Touhou General Revisions (Tier 2 Removal, Hax Revisions)

[Moritzva]

For the same reasons I said "cope harder" is not a response to be inserted into a serious debate, responding with "tl:dr?" is also not a proper response. Let's not, please.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

I'm not sure why it's not possible to just say "This is wrong. Here's why." It has to be a dramatic "Such. Sheer. Dishonesty" or having constant minor digs at any point possible. Just call me wrong, say it's stupid if you want, disagree and move on, but why do people have to take such self-aggrandizing positions, it's almost like actively poking to have people snap back.

Not saying both sides aren't guilty but I'm just sick of seeing it.

 

[Jinsye]

Not a general response but more of a request for Fujiwara to resummarize her argument as to why she thinks "every danmaku bullet should drain Spirit Power" should be okay. I've wrangled down @Armorchompy who might hopefully respond if we do so. I'm not really going to change my arguments much, just restate them. Maybe @Maverick_Zero_X can restate their opinion too since they weren't certain.

As for me

1. We currently treat the little P items that drop from enemies as literally their souls/Spirit Power being sucked out. However, it is my belief that it isn't their literal souls. This is due to the fact that they are consistently referred to as 'power items' throughout the series and also as charms at one point. They also simply look like paper charms as well. As far as I can tell, the defense has provided no evidence that link "Spirit Power" and "Spirit Power Items" being the same. The counterargument seems to be that spirit can take on any shape, so it can look like whatever. But there is a lack of proof that connects the two.

2. This is my one new argument, according to someone who knows Japanese, the translation for this text isn't even correct. I don't really want to get too hard into this debate as Japanese is not a language I am familiar with, but the items that drop from enemies aren't even called "Spirit Power Items" (spiritual power and spirit power are basically interchangable), they are called Spirit Power Up Items. The "up" implies that it acts as a booster to the already existing resource of Spirit Power instead of actually being literal spirit. Thus acting as good supporting evidence that the two concepts are different.

3. The mechanics for this Spirit Draining ability are hardly consistent. The defense themselves has proven 5 different mechanics for the spirit drain to happen.
In the shoot 'em up games:
If you're the protagonist then these P items (assumed to be souls) drop whenever you get hit by any enemy.
If you're a normal enemy, then these P items (assumed to be souls) drop whenever you get "defeated".
If you're a boss, then these P items (assumed to be your soul) will drop whenever the game feels like it at random intervals.

In the fighting games:
Your 'spirit power resource bar' goes down when somebody hits your shield with a projectile (note: It does not go down when you get hit normally like in the games).
Your 'spirit power resource bar' goes down when you almost get hit by certain projectiles but don't. (note: It does not go down when you get hit normally like in the games).

If the mechanics are so inconsistent, why are we trying to jam one specific mechanic (every projectile will suck your soul on every hit) onto it?

4. Back to the power items thing. There just is a lack of evidence to prove that the items that drop from enemies and the concept of "spirit power"/souls are the same thing. The most evidence that has been presented to me is that their names are similar and a vague "the power-ups you get from this shrine are the energy of nature".

On the latter, it doesn't even prove that 'spirit power' and 'spirit power up items' are the same thing. The fact that both boosts your danmaku means they provide a similar power-up but that's as far as it goes. Nothing in the above text says or even implies that "red item with P on it" is literally an "energy of nature". You could very easily say that they are items that provide the "energy of nature" or "power-ups", not that they are literally the metaphysical energy of nature themselves. In general, I think most of the oppositions explanations have no strong evidence backing them to overturn Occam's Razor. Occam's Razor dictates that they are called charms/items, look like charms/items, thus they must be charms/items.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

1. We currently treat the little P items that drop from enemies as literally their souls/Spirit Power being sucked out. However, it is my belief that it isn't their literal souls. This is due to the fact that they are consistently referred to as 'power items' throughout the series and also as charms at one point. They also simply look like paper charms as well. As far as I can tell, the defense has provided no evidence that link "Spirit Power" and "Spirit Power Items" being the same. The counterargument seems to be that spirit can take on any shape, so it can look like whatever. But there is a lack of proof that connects the two.

First of all, an item's visual resemblance to a physical item doesn't mean it is literally a physical item. That's just how it is represented in-game, similarly to how extra lives look physical in-game but are canonically someone's life force. Secondly, something being called an item or treasure does not inherently mean it is physical. Most dictionaries define item along the lines of "a distinct part in an enumeration, account, or series" or "an object of attention, concern, or interest", which could still apply to virtually anything (yes, even abstract energy or arbitrary increases in power). Finally, we know for a fact that 'power ups' in Touhou are literal energy. In this scene, a 'power up' is stated to be the same power that increases the potency of your danmaku (which is spirit power, of course) and is simultaneously said to be the energy of nature. Thus, power ups are the energy of nature, which applies to these 'spirit power items'.

It is also important to note that the mentions of spirit power items is limited to the game manuals, where the context of the word item could just be using the word item in the context of "something you collect in a video game"; This means we should give the lore precedent here, and since the lore says power ups are non-physical energy, that is the interpretation we should use.

2. This is my one new argument, according to someone who knows Japanese, the translation for this text isn't even correct. I don't really want to get too hard into this debate as Japanese is not a language I am familiar with, but the items that drop from enemies aren't even called "Spirit Power Items" (spiritual power and spirit power are basically interchangable), they are called Spirit Power Up Items. The "up" implies that it acts as a booster to the already existing resource of Spirit Power instead of actually being literal spirit. Thus acting as good supporting evidence that the two concepts are different.

This is explained above, where we have canonical mentions of how power ups are not physical items

And yet again, contextually, 'item' could just mean "something you acquire in a video game" and not a literal, canonical physical item the characters hold in their hand.

3. The mechanics for this Spirit Draining ability are hardly consistent. The defense themselves has proven 5 different mechanics for the spirit drain to happen.
In the shoot 'em up games:
If you're the protagonist then these P items (assumed to be souls) drop whenever you get hit by any enemy.
If you're a normal enemy, then these P items (assumed to be souls) drop whenever you get "defeated".
If you're a boss, then these P items (assumed to be your soul) will drop whenever the game feels like it at random intervals.

In the fighting games:
Your 'spirit power resource bar' goes down when somebody hits your shield with a projectile (note: It does not go down when you get hit normally like in the games).
Your 'spirit power resource bar' goes down when you almost get hit by certain projectiles but don't. (note: It does not go down when you get hit normally like in the games).

If the mechanics are so inconsistent, why are we trying to jam one specific mechanic (every projectile will suck your soul on every hit) onto it?

First of all, the intervals aren't random. It's after you attack the opponent enough that they drop spirit power.

Also, your spirit power does actually decrease on normal hits in the fighting games, specifically AoCF. The occult meter gets drained on every hit, regardless of whether you're blocking or not. We know that the occult meter is essentially the same power source as spirit because 1. there's no other equivalent to spirit in the game (the traditional meter system is replaced with 'mana'), 2. it's shared between characters, which in canon is explained by how characters in perfect possession share their spirit, 3. is the result of the power possessed by the occult balls, which gained their power from power spots, which as explained earlier provide the same power source that characters use to empower their danmaku (spirit power), and 4. occult balls literally have spiritual energy embedded in them. Not to mention, the occult meter works basically the same as spirit in previous games, with how it reduces on block or on hit.

More importantly, I chose the interpretation of 'every hit drains spirit' because, in spite of the inconsistent portrayal of how it works, that interpretation is the most consistent, being present in all STGs, fighting games, and a couple spinoffs in at least one form or another. Any other interpretation I could've picked would've been completely arbitrary and even less consistent.

4. Back to the power items thing. There just is a lack of evidence to prove that the items that drop from enemies and the concept of "spirit power"/souls are the same thing. The most evidence that has been presented to me is that their names are similar and a vague "the power-ups you get from this shrine are the energy of nature".

On the latter, it doesn't even prove that 'spirit power' and 'spirit power up items' are the same thing. The fact that both boosts your danmaku means they provide a similar power-up but that's as far as it goes. Nothing in the above text says or even implies that "red item with P on it" is literally an "energy of nature". You could very easily say that they are items that provide the "energy of nature" or "power-ups", not that they are literally the metaphysical energy of nature themselves. In general, I think most of the oppositions explanations have no strong evidence backing them to overturn Occam's Razor. Occam's Razor dictates that they are called charms/items, look like charms/items, thus they must be charms/items.

Again, you're assuming that the visual representation of spirit power in the games is literally what it looks like in canon, which is wrong. By that logic I could say that everybody's life force is literally a floating little heart, or that everybody gets erased from existence when they're beaten, because that is the visual information the game conveys.

There has only been one dedicated 'power up' item in Touhou's history. So when Kanako is explaining how a power up is the energy of nature, we assume that she is talking about the single thing that has been referred to in that way in the past, unless you want to tell me that there is another power up item that has never been seen or mentioned previously that just so happens to work identically to spirit power items, and that's what Kanako was referring to. Bit of an odd assumption from someone using Occam's Razor, don't you think?

That last bit is just ignoring so much context. First of all, something being an item or charm does not prevent it from being other things, especially since those words have very broad definitions that can apply to almost anything. Yes, a soul can also be considered an item; No definition of the word 'item' I found mandates that they must be physical. You are picking extremely specific definitions of these words and assuming they are automatically a debunk, when they have multiple valid interpretations in this circumstance; Yet you want to ignore those possibilities in favor of your own definitions, without explaining why your definitions are superior.

 

[Armorchompy]

From what's being discussed here I'm not convinced the spirit power stuff is actually soul manipulation, if something's referred to as a charm then it's pretty hard to argue that's a metaphorical way to refer to one's soul, and no real evidence that the lil P-things are not objects was presented in my opinion, just things that may hint they are not, which isn't enough to counter Ed's more straight-forward proof, in my opinion, especially given what the current assumption results in power-wise.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

From what's being discussed here I'm not convinced the spirit power stuff is actually soul manipulation, if something's referred to as a charm then it's pretty hard to argue that's a metaphorical way to refer to one's soul, and no real evidence that the lil P-things are not objects was presented in my opinion, just things that may hint they are not, which isn't enough to counter Ed's more straight-forward proof, in my opinion, especially given what the current assumption results in power-wise.

It's not really hinted, they're straight up confirmed to be the energy of nature. Jinsye hasn't really provided any evidence beyond assuming that the character in question was mentioning some never-before-seen power source.

At worst you could say that and the charm statement cancel each other out.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Oh yeah, I still haven't gotten an answer to this: If spirit power is something granted through charms, then how can characters naturally regenerate it?

 

[Armorchompy]

Even if they did only cancel each other out I'd be in favor of going with the option that doesn't give insane hax to the whole verse primarily based off gameplay. But like, I really don't think the consistency you're arguing for is very tangible.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Wouldn't the option primarily based off gameplay that presents itself relatively consistently in a verse that's comprised of mostly video games that also has supporting evidence from supplemental media be the more consistent and understandable option, though?

 

[Armorchompy]

No, given the lore is still held above gameplay in terms of validity, and that even the mechanic in gameplay itself isn't consistent among different games.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah but... the lore still presents power up items as non-physical energy. So why are we not giving that lore any sort of validity?

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

No, given the lore is still held above gameplay in terms of validity, and that even the mechanic in gameplay itself isn't consistent among different games.

The lore still generally backs up these power-ups being non-physical or spiritual energy in nature, though? There's like, two examples of them being called "items" or "charms" and Fuji's gone over the fact that doesn't necessitate them being physical. It also doesn't explain how characters can just regenerate this at will. If it was a collection of physical items how would they do that? It'd require a lot of confusing explanations that's more assumption work than what's currently presented.

The mechanic really isn't ridiculously inconsistent at all, though? There's only ever minor variations in how the function operates. In the floater fighters, games you drop spirit when hit, and when blocking, dropping more when hit directly and less when blocking. In the mainline bullethells its dropped upon being hit, enemies drop it upon defeat & bosses in between attack phases & on defeat.

