

I can bring more stuff, but meh. in any case, anyway, I'd really like to see some sources that say Katakana have other meanings besides their pronunciation.

Btw, if we went with "only people who can proficiently speak Japanese are allowed to discuss Japanese translations" then this whole wiki falls apart. Maou Gakuin, for example, would have to be almost completely eradicated. Did you even consider the consequences of this statement before saying it?

Is that really a bad thing though?

Besides from that, I'm curious why you keep bringing Nihon when it's like completely unnecessary?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Such. Sheer. Dishonesty.

You don't get to dissociate whatever Katakana for all I care, as multiple interpretations/meaning when they only form one meaning, which is simply their pronunciation.

But, regardless, do you even know what Katakana is, though? It's not the same as Kanjis or/and Hiragana; which, while it's true that they can have different meanings depending on context (the only thing you've gotten right about Nihon thus far), it's not something you'd be able to figure out from cherry-picking dictionaries (as you've been doing based on what I've seen). Katakana is a completely different dialect, and it is mostly used for words imported from other languages, like, Foreign countries, foreign names, and things "borrowed" from foreign languages and so forth, since those foreign words must conform to this limited set of [consonants+vowel] sounds. However, it can also be used to highlight specific words in the same way that italics does. anyhow, does these words have a different meaning aside from their pronunciation now?

• ナチュラル/Natural (Romaji; Nachuraru)
• ハンマー/Hammer (Romaji; Hanmā)
• ロック・アンド・ロール/rock and roll (Romaji; rokku ando rooru)
• エクスキューズミー/excuse me (Romaji; ekusukyuuzumii)
• アイスクリーム/icecream (Romaji; aisukuriimu)
• ラ・ビュセル・ド・アンフィニ/La Pucelle D'Infini (Romaji; Ra Pyuseru do Anfini)

I can bring more stuff, but meh. in any case, anyway, I'd really like to see some sources that say Katakana have other meanings besides their pronunciation.

The fact that this applies to basically all words in all languages. It doesn't matter if a word is English, Latin, Italian, Japanese, or what have you, we still need to analyze the context to confirm that it means what a person says it means. Obviously that doesn't apply for some of the examples you gave, but for a word like 'item', it absolutely does apply.

When the context of this text being written in a game manual, it is more likely referring to it just being an 'item' in the context of the game, rather than a literal physical object in-universe like Jinsye is claiming. This is backed up by how a character confirms that the power ups are canonically the energy of nature, which would certainly imply being non-physical. All I'm doing here is using a definition that contextually makes more sense and is supported by canonical information, so I would appreciate it if you dropped the "Such. Sheer. Dishonesty" act.

Is that really a bad thing though?

Besides from that, I'm curious why you keep bringing Nihon when it's like completely unnecessary?

Look I dislike MG as much as the next guy but it does have a right to be on the wiki.

I keep bringing up the original text because it can give context and meaning to things not present in the translation. For Touhou in particular, it is a series built on fan translations, so it is often necessary to re-evaluate certain translations. An example of this is a feat where a character supposedly destroyed Heaven, but upon examination of the original text, it turned out that what they destroyed was in fact the 'canopy of the heavens', making the feat invalid. It is situations like that that makes bringing up Japanese a necessity, especially for this verse (even moreso when you consider the verse has a lot of untranslated material).

Better question though, why don't you ask the same thing to Jinsye since they were also talking about translations not too long ago?

 

[Ningenron]

The fact that this applies to basically all words in all languages. It doesn't matter if a word is English, Latin, Italian, Japanese, or what have you, we still need to analyze the context to confirm that it means what a person says it means.

So, in other words, you got no sources aside from your own words, meh.

Obviously that doesn't apply for some of the examples you gave, but for a word like 'item', it absolutely does apply.

If it has another meaning in-verse, is not really my problem, nor do I care much about it; I'm only here to comment on your amusing notion of Katakana having different meanings apart from their pronunciation, which is, objectively incorrect for anyone with a passing knowledge of Nihon whatsoever.

I keep bringing up the original text because it can give context and meaning to things not present in the translation. For Touhou in particular, it is a series built on fan translations, so it is often necessary to re-evaluate certain translations. An example of this is a feat where a character supposedly destroyed Heaven, but upon examination of the original text, it turned out that what they destroyed was in fact the 'canopy of the heavens', making the feat invalid. It is situations like that that makes bringing up Japanese a necessity, especially for this verse (even moreso when you consider the verse has a lot of untranslated material).

Better question though, why don't you ask the same thing to Jinsye since they were also talking about translations not too long ago?

Tldr.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

So, in other words, you got no sources aside from your own words, meh.

...That's not really something you need a source for. It's just common knowledge that words can mean different things depending on how you use them.

Anyways if all you came here for is reigniting an issue that was already resolved, then please leave. Especially if you're going to ask me a question and go "tl;dr" when I answer your question.