If we wanted to be picky and split hairs the obvious gameplay reason they don't drop spirit on every connect of a basic shot in specific games is so you dont have an infinite stream of power coming to your character for every hit landed.

Even if the argument of them not soulhaxxing on every individual hit was to be agreed upon, there'd still be an undeniable, gradual effect on spirit as the attacks land. It'd be an argument of, in the bullethells, the soulhaxxing is gradual after a couple seconds of damage, while in the fighters its on every single attack.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

1. We currently treat the little P items that drop from enemies as literally their souls/Spirit Power being sucked out. However, it is my belief that it isn't their literal souls. This is due to the fact that they are consistently referred to as 'power items' throughout the series and also as charms at one point. They also simply look like paper charms as well. As far as I can tell, the defense has provided no evidence that link "Spirit Power" and "Spirit Power Items" being the same. The counterargument seems to be that spirit can take on any shape, so it can look like whatever. But there is a lack of proof that connects the two.

I think these points make sense.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Could you read my response to that point? There's no indication that these are physical items, they're literally called energy in-canon. I don't know how that keeps getting ignored.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Actually, I wanna point out that Touhou games referring to literal souls or other non-physical energy sources as 'items' is not uncommon. This happens in WBaWC, where the beast spirits you pick up (which are, y'know... spirits) are referred to as items. In Ten Desires, you pick up small divine spirits, which are again referred to as items. These are just from the manuals themselves, and I'm currently digging for examples from other sources.

EDIT: Almost forgot about lives, which are clearly 'items' in the context of the games, but are canonically somebody's life force, or according to ZUN, 'guts' (like determination, not straight up gore).

Basically, there's no reason to assume spirit power 'items' are exempt from this rule; We have in-universe confirmation that power ups are non-physical energy, and them being called 'items' is just part of a weird bit of wording that is shared across the games.

This also solves the problem of proving that spirit power items = spirit power in general, since that's how it works for every other example given here (divine spirit 'items' = divine spirits, beast spirit 'items' = beast spirits).

 

[Zencha9]

yea i can see the items being spirit items but i don't understand how it suddenly makes every attack a touhou character does drain your AP/Stamina/Mind/Soul

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

yea i can see the items being spirit items but i don't understand how it suddenly makes every attack a touhou character does drain your AP/Stamina/Mind/Soul

Read the Spirit Manipulation page to understand why Spirit is a direct accumulation/representation of AP/Stamina/Mind/Soul.

The debate is currently on if every attack results in Spirit draining. There's several examples in the series of Touhou characters attacking each other and draining spirit off of single attacks, and examples in the bullet hells of attacking each other and draining spirit gradually. These attacks do affect Spirit which then affects the aforementioned aspects, we're just splitting hairs on if its off of every attack or a gradual effect it seems?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Oh hey since Jinsye seems unconvinced that spirit power drops on every hit...

What exactly do these scans indicate, then?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Fujiwara, you have not proven anything. The statement regarding Power Spots is very bad for several reasons. The most important part about it is that a vague "power up" from natural energies in specific places is not "the exact same" as itemized power-ups obtained through defeating any enemy. Not all "power-ups" are the same. Even though their effect might be considered similar, their source and how they're obtained are very distinct. This is at best a huge stretch, but generally, there is really no reason to assume these two are the exact same.

Moreover, I think it's fair to say that "Power Spots" do not actually exist or work the way they're stated to. If you look at the context of the scene, Kanako describes what humans in the ouside world think. But, according to her, these kind of holy spots only work through belief. And since outside world humans do not believe in gods or hermits, these power spots cannot work. She specifically brushes them off as malarkey when describing their supposed effect (and Kanako is a goddess, she is not saying this because she doesn't understand them, but because she's simply explaining the fake belief of humans). So Kanako describing these spots as "power-ups" isn't referring to actual Power Items, but the general conception of what a power-up is in the outside world. And Miko simply jokes that power-ups are the kind of thing that makes your danmaku stronger. And finally, the fact that Marisa isn't even aware of what a "power-up" is would imply that, at the very least, P Items are not called "power-ups" in-universe and thus Miko calling this kind of energy a "power-up" absolutely doesn't mean she says they're the same as P-Items.

tl;dr stuff power-up danmaku doesn't have to be the exact same thing, power spots are likely not even real and if they're real, they do not refer to the same thing as P Items.


With that out of the way, the only statements that acknowledge Power Items in-universe as opposed to in a manual are Larva's profile and Sanae's statement. The former specifically calls them "items" and things Larva simply takes in her hands. And yes I know "items can be used to refer to anything" but this isn't a manual. This is a lore tidbit. If Power Items were truly abstract energy, they wouldn't be called "items" or be stated to be held by people. You can't both say that P Items are formless "energies of nature" yet also things one can carry

And the Sanae one just straight-up damages your entire theory. Unlike what you say, something cannot be a "charm" and be shapeless magical energy. Charm is defined as either "A magical incantation", "A physical object that brings good fortune", "An attractive trait", "A small object worn" or "literally a quark". 3 and 5 obviously don't apply, and 1 doesn't either. A magical incantation is not something you can physically carry or that can be mistaken as a treasure. It's not even spiritual energy either. So it can only be a good fortune object or something to be worn. Both of which are very much physical objects and not vague energy you can absorb. So yes, Sanae calling them charms very much rebuke your idea of P Items being raw, non-corporeal energy.

And you have no reasons to deny these as just fourth wall reference or the in-game appearance as game mechanics, since your initial evidence isn't enough to claim they're non-corporeal in the first place. But if you do want to ignore the two above, then you have no reasons to say P-Items are canon. A vague mention of "power-ups" as a joke wouldn't be enough to claim P-Items are canon. So either they don't exist, or they're physical items.



Regarding the Occult Bar thing I have no idea what the hell you're on about. The Occult Bar existed in ULiL, before Perfect Possession was a thing. It's not inherently connected to it. And in ULiL, the bar is filled by being near the Occult Balls. You can only deplete it by hitting the Occult Balls out of the opponent when they're using it. It's not hax (or even if it is, it is very circumstantial). And there is a similar-ish bar in AoCF, but it still doesn't give the characters the ability to steal any Spirit. You can gain some bar by hitting the opponent, but their bar isn't gonna get reduced due to it. You're not absorbing anything, it's just a generic super meter building-up mechanic.

Regardless, assuming the Occult Bar is the logical successor to the Spirit Bar in earlier game is silly. "Getting hit reduces your Spirit" is not an actual mechanic in neither the Occult Bar of Floater Fighters nor the Spirit Bar in Grounder Fighters (Where you only lose Spirit when your shield is hit). And the Mana bar otherwise works much more closely to the Spirit Bar, being a simple mana pool for your danmaku that regenerates after being lost.

And your new scan you just posted isn't much more valid either. "Non-focused shots drop P Items" is just game mechanics that are inconsistent with most other shooters. And using the highest ends shown in gameplay instead of admitting that the mechanics are too inconsistent to rate 100% according to gameplay is silly.

tl;dr 2: your only true statement is not applicable to P Items and probably doesn't describe actual lore elements. The Occult Meter doesn't qualify for your hax. And due to this, the only remaining statements are either neutral or describe P Items as physical objects.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Lol what the hell happened. What's being debated rn?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

tl;dr the profiles currently imply that characters dropping Power Items (items that increase the power of your danmaku) is the characters soulhaxxing other people in order to absorb their spirit energy. I think that's dumb because that's just a weakness of the characters and because Power Items are either non-canon or they're just physical items, not raw spiritual energy like Fujiwara argues.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

I guess I'd just like to sum up somewhat comprehensively what the arguments against what Jinseye's spirit downgrade, for anybody new that joins for for any mods continuing to evaluate.

Before starting, no, the concept of Spirit existing and Spirit representing AP/Stamina/Mind/Soul isn't up for debate, it does and there's significant amounts of evidence for it's existence, listed on the Spirit Manipulation page.

"The P Tokens / Power Items are physical tokens/charms and are not representations of spirit, and are just items that increase your spirit when collected."

There's a lot going into this, but for one, these tokens have been referred to as "items" several times, and were one time referred to as charms, as well as the fact that they "look like paper charms". That's most of what goes into this argument. To pull it apart, several times within the franchise, non-physical and spiritual entities such as literal Beast Spirits and Divine Spirits, which you collect in the exact same manner as the P Tokens/Power Items, are called "items". Despite the fact that the Beast Spirits and Divine Spirits are very visibly and lore wise spiritual entities being LITERAL spirits that possess all the attributes of a spirit. Fujiwara also makes a point above about Extra Lives being referred to as "items" as well, despite also being called referred to as genuine life force, which is referred to as "guts" in the determination sense. Considering how many other collectibles in the series are literally non-physical or spiritual entities referred to as "items", and the definition of the word "item" doesn't even require the item be a physical good, there's no reason to assume these are physical charms.

There's also the aforementioned power spots, which are described to function in a very similar way as picking up P Tokens/Power Items, increasing the power of your danmaku. Power Spots are a place where the power of nature can flow into you, which also applies to Spirit Power. Power Spots are directly responsible for the Occult Balls being created & as powerful as they are, with them being bundles of spiritual energy and can literally provide other characters with more spirit. These are locations of non-physical energy that have the exact same effects as the similarly non-physical P Tokens/Power Items.

The assumption they exist as physical charms also does not explain the character's ability to naturally regenerate spirit. If they gain spirit through the collection of these physical charms, how are they able to just, passively generate more of these physical charms? This would assume every character who utilizes Spirit also has the ability to create and manifest physical charms at will, which they then use to increase their own power, which are then knocked out of them and collected by their opponent to increase their power instead. This just simply doesn't add up or make logistical sense, and this solution causes more problems then it solves, especially when compared to these P Tokens/Power Items just being representations of the characters' spirit, and it being absorbed to increase their own power.

There are both in lore and in gameplay examples of P Tokens/Power Items representing spirit, their absorption/collection increasing spirit, spirit being reduced & absorbed on attack, this is generally pretty solid and consistent.

"The details and effects of reducing & absorbing sprit are inconsistent."

To put it simply, they really aren't. At worst, they vary slightly in their execution depending on the game. No matter what though, the main result is:

Enemy is damaged by danmaku -> Spirit is dropped.

This part is utterly consistent and undeniable, even if it should be deemed that every single attack does not reduce spirit, attacking in general would still result in spirit reduction and drain over-time, meaning the effects of this ability on attacks would still remain regardless. This argument essentially hinges over if Spirit Manip is performed on EVERY single individual attack. To discuss the intricacies of these inconsistency complaints:

In most of the bullethell games, the player drops spirit upon being hit. Enemies drop spirit upon being killed. Bosses drop spirit gradually as they're damaged overtime, dropping massive chunks of spirit at the end of spellcards.

In 7.5, 10.5, and 12.3, a set of three grounder fighting games, Spirit is drained when their shield is damaged, meaning spirit drain can still happen even when attacks are blocked.

In 13.5, 14.5, and 15.5, the set of three floater fighting games, Spirit is drained when hit, or when their shield is damaged, meaning spirit is still drained even on block. 15.5 also specifically has the Occult Meter reduced when attacked, which is notable as both fighters utilizing Perfect Possession merge and share their spirit

Also, as Fujiwara just found, within Touhou 14, Spirit IS drained on every single hit as well:

Oh hey since Jinsye seems unconvinced that spirit power drops on every hit...

What exactly do these scans indicate, then?

That gives several instances across the fighting games of spirit being drained on every attack, and spirit being drained on block, alongside instances of gradual spirit reduction with the bosses in the bullethells.

Regardless of if you want to believe EVERY HIT soulhaxxes, the end result of being hit with danmaku for a short time is the loss of spirit, meaning that even if we remove the soulhaxx on EVERY hit, it would be a gradual effect regardless.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Fujiwara, you have not proven anything. The statement regarding Power Spots is very bad for several reasons. The most important part about it is that a vague "power up" from natural energies in specific places is not "the exact same" as itemized power-ups obtained through defeating any enemy. Not all "power-ups" are the same. Even though their effect might be considered similar, their source and how they're obtained are very distinct. This is at best a huge stretch, but generally, there is really no reason to assume these two are the exact same.

If two things are named the same thing and do the same thing, we assume they are the same thing unless we have evidence to the contrary. Can you please provide evidence as to why two things that are treated as the same should be differentiated?

Moreover, I think it's fair to say that "Power Spots" do not actually exist or work the way they're stated to. If you look at the context of the scene, Kanako describes what humans in the ouside world think. But, according to her, these kind of holy spots only work through belief. And since outside world humans do not believe in gods or hermits, these power spots cannot work. She specifically brushes them off as malarkey when describing their supposed effect (and Kanako is a goddess, she is not saying this because she doesn't understand them, but because she's simply explaining the fake belief of humans). So Kanako describing these spots as "power-ups" isn't referring to actual Power Items, but the general conception of what a power-up is in the outside world. And Miko simply jokes that power-ups are the kind of thing that makes your danmaku stronger. And finally, the fact that Marisa isn't even aware of what a "power-up" is would imply that, at the very least, P Items are not called "power-ups" in-universe and thus Miko calling this kind of energy a "power-up" absolutely doesn't mean she says they're the same as P-Items.

That is not what Kanako said at all. First of all, "or some malarkey" is just a turn of phrase, it doesn't imply she doesn't believe they work. It's like tacking on "or something like that" at the end of your sentence, it doesn't mean you don't believe what you're saying is true. Secondly, a power spot's reliance on faith is irrelevant. Yes, it requires faith to bestow power, but that requirement does not change the nature of the power bestowed. Marisa's lack of awareness can be simply attributed to how these items are more frequently called spirit power; That ultimately doesn't change how Kanako's statement equalizes power spot power and spirit power. But acting like Kanako was saying that power spots are bullshit is just... completely wrong. She affirms that they work multiple times in that passage by saying that you really can gain power equal to a hermit from them, and that you gain mystic power if your faith is strong. Neither of these are presented as fallacious human beliefs, this is solely what Kanako herself believes to be true about power spots.

tl;dr stuff power-up danmaku doesn't have to be the exact same thing, power spots are likely not even real and if they're real, they do not refer to the same thing as P Items.

"Power spots are not real".

They are literally the canonical explanation for how most of the Occult Balls came to exist. Not only are they real, but their existence is a primary plot point of two separate games. Like, I seriously hope this is a joke, this is pretty much on par with "Suika never mind controlled anyone" in terms of bad faith arguments on this site.

With that out of the way, the only statements that acknowledge Power Items in-universe as opposed to in a manual are Larva's profile and Sanae's statement. The former specifically calls them "items" and things Larva simply takes in her hands. And yes I know "items can be used to refer to anything" but this isn't a manual. This is a lore tidbit. If Power Items were truly abstract energy, they wouldn't be called "items" or be stated to be held by people. You can't both say that P Items are formless "energies of nature" yet also things one can carry

May I once again remind you that divine spirits, beast spirits, and people's life force have also been referred to as items, and I would certainly hope you would agree that those are incorporeal. Something being called an 'item' is not a disqualifying factor in any form, since we know non-physical things have been referred to as items very consistently. Which means we have to turn to other possibilities, like how spirit power items are literal spirit power (supported by how 'divine spirit items' are literal divine spirits and 'beast spirit items' are literal beast spirits), or Kanako's nature energy statement.

Also, this is a verse where characters regularly interact with shit like phantoms, divine spirits, and non-existent entities. A character with NPI carrying formless energy is just... an extension of their NPI, not an anti-feat for incorporeality.

And the Sanae one just straight-up damages your entire theory. Unlike what you say, something cannot be a "charm" and be shapeless magical energy. Charm is defined as either "A magical incantation", "A physical object that brings good fortune", "An attractive trait", "A small object worn" or "literally a quark". 3 and 5 obviously don't apply, and 1 doesn't either. A magical incantation is not something you can physically carry or that can be mistaken as a treasure. It's not even spiritual energy either. So it can only be a good fortune object or something to be worn. Both of which are very much physical objects and not vague energy you can absorb. So yes, Sanae calling them charms very much rebuke your idea of P Items being raw, non-corporeal energy.

So you're taking a contradiction and arbitrarily picking the lowest possible interpretation? Fascinating. Why does Sanae's statement have more weight than Kanako's statement? Hell, Sanae's statement heavily contradicts how spirit works in several ways; Spirit is naturally regenerated, and you can't 'regenerate' artificial charms that you just carry on your person. Spirit is emotions, which makes it odd that a charm would... increase emotions? Finally, how is it that characters who would have no access to these supposed 'charms' drop them when defeated? Raiko only shows up in Gensokyo for a few minutes before you fight her, and was in the outside world prior to that, so where did the charms come from? The Tsukumo sisters were created the same day as you fight them, yet within a matter of minutes they know what these charms are, where to find them, and have collected dozens of them? Aunn was an inanimate stone statue prior to the events of HSiFS, but she apparently has plenty of 'charms' on her from the moment she comes to life. Sumireko knows **** all about Gensokyo and needs to be spoonfed basic information about the place, but I guess she just magically knows what spirit power charms are and where to get them according to you. All of these contradictions disappear if you accept that 'spirit power items' are just referring to someone's own metaphysical energy, which is damaged and absorbed in combat.

And all of this conveniently ignores the fighting games, where spirit power items never show up but characters still lose spirit when hit. So even if we took these statements at face value and ignored all the contradictions present, spirit reduction would still be a thing.

And you have no reasons to deny these as just fourth wall reference or the in-game appearance as game mechanics, since your initial evidence isn't enough to claim they're non-corporeal in the first place. But if you do want to ignore the two above, then you have no reasons to say P-Items are canon. A vague mention of "power-ups" as a joke wouldn't be enough to claim P-Items are canon. So either they don't exist, or they're physical items.

SCARLET WEATHER RHAPSODY DOES NOT EXIST. ZUN AND TWILIGHT FRONTIER HAVE BEEN LEADING US ON, THEY ARE A COVEN OF LIARS.

Spirit has been confirmed to be an in-universe energy source like... **** man, I've lost count. Several dozen at the very least. An entire game was dedicated to explaining what spirit is in-universe. The in-universe mentions of spirit power or spiritual energy or what have you are in so many more things than what the spirit manipulation page implies. I just... cannot fathom how you came to the conclusion that spirit power is non-canon.

You seem to be under the impression that, if something is represented in gameplay, then it is automatically game mechanics. I could say that the passive forcefield creation ULiL/AoCF characters have is gameplay mechanics, or that Aya erasing bullets is gameplay mechanics, or Seija's items are gameplay mechanics, or any number of accepted abilities shown in Touhou's gameplay (at least one of which probably came from you, ironically) are unusable. But that's now how we quantify game mechanics; Spirit is objectively canon, and the games present a window into how spirit factors into fights and how it is generally used. That's it.

Regarding the Occult Bar thing I have no idea what the hell you're on about. The Occult Bar existed in ULiL, before Perfect Possession was a thing. It's not inherently connected to it. And in ULiL, the bar is filled by being near the Occult Balls. You can only deplete it by hitting the Occult Balls out of the opponent when they're using it. It's not hax (or even if it is, it is very circumstantial). And there is a similar-ish bar in AoCF, but it still doesn't give the characters the ability to steal any Spirit. You can gain some bar by hitting the opponent, but their bar isn't gonna get reduced due to it. You're not absorbing anything, it's just a generic super meter building-up mechanic.

They're actually two completely different things. The meter in ULiL was the number of Occult Balls you had. The meter in AoCF is the amount of occult power you have. The two are connected, obviously, but they are not the same.

By the way, like 2 seconds of gameplay shows that yes, you do reduce your opponent's occult meter on hit (regardless of whether they're blocking). You can clearly see P2 Reimu's occult meter go down as P1 Reimu hits her.

Regardless, assuming the Occult Bar is the logical successor to the Spirit Bar in earlier game is silly. "Getting hit reduces your Spirit" is not an actual mechanic in neither the Occult Bar of Floater Fighters nor the Spirit Bar in Grounder Fighters (Where you only lose Spirit when your shield is hit). And the Mana bar otherwise works much more closely to the Spirit Bar, being a simple mana pool for your danmaku that regenerates after being lost.

Your interpretation also contradicts the lore, as the Occult Bar is shared between master and slave, while the mana bar is not (it automatically refills when you switch out). And in perfect possession, the master and slave share their spirit, which means the mana bar literally cannot be spirit, while the occult meter, being the only aspect between the two characters that is shared, would be considered spirit by default.

And your new scan you just posted isn't much more valid either. "Non-focused shots drop P Items" is just game mechanics that are inconsistent with most other shooters. And using the highest ends shown in gameplay instead of admitting that the mechanics are too inconsistent to rate 100% according to gameplay is silly.

Are you REALLY gonna claim "game mechanics" after making me argue over how a ******* game-only rock "debunks" spirit manipulation for nearly an entire page? This is hilariously hypocritical. Are in-game showings of spirit manipulation valid or not Saikou? Make up your mind.

In any case, I'm aware the mechanics aren't consistent, but I'm just choosing the most consistent end that is reconciled between most games in the series; Hitting someone reduces their spirit and increases your own. That fact remains true in some form across nearly all games, even if the fine details change. If there is a more consistent interpretation, I'd like to see it.

tl;dr the profiles currently imply that characters dropping Power Items (items that increase the power of your danmaku) is the characters soulhaxxing other people in order to absorb their spirit energy. I think that's dumb because that's just a weakness of the characters and because Power Items are either non-canon or they're just physical items, not raw spiritual energy like Fujiwara argues.

So every character in the series having a weakness where getting hit causes their soul to fall out is somehow more reasonable than assuming characters just... have soulhax? lol

TL;DR: idk man read the actual post, im tired

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Reading them later.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

They're not named the same thing. "Power-up" is a general term for anything that powers up a character. It's not a name. It's a characteristic of something. And you have decided that two concepts with one characteristic in common are the same thing.

-

"Malarkey" is specifically a word meaning nonsense talk. She is saying that the description of a power spot is nonsense. I don't even know what you're trying to say with your second statement. If there is no faith, there is no power up. There is no faith in Power Spot, therefore they grant no power. Also please actually read the text you're quoting.

"Right, it's true they are sacred ground by definition. But while you might be able to gain power equal to a shen xian (divine hermit) by training there, as I said earlier humans from outside don't believe in hermits. So basically, they see it as nothing more than a place for a quick and easy power-up."

She explicitly notes that you MIGHT be able to become a Hermit, since outside world humans do not believe in hermits they cannot. They only see it as an easy power-up place and cannot achieve Hermithood with these. Also no. If Miko's term for the effect of Power Spots is not associated with Power Items in-universe then we have no reasons to assume they're the same thing. Nevermind that, again, "Power-Up" is a description, not a name for a concept.

-

Mamizou might say that, but the game itself implies that these are actually Mystery Spots. Power Spots and Mystery Spots are talked about in the same breath, but Kanako established them as different, with Mystery Spots actually containing ghosts and supernatural phenomena. I'd rather consider it Mamizou speaking generally, but that Mystery Spots are actually the ones giving power to the Occult Ball. It's more consistent with Kanako's statements. Although regardless, the Mystery Spots appearing in the battles of ULiL do not remotely act like Power Items. So I really don't think considering them the same as Power Items makes any sense at all.

-

They're referred to as items in manuals, which are naturally centered on gameplay. This is not the case for Larva's statement. I just said that. Divine Spirits and Phantoms are also not the same things as raw, ambient Spirit. Phantoms are individual units, they're a singular entity that happens to embodiment Spirit (as opposed to being literally just spirit). The description of Power Spots very much describes them as having ambient spirit energy that one can harness. This is not comparable to an individual Divine Spirit or Phantom.

They have NPI for being able to shoot phantoms with their danmaku. Not for being able to grab spiritual energy out of the air with their bare hands. You have to stop acting like everyone from fairies to youkai to mildly magical humans can entirely ignore the defining characteristics of Phantoms and Ghosts to the point where they're unable to tell the difference between them and regular objects, because that entirely contradicts how phantoms are treated in the lore (aka being treated as intangible). And even if they did, being able to grab a non-corporeal object 'solid' enough to keep itself together like a Phantom is not the same as being able to grab a chunk of a formless mass of spiritual energy and just keep it in your pocket. Those two types of interactions are not remotely the same and should not be assumed to be the same. Like seriously, read Chapter 2 of Strange and Bright Nature Deity. The entire plot is that neither the 3 Fairies, nor Marisa nor Reimu can catch a Phantom without using some form of warding the Phantoms away or in place. Your idea of every Touhou character being able to grab Spirit out of the air at will is objectively wrong.

-

It's not the "lowest possible interpretation". Assuming that an object shown to look like a paper charm and which was described as a charm, to be a charm, is simply the most logical option. Especially since there is no proper proof to the contrary. And because the other options make no sense even under your interpretation, and require a ton more assumptions to even remotely work.

Spirit is regenerated, yes. Not Power Items. These two are not the same. You can very much see that characters do not regenerate Power Items in the Shooters. The Spirit Bar in the fighters never involved Power Items and works quite differently (being a simple limit to how many spells a character can use in a given time, rather than a resource collected from the outside that increases the default power of your shots). These are simply two different applications of Spirit in different genres of games with different game mechanics. Quit acting like they're the same for using the same power source and having the same word in their naming scheme.

There are many more issues with the Tsukumogami sisters than simply having Power Items on them, such as them being familiar with the Spell Card system enough to have fully created Spell Cards so soon after their birth, or them knowing language already, etc. So this is most likely them being familiar with the world in their original form before being Tsukumogami (as all Tsukumogamis are born from gods inhabiting tools). Either way you can't single out this specific detail as being too wrong compared to the rest of their existence. If they can have Spell Cards, they can have Power Items. Or it's just, you know, game mechanics.

The fighters do not have the characters drain others' Spirit with their attacks outside of hitting through shields. Which is much better assumed to be simply them using more Spirit to keep their barrier up than to assume everyone only uses their spirit hax when hitting a shield, and never any other time in the fighters.

-

You seem to be unable to understand what we're saying. We're not saying Spirit doesn't exist (though I seriously doubt some of its assumed properties), we're saying that Power Items aren't literally raw Spirit energy. Or in this specific case, I'm saying that Power Items existing in-verse and working the same way they do in the games is doubtful if you ignore all the mentions of Power Items outside of manuals. You can very much have Spirit exist in the lore without Power Items existing in the lore. The fact that in the entire franchise we have only two semi-serious statements about Power Items should show as much.

Mind you I'm not saying these are necessarily game mechanics. But I am saying that if you ignore all canon acknowledgment of them in-universe, they should be treated as such. We see fights happen on-screen. We even see people going pichuun. We never see Power Items. And Power Items are mixed among very much gameplay things like Point Items. You need those statements to assume such elements are canon. Otherwise you're left with floating icons that boost your power that are never acknowledged. Something omnipresent in gameplay but never shown in story is the textbook example of Game Mechanics unless it is proven otherwise.

-

The Occult Bar drain only occurs if you're hitting the Slave. Mind you, you gaining Occult bar meter stuff happens regardless if you're hitting the Slave or the Master. And the Slave already drains this meter just via existing. This is not an example of characters absorbing Spirit Energy on hit. The Slave just lasts for a shorter amount of time when they're hit. I don't know if this stamina mechanic for perfect possession is ever explained, but trying to force it to be "Spirit Hax" again won't fly. This is just not that. You're not absorbing anything and this bar is draining on its own.

-

Your scans say they partially share their spirit. Hell your first scan even say the Spirit is replaced. And the fact that the two members clearly still have different thoughts means their spirits aren't totally merged. This is not a good enough reason to assume that the same bar which has worked the same way up until ULiL is suddenly an entirely different mechanic because its name has been slightly changed (especially since Spirit is used as mana essentially anyway). If you're willing to say that Shooter game Spirit Power and Fighters Spirit Gauge are the same, you should have no problems accepting this.

-

The difference is that the rock thing is not contradicted by a dozen or so of other games where getting hit by environmental hazards results in no Items drop. But a single game where hitting the boss drops items when simply hit is contradicted by pretty much every other shooter. This is a high-end never shown anywhere else. The rock thing simply proves that direct attacks from other characters is not needed to cause Spirit to drop.

-

No. Every character in the shooter has a weakness where getting hit on the face cause them to drop their power-up charms. Either that or these items are not real in-universe.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Next reply is gonna take a while and it's late so I may not get to it until tomorrow, but just know that claiming that Touhou characters can't interact with spiritual beings is the most insane bullshit I have ever seen posted on one of these threads. And that is an incredibly high bar to surpass so... congratulations?

EDIT: Remind me to never give timeframes again. Compiling a list of all the evidence that Saikou is wrong (there's a lot) takes time. I'll finish it when it's finished.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

They're not named the same thing. "Power-up" is a general term for anything that powers up a character. It's not a name. It's a characteristic of something. And you have decided that two concepts with one characteristic in common are the same thing.

This conveniently ignores the additional evidence of how Occult Balls are stated to contain spiritual energy, and their only possible source of that energy was power spots... which means those 'power-ups' are bestowing spiritual energy. Them being named the same is one thing, but when they both as act as increases of spiritual energy, which is a very specific thing in-universe, that suddenly makes it a lot more clear that they're the same thing in practice.

It's not just a vague stat amp, it's literally bestowing the exact same energy that power up items grant.

"Malarkey" is specifically a word meaning nonsense talk. She is saying that the description of a power spot is nonsense. I don't even know what you're trying to say with your second statement. If there is no faith, there is no power up. There is no faith in Power Spot, therefore they grant no power. Also please actually read the text you're quoting.

This is completely pointless. Whether or not a power spot is able to bestow power under certain circumstances is irrelevant; It is the nature of the energy itself that matters. And right now we know it is metaphysical energy which is also the same as a power up that applies to danmaku. All we need to prove here is that power ups are non-physical energy; Who gets access to that energy and why does not matter.

To give a comparison, if I go up to a vending machine, but don't put a dollar in, does that mean the contents of the vending machine don't exist?

"Right, it's true they are sacred ground by definition. But while you might be able to gain power equal to a shen xian (divine hermit) by training there, as I said earlier humans from outside don't believe in hermits. So basically, they see it as nothing more than a place for a quick and easy power-up."

She explicitly notes that you MIGHT be able to become a Hermit, since outside world humans do not believe in hermits they cannot. They only see it as an easy power-up place and cannot achieve Hermithood with these. Also no. If Miko's term for the effect of Power Spots is not associated with Power Items in-universe then we have no reasons to assume they're the same thing. Nevermind that, again, "Power-Up" is a description, not a name for a concept.

This isn't disproving the existence of the power up, though? She does confirm they grant power, she's just specifying that not having faith means you can't access that power. What is this even supposed to prove?

Also, we have objective evidence that power spots legitimately provide power. Say what you will about whether or not Kanako was speculating or skeptical, but that speculation is proven true thanks to the Occult Balls being powered by power spots. We have no reason to be debating this right now when ULiL and AoCF already gave us the answers.

Also very bold of you to claim I didn't read the text when you're saying Miko is the one who made these statements, when it was very obviously Kanako. Miko has virtually no presence in this scene.

Mamizou might say that, but the game itself implies that these are actually Mystery Spots. Power Spots and Mystery Spots are talked about in the same breath, but Kanako established them as different, with Mystery Spots actually containing ghosts and supernatural phenomena. I'd rather consider it Mamizou speaking generally, but that Mystery Spots are actually the ones giving power to the Occult Ball. It's more consistent with Kanako's statements. Although regardless, the Mystery Spots appearing in the battles of ULiL do not remotely act like Power Items. So I really don't think considering them the same as Power Items makes any sense at all.

Yes, I'm aware of the difference. However, between the three, Mamizou's statements are the only ones attributing the Occult Ball's power to power spots. The in-game mention of mystery spots gives no indication that those mystery spots where what gave the Occult Balls their power. Can you please show me where in ULiL or AoCF it is implied that it was mystery spots and not power spots that granted the Occult Balls their power? If not, then this is just conjecture and should be discarded in favor of actual canon evidence.

It's not even consistent with Kanako's statement. In fact, it's directly contradicted; Power spots are the only option between the two that provide some kind of empowerment, while mystery spots... don't. They're just where ghosts hang out, no mention of gaining power from them. So we know Occult Balls got their power from either spot, but by default it has to be power spots since mystery spots would be literally incapable of empowering the Occult Balls.

Also, the mystery spots in ULiL not functioning like spirit is... fine? I never claimed mystery spots granted that power. It was power spots.

They're referred to as items in manuals, which are naturally centered on gameplay. This is not the case for Larva's statement. I just said that. Divine Spirits and Phantoms are also not the same things as raw, ambient Spirit. Phantoms are individual units, they're a singular entity that happens to embodiment Spirit (as opposed to being literally just spirit). The description of Power Spots very much describes them as having ambient spirit energy that one can harness. This is not comparable to an individual Divine Spirit or Phantom.

God, do you not realize how massively hypocritical this is? You JUST used an in-game manual as a supposed debunk. So are manuals fine to use, or are they not? You need to make up your mind on this, because I'm not wasting time on this stupid little game of yours.

In any case, phantoms are not the embodiments of spirits. In the same passage where that's mentioned, they are also stated to just be spirits, not the embodiment of them. They are also confirmed to be the same thing as temperament (and by extension, spirit) multiple times by reliable sources like Komachi, which means the interpretation of phantoms being literal spirit is more consistent than phantoms simply embodying it. I'm starting to believe you haven't even read the spirit manipulation page.

They have NPI for being able to shoot phantoms with their danmaku. Not for being able to grab spiritual energy out of the air with their bare hands. You have to stop acting like everyone from fairies to youkai to mildly magical humans can entirely ignore the defining characteristics of Phantoms and Ghosts to the point where they're unable to tell the difference between them and regular objects, because that entirely contradicts how phantoms are treated in the lore (aka being treated as intangible). And even if they did, being able to grab a non-corporeal object 'solid' enough to keep itself together like a Phantom is not the same as being able to grab a chunk of a formless mass of spiritual energy and just keep it in your pocket. Those two types of interactions are not remotely the same and should not be assumed to be the same. Like seriously, read Chapter 2 of Strange and Bright Nature Deity. The entire plot is that neither the 3 Fairies, nor Marisa nor Reimu can catch a Phantom without using some form of warding the Phantoms away or in place. Your idea of every Touhou character being able to grab Spirit out of the air at will is objectively wrong.

Cool, you have exactly one (1) anti-feat for NPI. Across 30 years of history. And no, I'm not counting Reimu and Marisa, since there's nothing stating they couldn't interact with the phantom. They just wanted to keep it around for a while, and it'd phase through basic materials, so they needed a special bottle. They couldn't physically hold it themselves because doing that to phantoms gives you frostbite. This is like saying Danny Phantom can't actually interact with ghosts because he needs a special device to seal them. Or following a similar line of logic, you could say that I can't interact with boiling lava since touching it normally would harm me. Just some stellar logic here all around, A+.

Regardless, I can’t believe I actually have to do this shit. While I shouldn’t have to explain why ghosts, phantoms, poltergeists, and various other spiritual entities are incorporeal, a brief explanation on youkai incorporeality is warranted. First is that they are stated to be made of spirit (keep this in mind, it's important); While spirit’s non-physical nature is explained on its dedicated page, note that Eirin is already grouping youkai together with incorporeal entities such as ghosts in this statement. Then we have Maribel comparing youkai to formless quantum particles, seeing a youkai phase through physical matter, and saying “physical form has no meaning in that world beyond” in reference to youkai. Backing this up is SCoOW, which explains that non-human entities in Gensokyo are spiritual beings (which extends to youkai, of course). A smaller point is how Doremy brings up the impossibility of someone with a physical body entering the Dream World in 3 out of 4 LoLK routes, yet makes an exception for Reisen, a youkai, implying she doesn't have a physical body to begin with. Finally, there is Suika saying how youkai are unbound from the physical world, and are paradoxical entities that are and aren’t made of flesh and blood. Given that any one of these statements is proof of incorporeality, all of them put together makes youkai incorporeality impossible to deny. I swear to god if you say they aren't incorporeal I'll get SCP nuked from this site out of spite.

With that out of the way, let’s look at how “wrong” NPI truly is. I would've liked to have made a more thorough list, but I unfortunately can't stall this response infinitely. I will go back and add scans as I find them, or seek out specific ones on request. If this feels like spam, good, that's the point.

-Reimu physically touches and ‘pops’ a dream soul. Dream souls are a kind of phantom and are literal dreams. Doremy frequently handles her dream souls as though they are physical objects, and characters react when hit by them like they were hit by physical objects. (literally just look up any footage of Doremy in AoCF for more evidence, it's her whole gimmick).
-Numerous characters fight and physically harm Murasa, a phantom (and possible youkai, it's never made super clear).
-All characters in the fighters can physically harm Youmu (including her phantom half)
-All characters in the fighters can physically harm Yuyuko.
-The cast of LoLK and Sumireko can fight and harm Junko. Junko used her ability to ‘purify’ herself to reduce herself to a nameless state, or a ‘godly state’. This state is stated to be formless and cannot be interacted with normally. It would also be NEP by virtue of how she removed her name, which is a concept that separates things from the primordial nothingness at the beginning of creation. Junko is also considered to be a divine spirit.
-Characters can harm Tojiko, a vengeful spirit.
-Mokou could physically punch Mizuchi, a vengeful spirit. We even see a ‘slap’ sound effect, a pretty clear indicator of physical contact.
-Numerous characters fight and interact with Saki, Yachie, and Yuuma, who are beast spirits. They also interact with and ‘collect’ lesser beast spirits in WBaWC.
-Collecting and absorbing divine spirits is the core mechanic of TD. Divine spirits are not only formless spirits, but ‘pure will’. They are also stated to be masses of pure evil without forms. Remind me again how the main case can't hurt abstract entities?
-Characters can harm the Prismriver Sisters, who are poltergeists.
-Tenshi can ‘cut’ phantoms. Youmu can do the same.
-Characters are able to physically interact with and harm Kanako, a divine spirit. This is true of other divine spirits such as Eirin and Sagume.
-Characters can physically interact with and harm Suwako, who is made of pure faith.
-Characters can interact with Sumireko’s astral projected form in Gensokyo. (she only visits Gensokyo in her dreams, and when you dream, your soul leaves your body and enters the Dream World, hence her incorporeality [which also supports the "everyone in Touhou can survive without their soul" arguments, since that's literally just how sleeping works in the verse]).
-Numerous dream versions of characters could interact with and harm Sumireko’s dream self in the Dream World during the events of VD, which is again only an astral projection of her. Dream selves are identical to their real selves in terms of abilities, so a character’s dream self having NPI would mean their real self has it too.
-Maribel, while astral projecting, is able to physically interact with random people in Gensokyo.
-Marisa could harm a youkai in a mist-like, intangible form.
-Suika could physically pluck Miyoi’s soul out of a bottle.
-Kasen grabs a vengeful spirit and crushes it in her hand. And does it again. And again.
-Reimu could put Remilia in a headlock.
-Reimu holds Kasen’s hand.
-Marisa can physically harm phantoms, ghosts, youkai, and Suwako.
-Kosuzu physically harms a cloaked kappa.
-Reimu very infamously cleaves the fortune teller’s skull in half.
-Literally Just A Regular Human touches Reisen.
-Characters can physically interact with Unzan, who is a literal cloud. Ichirin can stand on him as though he were a physical object.
-Reimu physically manhandles Aya on two occasions.
-Reimu cuddles a fox youkai. Then bonks it over the head.
-That same fox youkai is able to physically interact with a number of ordinary human villagers, before Kasen grabs it.
-Reimu physically touches Ichirin, a youkai.
-Kasen physically touches Aunn, a divine spirit.
-Komachi homoerotically gently touches Kasen with her scythe.
-Yorihime picks up and... eats... Marisa's star based danmaku. This one's just kinda weird, not even sure if it's NPI but I felt like including it.
-A bunch of regular moon rabbits physically interact with Yuyuko.
-Tenshi touches Kasen.
-Eirin and Reisen have no trouble interacting with each other.
-Eirin physically slams Reimu's head to the floor. god i wish that were me
-Satori and Orin, both youkai, can physically interact with each other.
-Moon rabbits are able to physically poke Satori's body.
-Seija and Shinmyoumaru, both youkai, do a cute little fistbump with each other.
-Remilia slaps Patchouli.
-Orin lifts up Nitori's body and puts it in a wheelbarrow.
-Reimu punches Suika, followed by Suika grabbing Reimu.
-Marisa shakes hands with/fistbumps Suika.
-Yuyuko carries Satori.
-Eirin is probably touching Reimu here. I mean, you gotta touch someone if you're using a stethoscope, right?
-Oh look, the Three Fairies of Light can interact with ghosts just fine. There's a little visual 'bump' indicator and one of the fairies mentions how cold it is, which means she's definitely physically touching it. Given the mentions of cold temperatures, I'm inclined to believe that these are in fact phantoms, but either works.
-Rumia holds and carries Youmu's phantom half.
-Kasen physically touches and picks an orb of pure light like an apple from a tree.
-Hina is implied to have dragged Aya's body from the river onto the shore.
-Nitori physically shoves Mamizou.
-Youmu cuddles her phantom half.
-Flandre chokes Meiling.
-Reimu throws a rock at a tanuki disguised as the moon.
-Yuyuko physically restrains Marisa.
-Reimu slaps Meiling. lot more physical violence in CDS than I remember, huh
-Orin and Chen physically touch each other multiple times.
-Marisa physically touches Alice.
-Yuyuko touches Alice.
-Chen grabs Ran's tails.
-Kasen could pick up and carry Reimu.
-Clownpiece can interact with Hecatia, a divine spirit.
-Reimu physically drags away a fox youkai.
-Kasen gently touches Reimu's head.
-Marisa picks up a tsukumogami.
-Kasen is able to make physical contact with an ordinary human villager.
-Reimu physically grabs Mamizou and that one fox youkai.
-Kasen slaps Reimu on the back of the head.
-Reimu is able to physically grab Nitori.
-Reimu grabs a random kappa.
-Suika can make physical contact with Reimu.
-Mamizou and Kasen can make physical contact.
-Kasen is able to grab Yukari's hand.
-A bunch of recently created fodder youkai can make physical contact with Kasen.
-Sakuya can physically touch Remilia.
-Yukari can tap Marisa on the shoulder.
-Yukari can physically touch a hobgoblin, a kind of youkai. Reimu can do the same. As well as Marisa.
-Kasen can place her hand on Reimu's shoulder.
-Reimu can pick up and hold Shinmyoumaru.
-Reimu could hit and get hit by Kasen's true form, which is not only still a youkai, but also nonexistent.
-Sanae could physically interact with Nitori.
-Kasen could physically restrain her own nonexistent form.
-and many others but it's 6:30am and i dont think it's fair to stall this response any further

I don’t deny that the way we index NPI now is pretty lackluster and could use more detail. But you cannot seriously discredit dozens of examples of characters interacting with spiritual entities, whether that be through physical contact, magic, or what have you. This is a pretty universal ability, too, with even nameless fodder youkai who were just recently created or ordinary human villagers can accomplish it. I even went out of my way to include as many manga scans as possible so you don't cry game mechanics.

To recap, you have brought 2 (technically just 1 since one of them is bullshit) anti-feats while conveniently ignoring the countless instances of NPI across the series. I know I missed a lot, but holy ****, 5 minutes alone of working on this post turned up more evidence for my points than you could ever provide for yours. And look, you can probably pick apart a couple individual examples, but no matter what, there are still far more feats than anti-feats for NPI.

Plus, the idea that danmaku is what enables NPI is absurd. A lot of danmaku is just physical items. Mokou throws yakitori at you, Eternity sheds butterfly scales, Wakasagihime does the same with fish scales, Kogasa just makes it rain, Sakuya throws knives, Sekibanki stretches her head, Kagerou bodyslams you, the list goes on... the vast majority of these attacks aren't some special anti-ghost technique, they're just regular physical interaction on non-physical targets. Furthermore, there are a significant number of non-danmaku spell cards or even just regular physical attacks present in the fighters, with things like Mokou and Reimu just kicking people, Marisa ramming people with her broomstick, most of what Suika and Youmu do in the grounded fighters, Byakuren running people over with a motorcycle, and so on. Hell, in the case of Eternity, Wakasagihime, Kagerou, and Sekibanki, it's their own ******* bodies that are the "danmaku". I could give at least one example from every character in the games using physical attacks to harm non-physical targets. This isn't even mentioning how making physical contact with anyone in the STGs, regardless of if they're a phantom, youkai, or other kind of spirit, you don't phase through them, you still get hit as normal (the inverse applies, where youkai/phantoms/spirits get hit when running into each other, or into physical entities like humans), or how you can walk into and 'push' incorporeal characters in the fighters.

Also, physically grabbing phantoms and grabbing spiritual energy is the exact same. If you read the blog, you'd know that spirit is phantoms, so they're just... the same material, which means interacting with one lets you interact with the other. There is absolutely nothing to imply that the physical state of a phantom changes when it's a phantom vs when it's spirit (or that there's even a differentiation between the two to begin with), that's on you to prove. Not even mentioning the examples of physical interaction with youkai, which are literally made of spirit.

Finally, I wanna point out how ridiculous it is to claim that phantoms are supposed to be narratively 'untouchable' when both Akyuu and Aya go out of their way to affirm that phantoms are cold to the touch; Mind you, both PMiSS and BAiJR are intended to be read by basically everyone in Gensokyo (including regular human villagers), so if they were wholly incapable of touching spiritual beings... why the **** would Akyuu and Aya have to warn them about touching them in the first place?

To summarize your entire disaster of an argument,

It's not the "lowest possible interpretation". Assuming that an object shown to look like a paper charm and which was described as a charm, to be a charm, is simply the most logical option. Especially since there is no proper proof to the contrary. And because the other options make no sense even under your interpretation, and require a ton more assumptions to even remotely work.

Remind me again how my interpretation doesn't make sense? You haven't provided a single reason outside of Sanae's statement as to why spirit power items can't be energy; I've already debunked the "characters can't interact with spirits/energy" bullshit above.

As shown below, your interpretation raises far more questions than answers, so unless you can demonstrate why spirit power items being energy is wrong and how the many in-universe contradictions to your interpretation can be ignored or debunked, we have literally no reason to assume your interpretation holds more weight.

If you wanna use Occam's Razor, remember that the more simple option can still be incorrect if there's evidence against it, which as it stands now, there is.

Spirit is regenerated, yes. Not Power Items. These two are not the same. You can very much see that characters do not regenerate Power Items in the Shooters. The Spirit Bar in the fighters never involved Power Items and works quite differently (being a simple limit to how many spells a character can use in a given time, rather than a resource collected from the outside that increases the default power of your shots). These are simply two different applications of Spirit in different genres of games with different game mechanics. Quit acting like they're the same for using the same power source and having the same word in their naming scheme.

That's completely false, actually. When you continue a game (continues are canon for a number of reasons; Flandre and Marisa have a brief exchange about them in EoSD, SCoOW confirms they're just in-universe 'rematches', and Marisa in SoEW mentions them in explicit terms while speaking to the player), you regain your lives and get a full power item. Lives are canon as well, being mentioned in ability cards as pure life force, but WoG also describes them as your 'guts' (basically your determination; Supported by how the lives system in GFW is verbatim called motivation). Given that continues and lives are actually canon mechanics, and are directly tied to your willpower, this leaves us with two options as to where the 'bonus' spirit power came from:

-The protagonist gains a sudden burst of internal energy from the drive to push forward.
-The protagonist becomes so determined that they cause their thoughts to spontaneously manifest a physical magic charm that grants them energy.

Occam's Razor dictates that the former option requires less assumptions, so unless you can provide substantial evidence for the latter option, the former is what we should stick with. As a side note, this is probably a much better justification for supernatural willpower than what we have now.

As for that last bit, you... fundamentally do not understand what spirit is. It is not a power that is fueled by a power source, it literally IS that power source. You do not collect spirit power to fuel your spirit power, you collect it to fuel techniques that are reliant on spirit. I genuinely do not understand how you came to any other conclusion. Also, yes, we should assume that Spirit Power is the same as Spirit Power, this isn't that hard. Though I doubt that argument is made in good faith anyways, since you also believe mana is the same as spirit despite being named completely differently.

There are many more issues with the Tsukumogami sisters than simply having Power Items on them, such as them being familiar with the Spell Card system enough to have fully created Spell Cards so soon after their birth, or them knowing language already, etc. So this is most likely them being familiar with the world in their original form before being Tsukumogami (as all Tsukumogamis are born from gods inhabiting tools). Either way you can't single out this specific detail as being too wrong compared to the rest of their existence. If they can have Spell Cards, they can have Power Items. Or it's just, you know, game mechanics.

Way to ignore, y'know, literally every other example I gave. If characters who were recently born into the world are an issue, then what about Byakuren, who did have knowledge of the world, yet was sealed away for centuries and yet... somehow just happens to have dozens of power item 'charms' on her person when she's unsealed? ******* lmao at "tsukumogami" sisters though

Even then, the lack of knowledge issue is easily addressed by how, even if they did know what spirit power items were, these characters were alive for a few hours at most before being fought, and would have to make a beeline for wherever the closest stash of power item charms are. Again, all of these ridiculous assumptions are completely non-existent if we just assume this is their raw energy and not a physical item they carry on their person.

Also, spell cards aren't even physical items like what you claim spirit power items are. They're just a technique of the user, given a name, so it's not like they would need to go out of their way to find or make spell cards like they would for spirit power items... which again, is an issue we can ignore if we assume it's just internal energy.

Finally, there's yet another contradiction to spirit power being charms; In DDC, Marisa has attacks that drain the magic of the target, producing power items as a result. It'd be very odd to assume that 'draining' someone's magic refers to making them drop a handful of physical charms, right? The same goes for her spell card, which absorbs magic. Absorbing or draining magic makes no sense in the context of these items just being physical charms that people drop when they get hit, but it absolutely DOES make sense in the context of metaphysical energy.

Mind you I'm not saying these are necessarily game mechanics. But I am saying that if you ignore all canon acknowledgment of them in-universe, they should be treated as such. We see fights happen on-screen. We even see people going pichuun. We never see Power Items. And Power Items are mixed among very much gameplay things like Point Items. You need those statements to assume such elements are canon. Otherwise you're left with floating icons that boost your power that are never acknowledged. Something omnipresent in gameplay but never shown in story is the textbook example of Game Mechanics unless it is proven otherwise.

They literally are acknowledged, you just dislike the acknowledgement. Have you maybe possibly considered that the P items seen in-game aren't a direct visual representation of what spirit power items actually look like? Y'know, as is the case for literally everything in Touhou games? Parsee's spell cards are supposed to be growing flowers or shooting fire, but those are not visually represented at all in their respective in-game appearances. Reimu's duplex barrier turns space inside out, but this doesn't look like that to me. Look at any ability granted from text descriptions in GoM/GoU and I guarantee they do not line up at all with what the games visually portray. The STGs have always been pretty visually limited since they rely on the danmaku patterns themselves rather than ultraspecific exact representations of what certain things are supposed to be. Also, if you want to use Sanae's statement as a debunk, then you automatically have to acknowledge that point items are canon too and not gameplay limited, as she also mentions them in that scene; So is her statement canon or not? Make up your mind on this shit already good lord

You still don't understand what game mechanics is. Spirit power items are objectively providing spirit power in some way, which is an in-universe power source. Yes, the specificities of what spirit power items are and how they work in combat is not elaborated on much in-universe. But this is a case where the gameplay shows in-universe mechanics put into practice.

Something being omnipresent in gameplay/tutorials/manuals but absent in lore is like... the basis for the vast majority of video game character abilities. Like, seriously, go to any video game character page and you'll see what I mean, but since I doubt you'll do that on your own, I'll go ahead and use Sonic as an example (though really, any verse will work). Keep in mind that Touhou's spirit manipulation has an even greater basis in reality than these, since the actual existence of spirit power is mention in-universe many, many times.

-Resurrection: Mentioned in-game, not in lore.
-Healing: In-game, not in lore.
-Durability Negation: In-game, not in lore.
-NPI: In-game, not in lore.
-Damage Reduction: In-game, not in lore.
-Hammerspace: In-game, not in lore.
-Invulnerability Negation: In-game, not in lore.
-Forcefield Creation: In-game, not in lore.
-Fourth Wall Awareness: In-game, not in lore.
-Precognition: In a manual, not in lore.
-Dimensional Travel: In a manual, not in lore.
-Statistics Amplification: In-game, not in lore.
-Energy Manipulation: In a manual, not in lore.
-Reality Warping: Mostly in manuals, only lore justification probably wouldn't be enough for RW on its own.
-Resistance Negation: In-game, not in lore.
-Resistance to Curse Manipulation: In-game, not in lore.
-Resistance to Energy and Electricity: In a manual, not in lore.
-Resistance to Extreme Heat: In-game, not in lore.
-Resistance to Cosmic Radiation: In-game, not in lore.
-Resistance to Acid Manipulation: In manuals, not in lore.
-Transmutation: In-game, not in lore.
-Status Effect Inducement: In-game, not in lore.
-Resistance to Durability Negation: In-game, not in lore.
-Probably a few others I missed.

According to you, all of the above abilities are invalid because the lore does not mention them. God forbid I mention the optional equipment section and how riddled with 'game mechanics' that is.

Verses like Pokemon are arguably even worse in this regard, but my point stands that you are completely and utterly ignoring how the vast majority of video game profiles are written. But if you really want to use this logic, go ahead and try downgrading the Sonic verse on this basis. I've given you all the scans you need, after all. Or, if you're unwilling to do that, then maybe you should admit that the basis of your 'gameplay mechanics' argument has always been faulty. And if not that, then you're just singling out Touhou in this regard for reasons that are beyond me.

The Occult Bar drain only occurs if you're hitting the Slave. Mind you, you gaining Occult bar meter stuff happens regardless if you're hitting the Slave or the Master. And the Slave already drains this meter just via existing. This is not an example of characters absorbing Spirit Energy on hit. The Slave just lasts for a shorter amount of time when they're hit. I don't know if this stamina mechanic for perfect possession is ever explained, but trying to force it to be "Spirit Hax" again won't fly. This is just not that. You're not absorbing anything and this bar is draining on its own.

No it doesn't??? You can literally run out the timer while playing as the slave, the meter never decreases (gfycat and imgur only allow 60 second videos so you can't see the end, but you can still see that the meter never decreases even once. Go test it yourself if you doubt me). It's only through external input (ie; your opponent beating the shit out of you) that the meter decreases. This is just straight up ******* lying at this point lmao

Also, if you're not absorbing the occult meter, then what's up with the particle effects that fly out of the opponent whenever you hit them that are automatically absorbed by you? Seems like a clear visual indicator of absorption to me.

Your scans say they partially share their spirit. Hell your first scan even say the Spirit is replaced. And the fact that the two members clearly still have different thoughts means their spirits aren't totally merged. This is not a good enough reason to assume that the same bar which has worked the same way up until ULiL is suddenly an entirely different mechanic because its name has been slightly changed (especially since Spirit is used as mana essentially anyway). If you're willing to say that Shooter game Spirit Power and Fighters Spirit Gauge are the same, you should have no problems accepting this.

If their spirit was shared to literally any extent at all, which it is, they wouldn't have completely independent "spirit" bars. They'd have at least some degree of connection, but they obviously don't. I never said they needed to share 100% of their spirit. I accept that spirit power and spirit are the same because there isn't lore contradicting that fact, unlike in this instance.

The difference is that the rock thing is not contradicted by a dozen or so of other games where getting hit by environmental hazards results in no Items drop. But a single game where hitting the boss drops items when simply hit is contradicted by pretty much every other shooter. This is a high-end never shown anywhere else. The rock thing simply proves that direct attacks from other characters is not needed to cause Spirit to drop.

A high end never shown anywhere else.

Aside from, y'know, every single STG where you get hit and drop spirit power. You seem intent on ignoring that. Or AoCF where you absorb spirit power. Or the previous fighters where you reduce your opponent's spirit. PoFV and GFW might also work like this but I need to double check.

Also, the rock thing is just ******* pathetic at this point. You claim that the spirit power stuff is an outlier, yet claim an instance of MFTL+/high 3-A characters getting tagged and harmed by falling rocks is fine. You claim spirit power is game mechanics because it's only shown in gameplay, never in lore, but the rocks are also only in gameplay and not in lore. Do you not realize the massive hypocrisy you're presenting here?

TL;DR: Either take this argument seriously and stop stooping so low, or leave and stop wasting my time on this nonsense. I would prefer to be doing literally anything else than spending several days debunking your headcanons and blatant misinformation.

Sorry for the long wait, gathering over 100 scans takes time y'know.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

This conveniently ignores the additional evidence of how Occult Balls are stated to contain spiritual energy, and their only possible source of that energy was power spots... which means those 'power-ups' are bestowing spiritual energy. Them being named the same is one thing, but when they both as act as increases of spiritual energy, which is a very specific thing in-universe, that suddenly makes it a lot more clear that they're the same thing in practice.

It's not just a vague stat amp, it's literally bestowing the exact same energy that power up items grant.


This is completely pointless. Whether or not a power spot is able to bestow power under certain circumstances is irrelevant; It is the nature of the energy itself that matters. And right now we know it is metaphysical energy which is also the same as a power up that applies to danmaku. All we need to prove here is that power ups are non-physical energy; Who gets access to that energy and why does not matter.

To give a comparison, if I go up to a vending machine, but don't put a dollar in, does that mean the contents of the vending machine don't exist?


This isn't disproving the existence of the power up, though? She does confirm they grant power, she's just specifying that not having faith means you can't access that power. What is this even supposed to prove?

Also, we have objective evidence that power spots legitimately provide power. Say what you will about whether or not Kanako was speculating or skeptical, but that speculation is proven true thanks to the Occult Balls being powered by power spots. We have no reason to be debating this right now when ULiL and AoCF already gave us the answers.

Also very bold of you to claim I didn't read the text when you're saying Miko is the one who made these statements, when it was very obviously Kanako. Miko has virtually no presence in this scene.


Yes, I'm aware of the difference. However, between the three, Mamizou's statements are the only ones attributing the Occult Ball's power to power spots. The in-game mention of mystery spots gives no indication that those mystery spots where what gave the Occult Balls their power. Can you please show me where in ULiL or AoCF it is implied that it was mystery spots and not power spots that granted the Occult Balls their power? If not, then this is just conjecture and should be discarded in favor of actual canon evidence.

It's not even consistent with Kanako's statement. In fact, it's directly contradicted; Power spots are the only option between the two that provide some kind of empowerment, while mystery spots... don't. They're just where ghosts hang out, no mention of gaining power from them. So we know Occult Balls got their power from either spot, but by default it has to be power spots since mystery spots would be literally incapable of empowering the Occult Balls.

Also, the mystery spots in ULiL not functioning like spirit is... fine? I never claimed mystery spots granted that power. It was power spots.


God, do you not realize how massively hypocritical this is? You JUST used an in-game manual as a supposed debunk. So are manuals fine to use, or are they not? You need to make up your mind on this, because I'm not wasting time on this stupid little game of yours.

In any case, phantoms are not the embodiments of spirits. In the same passage where that's mentioned, they are also stated to just be spirits, not the embodiment of them. They are also confirmed to be the same thing as temperament (and by extension, spirit) multiple times by reliable sources like Komachi, which means the interpretation of phantoms being literal spirit is more consistent than phantoms simply embodying it. I'm starting to believe you haven't even read the spirit manipulation page.


Cool, you have exactly one (1) anti-feat for NPI. Across 30 years of history. And no, I'm not counting Reimu and Marisa, since there's nothing stating they couldn't interact with the phantom. They just wanted to keep it around for a while, and it'd phase through basic materials, so they needed a special bottle. They couldn't physically hold it themselves because doing that to phantoms gives you frostbite. This is like saying Danny Phantom can't actually interact with ghosts because he needs a special device to seal them. Or following a similar line of logic, you could say that I can't interact with boiling lava since touching it normally would harm me. Just some stellar logic here all around, A+.

Regardless, I can’t believe I actually have to do this shit. While I shouldn’t have to explain why ghosts, phantoms, poltergeists, and various other spiritual entities are incorporeal, a brief explanation on youkai incorporeality is warranted. First is that they are stated to be made of spirit (keep this in mind, it's important); While spirit’s non-physical nature is explained on its dedicated page, note that Eirin is already grouping youkai together with incorporeal entities such as ghosts in this statement. Then we have Maribel comparing youkai to formless quantum particles, seeing a youkai phase through physical matter, and saying “physical form has no meaning in that world beyond” in reference to youkai. Backing this up is SCoOW, which explains that non-human entities in Gensokyo are spiritual beings (which extends to youkai, of course). A smaller point is how Doremy brings up the impossibility of someone with a physical body entering the Dream World in 3 out of 4 LoLK routes, yet makes an exception for Reisen, a youkai, implying she doesn't have a physical body to begin with. Finally, there is Suika saying how youkai are unbound from the physical world, and are paradoxical entities that are and aren’t made of flesh and blood. Given that any one of these statements is proof of incorporeality, all of them put together makes youkai incorporeality impossible to deny. I swear to god if you say they aren't incorporeal I'll get SCP nuked from this site out of spite.

With that out of the way, let’s look at how “wrong” NPI truly is. I would've liked to have made a more thorough list, but I unfortunately can't stall this response infinitely. I will go back and add scans as I find them, or seek out specific ones on request. If this feels like spam, good, that's the point.

-Reimu physically touches and ‘pops’ a dream soul. Dream souls are a kind of phantom and are literal dreams. Doremy frequently handles her dream souls as though they are physical objects, and characters react when hit by them like they were hit by physical objects. (literally just look up any footage of Doremy in AoCF for more evidence, it's her whole gimmick).
-Numerous characters fight and physically harm Murasa, a phantom (and possible youkai, it's never made super clear).
-All characters in the fighters can physically harm Youmu (including her phantom half)
-All characters in the fighters can physically harm Yuyuko.
-The cast of LoLK and Sumireko can fight and harm Junko. Junko used her ability to ‘purify’ herself to reduce herself to a nameless state, or a ‘godly state’. This state is stated to be formless and cannot be interacted with normally. It would also be NEP by virtue of how she removed her name, which is a concept that separates things from the primordial nothingness at the beginning of creation. Junko is also considered to be a divine spirit.
-Characters can harm Tojiko, a vengeful spirit.
-Mokou could physically punch Mizuchi, a vengeful spirit. We even see a ‘slap’ sound effect, a pretty clear indicator of physical contact.
-Numerous characters fight and interact with Saki, Yachie, and Yuuma, who are beast spirits. They also interact with and ‘collect’ lesser beast spirits in WBaWC.
-Collecting and absorbing divine spirits is the core mechanic of TD. Divine spirits are not only formless spirits, but ‘pure will’. They are also stated to be masses of pure evil without forms. Remind me again how the main case can't hurt abstract entities?
-Characters can harm the Prismriver Sisters, who are poltergeists.
-Tenshi can ‘cut’ phantoms. Youmu can do the same.
-Characters are able to physically interact with and harm Kanako, a divine spirit. This is true of other divine spirits such as Eirin and Sagume.
-Characters can physically interact with and harm Suwako, who is made of pure faith.
-Characters can interact with Sumireko’s astral projected form in Gensokyo. (she only visits Gensokyo in her dreams, and when you dream, your soul leaves your body and enters the Dream World, hence her incorporeality [which also supports the "everyone in Touhou can survive without their soul" arguments, since that's literally just how sleeping works in the verse]).
-Numerous dream versions of characters could interact with and harm Sumireko’s dream self in the Dream World during the events of VD, which is again only an astral projection of her. Dream selves are identical to their real selves in terms of abilities, so a character’s dream self having NPI would mean their real self has it too.
-Maribel, while astral projecting, is able to physically interact with random people in Gensokyo.
-Marisa could harm a youkai in a mist-like, intangible form.
-Suika could physically pluck Miyoi’s soul out of a bottle.
-Kasen grabs a vengeful spirit and crushes it in her hand. And does it again. And again.
-Reimu could put Remilia in a headlock.
-Reimu holds Kasen’s hand.
-Marisa can physically harm phantoms, ghosts, youkai, and Suwako.
-Kosuzu physically harms a cloaked kappa.
-Reimu very infamously cleaves the fortune teller’s skull in half.
-Literally Just A Regular Human touches Reisen.
-Characters can physically interact with Unzan, who is a literal cloud. Ichirin can stand on him as though he were a physical object.
-Reimu physically manhandles Aya on two occasions.
-Reimu cuddles a fox youkai. Then bonks it over the head.
-That same fox youkai is able to physically interact with a number of ordinary human villagers, before Kasen grabs it.
-Reimu physically touches Ichirin, a youkai.
-Kasen physically touches Aunn, a divine spirit.
-Komachi homoerotically gently touches Kasen with her scythe.
-Yorihime picks up and... eats... Marisa's star based danmaku. This one's just kinda weird, not even sure if it's NPI but I felt like including it.
-A bunch of regular moon rabbits physically interact with Yuyuko.
-Tenshi touches Kasen.
-Eirin and Reisen have no trouble interacting with each other.
-Eirin physically slams Reimu's head to the floor. god i wish that were me
-Satori and Orin, both youkai, can physically interact with each other.
-Moon rabbits are able to physically poke Satori's body.
-Seija and Shinmyoumaru, both youkai, do a cute little fistbump with each other.
-Remilia slaps Patchouli.
-Orin lifts up Nitori's body and puts it in a wheelbarrow.
-Reimu punches Suika, followed by Suika grabbing Reimu.
-Marisa shakes hands with/fistbumps Suika.
-Yuyuko carries Satori.
-Eirin is probably touching Reimu here. I mean, you gotta touch someone if you're using a stethoscope, right?
-Oh look, the Three Fairies of Light can interact with ghosts just fine. There's a little visual 'bump' indicator and one of the fairies mentions how cold it is, which means she's definitely physically touching it. Given the mentions of cold temperatures, I'm inclined to believe that these are in fact phantoms, but either works.
-Rumia holds and carries Youmu's phantom half.
-Kasen physically touches and picks an orb of pure light like an apple from a tree.
-Hina is implied to have dragged Aya's body from the river onto the shore.
-Nitori physically shoves Mamizou.
-Youmu cuddles her phantom half.
-Flandre chokes Meiling.
-Reimu throws a rock at a tanuki disguised as the moon.
-Yuyuko physically restrains Marisa.
-Reimu slaps Meiling. lot more physical violence in CDS than I remember, huh
-Orin and Chen physically touch each other multiple times.
-Marisa physically touches Alice.
-Yuyuko touches Alice.
-Chen grabs Ran's tails.
-Kasen could pick up and carry Reimu.
-Clownpiece can interact with Hecatia, a divine spirit.
-Reimu physically drags away a fox youkai.
-Kasen gently touches Reimu's head.
-Marisa picks up a tsukumogami.
-Kasen is able to make physical contact with an ordinary human villager.
-Reimu physically grabs Mamizou and that one fox youkai.
-Kasen slaps Reimu on the back of the head.
-Reimu is able to physically grab Nitori.
-Reimu grabs a random kappa.
-Suika can make physical contact with Reimu.
-Mamizou and Kasen can make physical contact.
-Kasen is able to grab Yukari's hand.
-A bunch of recently created fodder youkai can make physical contact with Kasen.
-Sakuya can physically touch Remilia.
-Yukari can tap Marisa on the shoulder.
-Yukari can physically touch a hobgoblin, a kind of youkai. Reimu can do the same. As well as Marisa.
-Kasen can place her hand on Reimu's shoulder.
-Reimu can pick up and hold Shinmyoumaru.
-Reimu could hit and get hit by Kasen's true form, which is not only still a youkai, but also nonexistent.
-Sanae could physically interact with Nitori.
-Kasen could physically restrain her own nonexistent form.
-and many others but it's 6:30am and i dont think it's fair to stall this response any further

I don’t deny that the way we index NPI now is pretty lackluster and could use more detail. But you cannot seriously discredit dozens of examples of characters interacting with spiritual entities, whether that be through physical contact, magic, or what have you. This is a pretty universal ability, too, with even nameless fodder youkai who were just recently created or ordinary human villagers can accomplish it. I even went out of my way to include as many manga scans as possible so you don't cry game mechanics.

To recap, you have brought 2 (technically just 1 since one of them is bullshit) anti-feats while conveniently ignoring the countless instances of NPI across the series. I know I missed a lot, but holy ****, 5 minutes alone of working on this post turned up more evidence for my points than you could ever provide for yours. And look, you can probably pick apart a couple individual examples, but no matter what, there are still far more feats than anti-feats for NPI.

Plus, the idea that danmaku is what enables NPI is absurd. A lot of danmaku is just physical items. Mokou throws yakitori at you, Eternity sheds butterfly scales, Wakasagihime does the same with fish scales, Kogasa just makes it rain, Sakuya throws knives, Sekibanki stretches her head, Kagerou bodyslams you, the list goes on... the vast majority of these attacks aren't some special anti-ghost technique, they're just regular physical interaction on non-physical targets. Furthermore, there are a significant number of non-danmaku spell cards or even just regular physical attacks present in the fighters, with things like Mokou and Reimu just kicking people, Marisa ramming people with her broomstick, most of what Suika and Youmu do in the grounded fighters, Byakuren running people over with a motorcycle, and so on. Hell, in the case of Eternity, Wakasagihime, Kagerou, and Sekibanki, it's their own ******* bodies that are the "danmaku". I could give at least one example from every character in the games using physical attacks to harm non-physical targets. This isn't even mentioning how making physical contact with anyone in the STGs, regardless of if they're a phantom, youkai, or other kind of spirit, you don't phase through them, you still get hit as normal (the inverse applies, where youkai/phantoms/spirits get hit when running into each other, or into physical entities like humans), or how you can walk into and 'push' incorporeal characters in the fighters.

Also, physically grabbing phantoms and grabbing spiritual energy is the exact same. If you read the blog, you'd know that spirit is phantoms, so they're just... the same material, which means interacting with one lets you interact with the other. There is absolutely nothing to imply that the physical state of a phantom changes when it's a phantom vs when it's spirit (or that there's even a differentiation between the two to begin with), that's on you to prove. Not even mentioning the examples of physical interaction with youkai, which are literally made of spirit.

Finally, I wanna point out how ridiculous it is to claim that phantoms are supposed to be narratively 'untouchable' when both Akyuu and Aya goes out of her way to affirm that phantoms are cold to the touch; Mind you, both PMiSS and BAiJR are intended to be read by basically everyone in Gensokyo (including regular human villagers), so if they were wholly incapable of touching spiritual beings... why the **** would Akyuu and Aya have to warn them about touching them in the first place?

To summarize your entire disaster of an argument,


Remind me again how my interpretation doesn't make sense? You haven't provided a single reason outside of Sanae's statement as to why spirit power items can't be energy; I've already debunked the "characters can't interact with spirits/energy" bullshit above.

As shown below, your interpretation raises far more questions than answers, so unless you can demonstrate why spirit power items being energy is wrong and how the many in-universe contradictions to your interpretation can be ignored or debunked, we have literally no reason to assume your interpretation holds more weight.

If you wanna use Occam's Razor, remember that the more simple option can still be incorrect if there's evidence against it, which as it stands now, there is.


That's completely false, actually. When you continue a game (continues are canon for a number of reasons; Flandre and Marisa have a brief exchange about them in EoSD, SCoOW confirms they're just in-universe 'rematches', and Marisa in SoEW mentions them in explicit terms while speaking to the player), you regain your lives and get a full power item. Lives are canon as well, being mentioned in ability cards as pure life force, but WoG also describes them as your 'guts' (basically your determination; Supported by how the lives system in GFW is verbatim called motivation). Given that continues and lives are actually canon mechanics, and are directly tied to your willpower, this leaves us with two options as to where the 'bonus' spirit power came from:

-The protagonist gains a sudden burst of internal energy from the drive to push forward.
-The protagonist becomes so determined that they cause their thoughts to spontaneously manifest a physical magic charm that grants them energy.

Occam's Razor dictates that the former option requires less assumptions, so unless you can provide substantial evidence for the latter option, the former is what we should stick with. As a side note, this is probably a much better justification for supernatural willpower than what we have now.

As for that last bit, you... fundamentally do not understand what spirit is. It is not a power that is fueled by a power source, it literally IS that power source. You do not collect spirit power to fuel your spirit power, you collect it to fuel techniques that are reliant on spirit. I genuinely do not understand how you came to any other conclusion. Also, yes, we should assume that Spirit Power is the same as Spirit Power, this isn't that hard. Though I doubt that argument is made in good faith anyways, since you also believe mana is the same as spirit despite being named completely differently.

...Have I been wasting my time arguing with someone who doesn't even understand what we're arguing about?


Way to ignore, y'know, literally every other example I gave. If characters who were recently born into the world are an issue, then what about Byakuren, who did have knowledge of the world, yet was sealed away for centuries and yet... somehow just happens to have dozens of power item 'charms' on her person when she's unsealed? ******* lmao at "tsukumogami" sisters though

Even then, the lack of knowledge issue is easily addressed by how, even if they did know what spirit power items were, these characters were alive for a few hours at most before being fought, and would have to make a beeline for wherever the closest stash of power item charms are. Again, all of these ridiculous assumptions are completely non-existent if we just assume this is their raw energy and not a physical item they carry on their person.

Also, spell cards aren't even physical items like what you claim spirit power items are. They're just a technique of the user, given a name, so it's not like they would need to go out of their way to find or make spell cards like they would for spirit power items... which again, is an issue we can ignore if we assume it's just internal energy.

Finally, there's yet another contradiction to spirit power being charms; In DDC, Marisa has attacks that drain the magic of the target, producing power items as a result. It'd be very odd to assume that 'draining' someone's magic refers to making them drop a handful of physical charms, right? The same goes for her spell card, which absorbs magic. Absorbing or draining magic makes no sense in the context of these items just being physical charms that people drop when they get hit, but it absolutely DOES make sense in the context of metaphysical energy.


They literally are acknowledged, you just dislike the acknowledgement. Have you maybe possibly considered that the P items seen in-game aren't a direct visual representation of what spirit power items actually look like? Y'know, as is the case for literally everything in Touhou games? Parsee's spell cards are supposed to be growing flowers or shooting fire, but those are not visually represented at all in their respective in-game appearances. Reimu's duplex barrier turns space inside out, but this doesn't look like that to me. Look at any ability granted from text descriptions in GoM/GoU and I guarantee they do not line up at all with what the games visually portray. The STGs have always been pretty visually limited since they rely on the danmaku patterns themselves rather than ultraspecific exact representations of what certain things are supposed to be. Also, if you want to use Sanae's statement as a debunk, then you automatically have to acknowledge that point items are canon too and not gameplay limited, as she also mentions them in that scene; So is her statement canon or not? Make up your mind on this shit already good lord

You still don't understand what game mechanics is. Spirit power items are objectively providing spirit power in some way, which is an in-universe power source. Yes, the specificities of what spirit power items are and how they work in combat is not elaborated on much in-universe. But this is a case where the gameplay shows in-universe mechanics put into practice.

Something being omnipresent in gameplay/tutorials/manuals but absent in lore is like... the basis for the vast majority of video game character abilities. Like, seriously, go to any video game character page and you'll see what I mean, but since I doubt you'll do that on your own, I'll go ahead and use Sonic as an example (though really, any verse will work). Keep in mind that Touhou's spirit manipulation has an even greater basis in reality than these, since the actual existence of spirit power is mention in-universe many, many times.

-Resurrection: Mentioned in-game, not in lore.
-Healing: In-game, not in lore.
-Durability Negation: In-game, not in lore.
-NPI: In-game, not in lore.
-Damage Reduction: In-game, not in lore.
-Hammerspace: In-game, not in lore.
-Invulnerability Negation: In-game, not in lore.
-Forcefield Creation: In-game, not in lore.
-Fourth Wall Awareness: In-game, not in lore.
-Precognition: In a manual, not in lore.
-Dimensional Travel: In a manual, not in lore.
-Statistics Amplification: In-game, not in lore.
-Energy Manipulation: In a manual, not in lore.
-Reality Warping: Mostly in manuals, only lore justification probably wouldn't be enough for RW on its own.
-Resistance Negation: In-game, not in lore.
-Resistance to Curse Manipulation: In-game, not in lore.
-Resistance to Energy and Electricity: In a manual, not in lore.
-Resistance to Extreme Heat: In-game, not in lore.
-Resistance to Cosmic Radiation: In-game, not in lore.
-Resistance to Acid Manipulation: In manuals, not in lore.
-Transmutation: In-game, not in lore.
-Status Effect Inducement: In-game, not in lore.
-Resistance to Durability Negation: In-game, not in lore.
-Probably a few others I missed.

According to you, all of the above abilities are invalid because the lore does not mention them. God forbid I mention the optional equipment section and how riddled with 'game mechanics' that is.

Verses like Pokemon are arguably even worse in this regard, but my point stands that you are completely and utterly ignoring how the vast majority of video game profiles are written. But if you really want to use this logic, go ahead and try downgrading the Sonic verse on this basis. I've given you all the scans you need, after all. Or, if you're unwilling to do that, then maybe you should admit that the basis of your 'gameplay mechanics' argument has always been faulty. And if not that, then you're just singling out Touhou in this regard for reasons that are beyond me.


No it doesn't??? You can literally run out the timer while playing as the slave, the meter never decreases (gfycat and imgur only allow 60 second videos so you can't see the end, but you can still see that the meter never decreases even once. Go test it yourself if you doubt me). It's only through external input (ie; your opponent beating the shit out of you) that the meter decreases. This is just straight up ******* lying at this point lmao

Also, if you're not absorbing the occult meter, then what's up with the particle effects that fly out of the opponent whenever you hit them that are automatically absorbed by you? Seems like a clear visual indicator of absorption to me.


If their spirit was shared to literally any extent at all, which it is, they wouldn't have completely independent "spirit" bars. They'd have at least some degree of connection, but they obviously don't. I never said they needed to share 100% of their spirit. I accept that spirit power and spirit are the same because there isn't lore contradicting that fact, unlike in this instance.




Aside from, y'know, every single STG where you get hit and drop spirit power. You seem intent on ignoring that. Or AoCF where you absorb spirit power. Or the previous fighters where you reduce your opponent's spirit. PoFV and GFW might also work like this but I need to double check.

Also, the rock thing is just ******* pathetic at this point. You claim that the spirit power stuff is an outlier, yet claim an instance of MFTL+/high 3-A characters getting tagged and harmed by falling rocks is fine. You claim spirit power is game mechanics because it's only shown in gameplay, never in lore, but the rocks are also only in gameplay and not in lore. Do you not realize the massive hypocrisy you're presenting here?

TL;DR: Either take this argument seriously and stop stooping so low, or leave and stop wasting my time on this nonsense. I would prefer to be doing literally anything else than spending several days debunking your headcanons and blatant misinformation.

Sorry for the long wait, gathering over 100 scans takes time y'know.

Very good and detailed coverage here! I think this is pretty bulletproof honestly, lol.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Pretty much

 

[Jinsye]

Mods when I try to get them to read Fujiwara's essay:

Okay but seriously, if you want some of the mods who were in this thread to actually respond, you need to provide a reasonable tldr. Since they won't actually evaluate that argument since it's 25k characters. It's genuinely hard to read at that point, and I don't blame them.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Mods when I try to get them to read Fujiwara's essay:

Okay but seriously, if you want some of the mods who were in this thread to actually respond, you need to provide a reasonable tldr. Since they won't actually evaluate that argument since it's 25k characters. It's genuinely hard to read at that point, and I don't blame them.

As opposed to your 15k character OP, which is clearly reasonable. Considering you were adamantly against splitting your OP, I think you can maybe live with long responses, especially to things as blatantly wrong as Saikou's last response.

Also to be clear, a sizable chunk of the text is just me listing off every instance of NPI in the series I could track down. I'm obviously not expecting anyone to check every single scan, the entire point was to have a comically big list to show how ridiculous it is to claim Touhou characters can't interact with spiritual beings. If 80+ examples is a lot to take in, then good, I've successfully made my point.

 

[Moritzva]

OPs tend to be larger by default as they’re initiating the discussion.

I am all for thorough arguments, but I can see why people with busy lives would struggle to keep up with 25k-character arguments. A short summary at the end could help, but if the full text is filled with actual arguments and not filler, there’s nothing inherently wrong with that either. Debate is an art form of details, after all.

And by summary I don’t mean telling the opponent to “stop stooping so low”, that definitely does qualify as filler. Cut all that out, the post is long enough as it is.

 

[Roachman40]

bump

 

[StrymULTRA]

bump

W H Y ?

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

W H Y ?

Damn you.


So can we get tier 1 2hu?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

STOP

BUMPING

THE

*******

THREAD

So can we get tier 1 2hu?

Yes. Eventually. There are more important things that need to be worked on besides funny big number.

 

[Shmooply]

I will maim anyone that attempts to make a tier 1 thread before we get the hax and other shenanigans sorted out.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

We should also uh. Probably decide on why the verse should be tier 1. Because everyone I've talked to on the matter has a different take on it.

Anyways, this will hopefully be my last post in this god forsaken thread.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Can't stop me.

This is a respond to making a tier 1 CRT or the bumping thread is a secret.

 

[Shmooply]

Can't stop me.

This is a respond to making a tier 1 CRT or the bumping thread is a secret.